| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 03:24:21
My list of complaints with WOTC product range continues to grow it would seem
First we dont get any maps in Serpent Kingdoms and only one in LEOF
Then we get slogged with WOTC cutting 32 pages out of the book (you'll stick pay the same amount as a 192 page book, which basicly makes it a price increase by stealth)
Then they stick ads on 3 of the remaining 160 pages in CoR (and apparently CoS)
Now Ive just read over at Enworld that the physical quality of DMG2 and CoS books has dropped (ie bad binding and an increase in the Print size)
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Krafus |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 17:24:31
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
The more pennies they pinch, the more money they make. I want them to be successful. If they can increase their profit margin substantially by reducing the page count by two pages, or replacing the last two pages with ads, then so be it. I don't make any claims to be an advertising or marketing expert, so I'll leave that to the pros. All I can say is that I love every Realms product that has been released since 3ed, these are beautiful books created by folks who truly love the setting. They contain beautiful artwork (for the most part,) great content, they are well edited, well made (I have never had any problems with any of my books tearing up,) and well designed. I can't think of a better way to spend $30 than on a Realms sourcebook.
But as Dargoth pointed out in his post that started this thread, WotC basically cut out 32 pages from one sourcebook to another while asking customers to pay the same price. Customers are basically paying the same price for less. |
| Xysma |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 14:36:34
The more pennies they pinch, the more money they make. I want them to be successful. If they can increase their profit margin substantially by reducing the page count by two pages, or replacing the last two pages with ads, then so be it. I don't make any claims to be an advertising or marketing expert, so I'll leave that to the pros. All I can say is that I love every Realms product that has been released since 3ed, these are beautiful books created by folks who truly love the setting. They contain beautiful artwork (for the most part,) great content, they are well edited, well made (I have never had any problems with any of my books tearing up,) and well designed. I can't think of a better way to spend $30 than on a Realms sourcebook. |
| David Lázaro |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 03:24:12
Thank you, interesting answer.
I'll try to search for more info on the art of binding. Maybe with the proper glues and techniques I can get my Silver Marches copy back into shape. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 03:03:19
quote:
Originally posted by David Lázaro
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I've even got a third-hand copy of the original UA that was slightly damaged, which through careful attention, I've managed to keep from deteriorating any further.
My copy of Unearthed Arcana is strong as a rock but, could you develop more on what did you do in order to fix the book?
I'll be interested in some way of fixing my Silver Marches copy, some pages will fall soon.
For the most part, all I've done is ensure that every time I use UA, I handle it with the utmost care. In addition, there's a book-binder in my family, so when I originally picked UA up, I handed it over to her expert hands. She reinforced the binding, and re-attached the front and back covers which were slowly tearing off. She also covered the front and back covers in a special plastic which keeps them intact.
So, this work, coupled with my paying extra attention to the binding and its pages every time I open the tome, has ensured that it has not gotten any worse since the day I purchased it.
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| David Lázaro |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 02:22:19
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I've even got a third-hand copy of the original UA that was slightly damaged, which through careful attention, I've managed to keep from deteriorating any further.
My copy of Unearthed Arcana is strong as a rock but, could you develop more on what did you do in order to fix the book?
I'll be interested in some way of fixing my Silver Marches copy, some pages will fall soon. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 04:28:48
I said it a long time ago. Stop with the unnecessary glossy paper, get rid of the expensive color backgrounds, and just give use HIGH QUALITY MATERIAL. It could be bound with staples and paper clips as long as the source material inside of it is top notch and well edited.
It isn't top notch and I'm still paying top color for colorful art books, and that's what they are, artbooks, I don't want.
Yes Draconomicon was great and it was justified, but I don't think it's necessary in every product.
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| Grunker |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 18:21:52
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Or going back to simple black and white, like most of the artwork in 1E or 2E.
