| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 02:42:45
Alright, I have read the Time of Troubles series and think I have a pretty good grasp on how it all works in terms of faithless and false but I have a few thoughts that I'm not sure on.
As Ed has stated before, the vast majority people in Faerun don't have one patron deity. Instead they say a prayer to Umberlee when sailing, Chauntea when farming, Malar when hunting, Tymora when luck is needed etc....
So, are these people considered faithless, false, or something completely different? They have faith, they pray to deities when they need something so I don't think faithless would be appropriate. Where do these folk's souls go when they die, to Kelemvor? If so than I would guess that the realm of the dead is overflowing far more than any other plane.
Another thought. Deities gain their strength by the number of followers they have. So does this mean the total number of people that choose them as a patron, the number of people to say prayers to them even periodically, or the number of people that live according to their dogma/portfolios.
I like to think of it that if somebody lives their life in the way a deity would want then that person strengthen that deity and his soul would go to that deity's plane after he dies. For example, if a person is completely consumed by hate, I mean hates everyone around him and instills fear in those around him I think that should strengthen Bane even if the person doesn't say prayers to the Black Lord. Also, wouldn't Bane want that soul after he dies since the person would fit in so well in Bane's realm?
That's probably not the official way it works but I would like some clarification please.
So, short summary of my questions....
1) What happens to the souls of those who pay homage to multiple deities?
2) Does living by a Deity's dogma/portfolios strengthen that deity even if you do not worship him?
3) Will a deity take a soul into their realm if the person lived a life according to the deity's beliefs even if they did not worship that particular deity? |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 03:16:58
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
(I have hear something that Cara might be a future choosen of Mystra, But I'm not sure where.)
Lol
Oh the Irony
Caras Grand father was a Paladin of Tyr who had a son (Caras father) who became a Cleric Of Cyric... the son has a Daughter (Cara) who one day becomes a chosen of Mystra *Chuckle* I wonder if this will mean that Cara will one day have a child who becomes a Cleric or Follower of Shar! 
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| Foxhelm |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 02:01:17
Well, I have an interesting thing to add. In the novel Thornhold by Elaine Cunningham, Bronwen (The heroine) talks to her half elven neice, Cara, about gods. Cara brings up the gods. Bronwen mentions that her patron diety is Tymora, explain Lady Luck's ways and suggest that Tymora might make a god patron for Cara. Cara mentions that she doesn't think so due to something in her SOUL telling her that her patron is another god.
(I have hear something that Cara might be a future choosen of Mystra, But I'm not sure where.)
Also the FRCS optional rules says that the Patron god can be choosen at the moment of death. The only limit is that the god would have to be connected to the character and the way he was played. (IT also mentioned not penaltizing a character for not make the choice at the moment of creation.
Just a couple of points. |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 15:06:26
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I think it is important to note that just having true faith in a particular deity is simply NOT enough. That faith must be maintained and it must be a devotion adhered to for the person's entire lifetime -- up until the point of body death and their souls pass onto the Fugue Plane.
I can't agree with this. We have had cases of people in the Realms -- even clerics -- who worshipped or served one deity, and later decided to switch deities. And then there's been the whole mess with Cyric and the Dead Three Two...
I realise that. It's just a prospect that I've never been comfortable with exploring in my campaigns.
I think then, in that case, it would all depend upon the strength of which faith the cleric has devoted him- or- herself to.
Indeed we had the case of Adon of Sune, alson known as Adon of Mystra, it would be expectable that he ended in the plane of Mystra cause is shown how his faith changed, i'm of this same opinion, the deity that was most important for the death one would be the one to take the soul. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Apr 2005 : 05:02:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I think it is important to note that just having true faith in a particular deity is simply NOT enough. That faith must be maintained and it must be a devotion adhered to for the person's entire lifetime -- up until the point of body death and their souls pass onto the Fugue Plane.
I can't agree with this. We have had cases of people in the Realms -- even clerics -- who worshipped or served one deity, and later decided to switch deities. And then there's been the whole mess with Cyric and the Dead Three Two...
I realise that. It's just a prospect that I've never been comfortable with exploring in my campaigns.
I think then, in that case, it would all depend upon the strength of which faith the cleric has devoted him- or- herself to.
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| Gerath Hoan |
Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 20:32:02
It seems to me there's two levels on which you can answer these kinds of questions about the deities and the afterlife.
The first and most obvious level is to answer it in game terms, using what we learn of the Afterlife from the 3.0 FRCS and PGTF. This is a very mechanistic method for determining precisely what happens to person X when they die, because they worshipped God Y and only placated God Z.
The second level is the story level... We're dealing with GODS here people, and i think pretty much anything can happen. The categories of Faithless and False are rigid and set in stone (to a certain extent, barring Kelemvor's whim). If you refuse to accept the gods, you're Faithless and if you fake some kind of religous faith you don't feel, you're False. Everything else is shades of grey, and any god who might have a claim on you is going to be at least a little interested in presenting their case on the fugue plane. More petitioners = more power for a god's realm on it's home plane. I'm sure things aren't so cut and dried. Ed himself (in answer to some similar questions about the polytheistic nature of the Realms) told us that even the individual concerned might have no idea which god his soul will go to. So make of that what you will.
