| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 22 Sep 2004 : 21:10:50
Hi loreseekers,
Here's an article that details new spells for the Red Knight faith: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040915a
Now, I was wondering if the author forgot to create an "Initiate of Red Knight" feat for these... if we follow the new design guidelines outlined in PGtoF, there would be a need for such a feat, yes? or am I way off in the left field on this one? |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 25 Sep 2004 : 05:12:44
Wow! I really like the "Variant 2" you came up with on the thread you URL'ed for us... "Initiate spells are on the regular cleric spell list, but those who take the Initiate of X feat can cast those spontaneously."
This is genius man, and it's going straight into my campaign, as of... NOW!   |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 25 Sep 2004 : 05:04:49
Originally, the domain spells took care of diversifying the cleric's spell selection. The problem is, if you want to place new cleric spells within that system, you either need to:
1) Change the domain spell lists all the time, as new cleric spells are invented, replacing core spells by the new FR-specific spells; or
2) Invent new domains, and then reshuffle all the gods' domains...
I don't like any of the above... As we saw with "Complete Divine" and its list of new domains, one is left to wonder, "Which FR god will now get this domain?"
PGtoF did a good job at telling us which god earned the Exalted and Vile domains published in the said books, but then again, it's not a perfect solution due to the imbalance this creates in the pantheons.
Which is why, in the end, I tend to react favorably to the Initiate Feats... althought it's not a perfect solution, it does not throw chaos in the core system by introducing new domains all the time. It gives people who wants more spell selection the ability to do so by spending a feat. It's clean. However, I agree that it's not perfect, and that a little more work and playtest should go into this new system in order to ensure it's balanced. One should not feel better taking an Initiate feat than taking a metamagic feat: right now I wholeheartedly agree that any cleric I'd be playing would go for the Initiate feats first... the munchkin in me is happy, but the cosmic judge in me is gnashing his teeth... |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 25 Sep 2004 : 03:39:32
Ah, no, that's not what I meant. In fact, it's not even what I said. What I was asking was if varients of the cleric class modified to each faith would be feasible. Perhaps a "secret" (as you're calling it) spell or two, but I'd prefer something tied to other things. For instance, a feat might have an easier prerequisite (or a harder one) for the clerics of one faith. Or some feats might work differently for such clerics. Or some feats that are only open to these varient clerics -- an example off the top of my head would be a cleric of Kossuth being eligable for Energy Resistance X (fire).
There are plenty other ideas that don't depend on feats, of course, but that was the main one I was thinking of. |
| seankreynolds |
Posted - 25 Sep 2004 : 03:04:16
{Anyway, as to the Initiate feats, I thought the logic was that those spells were more powerful than other regular spells of the same level.}
For the versions presented in Magic of Faerun, they're balanced against any other spell of the same level. In other words, the original MoF versions (i.e. my versions) are perfectly acceptable (in mechanics terms) for any faith at the levels listed in MoF (thematically they may not be appropriate ... you wouldn't see Sharrans casting some of the moon spells of Loviatans casting /favor of Ilmater/, but I think you know what I mean).
I haven't read over the PGtF in detail so I don't know if they changed any of those spells.
{Then again, each initiate feat does not grant the same powers and the same amount of exclusive spells, so the logic ain't exactly based on science in the first place.}
True.
{But am I to understand that you had indeed written an Initiate feat for these spells?}
No. Garen and I had discussed it for a series of articles on the site but the current thought coming from the brand managers is that rules content should go in books, and initiate feats are definitely rules content. Knowing that ahead of time, I didn't create an initiate feat for the RK.
Note that there's a thread on my boards discussing different and better ways to handle the initiate feat rules, here's the URL:
http://p082.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm2.showMessage?topicID=892.topic
{At least, did they tell you which product will contain the feat?}
AFAIK there are no hard plans for such a feat, at least not in any book I'm working on.
{if so, will you make these spells slightly more powerful, to keep with the logic we got in the PGtoF?}
No, as I don't like the way the initiate feat system currently works. Right now if Ilmater (or one of his priests) comes up with a great spell for his followers, there's a strong game-design push to restrict it just to that faith by putting it on an initiate feat list. Not only does that make it harder for Ilmataran priests to get that spell (there are only so many feats a character can take, after all), it makes it hard for the other two faiths in the Triad to share that spell. It also brings up a weird question of: if the initiate feat is balanced as of right now, what happens after a year or two of products have introduced more Ilmataran spells ... do you just add them to the spell list for that initiate feat? Or do you have to create yet another initiate feat to cover those other Ilmataran spells? In the long term you could end up with 5 different Ilmataran initiate feats, and only the highest-level priest of Ilmater might know all five of the 1st-level Ilmataran spells ... which doesn't make sense, as Ilmater would want all of his priests to know them, right?