To tell you the truth, I preferred that. Colourful images are all well and good, but those simple black and white drawings gave the 1e/2e sourcebooks a feeling that you were actually reading about some long forgotten place in a land far away -- to put it simply, they gave me the impression that these places I was reading about were actually "real".
The coloured images subtract from that impression. While they may have originally been intended to add more realism to a sourcebook, for me they've had the opposite effect.
Yea. Look at the picture of Szass Tam in FR Campaign from 3rd Edition. I always thought that was incredible artwork. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 14:29:32
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
And just to show it is D&D wide, they did the same thing to Eberron.. poor folks never even got a huge map witha book! 
That's not entirely true. While Eberron fans didn't receive a map with the CSB, we were treated to a slightly detailed map of Khorvaire last year in and issue of Dragon.
Yes, but I think his original point is still valid. Getting that Eberron map meant purchasing that issue of Dragon. Thus, more money to get something I'm sure many felt should have just been included in an Eberron product.
True. I forgot to add however, that the ECBS did actually have a full map of Khorvaire. It's located on the backs of both the front and rear covers of the setting tome  . It's just not very detailed...
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| Krafus |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 14:07:26
The map that should have been in the Eberron CSB wasn't just expected, it was mandatory. Shame on WotC. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 11:42:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
And just to show it is D&D wide, they did the same thing to Eberron.. poor folks never even got a huge map witha book!
That's not entirely true. While Eberron fans didn't receive a map with the CSB, we were treated to a slightly detailed map of Khorvaire last year in and issue of Dragon.
Yes, but I think his original point is still valid. Getting that Eberron map meant purchasing that issue of Dragon. Thus, more money to get something I'm sure many felt should have just been included in an Eberron product. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 04:23:24
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Well met
My word, a little heated herein. Please avoid any personal attacks, especially to those who are, one way or another, involved in, past or present, our beloved hobby.
Apologies for my late arrival, im currently stuck in a land known as Morocco  These quills certainly are difficult to use as well
If you see a severed Monkeys hands in a market over in Morocco buy it and Wish for a return to the 192 page source books! 
You must really dislike Alaundo, bring that curse upon him   |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 02:23:15
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
And just to show it is D&D wide, they did the same thing to Eberron.. poor folks never even got a huge map witha book!
That's not entirely true. While Eberron fans didn't receive a map with the CSB, we were treated to a slightly detailed map of Khorvaire last year in and issue of Dragon.
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| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 22:37:33
I think my main problem with the line is now the complete lack of fold out maps. I know they last longer if you can keep them in the books, but I thought the one included with Silver Marches was brilliant. I even went and bought all those Dragons with the mammoth map of FR. It's just handy for the players if you're running the game to spread out a map in front of them instead of trying to angle your book just right for them.
Oh well, this was for sure brought up before, but I think it is an issue the makers of D&D products should continually be aware of. And just to show it is D&D wide, they did the same thing to Eberron.. poor folks never even got a huge map witha book!
C-Fb |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 22:33:14
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Well met
My word, a little heated herein. Please avoid any personal attacks, especially to those who are, one way or another, involved in, past or present, our beloved hobby.
Apologies for my late arrival, im currently stuck in a land known as Morocco These quills certainly are difficult to use as well
If you see a severed Monkeys hands in a market over in Morocco buy it and Wish for a return to the 192 page source books!
Yeah, but those things aren't terribly reliable... We're like to get the extra pages, but it'd all be ads..  |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 22:21:41
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Well met
My word, a little heated herein. Please avoid any personal attacks, especially to those who are, one way or another, involved in, past or present, our beloved hobby.
Apologies for my late arrival, im currently stuck in a land known as Morocco These quills certainly are difficult to use as well
If you see a severed Monkeys hands in a market over in Morocco buy it and Wish for a return to the 192 page source books! |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 21:21:52
quote:
That was a good one. I salute you!
Oh, don´t mention it, Master Hamster! I think that I´m a dwarf with more than just a little of pixie blood in my veins...  May I add indexes in Ubtao´s portfolio??
