| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 19:50:58
There are several discusions going on like Ao's superior and mightiest beings that involves many non-Fearunian lore. I find some of them confusing like the terms multiverse and the realmspace.
There is a new definition in 3rd ed called realmspace that I couldn't exactly understand. Now first of all, is realmspace a multiverse?
If it is, does that mean Fearun is the primal material plane in reamlmspace as well as kryn of krynspace or the earth of our space?
Are the outer planes linked with other multiverses to combine an eternal plane or do every multiverses have different outer planes apart from each other?
And Sigil is told to be either central of the outer planes or multiverse. Now does sigil only belong to the realmspace or is it the central point of a common outer plane?
If realmspace is not a multiverse that means I don't know anything about this issue so fellow scribes please inform me.
If my questions are not clear enough I m sorry that is the best I can, please do not hesitate to answer whatever you understand :)))). |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 20:41:05
Of course, I'd expressed this theory before, though it's a little more detailed this time around. I'll wait for you to put your thoughts up on WoD&D. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 15:06:42
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
On the other hand, using what I know of the way the cosmology should be, I say that Eberron's a special case. I maintain that it's a splinter of the Prime Material Plane, "in orbit" or "out of phase" (pick your flavor) somewhat lost in the Ethereal. It's dragged other planar splinters with it over the eons, which have created the special-case planes "in orbit" around it, which are mainly mixtures of planar substance with certain kinds dominating each.
That's an intriguing theory, Bookwyrm. In fact, it would appear to mesh with my own ideas about the origin of Xoriat being tied to the Far Realm in the core cosmology. I've speculated that Xoriat was in fact, the "first layer" (if such a concept can be applied to the Far Realm) of the Outside, and that it became "detached" from the planar framework when... ...
Well, I rather doubt Alaundo would permit this discussion to continue here, so I'll reserve posting the rest of the basics of my theory, over at Worlds  .
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 06:46:56
Whew! So many sages talking at once! (But this is what I've been missing lately.  )
Spelljammer and the crystal spheres somewhat ruin things. I don't like crystal spheres. No problem with spelljammer ships, per se. I just don't like the spheres. (However, I know the argument for why they were needed.) Of course, in 3e comology, they kind of become easier. You just say that each cosmology has its material plane as a crystal sphere. But I don't like the idea of "different cosomologies" so . . . phooy. (And I don't see them as mirror universes you get to with a transporter teleport spell mishap. The way I've always read "alternate material plane" even back in the 2e books I've read was just as other worlds to visit, like Krynn or Oerth.)
3e cosmology makes Eberron easier to peg. If it doesn't have to fit with the others, it doesn't have to fit period. On the other hand, using what I know of the way the cosmology should be, I say that Eberron's a special case. I maintain that it's a splinter of the Prime Material Plane, "in orbit" or "out of phase" (pick your flavor) somewhat lost in the Ethereal. It's dragged other planar splinters with it over the eons, which have created the special-case planes "in orbit" around it, which are mainly mixtures of planar substance with certain kinds dominating each. Every so often (who knows how frequently) the whole cosmology comes into conjunction with the rest of the multiverse, and travel is possible, sometimes unwittingly. That's how Eberron got populated, but why it's so different. (It's also a convenient way to get a party from Eberron to another setting. Oops, planar mishap! Bad dog, Toto!) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 01:57:04
Looks like you beat me to it, Kuje  ...  You've covered the planar side of things rather interestingly ( ), so I'll just expand on one of your earlier points.
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Ravenloft is one of many demiplanes in the Ethereal plane.
This is only the case in 2e, I must point out. The 3e books have suggested, several times actually, that the Demiplane of Dread occupies a completely alternate Ethereal plane in a completely separate planar cosmology. There is, at present, no actual way to journey to the Demiplane of Dread using the 3e interpretations of alternate cosmologies, unless the characters journey through the Plane of Shadow first, which would connect to the alternate reality of an alternate prime in the cosmology which holds the Demiplane of Dread in it's own Ethereal plane.
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| Forlorn |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 00:15:44
Now I see |
| Kuje |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 00:11:21
quote:
Originally posted by Forlorn
So you say every crystal sphere has its own outer plane and those are connected at various places.
No, again each campaign setting in 2e was the same multiverse. It had one Prime Material Plane and used the Great Wheel/Ring for its Inner, Outer, and Transit planes. Inner planes are the elemental planes, outer planes are where the gods live and where most souls go when they die, transit planes are the Astral and Ethereal which connected the outer and inner planes to the Prime. Each setting had thier own sphere on the one Prime Material, except for Ravenloft which was part of the Ethereal.
