| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Valdar Oakensong |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 17:28:37
Could anyone tell me who the being is that Ao refers to at the end of Waterdeep? It seems to point to a higher being.
thanks |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Nov 2005 : 01:04:03
You may want to take a look at the 3e Manual of the Planes... for multiversal details as it pertains to the generic D&D cosmology. And while I personally disagree with actually giving divine powers "stats" in the classic sense, I would suggest that the 3e Deities & Demigods tome might also provides some basic information about higher divine rankings. I'm not certain on that however as I've never actually completely read the book.
You've already read through this scroll, so most of the Realms deity books should already been known to you also, which should help you relate these details to the "known lore of Toril".
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| Cedric the Hunter |
Posted - 14 Nov 2005 : 21:11:56
Hey people, firstly I salute you all. Newcomer I am in these holy chambers of wisdom I seek the lore of the forgotten and my all wise friends please forgive this rookie for his ignorence.
Well this topic confused me. I read the avatar triology and corebooks of many sorts but do you have any source you can direct me ,tomes left forgotten and lay under dust maybe, or these things about multiverses, divine ranks above 20 and things out of realms are your comments and opinions based on known lore of Toril?
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Nov 2005 : 17:22:02
In the Spelljammer setting, traveling clerics had a couple of options for regaining spells... They could get their spells from a similar deity, they could find or found a church to their deity, or there was a spell they could cast to "call home". The contact home power spell was second level, and without deific contact, first and second level spells were all you could get. But once you cast that spell, you got spells the same as if you were on your home world. |
| Talanfir Swiftfeet |
Posted - 12 Nov 2005 : 16:05:24
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
But, who says that the Ilmater counterpart would grant spells to him unless the deity decided he was also worthy?
C-Fb
I'm wondering more about paladins of Kelemvor getting spells in other primes, because lets face it most of the gods of death are evil. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 18:15:19
Spell Keys rule - they are the key to survival when cavorting about the multiverse through the planar gateways!
But, who says that the Ilmater counterpart would grant spells to him unless the deity decided he was also worthy?
C-Fb |
| Kuje |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 17:23:03
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
So basicly if a ilmatari cleric goes to another Prime he/she will get spells from that worlds counterpart of Ilmater.
Pretty much, unless they have a spell key for the deity they originally worshiped, which would allow that deity to cross planar boundries and grant spells to his divine caster. :) |
| Talanfir Swiftfeet |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 17:07:47
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
In 3e, it would have been two different Moander's and Tyr's since it was a different Prime Material. :) And the Tyr of FR, and the other multisphereic deities, are not the same deities of the other planes, like they used to be in 2e.
So basicly if a ilmatari cleric goes to another Prime he/she will get spells from that worlds counterpart of Ilmater. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 16:23:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I.E, in 2e Lloth was Lloth everywhere and there was just one. Now Greyhawk's Lloth is not the same Lloth in FR, except that they share the same name.
Does this apply to other gods worshipped in multiple Primes also? If so does this mean that the Frinders Stone Trilogy is not canon, because forexample Tyr and Moander were worshipped in the Saurial plane aswell as in Toril.
The trilogy is still canon. Tyr and Moander weren't worshipped in that other plane -- Dragonbait went somewhere in the Lower Planes where Moander still had a bit of strength, and Tyr is the closest Realms equivalent to his original deity.
In 3e, it would have been two different Moander's and Tyr's since it was a different Prime Material. :) And the Tyr of FR, and the other multisphereic deities, are not the same deities of the other planes, like they used to be in 2e. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 14:48:26
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I say just use'em how you want.
In the end, that's really what it comes down to -- whether you use the 3e cosmology or not. It's your choice  . For me, I'm settled with the Great Wheel. It's where I started, and it's where I'll stay.
As for the mess... well, there doesn't have to be. Just remember that on the planes, nothing is absolute. The planes are how YOU believe them *to be*  .
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| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 14:42:26
Stretching, but ok... I'll accept it. Planes and spheres and spheres and planes. I say just use'em how you want. Otherwise it becomes this mess. 
C-Fb |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 11:27:20
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I.E, in 2e Lloth was Lloth everywhere and there was just one. Now Greyhawk's Lloth is not the same Lloth in FR, except that they share the same name.
