| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 06:09:16
Request for info
Which gods died during the Time of Troubles, what where their alignments and where did they die?
So far Ive got the following
Bane: LE, Tantras
Bhaal: LE, Boareskyr Bridge
Mykrul: NE, Waterdeep/Sea of Swords
Ibrandul: CN, Undermountain
Mystra: LN, Northern Cormyr
Torm: LG, Tantras
Also Eric Boyd if your reading this which Demipower of the Orc, Gnoll or Giant pantheon did Shaundakul kill during the Time of Troubles?
If I had to pick one id say Yeenoghu Demon Prince of Gnolls particularly as hes not present on Monster Deities Table on page 221 of F&P |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 02:46:40
Yeah... those MC entries were always a real hoot to read through. Always chock-full of useful lore (for every one of the settings they were published for).
I even recall that the DLMCs were among the first DL references to specifically mention the origins of Ionthas.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 02:34:46
You know... This just made me think of something. The first Ibrandul reference (that I know of) was in an MC entry. Ditto for the fact that Ghaunadaur has a temple hidden in Waterdeep... That was two good bits of Realmslore hidden in monster entries! It again makes me regret WotC's move to make monsters nothing more than stats...  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 01:39:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Going off this thread... anyone know which sources point towards Shar's slaying of Ibrandul during the ToT?
I think the Ibrandlin MC entry in the first Ruins of Undermountain boxed set was the first reference... It's also in Faiths & Avatars, where Ibrandul has an entry.
And it's referenced on "The Gods walk Toril" article at WotC.
|
| Arivia |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 18:01:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the Ibrandlin MC entry in the first Ruins of Undermountain boxed set was the first reference... It's also in Faiths & Avatars, where Ibrandul has an entry.
Great --- exactly what I needed to know. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 17:55:19
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Going off this thread... anyone know which sources point towards Shar's slaying of Ibrandul during the ToT?
I think the Ibrandlin MC entry in the first Ruins of Undermountain boxed set was the first reference... It's also in Faiths & Avatars, where Ibrandul has an entry. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 17:29:01
Going off this thread... anyone know which sources point towards Shar's slaying of Ibrandul during the ToT? |
| coach |
Posted - 16 Nov 2005 : 19:11:53
Tiamat killing Gilgeam during the ToT is described in the prelude of FR novel The Alabaster Staff |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 15:24:17
<<I beleive most accounts that mention Gareth's exploits only mention that he destroyed the Wand of Orcus, not that he destroyed Orcus himself. If you think about it, it would almost makes sense, since Orcus' wand was destroyed, then Kiransalee attacks him when he was weakened, without his favorite weapon.>>
Gareth destroyed the wand, but Kiaransalee is mentioned in demi-human deities as having hidden the wand AFTER destroying him.
"Although she lacked the power
to eliminate the very memory of Orcus from the minds of the
multiverse after killing the Prince of the Undead, Kiaransalee
magically erased the name of the late Abyssal lord wherever
and however it had been recorded. With her foe slain and his
corpse adrift in the Astral Plane, the Lady of the Dead stew all
the servants and proxies of Orcus (save one, whom she accepted
into her own service) and hid the legendary Wand of Orcus
where none could ever find it-or so she thought."
As is often the case, it sounds to me that something much more interesting could be made of these events.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 02:27:54
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Powers & Pantheons says the Velsharoon is him. :)
And that's the other reference I was thinking about. ::lightbulb::
I knew there was another official source beside MM... Shows what happens when you don't get a full night's sleep  .
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 02:21:27
Mellifleur is listed as an alias of Velsharoon in Powers and Pantheons. Other than that, I can't find anything official. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 02:19:49
Powers & Pantheons says that Velsharoon is him. :) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 02:12:58
Monster Mythology makes a passing reference.
There's also quite a number of "unofficial" theories online that suggest a possible connection between Velsharoon and Mellifleur, but I find most of them poorly supported by facts.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 02:05:32
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Mellifleur has had any influence in the Realms... |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 01:28:27
As far as the Orcus/Gareth/Kiransalee thing . . . I beleive most accounts that mention Gareth's exploits only mention that he destroyed the Wand of Orcus, not that he destroyed Orcus himself. If you think about it, it would almost makes sense, since Orcus' wand was destroyed, then Kiransalee attacks him when he was weakened, without his favorite weapon. As for why he arose as an undead demon lord, hey . . . how many necromancers do you need as worshippers before you pick up a few tricks, especially from the liches.
Velsharoon, if I remember correctly, was first mentioned as having performed a ritual that Talos lets certain very powerful mortals find that makes them demigods but binds them to Talos, who then somehow uses them up and tosses them out. I would be intriuged to find out just how Talos uses them, and perhaps find out about some of the other used up demigods that Talos as forsaken. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 16:39:35
Well, I've long held a wondering about what happened with the various death gods during and around the time of troubles. In particular Orcus and Mellifleur (now Velsharoon?)