Better to just balance the spells against core (like we were told to do with all FR stuff when I was still at WotC) than introduce a power creep and then have to introduce a dampener on that power creep.
Plus it's already tough enough to introduce a new divine spell ... you have to treat it as an unusual magical writing according to the 3.5 PH which means you need to spend time making Spellcraft checks until you understand it. Why add a HUGE barrier -- a feat -- to that process?
{I'll admit to you that I like the Initiate feats idea, clerics having nothing to spend their feats on and all...}
Wow, I'll just have to disagree with you on that one. ;)
{However, and I can't quite put my finger on it, I find them fishy... like they could be slightly imbalanced in some cases... a la Spellfire kind of imbalanced...}
Ohohhooo, I'll have to disagree with you about spellfire being imbalanced, too. :)
{In order to solve the problem that the Initiate system attempts to address, what would you say to using the kit system (now referred to as varients)?}
By this do you mean, "The Ilmataran cleric has a different spell list from the core cleric, mainly in that it has the Ilmataran spells on it the core list doesn't?"
If that's what you mean, no, I don't think that's a good idea. If the arcane spell Bigby's clenched fist is fine as a clr8 spell, assuming you name it for your own deity when you cast it, then there's no reason why a spell that does X at level Y isn't suitable in *game mechanics terms* for any cleric. We don't say "Kossuth is the god of fire, so his priests have access to special fire spells that do more damage than other fire spells of that level." No, we give Kossuth the Fire domain, which gives clerics who take it +1 caster level for fire spells, and now Kossuth's clerics of his fire aspect are better using _any_ fire spell than your typical cleric, and we don't need to introduce a special list of Kossuth-only spells to do it. It's simpler.
NOT that I have any problem with a faith having a set of special spells that only they know. I mean, it would be cool if the Lathander had a special form of the searing light spell that was a higher level and did even more damage to undead, and the only reason it's stayed a secret is that nobody outside the faith has ever seen it cast (except the undead it has vaporized) so nobody has thought to invent it. But if some other faith decides to invent that spell, they should be able to invent it at that exact same level and damage because the spell level defines what the spell is capable of, not what god the spell's power comes from. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 05:31:45
quote:
Originally posted by seankreynolds
Oh, and I don't like how they did the inititae feat mechanic anyway, so I presented them in the same way Magic of Faerūn did: the spells originated with that faith, but mechanically there's no reason another deity couldn't grant that same spell.
In order to solve the problem that the Initiate system attempts to address, what would you say to using the kit system (now referred to as varients)? |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 22 Sep 2004 : 22:14:36
Hey SKR! nice to see you visit these boards! I tried to go over your own boards to ask this to you, but the thing rejected my login/password. I tried re-registering, but it sent me a message saying that one user had the same User Name (i.e. me!)
So I then used the "Forgot my password" request, thinking I might have forgotten the password, entered my User Name ( Purple Dragon Knight ) and it sent me an email with the password I had originally used in my first attempt...
Went back to your boards, tried that again, no deal...
Anyway, as to the Initiate feats, I thought the logic was that those spells were more powerful than other regular spells of the same level. Then again, each initiate feat does not grant the same powers and the same amount of exclusive spells, so the logic ain't exactly based on science in the first place.
But am I to understand that you had indeed written an Initiate feat for these spells? At least, did they tell you which product will contain the feat? if so, will you make these spells slightly more powerful, to keep with the logic we got in the PGtoF? I'll admit to you that I like the Initiate feats idea, clerics having nothing to spend their feats on and all... (well, assuming you don't use Complete Divine, which has some insanely good feat options for clerics) However, and I can't quite put my finger on it, I find them fishy... like they could be slightly imbalanced in some cases... a la Spellfire kind of imbalanced... |
| seankreynolds |
Posted - 22 Sep 2004 : 21:31:37
Oh, and I don't like how they did the inititae feat mechanic anyway, so I presented them in the same way Magic of Faerūn did: the spells originated with that faith, but mechanically there's no reason another deity couldn't grant that same spell. |
| seankreynolds |
Posted - 22 Sep 2004 : 21:28:41
R&D didn't want the RK's initiate feat defined in a web article, they wanted it to be in one of the book. Long story, frustrating, just accept it and move on....
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