| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 20:54:51
Atonement is a cleric spell and I suppose it is not just saying the words of a prayer, it also includes a quest to make sure that the fallen one is worthy of atonement.
My question is, fellow scribes, how hard this quest should be.
In my game I have a very unexperienced player paladin. He is a 2nd lv paladin of Helm. But he is fallen now nothing but the fact of he is unexperienced and acted a little dull. Maybe I was wrong to make him fallen because of a single fault ( but a major one because the behavior is completely against the doctrins of Helm and he insisted about his rights to act like that) however that was my judgement.
Now he regrets and prays and also trys as hard as he can but I m a little bit hasitated about if he needs a quest for atonement or not.
If you think he does please help me how hard I ought to do that quest.
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| 17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 15 Oct 2004 : 10:04:36
Well met
Ahem  Let's get back to the discussion forthwith, scribes... unless ye think there is no Realmslore left to research?  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 22:29:38
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Oh, so it's my fault that I kept consistant to my character portrait since day one? 
No problem, Forlorn.
Indeed, it is all your fault! How dare you not change your user icon twice a day!  |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 21:07:21
Oh, so it's my fault that I kept consistant to my character portrait since day one?
No problem, Forlorn. |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 08:40:13
My apologies, Bookwrym. I don't know how I did that kind of mistake.
Sorry, and thank you again. I m truly ashamed   
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| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 07:38:09
That's right you identity thief...
Don't you recall the headaches we gave poor ol' Mournblade... He worked so hard to unravel those old scrolls where we each followed one another, post after post... 
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 06:53:55
Oh ho ho! So that's how it is, eh? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 05:53:31
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
First . . . who's Sage?
Especially since I don't actually recall posting in this scroll. I'll admit my memory isn't what it used to be, but I've had nothing to say on the topic of atonement in the Realms.
Perhaps Forlorn remembers back to a time at Candlekeep when you originally "borrowed" my avatar image for your profile here... 
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 23:03:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, would say yes, since the paladin should know what he's protecting. If it's illegal, then he's breaking the law.
A paladin can only lose his status by deliberate action. If he makes a mistake that isn't his fault, he's still a paladin. So if he rescues a woman and helps her escape a city with the corrupt watch on her heels, only to find out a week later that she was a cold-blooded murderer caught in the act, he's still a paladin. His god, goddess, or personal code of honor may require him to hunt her down, and he may be blaming himself when he finds other people killed because of her, but otherwise he's unchanged.
Sounds on the surface like a good adventure idea for a low-level paladin, but first you need a way to get past the paladin's detect evil special ability.
Now, if in a problem like that he didn't check some facts -- like why her dress was all bloody, perhaps -- and just accepted her word, that would be grounds for a loss of paladin status. Similarly, on that ship, if he suspected that illegal activity was going on, but didn't do everything to check, he should get a wack on the head from his patron. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 22:56:25
First . . . who's Sage?
Second, if you hire a paladin, you are one of two people: you're either sure he'll side with you, or you're incredibly stupid.
Remember, the paladin is like the paragon of police officers. They're rare enough, and famous enough, that anyone who hires one should know exactly what they're hiring. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 22:36:15
quote:
Originally posted by Forlorn
Thanks Sage, you really cleared up some points.
But I have a question.
If a paladin of Helm is protecting a ship as his choosen duty, can he decide to search the ship without any approval of a supervisor or the captain because he thought there may be something suspicious.
And can he you these kinds of initiative?
I, personally, would say yes, since the paladin should know what he's protecting. If it's illegal, then he's breaking the law. |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 21:04:15
Thanks Sage, you really cleared up some points.
But I have a question.
If a paladin of Helm is protecting a ship as his choosen duty, can he decide to search the ship without any approval of a supervisor or the captain because he thought there may be something suspicious.
