| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Antareana |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 03:29:22
I have just a little question for my fellow scribes out there:
What happened that the relationship between Bane and Mystra became so... complicated?
It must have something to do with the first Mystra, but I just don't get it. Bane was LE and Mystra LN, so no problem alignment wise. There was no opposition in their portfolios... neither did Bane do something against the spreading and using of magic nor did Mystra do anything against ambitious and fearsome Tyrants.
The only reason that comes to my mind would be Mystra's chosen, but... it seems a little funny to me that chosen do have that much influence on a god's relationship to other gods.
Or was Mystra not that LN at all?  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 15 Jul 2005 : 11:37:52
Sorry but I think I may have missed something  .
I thought I was pretty up to date with the current lore but I have heard nothing about a conflict between Bane and Mystra until this thread. I know they don't exactly like each other, I mean really, who does Bane really get along with?
Has it been mentioned in a Novel or Sourcebook that the two deities are ready to square off? |
| silvermage |
Posted - 15 Jul 2005 : 06:53:50
quote:
Originally posted by Tylas
quote:
Originally posted by FreezeChaser
If Bane is smart enough, he will sure be aware of Shar's long term plans as after all they are in the same pantheon. Still, Bane is likely to preach and gain more followers to strengthen himself and also strengthen his followers for war with Shar and her followers. So we can expect a fight between the Banites of the Zhentarim(if they are any still following Bane)and the worshippers of Shar such as the Shadovar and her sorcerer monks followers.
So it appears that the Shadovar and Shar followers have an inexhaustible supply of enemies to fight- such as the Selunites, Mystra followers, Harpers, anybody who is anti-Shar and now Banites adding in to the list of foes.
Because of Shar's ideals and dogma, that's why Shar and her followers are that unpopular in the Realms. |
| Tylas |
Posted - 15 Jul 2005 : 06:49:27
quote:
Originally posted by FreezeChaser
If Bane is smart enough, he will sure be aware of Shar's long term plans as after all they are in the same pantheon. Still, Bane is likely to preach and gain more followers to strengthen himself and also strengthen his followers for war with Shar and her followers. So we can expect a fight between the Banites of the Zhentarim(if they are any still following Bane)and the worshippers of Shar such as the Shadovar and her sorcerer monks followers.
So it appears that the Shadovar and Shar followers have an inexhaustible supply of enemies to fight- such as the Selunites, Mystra followers, Harpers, anybody who is anti-Shar and now Banites adding in to the list of foes. |
| FreezeChaser |
Posted - 15 Jul 2005 : 06:45:47
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It depends... She might go to war immediately (a shadow war, if you will, followers versus followers), or she might ally with him to take out some other deities before turning on him. Keep in mind that Shar's ultimate goal is the destruction of everything -- which will include both magic and everything that Bane wants to be tyrant over.
So it seems that there might be an alliance of convenience between Bane and Shar or war between them two. Still....I wonder will Bane be aware of the threat Shar and her goals posed to him and his long term plans if he assumes Mystra's portfolio, will he immediately wage war or sit and wait to see how the situation goes.
If Bane is smart enough, he will sure be aware of Shar's long term plans as after all they are in the same pantheon. Still, Bane is likely to preach and gain more followers to strengthen himself and also strengthen his followers for war with Shar and her followers. So we can expect a fight between the Banites of the Zhentarim(if they are any still following Bane)and the worshippers of Shar such as the Shadovar and her sorcerer monks followers. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 15 Jul 2005 : 05:54:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It depends... She might go to war immediately (a shadow war, if you will, followers versus followers), or she might ally with him to take out some other deities before turning on him. Keep in mind that Shar's ultimate goal is the destruction of everything -- which will include both magic and everything that Bane wants to be tyrant over.
So it seems that there might be an alliance of convenience between Bane and Shar or war between them two. Still....I wonder will Bane be aware of the threat Shar and her goals posed to him and his long term plans if he assumes Mystra's portfolio, will he immediately wage war or sit and wait to see how the situation goes. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Jul 2005 : 02:23:44
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Wait, pardon my asking, if Bane takes over Mystra's place, then will this event be in favor of Shar? Afterall, Shar had been planning to go to war against Mystra but if Bane takes over Mystra's portfolio, will Shar plan peace with Bane or go ahead with her war plans against the new God of Magic?
