| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Vikramaditya |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 17:05:15
Greetings to all,
I was hoping the learned scribes in Candlekeep could help me reconcile the relationship between the Realms and the great wheel cosmology. I realize that WoTC no longer supports Planescape, that this topic has been debated here before, and has strong proponents on either side of the issue, so I apologize in advance for rehashing it.
My stand on this is simple. I'm obviously no expert on the Realms or Planescape, but I WANT my characters in Faerun to experience the glory of the planes. I would like to incorporate as much of what is described in FRCS and PGF into the great wheel, and throw out what does not fit into the wheel. I'm hoping the scribes here could help me fill the gaps in my understanding.
1)From an earlier discussion in these forums:
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2266&whichpage=4&SearchTerms=planescape%2CAND%2Cfaerun%2CAND%2Ccosmology
I was wondering if an updated list had been compiled of Faerunian dieties, and their locations relative to the Great Wheel. I realize that For Duty and Deity describes the various FR gods and their locations on the great wheel. Some of these allocations, however, appear to be at odds with the deity descriptions. (Shaundakul, who’s CN and Tyr, who’s LG in the same plane, at Elysium?). However, the great tree of Faerunian cosmology has been updated in the FRCS and PGF. I don't own PGF; don't intend to, I’ve skimmed it, as my only interest is that it appears to update the regions where Faerunian gods reside. (Tyr, Torm and Illmater in Celestia, for example, which makes more sense than Torm in Celestia and Tyr in Elysium in For Duty and Deity.).
I’m assuming, of course, that all Faerunian gods have their own area of influence within their respective planes. I realize that some gods and areas cannot be easily shoehorned into the great wheel – Bane and the Barrens, for Instance. Have any of the scribes here rationalized these two sources to produce a picture of Faerunian deities relative to the great wheel?
2) How do I understand the Fugue plane in this cosmology? Per PGF, it's a separate plane by itself. In the WotSQ, when the party passes through the plane of infinite portals, they see petitioners dropping from the sky en route to the plane of their deity, and the petitioners of Lolth pass through the astral en route to the plane of their deity. Can I assume that all deceased mortals in the Realms first proceed to the fugue plane as a holding area, then proceed to their deity's area of influence in the great wheel via the astral and become petitioners of their deity, while only the faithless and the false are trapped on the fugue plane? In this case, where is the fugue plane on the great wheel? And why can the faithless and false not rise as petitioners of a plane in the great wheel appropriate to their alignment?
3) Based on For Duty and Deity, one way to go plane hopping from Faerun is to reach the infinite staircase. Other ways of course, include going to the Astral and hopping through the appropriate color pool, or passing through a gate to another plane. Since I'm throwing PgF out the window (to some extent), and assuming Faerun is just another prime material world on the Great wheel, am I wrong in assuming that passing through the astral or a gate would enable travelers to reach any location on the great wheel?
4) The Faerunian cosmology described in the FRCS includes the Abyss and the nine hells, but does not include the Higher Planes. So while the demon princes and arch devils fit easily here, the Angels of the seven heavens are not so easy to understand. PGF chokes on this issue too, saying that Tyr, Torm and Illmater, for instance are *kind* of superior to the angels of the seven heavens. In a world where Faerun is just another Prime world, how do I incorporate the Book of Exalted Deeds into my worldview? Since the people of Faerun are expected to have a patron deity, how do the angels of the heavens fit into this cosmology? Are they separate powers, recognized only by planar travelers to the Realms, Aasimar, etc? Do they ally with Faerunian gods, so a Paladin, for example, can be a Fist of Raziel and a Paladin of Torm?. I've seen this discussed to some extent in another discussion, at:
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1490&SearchTerms=book+of+exalted+deeds
and was hoping for more clarity on this issue. Many Thanks for any insights the learned scribes can provide.
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| 9 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Sarelle |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 15:49:52
1) Both the places specified in the PtGF and their old Great Wheel homes. As in, Osiris' realm would be accessible from both Arborea and Heliopolis. Its still the same realm but its in both places.
2) Fugue Plane is a plane that connects to the FR Material Plane but has no connections to any of the Great Wheel Planes, except possibly somewhere in the Outlands/Sigil. Not sure about the petitioners question - FR god worshipers become petitioners in the FR cosmology, if that is what you mean. But a deity can freely reassign them to the Great Wheel, I guess.
3) The Crown Archons and other non-deific celestial powers are in Celestia, but would spend a lot of time in House of the Triad, via the two planes' various connections, I suppose. Ditto for Guardinals and Elysium/House of Nature and Eladrin and Arvandor/the rest of Arborea.
Hope that helps. Its all just about merging. |
| Vikramaditya |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 14:54:02
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And, I intend to. However, I don't have the time right know. I'll try and get to your questions over the next couple of days...
Ah, Sage! Thank you. Your insights into this frustrating conundrum would be greatly appreciated..
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
Sage and I, and possibly several other Candlekeepers, use both cosmologies, attached to the FR Material Plane.
Sarelle, could I bother you for your insights regarding the merging of these cosmologies, specifically in regard to:
1) The location of the Faerunian Deities on the planes post PGF
2) The location of the Fugue plane, and the creation of petitioners from beings on the prime material.
3) The relative position and worship of the Good Aligned Heavenly powers and the Angels of Celestia, (and concurrently, of the Guardinals and Faerunian Forest Deities..)
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| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 13:43:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wood Elf Ranger
If you want a REALLY complete answer wait for the Sage to come around  I'm sure he will have something to say here sooner or later and it will most likely answer all of your questions and more AND give you twice as many more questions     
And, I intend to. However, I don't have the time right know. I'll try and get to your questions over the next couple of days...
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| Wood Elf Ranger |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 04:28:05
Try Faiths and Pantheons for an updated version though they don't list very many of the monster dieties they do have some.
If you want a REALLY complete answer wait for the Sage to come around I'm sure he will have something to say here sooner or later and it will most likely answer all of your questions and more AND give you twice as many more questions |
| Sarelle |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 23:32:52
Sage and I, and possibly several other Candlekeepers, use both cosmologies, attached to the FR Material Plane. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 22:07:17
quote:
Originally posted by Vikramaditya
What's the difference betwen Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons?
Powers and Pantheons deals with some of the deities of the other "human" pantheons from other nations within Faerun, as well as some of the lesser known Faerun deities. |
| Vikramaditya |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 20:35:49
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
I'd try to find 2e's Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities. They list all the deities of the Faerun pantheons, as well as the Demihuman pantheons and what planes those deities live on in the Wheel/Ring.
I do have Faiths and Avatars, as well as the 3E Defenders of the Faith. What's the difference betwen Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons? Does Powers just repeat the same facts about human gods, or does it contain additional information? I'm not too interested in non human PCs (never played them)..but I guess I can also get DemiHuman Deities to round out the list.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 19:02:20
I agree with kuje31. The first three books he mentioned are, as far as I'm concerned, the definitive source of info on deities in the Realms. The books are quite informative, and rich with lore, unlike the sad imitation we got for third edition.
Further, I don't like the new cosmology, and so I simply disregard it. It's not out of a love of Planescape, it's just that I still fail to see a reason it "needed" to be changed. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 17:57:30
I'd try to find 2e's Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities. They list all the deities of the Faerun pantheons, as well as the Demihuman pantheons and what planes those deities live on in the Wheel/Ring.
Also Planescapes On Hallowed Ground is also a great book for the rest of the deities of the Multiverse.
Other then those, the original Planescape campaign box set is also helpeful. |
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