Ultimately i like to relax the whole 3.x Patron Deity system somewhat to try and emphasise polytheism in the Realms. Whilst i'm in general agreement with the two-step rule for Clerics, i'm willing to accept exceptions to the rule. And i don't feel there's anything holding other character classes to follow that rule (apart from Paladins and the like, of course). Also, i think the rule that True Neutral clerics can only worship True Neutral deities is a bit pointless.
GH |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 18:00:47
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I think it is important to note that just having true faith in a particular deity is simply NOT enough. That faith must be maintained and it must be a devotion adhered to for the person's entire lifetime -- up until the point of body death and their souls pass onto the Fugue Plane.
I can't agree with this. We have had cases of people in the Realms -- even clerics -- who worshipped or served one deity, and later decided to switch deities. And then there's been the whole mess with Cyric and the Dead Three Two... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 07:18:07
All good points, Gray  . I found myself agreeing with most of it, to a degree.
Notice though, this -
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The FRCS seems to say no. A divine agent of a deity cannot take just any soul it likes, it can only take the souls of people who worshipped that agent's god.
We must reflect on what would become of the soul from a Faithful who once worshipped a deity for a majority of his or her lifetime, but them for some personal reason, left the faith behind, no longer believing. Would he or she end up as a Faithless on the Fugue Plane?
I think it is important to note that just having true faith in a particular deity is simply NOT enough. That faith must be maintained and it must be a devotion adhered to for the person's entire lifetime -- up until the point of body death and their souls pass onto the Fugue Plane.
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| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 06:51:17
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
3) Will a deity take a soul into their realm if the person lived a life according to the deity's beliefs even if they did not worship that particular deity?
The FRCS seems to say no. A divine agent of a deity cannot take just any soul it likes, it can only take the souls of people who worshipped that agent's god.
Furthermore, if that soul did not worship any deity, it is compelled to go into Kelemvor's city to be judged as faithless. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 06:46:19
The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting says that it takes more than lipservice to the gods to be a woshipper. Now, if you truly worshipped more than one god, it might give you some options in the afterlife.
Lets think about how this might work.
Gods send their divine agents to the Fugue Plane to collect their worshippers. The FRCS says that divine agents cannot take the souls of worshippers of deities other than the god they represent.
It also says that a soul automatically recognizes an agent of its own deity, knows that it needs to go with that agent, and cannot be deceived by any means to go off with the agent of another divine power.
Now, if you truly worshipped more than one god, it might give you some options in the afterlife.
So say you are a recently dead half-elf that paid hommage to both the god of your elven mother (say Sehanine Moonbow) and the god of your father (lets say Helm). Okay now you are waiting and an Eladrin shows up first to collect you and take you to Sehanine's realm. I see three options:
1) You may feel compelled to go with the first suitable agent that presents himself to you to collect you, so you go off with Sehanine's eladrin.
2) Or perhaps you are free to say "no thankyou" and wait for one of Tyr's archons to come along later.
3) Or the eladrin may be able to sense that you preferred Helm just a tiny fraction bit more than Sehanine and some sort of cosmic principle prevents him from collecting you. Maybe the Fugue Plane or Kelemvor's divine power can tell your heart and ensures that only the agent of the god you revered more can actually collect you.
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| Shadovar |
Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 03:25:14
For question1, though the first deity they worship will well take them in depending on circumstances, but Well even if they(the souls who worshipped the deities) are taken by the deities, they are likely to be as their Petitioners, a follower in their realms with no memory of their past lives but will do as their deity says. |
| Jindael |
Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 03:23:31
quote:
1) What happens to the souls of those who pay homage to multiple deities?
2) Does living by a Deity's dogma/portfolios strengthen that deity even if you do not worship him?
3) Will a deity take a soul into their realm if the person lived a life according to the deity's beliefs even if they did not worship that particular deity?
1) While a farmer may pay homage to Umberlee before having a sea voyage to move his product to Waterdeep, and may pray to Chauntea daily for a good crop, and try to ward off disease by placating Talona every planting season, the fact that he is a cheerful fellow and tends to be a good person, sings in the talent show and gives fiddle lessons to the local kids and has a kind heart means he ends up with Milil, assuming he knows who she is. I would think that an agent of Milil would show up to the soul and make an offer even if the farmer didn't know who she was.
2) Yes. Just like putting a few coins into Beshaba's cup so that she Doesn't pay attention to you strengthens her.
3) See my answer to question 1.
The reason I say most of this is because it seems like the best path in a polytheistic world. I'd totally ignore what it says about the "One Patron Deity only" in the FR books. A lot of stuff (especially in the 3.x version of the game) is black and white, yes or no answers. There is little room given for the flexibility that something as vague and spiritual as faith would entail.
But, answering your questions in the direct interpretation of 3.X rules:
1) Doesn't matter, they have to choose ONE patron deity, and they go to that god's realm, unless they are faithless, false, or accept a deal from a devil.
2) I don't think so. Just the one who's realm you go to when you die.
3) Nope.
Pretty big difference.
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| Kentinal |
Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 03:02:00
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
1) What happens to the souls of those who pay homage to multiple deities?
The deity that comes first often acepts them. Sometimes there can be a contest or selection, this depends on deities involved.
quote:
2) Does living by a Deity's dogma/portfolios strengthen that deity even if you do not worship him?
There certainly appears to be indications of this. But the way of the gods are poorly understood by mortals.
quote:
3) Will a deity take a soul into their realm if the person lived a life according to the deity's beliefs even if they did not worship that particular deity?
Yes this is certainly posible. |
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