| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Arravis |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 14:56:02
In my campaign, the PC’s have raised the ire of The Unseen, a group of doppelgangers working out of Waterdeep. What I’m trying to find out is how doppelgangers would be regarded by the city itself. In the City of Splendors boxed set, it states:
“Beings of almost all races may be seen in the city, too. A typical Waterdhavian would react with hostility and fear only to a drow, an illithid, nonhuman natives of the Lower Planes, and, of course, ‘monsters’ such as beholders and dragons; with all others, it’s generally ‘business as usual.’”
Where would doppelgangers fall in this attitude? Are they ‘monsters’, or just another ‘business as usual’ race? In the SRD it mentions this about doppelgangers and their role in society:
“Doppelgangers make excellent use of their natural mimicry to stage ambushes, bait traps, and infiltrate humanoid society. Although not usually evil, they are interested only in themselves and regard all others as playthings to be manipulated and deceived.”
Personally, I’d think such a thing would not be welcome in a city, but outcasted, since it functions, not only as a non-productive member, but actually feeds off the community. It is essentially a parasite on society.
Now, how would members of The Unseen be treated by city officials (the Watch, etc)? Here is a paragraph on the role of the Unseen in Waterdeep from the City of Splendors boxed set:
“The Unseen is a consortium of shapechangers, thieves, illusionists, and assassins that is attempting to quietly supplant various powerful people within Waterdeep (by replacing them with doppelgangers and other shapechangers) and use their positions and influence to help themselves to their power, money, and prestige.”
Is the city aware of this organization, and if so, how would they react to them? Would they be arrested and investigated immediately; would they be killed on sight; or would they be let off with a warning if there was no evidence of wrongdoing?
Well, any ideas, suggestions, or advice on this would be most appreciated. Thanks guys!
—Arravis |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| William of Waterdeep |
Posted - 20 Jan 2005 : 01:03:12
Theys what eld me hostage under the City of the dead.I sware tis true Bookwyrm, one had your face and the ugly buger beat and chained me.tis too soon after my escape to think of such horror. |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 11 Jan 2005 : 14:06:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
It does indeed. Thanks again, Mr. Rupert. 
Call me Ishmael -- er, um, Wooly. 
Very well. Thanks again, Wooly.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Perhaps I should just direct all my Realms questions to you from now on . . . since the Sage never seems to be around when I need an specific FR answer . . . 
Sages, in general, have a habit of doing things like that. 
It's an annoying habit, but then, I suppose most here are used to that by now.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 10:52:57
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
It does indeed. Thanks again, Mr. Rupert.
Call me Ishmael -- er, um, Wooly.
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Perhaps I should just direct all my Realms questions to you from now on . . . since the Sage never seems to be around when I need an specific FR answer . . .
Sages, in general, have a habit of doing things like that. |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 06:34:19
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
I'm actually thinking about my submission for the next issue of the Compendium, which will likely be an NPC. It's based around the idea of detailing one of the more "older" members of the Unseen, perhaps using the "greater doppelganger" aspect.
For 3.x, greater doppelgangers were covered in Monsters of Faerûn. For 2E, they were covered in the City of Splendors boxed set. Hope that helps! 
It does indeed. Thanks again, Mr. Rupert. Perhaps I should just direct all my Realms questions to you from now on . . . since the Sage never seems to be around when I need an specific FR answer . . .
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 05:39:50
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Ah, good memory, I had forgotten they were covered in MoF.
Now who's getting senile?  |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 04:57:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
For 3.x, greater doppelgangers were covered in Monsters of Faerûn. For 2E, they were covered in the City of Splendors boxed set. Hope that helps!
Ah, good memory, I had forgotten they were covered in MoF. That tome revealed the Unseen's influence to be both in Waterdeep and Skullport. Moreover, the group definitely is ambitious since MoF details a plot against the Open Lord of Waterdeep. It should be interesting to see what the upcoming sourcebook has to say about them. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 01:07:46
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
I'm actually thinking about my submission for the next issue of the Compendium, which will likely be an NPC. It's based around the idea of detailing one of the more "older" members of the Unseen, perhaps using the "greater doppelganger" aspect.
For 3.x, greater doppelgangers were covered in Monsters of Faerûn. For 2E, they were covered in the City of Splendors boxed set. Hope that helps! |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 09 Jan 2005 : 10:55:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Ah. Thank you both .
Because I usually use the RL interpretation of the standard doppelganger in my Realms campaign (they seemed to fit in much better with the overall tone of the adventures I'm running), it's a little harder for me to assign classes such as these to them. 
I like the greater doppelgangers, myself... When they take someone's identity, they assume it fully -- to the point of being able to be mindscanned, and get away with it, and they also retain the person's class abilities (except for deity-granted things, like spells and a paladin's laying on of hands). So it's not the doppelganger that has the classes, it's the consumed identity that has the class. And those, you assign classes however you feel like.