Does this apply to other gods worshipped in multiple Primes also? If so does this mean that the Frinders Stone Trilogy is not canon, because forexample Tyr and Moander were worshipped in the Saurial plane aswell as in Toril.
The trilogy is still canon. Tyr and Moander weren't worshipped in that other plane -- Dragonbait went somewhere in the Lower Planes where Moander still had a bit of strength, and Tyr is the closest Realms equivalent to his original deity. |
| Talanfir Swiftfeet |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 08:20:37
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I.E, in 2e Lloth was Lloth everywhere and there was just one. Now Greyhawk's Lloth is not the same Lloth in FR, except that they share the same name.
Does this apply to other gods worshipped in multiple Primes also? If so does this mean that the Frinders Stone Trilogy is not canon, because forexample Tyr and Moander were worshipped in the Saurial plane aswell as in Toril. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 06:40:15
Ao is not so much a ruler as an administrator. You often hear Ao referred to as a traffic cop. He doesn't "rule" the pantheons so much as step in when they get out of line. He certainly has ultimate power over all the gods. But he mostly leaves them to their own devices.
Ao's interest lies primarily in regulation. He just wants the gods to serve their worshipers and for the gods not to tear up the universe too terribly much. Aside from that he lets the gods do what they like.
As an overgod he does not require or desire the worship of mortals. In fact he has been slowly erasing mortal knowledge of his existence from the minds of the people who remember him from the time of troubles.
Ao did not create or father the gods. He does seem to have a role in approving or allowing their ascension to godhood or to enter the universe and set up shop as an interloper deity. He also seems to have some say in setting boundaries around the divine spheres of influence between pantheons from different geographic regions of Toril.
Ao did create the infrastructure of the universe. He created the Crystal Sphere that surrounds Realmspace. Although he did not create the worlds within the universe. Shar and Selūne created all the planets and heavenly bodies.
Ao works behind the scenes to keep the universe of the Realms in good working order. And he does a pretty good job of it. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 00:22:00
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, that's kind of strange about deities and Overlords - I mean, Lolth only has to pay lip service to Ao in FR world - and then do crazy machinations in the other planes she dwells in. I think it's all just a jumble if Gods rule over more than one plane as it is.
C-Fb
If you are using 2e's planes, that's right. :) However, the named beings in the new cosmologies are not the same named beings in the other cosmologies. I.E, in 2e Lloth was Lloth everywhere and there was just one. Now Greyhawk's Lloth is not the same Lloth in FR, except that they share the same name.
While I think it bears repeating again, I'll just quote the relevant section from the CoC here for the benefit of those who are still confused by this issue of separate cosmologies -
quote:
D. FORGOTTEN REALMS SUBJECT EXPLANATIONS
1. The Forgotten Realms Cosmology (2ed. To 3ed.)
The following illustrates the changes made to the cosmological model of the planes for the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting from 2e to 3e.
We will begin with the planar framework as it was during the days of 2e. In this model, the cosmology is defined by the existence of only ONE Prime Material Plane and the planar cosmology that connects to it -- referred as the Great Wheel (or Ring). This Prime Material Plane was the basis of the entire AD&D game and followed the framework established by the 1e/2e Manual of the Planes. Along the Great Wheel lay the planes of deities, devils, demons, celestials, and nearly every other strange planar race. These planes could be accessed using the Astral Plane which connected to most Outer Plane locations. Although there was only one Prime Material Plane, the plane itself was considered an INFINITE expanse encompassing thousands of singular planetary systems which were encased in Crystal Spheres (usually defined as a standard system containing all the planets, suns, comets and other planetary phenomena within it). Examples of such Crystal Spheres include the Torilian system, the Krynnish system, the solar system of Oerth and the GREYHAWK campaign setting, and nearly every other AD&D campaign world (special note: the RAVENLOFT setting was actually a demiplane within the Ethereal plane of 2e, along with many other demiplanes). Travel to and from these individual crystal spheres was made possible via a transitive planar-like environment known as the Phlogiston -- PCs could access new Crystal Spheres using a spelljamming helm which made travel on the Phlogiston available to characters.