Chosen of Moradin, losing control of his mind (again)... |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 20:23:32
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Apologies for my late arrival, im currently stuck in a land known as Morocco These quills certainly are difficult to use as well
On holiday or just took the wrong connecting flight? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 17:09:05
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
quote:
Indexes seem to be going the way of the dinosaur...
They are going to Chult???
Sorry, I don´t resist to do this...
That was a good one. I salute you! |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 16:44:20
Well met
My word, a little heated herein. Please avoid any personal attacks, especially to those who are, one way or another, involved in, past or present, our beloved hobby.
Apologies for my late arrival, im currently stuck in a land known as Morocco These quills certainly are difficult to use as well |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 13:25:02
quote:
Indexes seem to be going the way of the dinosaur...
They are going to Chult???
Sorry, I don´t resist to do this... |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 13:07:04
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Those valuable pages should be filled with content, or better yet Indexes.
Indexes seem to be going the way of the dinosaur... |
| warlockco |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 03:20:39
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Setepsutekh
I have retracted my comment about Mr Adkinson and in response to Sean's post I have emailed him privately to resolve the arguement.
Thanks for taking it private. I and I'm sure others appreciate that mature move.
SB
<hides the popcorn and drinks>
One thing that has me a bit irritated is the 2-3 pages of "spam" in the back of the books lately. Those valuable pages should be filled with content, or better yet Indexes. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 01:59:00
quote:
Originally posted by Setepsutekh
I have retracted my comment about Mr Adkinson and in response to Sean's post I have emailed him privately to resolve the arguement.
Thanks for taking it private. I and I'm sure others appreciate that mature move.
SB |
| seankreynolds |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 20:27:32
First, let me apologize for coming down so hard on Setepsutekh; I guess I'm feeling a little defensive.
{Er - no offense to you, Mr. Reynolds, or Peter Adkinson, but if Hasbro had a known track record of, as you put it, squeezing companies they buy for money and then dumping them when they're dry, then why did he sell WotC to them in the first place?}
Perhaps because he felt that D&D and Magic were valuable enough and long-lasting enough that Hasbro (1) would continue to make money on them year after year, and therefore (2) wouldn't have any need to squeze them. Note that Hasbro has owned WotC for 6-7 years now and WotC is still making huge amounts of money for the company, a sign that Peter knew what he was doing.
Examples of squeezed companies: Galoob, The Learning Company. |
| Setepsutekh |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 20:27:25
I have retracted my comment about Mr Adkinson and in response to Sean's post I have emailed him privately to resolve the arguement. Peter did do a excellent job of salvaging D&D from TSR and I'm very happy he did such a brilliant service to the D&D community.
Now I hope the thread will get back to the topic in question as we scribes of Candlekeep know that arguements (and that sort of thing) belong on the "Boards that shall not be Named!"  . |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 19:09:20
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
Er - no offense to you, Mr. Reynolds, or Peter Adkinson, but if Hasbro had a known track record of, as you put it, squeezing companies they buy for money and then dumping them when they're dry, then why did he sell WotC to them in the first place?
Hasbro has a history of buying failing companies and parting them out. Which is what would have happened quicker and to a far greater degree, if Peter Adkinson had not turned TSR/D&D around from "trouble with the printers". The fact the D&D is still a brand name for Hasbro and product is still being put out for gamers is a reflection of this.
Was it a bad idea to sell, perhaps though as CEO the first duty was to the share holders not the product itself. |
| Krafus |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 18:48:25
quote:
Originally posted by seankreynolds
{I don't know about the rest of you but I think Peter Adkinson should be dumped in the Abyss for selling WotC to Hasbro, now things will definately be more about money.}
You don't know what you're talking about.
WotC, like any business, is always about making money.
Peter is just one of several people whose shares in the company totally the necessary 51% to make the decision to sell. He wanted what was best for the shareholders, but at the same time he loves games.