This was the concept of 2e's multiverse.
Now in 3e each setting has thier own Prime Material, thier own Inner and Outer and Transit planes that are seperate and different from each other but you can get to the seperate and different cosmologies via the Shadow Plane, Sigil, the Staircase, and portals. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 00:05:49
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
If there are sources which imply you can worldwalk with a teleport spell (because within the same prime material plane), no wonder I forgot them...
Forlorn, I would stop trying to understand the Spelljammer aspect. It wasn't originally part of the Realms, and it isn't interesting unless you have spelljamming PCs.
This a matter of opinion. Spelljammer is still interesting even if you don't have spelljamming PC's because there are many FR sourcebooks that mention Spelljammer's. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 23:56:42
If there are sources which imply you can worldwalk with a teleport spell (because within the same prime material plane), no wonder I forgot them...
Forlorn, I would stop trying to understand the Spelljammer aspect. It wasn't originally part of the Realms, and it isn't interesting unless you have spelljamming PCs. |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 23:37:15
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Forlorn
Faraer, I think I couldn't write down what I thought.
When I said far reaches of the outer plane in realms space I actually wanted to say;
lets say x is a part of eberon solar system. And it is far away from realms. To realms x is located in outer planes. So a place in outer planes according to realmspace can be a part of another solar system.
Just an idea, tell me if I wrong about the shape of the cosmos. Cuz eventhough I got the idea , it is still too complex for me.
No, each setting is in its own solar system, and each solar system is contained in its own crystal sphere. Beyond the spheres was this weird substance called phlogiston. The spheres floated in that stuff.
So, while we don't have a name for Eberron's crystal sphere, rest assured that if Spelljammer rules were applied, it would be in its own, separate sphere, just as the other campaign settings are.
So you say every crystal sphere has its own outer plane and those are connected at various places. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 23:10:34
quote:
Originally posted by Forlorn
Faraer, I think I couldn't write down what I thought.
When I said far reaches of the outer plane in realms space I actually wanted to say;
lets say x is a part of eberon solar system. And it is far away from realms. To realms x is located in outer planes. So a place in outer planes according to realmspace can be a part of another solar system.
Just an idea, tell me if I wrong about the shape of the cosmos. Cuz eventhough I got the idea , it is still too complex for me.
No, each setting is in its own solar system, and each solar system is contained in its own crystal sphere. Beyond the spheres was this weird substance called phlogiston. The spheres floated in that stuff.
So, while we don't have a name for Eberron's crystal sphere, rest assured that if Spelljammer rules were applied, it would be in its own, separate sphere, just as the other campaign settings are. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 22:49:40
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Toril exists in its own prime material plane (this is not a 3E retcon, but the version given in the original Forgotten Realms Campaign Set); travel between these planes was once more common than it is now, hence the name 'Forgotten Realms'.
I just gotta say it: Wrong, this is a 3e retcon and yes yes there was such text in 1e but 2e changed it so it's a retcon back to 1e. :) |
| Kuje |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 22:45:27
Don't know how else to explain this.
Eberron is only connected to FR via Sigil, the Staircase, or the Shadow Plane, or portals. It, in 3e, is a whole seperate multiverse or cosmology unlike in 2e when there was just one multiverse that shared the same planes and cosmology. |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 22:17:25
Faraer, I think I couldn't write down what I thought.
When I said far reaches of the outer plane in realms space I actually wanted to say;
lets say x is a part of eberon solar system. And it is far away from realms. To realms x is located in outer planes. So a place in outer planes according to realmspace can be a part of another solar system.
Just an idea, tell me if I wrong about the shape of the cosmos. Cuz eventhough I got the idea , it is still too complex for me. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 22:03:02
Bear in mind that we have two different systems, the planes (as in the original AD&D and latterly in Planescape) and the crystal spheres (in Spelljammer). It's not surprising the attempts to link the two are a little confusing.
There is only one multiverse: it's the entire cosmos, including all the planes and crystal spheres. I don't know what you mean by 'the far reaches of outer plane in realmspace'. Yes, of course time is part of the multiverse. Toril exists in its own prime material plane (this is not a 3E retcon, but the version given in the original Forgotten Realms Campaign Set); travel between these planes was once more common than it is now, hence the name 'Forgotten Realms'.