I'm actually thinking about my submission for the next issue of the Compendium, which will likely be an NPC. It's based around the idea of detailing one of the more "older" members of the Unseen, perhaps using the "greater doppelganger" aspect.
|
| Kentinal |
Posted - 08 Jan 2005 : 15:59:15
"Doppelganger" is German for "double walker" - a shadow self that is thought to accompany every person. Traditionally, it is said that only the owner of the doppelganger can see this phantom self, and that it can be a harbinger of death. Occasionally, however, a doppelganger can be seen by a person's friends or family, resulting in quite a bit of confusion.
In instances of bilocation, a person can either spontaneously or willingly project his or her double, known as a "wraith," to a remote location. This double is indistinguishable from the real person and can interact with others just as the real person would. |
| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 08 Jan 2005 : 15:29:56
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Ah. Thank you both .
Because I usually use the RL interpretation of the standard doppelganger in my Realms campaign...
  There are doppelgangers in RL!?! |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 08 Jan 2005 : 15:22:32
The Company of Crazed Venturers (with Ed Greenwood as DM, before the Realms was published as anything more than a handful of DRAGON articles) killed over seventy dopplegangers in various skirmishes in (and under) Waterdeep - - and were told by one they DIDN'T kill that they should desist, because if they killed any more, "You might begin to attract our attention, and so become a threat to be swept away. In an idle afternoon, perhaps."
So yes, I'd say there are LOTS of dopplegangers, Unseen members or not.
THO |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Jan 2005 : 13:52:22
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Ah. Thank you both .
Because I usually use the RL interpretation of the standard doppelganger in my Realms campaign (they seemed to fit in much better with the overall tone of the adventures I'm running), it's a little harder for me to assign classes such as these to them.
I like the greater doppelgangers, myself... When they take someone's identity, they assume it fully -- to the point of being able to be mindscanned, and get away with it, and they also retain the person's class abilities (except for deity-granted things, like spells and a paladin's laying on of hands). So it's not the doppelganger that has the classes, it's the consumed identity that has the class. And those, you assign classes however you feel like. |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 08 Jan 2005 : 08:16:16
Ah. Thank you both .
Because I usually use the RL interpretation of the standard doppelganger in my Realms campaign (they seemed to fit in much better with the overall tone of the adventures I'm running), it's a little harder for me to assign classes such as these to them.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Jan 2005 : 00:42:16
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Next question . . . could we assume that some of these doppelgangers have character classes?
Yes, the same page on Cloak & Dagger provides character classes for several of the dopplegangers' identities.
As does the City of Splendors boxed set. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 16:15:57
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Next question . . . could we assume that some of these doppelgangers have character classes?
Yes, the same page on Cloak & Dagger provides character classes for several of the dopplegangers' identities. |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 13:49:20
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Do we actually know how many of the Unseen there are? Or is it simply a fact that Waterdhavians could be encountering only a small number who have assumed some many guises and roles that their numbers would be seen to be legion?
From Cloak & Dagger, page 100
quote:
Within Waterdeep, the Unseen is believed to include nearly two dozen dopplegangers, of which a third or more are mirrorkin, a half-dozen greater leucrotta, and more than ten human agents who are aware of for whom they work.
Thank you, Sirius. Cloak and Dagger has always been one of my favorite 2e resources.
quote:
The City of Splendors boxed set doesn't give any numbers, but it does list 23 named members. If those are the notable ones, then I'd say the group is at least 100 strong. Perhaps we could get the esteemed Sage Schend in here to toss out some info...
Next question . . . could we assume that some of these doppelgangers have character classes?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 06:05:02
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Do we actually know how many of the Unseen there are? Or is it simply a fact that Waterdhavians could be encountering only a small number who have assumed some many guises and roles that their numbers would be seen to be legion?
The City of Splendors boxed set doesn't give any numbers, but it does list 23 named members. If those are the notable ones, then I'd say the group is at least 100 strong. Perhaps we could get the esteemed Sage Schend in here to toss out some info... |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 05:58:27
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
BTW, I'm kind of surprised that LoD didn't have some info on the Unseen. I was kind of expecting them to be in there instead of a group like the Monks of the Long Death.
Another one of the reasons why I prefer the 2e tome addressing this subject matter. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 05:56:17
I don't think anybody really knows the exact the number of members in the Unseen. They are one of those really secretive organizations that like to use independent parties, and to make it worse; they are masters of disguise so that makes them even harder to be discovered. Also, they have agents in Skullport too and those aren't even detailed in sourcebooks (at least I don't think).
BTW, I'm kind of surprised that LoD didn't have some info on the Unseen. I was kind of expecting them to be in there instead of a group like the Monks of the Long Death. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 05:51:37
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Do we actually know how many of the Unseen there are? Or is it simply a fact that Waterdhavians could be encountering only a small number who have assumed some many guises and roles that their numbers would be seen to be legion?