Also included among the planes of the Great Wheel were the Elemental Planes (or Inner Planes). These planes could be accessed by planar travellers through the Ethereal plane. These planes are very specific environments each of which were based on one of the particular prime elements (earth, air, fire and water) necessary for life. Included with these four prime elemental planes were the Energy Planes -- being the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. The final components of the Elemental Planes were the Para- and Quasi- Elemental Planes, each of which were basic combinations of two inner planes. The Para-Elemental Planes were paired combinations of each of the prime elemental planes, and the Quasi-Elemental Planes were paired combinations of one prime elemental plane and either the Positive or Negative Energy plane. There were six for each category.
With the publishing of the core D&D 3e game system, the cosmology framework was altered. The greatest change was to give each 3e campaign setting a complete and separate a planar cosmology all its own. The Great Wheel would still remain, but would only be connected to the core setting of the D&D game -- that being GREYHAWK. The FORGOTTEN REALMS world was one of the campaign settings to be given its own planar framework (known as the Great Tree [detailed in the Player's Guide to Faerun]) which is actually quite different from most other cosmologies of most campaign worlds. One further change was to give each campaign setting its own Prime Material Plane. As such, the multiverse could potentially contain hundreds, thousands, or even millions of individual Prime Material Planes, each of which would have their own individual planar networks connected to them ONLY. To simplify this a little, this means that there could now be more than one standard version of a deity or plane (for example, there are now hundreds of Seldarine courts each of which are related only to a particular campaign setting), whereas in 2e, the Seldarine on the Great Wheel was the Seldarine that the FORGOTTEN REALMS and GREYHAWK settings could relate to.
The Elemental Planes of the 3e FORGOTTEN REALMS Great Tree cosmology are composed of the four prime Elemental Planes (earth, air, fire and water), the Para-Elemental Planes (see the Kezef entry in Champions of Ruin), and the two Energy Planes (positive and negative).
Aside from all of this, is the case for Sigil, the City of Doors. In the 2e PLANESCAPE campaign setting, the City of Doors rested at the peak of the infinitely tall Spire centred in the Outlands (the basis of the Great Wheel cosmology). In 3e, Sigil does still exist as the City of Doors, but it now occupies a completely separate planar environment all its own inside the Great Wheel of the 3e D&D core cosmology. What is special about this individual plane inside the Great Wheel (and atop the Spire) is that the independent nature of the plane in which Sigil rests allows this Sigil to be the only Sigil in the entire multiverse -- thus, the Sigil of the Great Wheel is also the Sigil of the Great Tree for the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting.
And finally, the Ethereal and Astral Planes allow access to all the planes in the Great Tree -- as does the Shadow Plane (which is now a transitive plane and allows PCs to access alternate Prime Material Planes and their cosmologies). In addition, an expanse known as the Infinite Staircase can also act as a transitive "plane" of sorts that also allows access to other regions of the multiverse. Of special consideration at this point is the fact that a number of the planes of gods from the 2e Great Wheel cosmology have no basis or representation in the 3e Great Tree cosmology of the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting. Also, the original domains of the gods on the planes of the 2e Great Wheel are now recognised as full and proper planes in the 3e Great Tree -- complete and stable environments under the control of the deity that resides there. So basically, the Abyss - as it is conceptualised in the GREYHAWK campaign setting - is NOT the same as the Abyss as conceptualised in the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 17:12:11
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Kianna
But that doesn't make any sense. Why would Ao rule over the FR gods in Realmspace...but not any other space if that SAME pantheon ruled there as well?
Because that other sphere/prime might have it's own overpower, which is not AO. AO has no influence on say Mielikki, who was the same Mielikki of the Finnish pantheon, when she is not in Realmspace/that Prime. Only her incarnation in Realmspace/that Prime is under the power of AO. Same with the other deities that were/are multisphereic.
Look at it like national boundaries. Say that you're a multinational company. The branch that operates in the US has to operate by US rules. The branch that operates in Canada has to operate by Canadian rules. The Japanese branch has to operate by Japanese laws... And so on. Canada can pass laws saying that companies there have to do certain things, but those laws would have no effect on the US branch. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 17:07:46
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, that's kind of strange about deities and Overlords - I mean, Lolth only has to pay lip service to Ao in FR world - and then do crazy machinations in the other planes she dwells in. I think it's all just a jumble if Gods rule over more than one plane as it is.
