| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 16:11:10
Well met!
Why is it that treasure hordes always look so massive in pictures, and yet when you actually get around to finding one you're lucky if a lap-dog can curl up on top of the pile? Where are those hordes with hundreds of thousands, or even millions of coins, that are so large some big @$$ dragon can curl up on it? Where? Where!?!?!
the Thief's Fall Guy |
| 22 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lina |
Posted - 22 Jul 2004 : 12:15:20
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Now I know not to invite you over for dinner, Lina! 
(Not that you'd get much for your trouble, anyway.  )
 Free meal? Where?  I'll eat anything as long as it's edible. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 11:41:59
Now I know not to invite you over for dinner, Lina!
(Not that you'd get much for your trouble, anyway. ) |
| Lina |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 11:27:28
If I ever stumbled upon one of those dragon treasure hordes then I'd be set for life. WOOT! NO MORE WORK!!! |
| Karesch |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 00:24:52
 I could just imagine that now. "Here lies noble Karesch, struck down unwittingly by an animated "coin-man" that bestowed negative levels and struck out with devestating magical items"
Wouldn't that just be a good one. Powerful hero tries to take on a known dragon, and is killed by backstabbing coins...
K |
| tauster |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 20:13:47
fantastic suggestion, beowulf!
...and i thought immediately of a vairation of the spell:
the wraiths are no regular undead (as in "bound to the plane of negative energy") but the lifeforce of unsuccessful dragonslayers, trapped within the hoard (or perhaps a certain item somewhere under the *harumph* MOUNTAINS of coins *cough*). they are bound to protect the treasure they once tried to steal, and do so with ferocity. now that they are one with the hoard, they are able to form a "body" consisting of coins, often armed with their former magic weapons or magic items (when going dragonslaying, all but the most dumb arm themself with the most powerful magic they can get their hands on).
i can vividly imagine the scene: the party sneaks around the fringes of the "coin-area" *cough*, cloaked in invisibility-spells and protected against whatever the dragon is known to breath, as suddenly the coins themselve rise and attack them! 
i guess the epitaph on their gravestones will be something like: "killed by coins"... |
| Karesch |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 17:55:36
quite an interesting spell Beowulf, I'll have to scribe it in my scrolls for future reference in use with dragons. I'm sure it should prove a valuable tool in guarding dragon lairs.
K |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 16:40:42
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
there are some spells "out there" that deal with the problem of "draconic dexterity" when it comes to handling small objects. iirc, they are in the 2e draconomicon, cult of the dragon and/or some dragon issues...
but i can imagine that a dragon will have such a "hoard-guard" (thatīs the name of the spell, i believe...) in addition to such spells (or perhaps minions?), or only just for the prestige of having one.
[/quote]
In the CotD sourcebook Dragons have spells that are the equivalent of an unseen servant to help them manage their hrodes. Unfortunately, all "horde guard" (also in the CotD book) does is magically link all of the coinage together so it is a solid chunk.
I created my own "horde guardian" spell for dragons. The intial spell conjures 2-5 Horde Wraiths (as wraiths) which rise up out fo the horde to attack any interlopers who disturb the horde (even by shedding light on it). A portion of the lifeforce of anyone killed by these wraiths are, not surprisingly perhaps, srawn into the horde to create another horde wraith. There is no limit to the number of horde wraiths that might be protecting a horde. |
| Karesch |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 20:31:51
*chuckles* touche Capn, as I was writing it, I was thinking of such options in the back of my head, however, even a bag of holding will fill up... eventually, and who goes to a dragon fight armed with a dozen teleport spells? So chances are, your only going to be able to move a bit of it with the 2 or so teleport spells your group might have ready, right? I mean, if your going to work out the hoards properly for a dragon, your looking at a VAST ammount of treasure. In all likeliness there would be statues of incredible value, literally a ton or more of weapons and armor (from previous attempts on the dragons life) millions of coins, trade bars, trinkets and the like. Dragons are creatures that value wealth above all else. and a Gargantuan Ancient Wyrmling has had a few thousand years to gather and collect a fortune that would rival most kingdoms. Right? So if ever you pitted your characters against such a foe, and they survived, I think it would be fun to leave them racing to pick what they're going to take. Maybe as a final movement to foil the adventurer's the dragon lashed out with it's tail and cracked the ceiling right beneath the lake or river that runs over it's cavern, so now the treasure cavern is filling with acrid water at a moderate rate so the group has to move fast to get what they can before it's submerged. I dunno, there's a wealth of ways you could foil them taking it all, yet still giving them time to get a considerable amount. I just think it's a fun idea, where, they have an overwhealming amount to choose from, but they have to choose, because they can only take what they can carry or get quickly, before it's lost forever.
But hey, thats just my thought
K |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 20:02:14
I cannot honestly believe that that would be a concern for any group of suffucent level to have killed a dragon with such wealth.
What with extradimensional storage spaces, teleport spells, and super sneaky part members taking it to market by the load, while the rest guard the lair, I seriously doubt there will be much waste.
