| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Sourcemaster2 |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 02:41:48
A cleric's Power, actually. The Realms have always been mage-heavy, something I like, by the way, but with all the archwizards, Chosen, and so on, we see relatively few powerful clerics. Why is this? If so many wizards (comparatively) can rise to great power, why not clerics? Have they traveled to another plane to better serve their god? Are they in seclusion to meditate and pray? Besides Fzoul and Cadderly, there aren't more than a few mighty priests, and that just doesn't seem right. |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Aug 2004 : 03:01:41
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Especially for during the witch hunts and duck weighings of the eighties
Nice Monty Python reference!  |
| Karesch |
Posted - 21 Aug 2004 : 02:47:50
indeed, there are a number of webpages dedicated to "informing" everyone of how evil and misguided DnD is and that it'll send you straight to the deepest pits of Baalor.   but yes, 'tis something to do with those evils of polytheism, and the evils of "believing" in magic. Because you know how playing DnD *makes* you believe in magic...  Oh well, such is life. Back to the topic however, before that dreaded staff of the irritated moderator comes into play and we all get beaten 
K |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 21 Aug 2004 : 00:50:58
I believe yo umay have just hit the nail on the head.
Especially for during the witch hunts and duck weighings of the eighties when dnd(and the realms) had a lot of it's development done. I have theorized this before as well. |
| Karesch |
Posted - 21 Aug 2004 : 00:20:52
I agree that they haven't recieved very much coverage, which is their ultimate downfall, and the reasoning behind that I think, is the whole "tabooness" of incorporating into a modern game, concepts of polytheism and the like. As it stands, the majority of devoutly religious people come from monotheastic religions that preach that dabbling in anything polytheastic is wrong. Thus, to avoid offending people, clerics haven't really recieved much push. They've sort of just coasted in the background. They're there, for any who are interested in playing them, but they're not overt, so as not to offend people who would think it sacriligious. Mayhap I'm wrong, but, that's one plausibility as to why they haven't been given as much coverage as the noble fighters/paladins and the "evil" rogues, and the good and evil mages... As I said, mebe I'm wrong, but I think it bears consideration...
K |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 20 Aug 2004 : 17:00:42
Well met!
Personally, I think that the generic cleric is potentially every bit as useful, and essential, as any other class. However, I agree with those who have said or implied that they have not received the same attention as the wizard. Perhaps I missed some early supplements, but it is clear that the wizards spell list was developed and expanded quite a bit from basic D&D to the end of 2nd Ed. Looking at the priest spell list however, it is virtual unchanged in comparison.
However, looking over the spells open to priests and comparing them with that of wizards it seems to me that, more than just being superior healers, priest have the potnetial to be superior necromancers and diviners than low to mid level mages. One can only imagine how much so if the cleric spell list was expanded to the extent of the mage.
Also, considering that we are not usually talking about generic clerics, I see no reason why a specialty priest of a battle god could not content with anyone short of a full fledged fighter. I always allow such priest to take styles and specialize at double the cost. Add battle magic to that and you have a potential power house capable of going toe to toe with just about anyone.
Of course, modern culture seems to be moving more and more away from anything more sophisticated then highly individualized spirituality, and generally tends to look disfavourably upon organized religions and priesthoods. So, if most folk don't get clerics, then it is unlikely they will ever receive the kind of exposure and developement that those of us who do get them might desire. And come to think of it, that might actually be a godsend ....
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| tauster |
Posted - 20 Aug 2004 : 14:23:56
i think "the role of [insert class name] has less to do with the the abilities of the class than many seem to think. like almost all parties, all groups i dm (and play in, for that matter) have at least one cleric, and most of those clerics tend to either lead the group (by their actions- not because they are the proclaimed leader!) or are an integral and important part of the group.
as dm, i see it as my "duty" never to neglect any character. in case of clerics, here are some methods i used and still use:
- give the cleric an important item that only he can use or that should be used by a divine agent. example: the priest of shaundakul wields finslayer, an intelligent sword that was forged to battle kuo-toa (night below- campaign, anyone?). the party found it on their way the underdark, and the sword chose the priest as itīs new wielder. it has several very useful abilities, both spell-like and mundane. giving it to the priest instead of the fighter (who already shines in every battle) goes a long way to ensure that he has no underpart in the party.