C-Fb
If you are using 2e's planes, that's right. :) However, the named beings in the new cosmologies are not the same named beings in the other cosmologies. I.E, in 2e Lloth was Lloth everywhere and there was just one. Now Greyhawk's Lloth is not the same Lloth in FR, except that they share the same name. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 17:05:16
quote:
Originally posted by Kianna
But that doesn't make any sense. Why would Ao rule over the FR gods in Realmspace...but not any other space if that SAME pantheon ruled there as well?
Because that other sphere/prime might have it's own overpower, which is not AO. AO has no influence on say Mielikki, who was the same Mielikki of the Finnish pantheon, when she is not in Realmspace/that Prime. Only her incarnation in Realmspace/that Prime is under the power of AO. Same with the other deities that were/are multisphereic. |
| Feanor |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 15:31:51
Ao's master could be an entity who has in his care the planes. After all, Ao's responsibility is Realmspace, but the multiverse is much more than the space.
For instance, Guide to Hell speaks of the true nature of Asmodeus, the Lord of Hells : he is in the fact the evil aspect of law. The Twin Serpents, Jazirian and Ahriman, were the mightiest Champions of Law and they were unstoppable when they worked together. They created the Grest Ring, shaped the planes and set their borders and defined the laws which will rule them. But they had a disagreement where the center of the planes should be : Ahriman favored Baator, Jazirian favored Mount Celestia. Things turn violently and the twin serpents tore apart : Ahriman fell in the Nine Hells, Jazirian went to Mount Celestia and no center of the universe was chosen. The planes not stretched up to infinity.
Both Jazirian and Ahriman were weakened by their struggle. They had invested a great deal of their power in defining the Outer Planes and were much diminished in the aftermath of their battle, because they left much of their power dispersed among the planes. Is this raw energy that holds the Outer Planes together in the Great Ring.
And, btw, both Ahriman (now known as Asmodeus) and Jazirian prefer to pose as something less than they are. Ahriman is known as the ruler of Hell, while Jazirian is known as the god of the couatl and that is enough for both of them.
I don't say that the being who is Ao's interlocutor in Waterdeep is one of those two, but is quite clear (for me, at least) that both Ahriman and Jazirian are much mightier than Ao himself. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 15:11:00
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Kianna
DM = Ao. I like that.
Technically, if those FR pantheons were found in other crystal spheres (say like ones you make up yourself) Ao would then be overlord there as well.
No, AO's boss = The DM. :)
And no, AO is only for FR's Sphere/Prime. :) He has no interest, and power, outside of that Sphere/Prime.
I agree with you, Kuje. When I read the Avatar Trilogy, I got the impression that the mysterious "Master" that Ao addresses in the end represents all Dungeon Masters  |
| Kianna |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 14:51:44
But that doesn't make any sense. Why would Ao rule over the FR gods in Realmspace...but not any other space if that SAME pantheon ruled there as well? |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 14:35:58
Well, that's kind of strange about deities and Overlords - I mean, Lolth only has to pay lip service to Ao in FR world - and then do crazy machinations in the other planes she dwells in. I think it's all just a jumble if Gods rule over more than one plane as it is.
C-Fb |
| Khaa |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 14:04:57
Odd, very odd. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 13:33:45
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
I read the War of the Souls (dragonlance) trilogy, and in the end Paladine (the overgod of good gods) mentions that there is a being that is above him (and no, it's not Chaos). So this is my theory, Ao's boss = dragonlance gods' boss.
Errr... no. Remember, in 3e, the Realms pantheon is completely separated from other campaign settings, as is the cosmology itself. In your instance, Ao cannot have any influence over the Krynnish pantheon because there are no longer any 2e-style cosmological connections like there were in the days of the Great Wheel.