Myrkul (Lord of Death)- fairly understandable. Disintegrated by Midnight/Mystra, though his intellect still exists in a crown. There was a night that passed recently which served to drawn a lot of his power to the realms, but that was followed in Dungeon magazine and little realmslore followed
Orcus (Demon Lord of Undeath) - was slain by several people and/or beings apparently. It was either several instances, or one which I would like to see more realmslore on. Orcus was apparently slain by King Gareth Dragonsbane of Damara, along with his comrades.... Orcus was also apparently slain in realmslore by the drow goddess, Kiaransalee. Both occurred relatively recently. I find it very hard to believe that he was spanked twice within a short time (unless of course, he was weakened and then the times of troubles happened). Of course, I know both references come from separate modules (one the H series for bloodstone, the other the dead gods huge module), but I would like to hear more of what actually happened. For instance, does the most holy knight Gareth Dragonsbane owe a favor to the Drow goddess of undeath and vengeance? Also, apparently Gareth slew an aspect of Tiamat in the weakening of Orcus because he needed to bathe the wand of Orcus in its blood to destroy it. Now Orcus has arisen as an undead god again and is apparently gaining power once more. How did he come about re-animating?
Velsharoon - apparently there used to be a god of Liches who was named Mellifleur. There was never much heard of him, but he was apparently created by accident and he stripped a significant portion of Bane's power from him during his creation. Along comes a powerful outcast red wizard necromancer named Velsharoon. He apparently comes to some agreement with Talos and in some Imaskari ruins performs a ritual to become a lich which also elevates him to godhood.
Now, I don't envision Talos as being a god who would willingly give up his power to create another deity. I do see Velsharoon possibly finding the phylactery of Mellifleur hidden away in an old Imaskari tomb (perhaps Mellifleur was even an Imaskari, though the timeline for the arising of Bane would have to be questioned). I can then see Talos instructing Velsharoon in the ritual needed to ascend (after all, he'll just be pulling on the power of Mellifleur who was either destroyed during the ToT or had been hiding) by tying himself to the phylactery.
So, Velsharoon becomes the god of liches and goes ahead and claims the entire portfolio of necromancy. Why not, Orcus isn't around anymore to fight him for it. How did he do this? Is this perhaps what caused Orcus to arise again as an undead god?
Also, were there any vestiges of Mellifleur left whenever the ritual was performed? We also know that Velsharoon is trying to befriend Mystra, Talos, AND Shar. Could it be that Velsharoon and Mellifleur both exist now? It could be a split personality thing... it could be split into separate avatars. They might not even be aware of one another, though I doubt that. It might be that Velsharoon no longer exists and was subsumed by the will of Mellifleur (or vice versa).
Also, was Mellifleur not heard of after the time of troubles BECAUSE his power was tied to Bane's? Did Velsharoon's ascension CAUSE the re-awakening of Bane's power?
Finally, Velsharoon was an OUTCAST red wizard necromancer. This to me says he had a grudge against Thay, but they are a prime source for him to gain supporters. How has this played into things? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Oct 2005 : 02:13:40
On Hallowed Ground is sometimes an easier reference for a particular deity, when you're looking for details fast. I mainly use it as a "ready-source" that's close at hand.
The three main deity books are more useful when you're looking for more in-depth info on gods.
And Monster Mythology is good for everything that falls in-between.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 19:52:29
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed. And as I've said time and again, I continue to add 2e's Monster Mythology and PS's On Hallowed Ground supplements to the basic deity triad of books.
While I do have both of those tomes, I can't say I'm terribly familiar with either -- especially the latter. It's a more recent acquisition, and one I've not done much more than flip thru. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 18:36:29
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Question - I haven't looked in my 2E Faiths and Avatars book for a long time - is it a pretty good source for the ToT?
C-Fb
I consider those three books to be the best sources of lore for anything pertaining to deities. 
Indeed. And as I've said time and again, I continue to add 2e's Monster Mythology and PS's On Hallowed Ground supplements to the basic deity triad of books.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 18:28:10
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Question - I haven't looked in my 2E Faiths and Avatars book for a long time - is it a pretty good source for the ToT?
C-Fb
I consider those three books to be the best sources of lore for anything pertaining to deities. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 16:08:01
Question - I haven't looked in my 2E Faiths and Avatars book for a long time - is it a pretty good source for the ToT?
C-Fb |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 16:01:32
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
As does Tom Costa's write-up for deity locations in the Realms during the Time of Troubles. 'Tis on AJA's website:- http://www.geocities.com/timessquare/castle/2566/deitylocations.htm
It's also on the Wizard page, here. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 07:05:06
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Im pretty syre Faithes and Avatars (The 2ed source book) was the source for Shaundakul killing one of the Orc/Gnoll powers. The power he killed isnt named
As does Tom Costa's write-up for deity locations in the Realms during the Time of Troubles. 'Tis on AJA's website:- http://www.geocities.com/timessquare/castle/2566/deitylocations.htm
|
| Dargoth |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 05:41:48
Im pretty syre Faithes and Avatars (The 2ed source book) was the source for Shaundakul killing one of the Orc/Gnoll powers. The power he killed isnt named |
| Dhomal |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 05:30:30
Hello-
Sorry to dredge up something from as long ago as this - but I have a related question:
Where id the reference for Shaundakul killing one of the Orcish gods in Myth Drannor during the Time of Troubles?