It depends... She might go to war immediately (a shadow war, if you will, followers versus followers), or she might ally with him to take out some other deities before turning on him. Keep in mind that Shar's ultimate goal is the destruction of everything -- which will include both magic and everything that Bane wants to be tyrant over. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 15 Jul 2005 : 01:22:06
Wait, pardon my asking, if Bane takes over Mystra's place, then will this event be in favor of Shar? Afterall, Shar had been planning to go to war against Mystra but if Bane takes over Mystra's portfolio, will Shar plan peace with Bane or go ahead with her war plans against the new God of Magic? |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 15 Jul 2005 : 01:17:36
quote:
Originally posted by Antareana
Hm, hm, good to know, dear Lady Hooded 
so we need to look at the "small" differences between the "chosen" of each deity. Since Ed said that Bane wouldn't give away parts of his essence (and I can easily understand why ) , that would make Fzoul more a "special favored" of Bane. But then there is the question which "chosen" are like Mystra's and which more like Bane's. Difficult matter...
and regarding bane taking over Mystra's portfolio... would he really want it? having to act like he would never want to (i.e. giving magic away freely, working in the weave all the time, risking Aos "anger" if he doesn't do so, having to get along with the chosen, accepting the balance of magic) wouldn't it be too much a burden? Wouldn't it either destroy Bane's Tyrant-mind or his believability? Sure, it is a great amount of power, but at which price?
Just my thoughts ^^
I suspect Bane will work to twist the rules placed upon him to his favor while pretending to follow Ao orders. |
| Antareana |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 16:01:23
Hm, hm, good to know, dear Lady Hooded
so we need to look at the "small" differences between the "chosen" of each deity. Since Ed said that Bane wouldn't give away parts of his essence (and I can easily understand why ) , that would make Fzoul more a "special favored" of Bane. But then there is the question which "chosen" are like Mystra's and which more like Bane's. Difficult matter...
and regarding bane taking over Mystra's portfolio... would he really want it? having to act like he would never want to (i.e. giving magic away freely, working in the weave all the time, risking Aos "anger" if he doesn't do so, having to get along with the chosen, accepting the balance of magic) wouldn't it be too much a burden? Wouldn't it either destroy Bane's Tyrant-mind or his believability? Sure, it is a great amount of power, but at which price?
Just my thoughts ^^ |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 06:30:03
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Vengeance
So will this war between Mystra and Bane going to happen? It seems their hatred of each other going to boil over soon.
This may mean Banites and Mytra's followers going to war against each other as well. But one way to eliminate the other deity is to kill the deity followers and weaken the deity. But such a war between Mystra and Bane would be interesting to watch. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 06:22:51
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Still, I think Ao would not allow Bane to remove the powers of the current Chosen, as imagine what happens if the power falls into insidious folk like Sammaster.
Well, as it's been stated, Bane couldn't. Even Mystra has a hard time taking her power back from her Chosen. To quote the lovely Lady Hooded One:
quote:
Ed’s reply does indeed “imply that once a being becomes a Chosen, Mystra can't reclaim from that person her own essence.” You point out that “that's exactly what is described as having happened to Sammaster: thru Azuth, Mystra's essence was removed from Sammaster.”
EXACTLY. Sammaster’s silver fire was taken through the actions of Azuth, another deity.
Mystra can forcibly wrest her divine essence (the silver fire) directly from a mortal, but in doing so loses it forever, weakening herself (it does not ‘find its way back to her’ in the normal way, but is GONE). So she won’t do it.
That doesn’t stop Azuth, working with her, from doing it (she’d probably fight any other deity trying it on a mortal located on Toril, and win by using the Weave against them).
|
| Sir Vengeance |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 06:20:38
So will this war between Mystra and Bane going to happen? It seems their hatred of each other going to boil over soon. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 05:12:24
Surely If Bane ascends as the next God Of Magic, he will definitely has to submit to the demands and the will of Lord Ao. I think Lord Ao will force Bane to accept some changes so as to maintain the Balance and ensure Bane's power and even Bane himself would never be a great threat to the Balance, the other deities and Ao himself like what happened to Mystra where Her Chosen were appointed to "store away" some of her powers.
Still, I think Ao would not allow Bane to remove the powers of the current Chosen, as imagine what happens if the power falls into insidious folk like Sammaster. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 04:00:30
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Ok if thats the case
Would that mean that Any chosen of deity who dies would keep their powers?