But then again my players had storage space rented for a "hope chest" of sorts where they kept all their captured furniture, rugs, and various finery until the day when they got their own place. SO I am used to hard core scavaging in my game. |
| Karesch |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 19:51:11
Here's just an idea to throw all the DM's out there into a twitch but in the matter's of figuring out a dragon's hoard, here's one that will give your players no end of frustration. Once the dragon has been defeated, give your party a fairly immense list of treasure. In that list, include weights. Now tell your players that they need to figure out how much treasure each player can carry, and thus, what they're going to take with them, with the assumption that they cannot return for another load of treasure because it'll all have been looted already. So now they have the problem of, kicking themselves for bringing too much equipment with them for the fight - thus less capacity for treasure, and choosing from all the absolutely wonderous treasure on hand. Do they take the 2 million worth of trade bars and coins, or do they take the dragonscale to make shields and armor. Do they take the fine gold statue that weighs 50 pounds and is worth a million, or do they take the artifact tower shield... so many choices, and dammit you just can't carry them all take the gold and live like a  or take the weapons and artifacts and adventure like a
K |
| tauster |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 12:39:34
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Oh, by the way, I use overpowered coffee to make my "parchment". 
i tried coffee, but found the effect not as "authentic" as the one you get with overpowered tea. in addition, after a while the whole thing started to molder- which never ever happened when i used black tea.   also, when you arrange the sheets so that some tea-leaves swim above them, youīll get a clearly better texture than i achived with coffee.
quote:
But a dragon's memory is not perfect, adn being able to sit around, playing in the piles of gold(and silver, copper, electrum and iron), while activating the golem aoccasionally to be essentially a helper, to remind him of this and that.
i think i read somewhere that a dragons mind is "laid out" to deal with itīs hoard (handling large numbers, keeping track of where every item lies, where it came from, etc) so to say... also, dragons are a lot more intelligent than we average humans.
quote:
And, a dragon is not quite as manually dextrous as they are lead to believe. THE automaton's function would primarily be to "make the bed" of the dragon while it is out, defend the hoard, and do small matters of maitenence. Affterall, even a magic bow needs to be oiled, and tarnish needs to be polished. ANd a golem could keep entire hoards of coins polished till they shine to the dragon's delite.
there are some spells "out there" that deal with the problem of "draconic dexterity" when it comes to handling small objects. iirc, they are in the 2e draconomicon, cult of the dragon and/or some dragon issues...
but i can imagine that a dragon will have such a "hoard-guard" (thatīs the name of the spell, i believe...) in addition to such spells (or perhaps minions?), or only just for the prestige of having one. |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 08:43:05
quote:
i always thought that THIS is what dragons do between hunting, slumbering and cleaning their teeth: counting their coins, rearranging them, "playing" with them... i donīt think a dragon would charge somebody other with such a pleasureable task...
OH, there is a bifg difference in knowing what you ahve, and how you got it. Sure, big ticket items like swords from would be dragonslayers, and big stuff like the Statue of pure gold from the king of whatnot to get his daughter back.
But a dragon's memory is not perfect, adn being able to sit around, playing in the piles of gold(and silver, copper, electrum and iron), while activating the golem aoccasionally to be essentially a helper, to remind him of this and that.
And, a dragon is not quite as manually dextrous as they are lead to believe. THE automaton's function would primarily be to "make the bed" of the dragon while it is out, defend the hoard, and do small matters of maitenence. Affterall, even a magic bow needs to be oiled, and tarnish needs to be polished. ANd a golem could keep entire hoards of coins polished till they shine to the dragon's delite.
Oh, by the way, I use overpowered coffee to make my "parchment". |
| tauster |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 08:12:06
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Dragons over hte centuries(or millenia!) neede to get to their current size can be assumed to have been through dozens of what humans might term "adventures" that dragons call "day to day life". Is it any real wonder their greedy nature and inherant power leads them to wealth?
Also, due to the fact that htey have been gaining it bit by bit over centuries not even they likely remember when each trinket was added.
a few sessions ago, my players killed a shadowdragon. i had spent countless hours (over a period of several months) with preparing the treasurehoard, altering and re-altering it again and again, until its composition matched the geographic region its owner was active in. after i presented them the four handouts containing the treasure-list (printed on yellowded paper dyed with black tea, illustrated with small pictures of coins, trinkets and baubles) and they started discussing about the individual items, i could lean back, watch them and enjoy it! some of those pieces can be springboards to new adventures (for example solo-adventures that take place whenever our party is not adventureing together). i included among others:
- several ravaged diaries, some of them still attributable to their former owners,
- a "suitcase" made of precious woods and velvet, containing various "tools" needed for the devoted follower of loviatar (think "s&m" ), together with a letter from a youg woman in ordulin (planning to walk off with her lover (the suitcase-owner) after her father (a rich merchant in said city) forbid her to marry or even meet him). they made it, but only until both met an untimely demise at the business-end of the dragons talons...