After the sale, Peter was made a regional director for Hasbro. Later, Hasbro decided to sell all D&D software rights to Infogrames/Atari for an incredibly cheap sum. Peter objected, as he know those licenses were far more valuable than what the Hasbro board was selling them for. He was outvoted. Peter realized he no longer could control and protect the game he loved. He resigned. He still wanted to be involved in the game industry, so he bought Gen Con.
Peter doesn't deserve to burn in the Abyss. (And who the hell are you to consign him to such a thing? What have you done to save D&D?)
Peter saved TSR, and in doing so saved D&D. He gave a lot of people a good job and made them (including me, and many of the people whose work on FR you respect, including Steven Schend and Ed Greenwood) a good amount of money. He thought selling to Hasbro was a good idea, and it turns out it wasn't, and hindsight is 20/20, but you can't punish him for something he didn't know at the time.
If it wasn't for Peter, TSR would have gone out of business and Hasbro would have bought the scraps. There wouldn't really be D&D any more because it would just be mass-produced crap annual products like Monopoly. No creativity, no involvement from Ed or Steven or Salvatore or anyone. Peter buying TSR gave TSR/D&D time to prove itself a valuable asset to the company rather than something you squeeze for money and dump when it's dry (which Hasbro has done many times with other companies).
So watch your mouth when you don't know what you're talking about.
Er - no offense to you, Mr. Reynolds, or Peter Adkinson, but if Hasbro had a known track record of, as you put it, squeezing companies they buy for money and then dumping them when they're dry, then why did he sell WotC to them in the first place? |
| seankreynolds |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 18:07:13
{I don't know about the rest of you but I think Peter Adkinson should be dumped in the Abyss for selling WotC to Hasbro, now things will definately be more about money.}
You don't know what you're talking about.
WotC, like any business, is always about making money.
Peter is just one of several people whose shares in the company totally the necessary 51% to make the decision to sell. He wanted what was best for the shareholders, but at the same time he loves games.
After the sale, Peter was made a regional director for Hasbro. Later, Hasbro decided to sell all D&D software rights to Infogrames/Atari for an incredibly cheap sum. Peter objected, as he know those licenses were far more valuable than what the Hasbro board was selling them for. He was outvoted. Peter realized he no longer could control and protect the game he loved. He resigned. He still wanted to be involved in the game industry, so he bought Gen Con.
Peter doesn't deserve to burn in the Abyss. (And who the hell are you to consign him to such a thing? What have you done to save D&D?)
Peter saved TSR, and in doing so saved D&D. He gave a lot of people a good job and made them (including me, and many of the people whose work on FR you respect, including Steven Schend and Ed Greenwood) a good amount of money. He thought selling to Hasbro was a good idea, and it turns out it wasn't, and hindsight is 20/20, but you can't punish him for something he didn't know at the time.
If it wasn't for Peter, TSR would have gone out of business and Hasbro would have bought the scraps. There wouldn't really be D&D any more because it would just be mass-produced crap annual products like Monopoly. No creativity, no involvement from Ed or Steven or Salvatore or anyone. Peter buying TSR gave TSR/D&D time to prove itself a valuable asset to the company rather than something you squeeze for money and dump when it's dry (which Hasbro has done many times with other companies).
So watch your mouth when you don't know what you're talking about. |
| Setepsutekh |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 17:44:55
, I make my judgement on what I know of that event. WotC in imo would be better off without Hasbro leaning over it's shoulder whenever it does something. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 02:29:53
quote:
Originally posted by Setepsutekh
I don't know about the rest of you but I think Peter Adkinson should be dumped in the Abyss for selling WotC to Hasbro, now things will definately be more about money.
I'll not consign anyone to the Abyss until I know their offenses. Except for slow drivers -- driving under the speed limit in the left lane is offense enough to land someone in one of the less-pleasant places in the Lower Planes. |
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