- link the parties overall goal (whether they know it or not) to the faith of the cleric. example: in another campaign, one character died and failed her resurrection save (2nd edition!). the other had to go through hell (or the abyss, to be accurate) to save their friend, and unwittingly got involved in the last parts of a centuries- old scheme of erevan illesere- the god of the parties cleric. suddenly, the role of the priest wasnīt a minor one anymore...
- at the start of a new campaign, try to have all characters be likeminded when it comes to religion. have one following tymora, another one brandobaris, the third erevan illesere (or tyr, helm, torm, ilmater, or azuth, denier and mystra, etc.). they donīt have to be clerics or ardent followers, just let them name the god they take as patron.
tauster |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 20 Aug 2004 : 07:03:57
Even with the current ruleset where clerics CAN be melee and magical powerhhouses, clerics are still often relegated to a role of healmoneky, or buffer.
But look more at the age when much of the writing that shaped the realms as we know it was done. At that time the cleric could just never come close to the melee power of a fighter, as they never got the multiple attacks or specialization neccesary to do so. Neither did they have the backstab and skillset of a rogue, or the nuke capability of the mage.
Clerics were a primarily support role, that is what they did best. Also, how many players want to be the pious and devout priest rather than powerful fighter, daring rogue, or mysterius wizard? As integral and important to the party as a cleric might be, the other classes often have more of an appeal.
Even in your description yo uhail them as having magical might near a wizard's, and combat skills near that of a warrior, implying that such things are a major draw to the class. HHowever, the respective classes do both better.
Fact is, I enjoy a good(not neccesarily in alignement, but you know what I mean) cleric charcter. Be it in the grou p of plaers on the far side of the screen in a game I DM, or in my party or even myself, a cleric can be loads of fun to play. They are rife with roleplaying oppurtunities, and as yo uhave pointed out, can be quite good in a battle.
However, especially wit hthe younger players that tend to makke up the bulk of dnd players at the various stages of it's evolution, clerics tend to be a less than desirable class.
One might even argue, that before clerics were more individually powerful, playing one was a matter of... faith. |
| Karesch |
Posted - 20 Aug 2004 : 02:03:04
Cap'n Charlie, I beg do differ with you on this matter. I know, myself, I have very rarely had a party that did not include a stalwart cleric, and they're always to be found diving into the fray with the fighters without hesitation. I think most parties are very grateful to have a cleric in their midst, and I don't think playing clerics is a dull role, as they have similar fighting prowess to any warrior, not quite as high as a fighter or paladin, but close enough, and they have the ability to cast whilst wearing heavy armor, thus, no drawbacks on being able to be clad in heavy armor to dive into battle, and still able to peel off spell after spell when they have a good concentration ability. So I cannay say that clerics are an undesireable role.
I agree that they are not hyped up in literature and the like, which is a shame, but as far as actual gameplay goes, I don't see how they are a "short straw" or "undesireable" as they have fine fighting abilities, and also are typically found to be quite busy healing their friends during and or after a great fight. Thus they have much to do, both in combat, and after combat.
K |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 10:59:57
I believe we see less high end clerics(or really that much of any non supporting cast cleric NPCS) is due more to the seemingfact that most find wizards far more interesting.
Basically, I say that most of those that write in the Realms would rather write about wizards, warriors, and rogues, rather than clerics. THe wizard has a great mystique passed down through the ages, making them a staple in the hearts and minds of writer and reader alike. Ditto with the Warrior, whose presence is even larger than the wizard, though often les... "magical". THE rogue as well plays a part integral to fantasy in many's eyes. be it from tales Robin Hood, Fafhrd, or Shadowspawn.
The cleric often falls by the wayside in tales, and books. THis would leave them out of the forefront of the minds eyye when thinking of fantasy. Anyone can usually name fabulus representatives of the first three types from the top of theri head, even non fantasy fans: Conan, Lancelot, Hercules: powerful warriors. Gandalf, Merlin, and even Elminster: Wise and sagely wizards, cloaked in mystery,(and often having power over others despite physical weakness, possibly why they are especially appealing to the average page turner).