So if Bhaal, Mykrul and Leira had chosen before they died then these same Chosen would still have their powers after after there gods died?
If so cool Ive got an idea for an NPC "Former" Chosen of Leira
Well, as I pointed out, we had little pieces of Bane around while he wasn't. I can't see any reason why a dead deity can't have something like a Chosen still hanging out. Heck, Shuruppak is still a force to be reckoned with... |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 02:22:48
It would likely work if in your Realms all of the Chosen work like Mystra's. I am still of the opinion that the term Chosen is used for a lot of godly servants that aren't servants in the "Chosen of Mystra" sense, but rather have some extra powers granted to them becuase their god wants them to have some "extra umph" to perform this or that mission, which would not be the same as them giving up part of their essense to bond with their Chosen (as THO pointed out, Bane by his nature couldn't give of himself to make Fzoul "part" of him).
Still, if that is how you run things, Leira most likely has a better shot at giving of herself to create a Mystra like chosen than Bane does. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 02:16:46
Ok if thats the case
Would that mean that Any chosen of deity who dies would keep their powers?
So if Bhaal, Mykrul and Leira had chosen before they died then these same Chosen would still have their powers after after there gods died?
If so cool Ive got an idea for an NPC "Former" Chosen of Leira |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 00:48:38
Ed of the Greenwood saith:
Mystra sacrificed some of her power forever (losing Sammaster’s portion of her essence) when she acted against Sammaster.
It’s against Bane’s essential nature to relinquish anything, and the sacrifice is not a choice available to him: he CAN’T “seize” the portions of Mystra’s essence within each Chosen, or strip them of their Chosen status.
He can destroy them, in direct combat, if he manages to catch them in the right situation.
However, note that “right situation” phrase. All of the present Chosen are well-versed in the Weave, and can “flee through it.” If Bane tries to hunt them down and destroy them through the Weave, he’ll do so much damage to it and to his own control over magic that it will rapidly become apparent to him just how much “not worth it” destroying any of the Chosen is.
And as Melfius has quite properly pointed out, neither Ao nor any of the other gods of Faerûn would allow any “Tyrant of the Weave” to exist. Bane can’t stand for long against any two greater deities, let alone any more numerous combination of them.
Asgetrion is correct in saying that Bane would try to become a Tyrant over the Weave, controlling it absolutely; his essential nature forces him to do so.
Shadovar, Bane cannot succeed in becoming Tyrant of the Weave. The Chosen won’t accept him, and he can’t remove their powers. He can destroy them, if he attempts their destructions in the right manner. Azuth will resist him utterly (he’s god of spellcasters who achieve mastery over magic through their experimentations and research, and can’t accept a tyrant who would end or attempt to control that process) but “rebel” is the wrong word, because Bane won’t be “the new god of magic.”
Dargoth, the Chosen are linked to the Weave. They can die as mortal bodies, and they can be destroyed, but if they have the opportunity to “sink into the Weave,” they can all become as Syluné and now Shandril are: “spirits” of the Weave.
So saith Ed. Not that Bane eliminating Mystra tomorrow is likely. He’s been burned with the previous Mystra, and prefers to dominate daily life in human societies in the Realms, where he can exult in being a tyrant.
However, when I put this to Ed, he e-twinkled and replied: “Remember how I keep reminding you there are secrets about the gods I haven’t divulged yet, and can’t just yet? Let’s just say most of these discussions about what god could or would do what to which other god are just what they tend to be in the real world: so many futile words exchanged between mortals who can never know the truth. Now, back to home sweet mud hut and let’s all have dinner.”
So there you have it: Ed’s take on the matter.
love to all,
THO
|
| Dargoth |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 23:23:25
It didnt stop Mystra 1.0 from pulling Sammasters chosen status
So Id say a god pull chosen status when ever they want.
The Bane Liches and Crown Horns arent chosen, they stored their gods power because the god choose to retreat there |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 22:34:33
Indeed. Bane would either have to drop a couple portfolios, pledge neutrality in regards to magic use, or wind up as one of three deities of magic, like what Krynn has. |
| Melfius |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 19:43:45
Regardless of who holds the protfolio, things would not change much at all. Ao will step in and make sure that whomever runs the portfolio does not upset the status quo. And he would have the full backing of just about all of the rest of the pantheon. Magic is too important, hence the requirement for Chosen. No deity could successfully play Tyrant of Magic. Not for long, anyways.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 17:20:55
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I was going off the old Grey box set that says Elminster is around 800 years old
In any case if Bane where to pull the "Chosen life support" all of Mystras chosen would die (possiably with excpetion of Sylune as shes Undead)
I'm not sure he could do that. Their power is part of her essence. As we saw with Baneliches while Bane was dead, a deity can be gone and their portfolio in someone else's hands without affecting remaining bits of that divine essence.