And not to divert further but, we already know of the being who is above Ionthas (Chaos)... It's/he's referred to as the Highgod and it's/he's the creator of Krynn, the gods and almost everything else in the DL cosmology. The Highgod came when there was naught but the void. This omnipotent being fashioned a beautiful new world and also gods to govern over this world. The Highgod guided his godlings in the new world and then left it in their hands. Once Krynn was completed, the Highgod withdrew from the world, and watched his creations from afar. The Highgod has no avatars, since he never appears in the mortal realm. The Highgod also has practically no followers, since almost no-one knows of his/her existence, except for the gods themselves. With the wanderings of Valthonis, it seems possible that more may be discovered about this great entity. The Highgod loves creation, and the only time he/she would ever take an active role upon Krynn, would be to prevent it's final destruction.
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| Talanfir Swiftfeet |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 12:00:05
I read the War of the Souls (dragonlance) trilogy, and in the end Paladine (the overgod of good gods) mentions that there is a being that is above him (and no, it's not Chaos). So this is my theory, Ao's boss = dragonlance gods' boss.
What kind of names do other D&D setting overgods have? And is there any mention of these overgods having someone above them? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 03:46:25
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Kianna
DM = Ao. I like that.
Technically, if those FR pantheons were found in other crystal spheres (say like ones you make up yourself) Ao would then be overlord there as well.
No, AO's boss = The DM. :)
And no, AO is only for FR's Sphere/Prime. :) He has no interest, and power, outside of that Sphere/Prime.
Exactly!
Kianna, see my planar explanation addition to the Candlekeep Code of Conduct in my sig for more information about the relevance of the FR pantheon as it is in 3e when compared to other TSR/WotC settings.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 02:38:52
quote:
Originally posted by Kianna
DM = Ao. I like that.
Technically, if those FR pantheons were found in other crystal spheres (say like ones you make up yourself) Ao would then be overlord there as well.
No, AO's boss = The DM. :)
And no, AO is only for FR's Sphere/Prime. :) He has no interest, and power, outside of that Sphere/Prime. |
| Kianna |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 02:33:22
DM = Ao. I like that.
Technically, if those FR pantheons were found in other crystal spheres (say like ones you make up yourself) Ao would then be overlord there as well. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 01:50:46
quote:
Originally posted by Magus Rages
Sorry, fellow Scribes for reawakening an old scroll.
I had read through the Avatar Series some time ago and had been wondering about Ao's role in universe of Toril, so these are my questions:
1) If Ao is the master of the gods on Toril, does it mean he has power and authority over the non-Faerunian Pantheons inclusive of the elven, dwarven, halfling, Mulhorandi, The Celestial Beuracracy, The Maztican Pantheon?
2) Ao controls only the universe around and Toril only, right? He has no influence over the oher worlds, so if this is true, it seems that there is a overgod for each world.
3) Also, it was mentioned that Ao's master is a Luminous Being of Light itself, so it appears to me that the Luminous Being seems to be a kind of intermediate or "middle-manager" between the Light and Ao and the other overgods, so what's fellow scribes thought on this matter? Then it appears that the whole Multiverse is created by somebody else other than Ao.
1) Yes, in current lore he controls ALL the pantheons of Toril and FR's crystal sphere or Prime Material.
2) Yes, he controls just FR's crystal sphere, if you use 2e's planes, or FR's Prime if you use 3/3.5e's.
3) TSR basically led us to believe that AO's boss was the DM. :) |
| Magus Rages |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 01:32:59
Sorry, fellow Scribes for reawakening an old scroll.
I had read through the Avatar Series some time ago and had been wondering about Ao's role in universe of Toril, so these are my questions:
1) If Ao is the master of the gods on Toril, does it mean he has power and authority over the non-Faerunian Pantheons inclusive of the elven, dwarven, halfling, Mulhorandi, The Celestial Beuracracy, The Maztican Pantheon?
2) Ao controls only the universe around and Toril only, right? He has no influence over the oher worlds, so if this is true, it seems that there is a overgod for each world.
3) Also, it was mentioned that Ao's master is a Luminous Being of Light itself, so it appears to me that the Luminous Being seems to be a kind of intermediate or "middle-manager" between the Light and Ao and the other overgods, so what's fellow scribes thought on this matter? Then it appears that the whole Multiverse is created by somebody else other than Ao. |
| elven_songstress |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 19:30:21
Yes that sounds about right :D |
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