How many characters fitting the clerical archetype can you name? Especially from folklore and myth, not fantasy? They tend to be sparse, at best, and often uninteresting, or too specific to a real world religion to pass far beyond it.
ALso look at how the role of cleric in most parties: Support and healer. Most times the role of cleric is the short straw, for the group, an undesirable role.
Is it any wonder that clerics are sparse in the realms? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 06:56:21
quote:
Originally posted by Icewolf
I'm sure at least one of the reasons you don't hear much about powerful clerics is because no matter how powerful they are, they are still in service to a deity. All their power comes from that source, and as such, the glory is given to their god(dess).
Not only that, but some deities are given to bouts of extreme paranoia. They must constantly watch that their "backs" for the assassin's blade... always fearful that one of their chosen (not to be confused with the Mystran term "Chosen") followers doesn't rise up in power and then attempt to "knock" them off of their celestial perch.
Some powers like to keep a tight reign on the divine energy they allow their followers to utilise simply because it could reduce their abilities should a rival power come visiting.
And finally, we can assume that Ao has put a "cap" on the amount of divine energy available to the various powers followers. Too much divine energy coruscating around the Realms could have unpredictable consequences... Ao's restriction on this, could simply be a protective measure.
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| Karesch |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 03:24:30
Indeed, as a mid-teen level character, they've the ability to deal with moderate fights in a way almost equivical to that of a fighter, as they have a good att bonus and typically good armor (I would hope by mid teens one would have aquired good armour) so they're well adapted to being able to lead in a straight out fight, if there were to be an orc tribe nearby or somesuch thing, and well, by those levels their casting abilities should include things like Heal and Mass Heal by 15th level, so, yes, they should be able to tend to a villes needs as far as healing injuries and the like goes. All in all, a mid-teens level cleric is quite well suited to caring for a towns needs, and one would hope, should have the.... wisdom .... to govern a town. However, one would still think that at least a FEW clerics are still part of adventuring parties later in life, and would attain higher levels. I mean, an elven cleric would live in good health for a considerable amount of time I would hope, and with all that time, I can't comprehend that none have attained levels at least breaching into the 20's... but yet, I've never witnessed one myself. Who knows... mebe they transcend...
K |
| Sourcemaster2 |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 03:11:45
That's an insightful take of the situation, Karesch. I hadn't looked at the clergy in quite that way, as community leaders whose power isn't too dependent on magic. I suppose the teeners have adequate spells to heal about anything, aid in a myriad of situations, and really don't need to be stronger. |
| Karesch |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 03:00:29
I too have seen very few, if any, truely high level clerics. I know there are a few in their mid-high teens, although that is usually an overall character level, not strictly cleric levels. Most that I've seen of any consequence however, seem to be those that run/govern towns and the like. Trying to meet the peoples needs and wants, while also trying to maintain their gods ideals of order. It would almost seem to me, that most clerics, once they get to a moderate level, more or less "retire" into a role of community or church leadership, as opposed to being out and involved with the more active parts of their church of choices actions. I fear to say, that it almost seems that once a cleric reaches into the mid teens in level, they are "put to pasture" so to speak, with their small-moderate flock of faithful, watching over them, caring for their needs, and generally having a more relaxed life. Mayhap I'm wrong, as I'm not as wizened in realmslore as some of our Sages around here, but this has been what I have generally seen.
Could it be that the gods frown upon clerics advancing too far, as their power could conceivably become rivalling, and as such, the gods pressure eachother to keep their clerics moderated...? That, I know is a far fetched theory, but I thought I'd throw it out there for others to comment upon. I wouldn't say 'tis my own belief, merely a possible theory that others might delve into.
K |
| Icewolf |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 02:49:39
I'm sure at least one of the reasons you don't hear much about powerful clerics is because no matter how powerful they are, they are still in service to a deity. All their power comes from that source, and as such, the glory is given to their god(dess).
Edit: Plus, Clerics are usually humble folk by their very nature, so even if they are powerful, they don't really go to advertise it. |
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