The multiverse has no absolute centre. (While Sigil is part of the official continuity the Realms is part of, it was conceived independently from the Realms and is not important from a Realms point of view. Gary Gygax's Odd Alley, Fritz Leiber's Bazaar of the Bizarre, and William Morris's Wood Between the Worlds are dimensional nexuses that fit the Realms better.) |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 21:47:19
Waww, this is insane, man. I feel like I m trying to understand advanced phsycs not a game setting :))).
As far as I understand, every solar system is a primal material plane and called multiverse. They all exist in an eternal multiverse. All the multiverses are connected to each other with a very complex symstem. An place in Eberon solar system can be apart of the far reaches of outer plane in realmspace. Furthermore in a way even time is a part of multiverse.And eventhough for example past of Fearun is not a plane it is also a part of the multiverse
At the by all means Sigil is at the center of all.
Correct me if I misunderstood.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 20:46:24
quote:
Originally posted by Forlorn
There are several discusions going on like Ao's superior and mightiest beings that involves many non-Fearunian lore. I find some of them confusing like the terms multiverse and the realmspace.
There is a new definition in 3rd ed called realmspace that I couldn't exactly understand. Now first of all, is realmspace a multiverse?
If it is, does that mean Fearun is the primal material plane in reamlmspace as well as kryn of krynspace or the earth of our space?
Are the outer planes linked with other multiverses to combine an eternal plane or do every multiverses have different outer planes apart from each other?
And Sigil is told to be either central of the outer planes or multiverse. Now does sigil only belong to the realmspace or is it the central point of a common outer plane?
If realmspace is not a multiverse that means I don't know anything about this issue so fellow scribes please inform me.
If my questions are not clear enough I m sorry that is the best I can, please do not hesitate to answer whatever you understand :)))).
In 2e there was just one Prime Material Plane that contained Crystal Spheres of Krynn, Realms, Greyhawk, etc. You could travel from one Crystal Sphere to the other via Spelljammer. A crystal sphere contained all the planets, suns, comets, etc within it.
There was just one set of the planes (the great wheel/ring) that contained all of the deities of all the campaign settings.
Ravenloft is one of many demiplanes in the Ethereal plane.
Now in 3e each campaign setting has thier own planes that are seperate and different then the other planes in the other campaign settings. Greyhawk still has the Wheel/Ring but the Realms has the Great Tree. Also each campaign setting has a seperate and different Prime Material. So there could be thousands of Prime Materials and thousands of Lolth's and the Seldarine since each campaign setting has different and seperate named beings in it's cosmology as well, instead of how it was in 2e when the Lolth of Greyhawk was the same one that was in the Realms. Ditto for all the rest of the deities that had worshippers on other Crystal Spheres.
Sigil in 2e rested, maybe, atop the Spire of the Outlands. Now in 3e it still does but it is also a sperate and different plane in the Great Tree while at the same time it is the same exact Sigil that is in the Wheel/Ring. Also in 3e the Shadow Plane can be used to get from one cosmology to the other, as could the Infinite Staircase.
Does this help? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 20:41:35
In the Spelljammer setting, each of the game worlds was in its own solar system. Since these solar systems are sometimes weird -- Oerth (Greyhawk) is the center of its system, and with Krynn, the constellations sometimes change -- the designers needed a way to separate the solar systems but keep them all accessible. So they put each system in its own crystal sphere. Krynn is in Krynnspace, Oerth is in Greyspace, Toril is in Realmspace, and so on. |
| Bakra |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 20:40:34
<<There is a new definition in 3rd ed called realmspace that I couldn't exactly understand. Now first of all, is realmspace a multiverse?>>
Realmspace is what they called the Crystal Sphere that the planet Aber-Toril resides in, Toril being the setting of the Forgotten Realms. Now if we use the new rules from 3e and 3.5 which some of it borrows from modern day quantum physics...then Realmspace is part of the Multiverse and yet it is a Multiverse. Confusing isn't it? Think of it this way for each Prime Material Plane out there, there is an Alternate Prime Material Plane where history is slightly different. ie)In the normal Realms Elminster is the Sage of Shadowdale, but in an alternate he is the Sage of Waterdeep. And each Alternate IS connected to the Multiverse. Now on to the other question:<<Are the outer planes linked with other multiverses to combine an eternal plane or do every multiverses have different outer planes apart from each other? >> Once again I know this sounds like me being a smart ass but the answer is yes. Evey plane that exists in the past, present and future are connected to the Multiverse. Some of these connections are quite clear (Forgotten Realms fo instance makes it very clear how it works within and without the Multiverse) others are not so clear. (Eberron or Birthright) Just remember that everything is connected and at the center of it all is Sigil.
Bakra Lord of the Outlying Thread |
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