- several obligations, issued from different people in different cities in cormyr & sembia, but all issued on the same day. (why?)
- several other items that could have personal stories still attached to them
in short: when you as dm are playing with the thought of having the pc fight (and win against) a dragon, take at least the same amount of time for preparing a consistent and reasonable hoard that you (should!) dedicate for developing an intelligent strategy. well... īt wasnīt that short at all...
quote:
IT would be an interesting thing however to have a dragon own a quasi sentient accountant golem, designed to stroke the dragon's ego by recounting where each coin in it's hoard came from.
i always thought that THIS is what dragons do between hunting, slumbering and cleaning their teeth: counting their coins, rearranging them, "playing" with them... i donīt think a dragon would charge somebody other with such a pleasureable task...
another thing that irked me is the neglected influence a dragon has on the economy in its domain: like almost every a) rich, b) highly intelligent and c) greedy individual, he should use his money to invest it in the sorrounding economy: supporting startups (mining operation, gemcuting-shops) employ mages for additional lair-protection or (if he is no spellcaster himself) arcane research, groups of adventurers to procure difficult-to-get things (rare pieces of art, magical items, etc) and so on. the first item every dragon should try to get in his claws is something enabling him to shift its shape so he can freely visit towns and thus reduce his dependence on others. |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 07:11:22
Npcs with adventurer levels are often ghave little or no explanation about their wealth either. It usually boils down to "was an adventurer for several years".
Same thing with nobility. They(authors) do not really need to tell you that through inheritence and taxation the noble amassed wealth and either hoarded it or expanded his holdings into their current state.
Dragons over hte centuries(or millenia!) neede to get to their current size can be assumed to have been through dozens of what humans might term "adventures" that dragons call "day to day life". Is it any real wonder their greedy nature and inherant power leads them to wealth?
Also, due to the fact that htey have been gaining it bit by bit over centuries not even they likely remember when each trinket was added.
IT would be an interesting thing however to have a dragon own a quasi sentient accountant golem, designed to stroke the dragon's ego by recounting where each coin in it's hoard came from. |
| Sarta |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 06:14:16
... and yet very little is ever told about how these dragons actually get all this wealth. Its almost always just assumed that being dragons they get large piles of cash. Very rarely are there actual stories of them getting it to begin with.
I do have to admit that occasionally a dragon is described as having followers who propitiate him or her with loot. There are a few described as having protection rackets. A few others have gained theirs by infiltrating human settlements while polymorphed and accumulating wealth. However, for the most part, it is simply taken for granted.
Sarta |
| VEDSICA |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 04:46:13
I too was one to wonder why dragon hoards were always described to be mounds and mounds of coins and gems and items.Then compared to the treasure types and charts you always recieved pocket change.Well not that small.but you all get the meaning. |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 21:38:33
Dragons are not in line with CR calculations either. They are big ticket monsters, with a battle with one being a fight for your life. At least it should be. Dragon's CR is calcuated with the players having prepared beforehand in mind, an assumption not used with normal monsters.
However, I was always under the assumptions that with a dragon hoard, you were supposed to put enough challenges, traps and guardians between the players and the dragon that by the time it is throw down time all the accumulkated treasure for the prevous challenges can be included in the dragon's hoard to make it more impressive.
If a fight with a drgon is the culmination of an adventure, ther is no reason to not have at around 70%-80% of the treasure of the adventure in the beasts hoard. |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 18:05:15
quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
2,000, 000 + coins .... only a minute fraction of which would be actual gold.
Ahhhhhhhh ..... Those wiley wyrms found amongst the shrewdest of shileds for their hordes .... to hide 50,000 coins of gold and platinum, amidst a veritable haystack of millions of copper. Cursed maggots.  |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 17:55:58
The wife and I just figured "roughly" 2880 Canadian loonies (about the size of a silver dollar) in a 1 square foot space. You could probably spread that out a little to 3 or 4 inches deep, but even so a good comfy bed for a good sized adult red dragon (50x50 ???) would require, what, 2,000, 000 + coins .... only a minute fraction of which would be actual gold.
Ring-giver of the Geats |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 17:41:48
That's something that's bugged me for a long time. The descriptions of dragon hoards have never been in line with the treasure tables... If you do the math, you'd see that the average dragon has barely enough gold for a good pillow. |
| brjr2001 |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 17:36:57
i guess you just have to look lol in campaign's ive been in they overgive me money i remember that i robbed one and it contained more that 400,000 g the actual size of that would take a dumptruck just to get it out |
| tauster |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 16:44:32
an interesting question!
iīd really like to know of how many coins a dragon hoard consists! gold, silver or copper, doesnīt matter, iīm only interested in the quantity. 
take the ones from the 3e draconomicon:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/draco_gallery/77505.jpg or
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/draco_gallery/75674.jpg or
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/draco_gallery/75613.jpg (btw: i really loathe the style of that picture! )
...tīwould be great if someone could do the math for me!  |
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