Another example of this is that imprisoned bit of Moander in the Darkwatch.
A similar example is Myrkul and the bit of his essence he stuck in the Crown of Horns. He's not dead, but he's lost his portfolio. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 15:06:37
Azuth might be Lawful neutral, but he was a friend and lover of the Old Mystra, and he is the trusted advisor and instructor of the current Mystra, so I doubt that Azuth would work will with Bane if ever he gained Mystra's portfolio. I don't know enough about Savras, but Velsharoon is a petty little mercenary so I'm sure he would transfer his allegience.
Now, as to if Bane actually could get the portfolio . . . Its not a matter of alignment. I have a hard time thinking that a Lawful evil god would be able to be open to teaching magic to all that have the talent, but it is possible. But Bane has a lot of responsibilities, and the god of Magic is a special position within the pantheon, one that may not allow for other portfolios. |
| RedStrike |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 07:30:23
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Thanks to all who replied to my questions, but what about the deities that formerly served Mystra such as Azuth, will Azuth accept Bane as the New god of magic and serve him like he served Mystra?
It is unlikely Azuth will serve bane despite bane's status as the new god of magic, given that both have different alignments. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 06:48:05
Thanks to all who replied to my questions, but what about the deities that formerly served Mystra such as Azuth, will Azuth accept Bane as the New god of magic and serve him like he served Mystra? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 01:54:50
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I was going off the old Grey box set that says Elminster is around 800 years old
Elminster entered Cormanthor around 241 DR. We can assume that he was in his mid 20's or very early 30's by that point, so that would throw his birth year to around 220's-210's DR. Using that as a base, Elminster is 1,133+ years old.
He may have even been a little younger than that again...
|
| Dargoth |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 00:08:44
I was going off the old Grey box set that says Elminster is around 800 years old
In any case if Bane where to pull the "Chosen life support" all of Mystras chosen would die (possiably with excpetion of Sylune as shes Undead) |
| Kuje |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 22:34:29
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Elminster is around 800-900 years old, Backstaffs probably around 500 years old and most of the seven sisters would around 300 years old. All of them are way older than the 100-120 years a Humans suppose to live to
Elminster is over 1200 actually. Khelben was born in 414 so he's 960. The Seven Sister's are older then 300 since Laeral, being the fifth sister, is 609 since she was born in 765. |
| ode904 |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 21:47:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Elminster is around 800-900 years old, Backstaffs probably around 500 years old and most of the seven sisters would around 300 years old. All of them are way older than the 100-120 years a Humans suppose to live to
Khelben is a lot older than that. I think he was in Myth Drannor before the mythal was raised.
Yes. You can add a lot more years to Elminster's age. And I think that Khelben is 600-700.
But that was A LITTLE OUT OF TOPIC
Just had to answer.. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 17:12:20
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Elminster is around 800-900 years old, Backstaffs probably around 500 years old and most of the seven sisters would around 300 years old. All of them are way older than the 100-120 years a Humans suppose to live to
Khelben is a lot older than that. I think he was in Myth Drannor before the mythal was raised. |
| Sir Luther Cromwell |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 16:05:44
Sings the song of Netheril
There once was a man
who reached for the heaven
that is our lady magic
And so he stands as Stone
One must not forget why our lady Mystra is here. The last time someone tried to up set the balance of the world, the late goddess of magic Mystryl sacrificed herself. And so, the desert/crater of Anauroch is a constant reminder that there must be balance in the world, or else it shall laspe into nothingness. Mystra's purpose is to maintain that balance.
Consider Bane, a tyrant in every right, recently born through the body of Xvim. It takes not a sage to figure that Bane wants conquest of magic. But that's exactly why he must kill Mystra. Mystra herself is responsible for ensuring that magic itself is never unbalanced. For Bane to control too much magic would upset everything, and so their goals are opposite.
sings
Where once the was one Xvim
The now stands the tyrant Bane
From Zhentil keep his prowls for power
For the north it shall come, pray for thee |
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