And can he you these kinds of initiative? |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 06:55:54
My suggestion is to encourage him to play his character as humbled. He's become aware that his power wasn't god-given, but god-granted, and there's a difference. Now he'll be plagued with doubt at times, searching to find what right and wrong actually mean. He'll become spiritual, and by that I don't mean shouting "for the glory of Helm!" every time he swings his sword. He has to see himself as a servant of Helm, Helm's church, and all people without evil in their hearts. For a time, he may try to do as much good as possible, only to find that even a paladin can't be everywhere, that even a paladin has to pick his battles. Confront him with moral ambiguity -- even something as small as stabing someone in the back during a battle. Perhaps you should look into an honor system (I don't mean the no-cheating-on-your-tests one), so that the player can see how his actions are affecting overall play.
Overall, a paladin is a holy warrior, and needs to strike a balance between "holy" and "warrior." Laws have a reason, and he must obey them. He must never act on impulse, but only with reflection and guidence from Helm. A paladin can't be indecisive, though, and must act when there is need. A paladin's life is one of absolutes -- absolute law, versus absolute chaos; absolute good versus absolute evil. He must promote good and order wherever he goes, but always keep in mind that a dead paladin can't do anything.
I hope this helps. |
| Sourcemaster2 |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 21:31:25
Here's a snippet of technicality from the SRD:
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
and another:
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
Those are obviously just basic descriptions of "falling" and the ways to make up for it, but it's not too tricky to use them for something interesting. Just look over Helm's ethos and consider the character's personality and/or actions. You mentioned him acting in ways counter to Helm's doctrins, so go with that. That may help with the lack of experience, but I doubt even Alaundo knows a cure for the DM-dreaded curse of dullness. |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 00:54:09
Yes that's a very god example but Sturm Brightblade from Dragginglance would not survive in realms for a week, for me at least:))).
But you are right he is the best example for the simple rpg interested player how a paladin acts.
I think of some quest s now, thank for the help esp Arion
but I also produce a lot of questions especially about my dming. How many mistakes can make a paladin and in what condition he or she becomes fallen?
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 22:37:33
I think Arion Elenim's advice to be quite good.
And an army of undead doesn't necessarily need to be a lot of powerful undead. A couple dozen skeletons, and a ghoul or two, would seem an army to the average farmer, but a group of adventurers would walk right thru them.
As for acting like a paladin... Unfortunately, I'm not recalling many examples in fiction. If he's familiar with the Chronicles Trilogy of the Dragginglance books, you could suggest he base his character off of Sturm Brightblade. Failing that, you could go with the archetypical Knights of the Round Table. |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 21:26:40
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I think that you now have a great opportunity to show a newbie gamer what his class is all about. Played appropriately, the PC may gain a great deal of insight about what it means to be a paladin at all.
I say give him the quest of atonement. Make it fairly simple - straight forward and to the point. Something like "recruit a party of adventurers and rescue the sacred item". I'd pepper it with lots of undead, giving him the chance to miss those skills that would let him walk over them. Upon touching the item (chalice, tome, whatever), powers and favor are restored, giving him the ability to slay the final monster (twisted, skeletal mage, necromancer, whatever).
While this might not seem epic, it would definitely accomplish what you're looking for...
Hope this helps!
Thanks for your reply,that is something like I thought, but the fella is just 2 lvs and he has friends that may help him as well.
Wouldn't that be too hard, I mean destroying an undead army and the undead summoned them?
But on the other way that sould be hard, and should be good also.
I have an other question maybe not veryrelated to the topic but anyway, I hope Alaundo will not hit me with some empty tomes, I find it hard to make the paladin understand what his duties are. He cannot feel like a paladin. How can I make him understand how a paladin acts?
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| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 21:03:41
I think that you now have a great opportunity to show a newbie gamer what his class is all about. Played appropriately, the PC may gain a great deal of insight about what it means to be a paladin at all.
I say give him the quest of atonement. Make it fairly simple - straight forward and to the point. Something like "recruit a party of adventurers and rescue the sacred item". I'd pepper it with lots of undead, giving him the chance to miss those skills that would let him walk over them. Upon touching the item (chalice, tome, whatever), powers and favor are restored, giving him the ability to slay the final monster (twisted, skeletal mage, necromancer, whatever).
While this might not seem epic, it would definitely accomplish what you're looking for...
Hope this helps! |
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