From Cloak & Dagger, page 100
quote:
Within Waterdeep, the Unseen is believed to include nearly two dozen dopplegangers, of which a third or more are mirrorkin, a half-dozen greater leucrotta, and more than ten human agents who are aware of for whom they work.
|
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 05:25:59
Do we actually know how many of the Unseen there are? Or is it simply a fact that Waterdhavians could be encountering only a small number who have assumed some many guises and roles that their numbers would be seen to be legion?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 23:27:01
Waterdeep has seen a lot of races walk its streets... With the exception of the banned races, I think they would allow any creature, so long as it adhered to Waterdhavian laws.
A known doppelganger would not be trusted. But, so long as they operated carefully and -- most importantly -- didn't slay anyone, they would not run afoul of the law. For a canon example of this, I direct you to The Hanging Lantern, in Volo's Guide to Waterdeep. The Watchful Order knows that doppelgangers are employed there, and leaves them alone, so long as they behave (the tavern is in fact owned by the Unseen).
As for the Unseen... The Lords have an uncanny knack for knowing what's going on in their city. According to the City of Splendors boxed set, they do know of the Unseen, though what they know is little. I'd say it's a safe bet that the Lords are trying to get an agent or two on the inside of the group to keep and eye on them, and to thwart certain aims (though I think the Lords would let some plans succeed, so they could take advantage of them). |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 21:17:22
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
Agreed... as with not every troll is evil, etc... but they aren't welcome in the city. Nor are Drow.
I have looked through Code Legal, I can't find anything in there that answers the question. How Waterdeep feels about other races is in my original post.
Well not having the box set, that appears to contain the most complete code at best I can offer a guess. The law is written in such a way as not to exclude races, just actions. That unwritten code has evolved for distructive races. Those that most commonly break laws of the city. Drow, Trolls and so on tending to cause crime would tend to be viewed as guilty because of race assosciation. The acceptance of races is based on the preception of a race by the citizens of the City. The answers lie in the culture of the community, not the laws of a comminity. Any community can choose to ignore its laws if they no longer agree with them. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 21:03:21
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
This sounds like an interesting case to hear about in a tavern: if someone kills someone else, only to find that the murdered person was actually a doppelganger assuming that identity . . . does that mean the murderer is actually a murderer, or does the charge become only attempted murder?
In the U.S., I know it would be attempted murder and accidental manslaughter, at least under the letter of the law.
I will repeat, not every death is a crime.
The death of another can be acidentally, self-defense, proper defense of another (justified homicide), murder (intentional killing another without justification).
Some types of acidental deaths are considered manslaughter, reckless endangerment, or are not considered a crime at all. The example of killing a shapechanger depends on the facts of the case. The killing certainly would be acidental however might be justified as well. If the shapeshifter took a form of an enity wanted dead or alive , it is not the killer's fault for acidentally killing the shape shifter (it is the fault of the shapeshifter for making a bad choice). There are many posible outcomes that can be presented, some logical, some politital in handling a death. Clearly not all deaths are a crime even in todays time and less would be a crime in Waterdeep. |
| Arravis |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 20:44:38
Agreed... as with not every troll is evil, etc... but they aren't welcome in the city. Nor are Drow.
I have looked through Code Legal, I can't find anything in there that answers the question. How Waterdeep feels about other races is in my original post. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 20:27:13
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
Yes, I know of the importance of trade and the shifting population, etc... but does that mean that the city would grant civil rights to what is essentially a social parasite? It wouldn't be in it's benefit, since their very existance seems to be a hindrance to society itself.
Just about as much civil rights granted to a Drow, some might earn enough trust to be accorded protection. However you will need to consult the law books of Waterdeep to get a better answer. As every Drow is not evil it certainly can follow that not every doppelganger is "a social parasite"
|
| Arravis |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 20:02:18
Well, the situation at hand is a bit... odder then that, lol. Take a look:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113060 |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 19:59:45
This sounds like an interesting case to hear about in a tavern: if someone kills someone else, only to find that the murdered person was actually a doppelganger assuming that identity . . . does that mean the murderer is actually a murderer, or does the charge become only attempted murder?
In the U.S., I know it would be attempted murder and accidental manslaughter, at least under the letter of the law. |
| Arravis |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 19:50:21
Yes, I know of the importance of trade and the shifting population, etc... but does that mean that the city would grant civil rights to what is essentially a social parasite? It wouldn't be in it's benefit, since their very existance seems to be a hindrance to society itself. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 19:41:11
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
If a doppelganger is killed then, is it murder? Would the doppelganger be considered a citizen, and thus protected by it's laws?
Death can result for many reasons, killing does not always equal murder. There is self-defense, there can be acidentally killing (perhaps because of form used). Any death will be investigated under laws of the city, which if like most apply differently to different sections and and races.
It certainly is posible that some doppelgangers could be considered citizens, perhaps those employed as spies by Lords for example. I do not know the current state of the laws of Waterdeep, however I suspect most laws extend to visitors the same (or at least almost the same) protection as its citizens recieve. _The North indicated a population that changed greatly over the year, because of the trading aspects. The population during trading season could be 10 times as much as those that live there full time. If this is still the case the laws very much need to make visitors feel protected as long as they do not commit crimes. Of the transient population many would be those that returned every year and might , because of being known, recieve better tratment under the law then a first time visitor. |
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