I'm sure this is an easy one, so Thanks heartilly for the reply! :)
Dhomal |
| Bakra |
Posted - 24 Jan 2005 : 15:38:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
[quote]Originally posted by tauster
does a god continue to exist on one plane when (s)he is killed on another (except for the homeplane, naturally)? or paraphrased: is a god only dead on the plane (s)he was destroyed?
Leira, like most Realms deities, existed only on Toril. Her homeplane was Limbo, so when Cyric and Mask slew her there, that was the end of her.
Best to our knowledge that is the end of her. If she is multispheric we are not going to know.
Tiamat also slew Gilgleam (? not sure on that spelling)during the Time of Troubles. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2005 : 07:46:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
does a god continue to exist on one plane when (s)he is killed on another (except for the homeplane, naturally)? or paraphrased: is a god only dead on the plane (s)he was destroyed?
Limbo was her homeplane.
As to the multispheric question:
The way I see it, if Liera was killed on Oerth for example, she is "banished" from that plane, until she can restablish herself.
To expand a bit on what Warlockco said... Some deities exist in multiple worlds. Each setting happens on its own world (Dragginglance is Krynn, the Realms are Toril, etc), and each world is in its own solar system. When a deity is killed outside of the plane where they actually dwell, that deity is banished from that world (and thus, the entire solar system). If they exist in other settings, then they are still alive and kicking there. But, if a god is killed on the plane that they actually live on, then they are totally dead, everywhere.
Leira, like most Realms deities, existed only on Toril. Her homeplane was Limbo, so when Cyric and Mask slew her there, that was the end of her.
Simple, exact, and precise. Your definition was perfect, Wooly. And you've covered everything. I feel that there's only one point left to add...
Sometimes even killing a deity on their home plane is not enough. The case of Aoskar would seem to indicate that even those gods cast out onto the Silvery Void, have a way of finding their way back to some kind of existence as a power.
I don't think deities can ever truly be considered "destroyed". Although, perhaps if one cast a dead god isle through a portal into the Far Realm... the deity would cease to have any meaning or substance in our reality.
But that, is a discussion for another forum...
|
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 23 Jan 2005 : 04:17:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If they exist in other settings, then they are still alive and kicking there. But, if a god is killed on the plane that they actually live on, then they are totally dead, everywhere.
The conclusion of the Queen of the Spiders supermodule comes to mind. If I recall, there were options at the end for the characters to kill the goddess either in her own plane or elsewhere. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jan 2005 : 01:45:11
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
does a god continue to exist on one plane when (s)he is killed on another (except for the homeplane, naturally)? or paraphrased: is a god only dead on the plane (s)he was destroyed?
Limbo was her homeplane.
As to the multispheric question:
The way I see it, if Liera was killed on Oerth for example, she is "banished" from that plane, until she can restablish herself.
To expand a bit on what Warlockco said... Some deities exist in multiple worlds. Each setting happens on its own world (Dragginglance is Krynn, the Realms are Toril, etc), and each world is in its own solar system. When a deity is killed outside of the plane where they actually dwell, that deity is banished from that world (and thus, the entire solar system). If they exist in other settings, then they are still alive and kicking there. But, if a god is killed on the plane that they actually live on, then they are totally dead, everywhere.
Leira, like most Realms deities, existed only on Toril. Her homeplane was Limbo, so when Cyric and Mask slew her there, that was the end of her.
|
| warlockco |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 20:05:43
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
does a god continue to exist on one plane when (s)he is killed on another (except for the homeplane, naturally)? or paraphrased: is a god only dead on the plane (s)he was destroyed?
Limbo was her homeplane.
As to the multispheric question:
The way I see it, if Liera was killed on Oerth for example, she is "banished" from that plane, until she can restablish herself. |
| tauster |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 17:05:10
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
No Leira was killed in Limbo so it didnt have an effect on Faerun physically
i am not familiar with the "3E multiverse" and donīt know too much of 2E planescape, so probably the following is a silly question:
what exactly does that mean?
does a god continue to exist on one plane when (s)he is killed on another (except for the homeplane, naturally)? or paraphrased: is a god only dead on the plane (s)he was destroyed?
...and considering the example of leira: could she still around on faerun/realmspace, because cyric killed her in limbo?
iīd very much like to throw a priest of leira my players way (playing in 1371 dr), and would feel better if i can back it canon-wise, even if itīs only a theory. |
