| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Hymn |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 03:31:34
Do the Orcs in the Realms have a language, like the Elves, and the dwarves etc, that have been published. Or can one assume they are using black speach, ala Mordor? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Hymn |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 22:09:29
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Hymn, that page you linked to is largely fanfic. What we know about Tolkien's Black Speech is here.
As for human languages, although I appreciate Tom Costa's "Speaking in Tongues" in Dragon Annual #4, I don't much use it because yes, most conversations are in Common because it's a sword-and-sorcery convention not to dwell on characters not being able to understand each other. I think the texture of regional dialect is better represented with local phrasing and terminology (in English) than with made-up vocabulary.
I know it is, but it's the more simpler one I have. (Even though it is not entirly correct as you say.) Since people trying to explain Tolkiens language's either don't or go to lengthy grammar discussions. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 14:55:51
Hymn, that page you linked to is largely fanfic. What we know about Tolkien's Black Speech is here.
As for human languages, although I appreciate Tom Costa's "Speaking in Tongues" in Dragon Annual #4, I don't much use it because yes, most conversations are in Common because it's a sword-and-sorcery convention not to dwell on characters not being able to understand each other. I think the texture of regional dialect is better represented with local phrasing and terminology (in English) than with made-up vocabulary. |
| Sarta |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 09:43:41
I would think the correct draconic phrase for warrior would be crunchy-man.
Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Sarta |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 09:26:24
Oddly enough, just this day I was doing some shamefully backlogged campaign work and was using the primer from Dragon 284. Is there any additional words added in the one in the Draconomicon? I only ever quickly scanned it over before I loaned it our.
I was essentially having to flesh out said "place mat" into a fairly expressive lexicon. Fortunately I have the benefit of the doubt since the Draconic used in that issue is not the realms draconic(though I hardly see the need to reinvint the entire wheel when polishibg the hubcap will suffice), and more importantly I can take liberties "regressing" the tounge for the savage lizardfolk.
ONe of the first things I ran into was a lack of the word "warrior". Instead of going for a more literal translation (aryte-sthyr or "war-man") and went for a more appropriate sounding, and more sensical sense the term war might have different beginnings with dragons, "CÆxThyr" or "sword man". Of course interspersed with some nice sound effects, and hisses, and of couirse gestures wherever appropriate.
As I was writing out the dialogue Iwould need translations for, I found that I was beginning to sketch in hand gestures to accompany it, as well as facial gestures later.
All in all, it is a real hassle, I would like to heartily second a request for some more primers, if not at least a decent lexicon. I was especially hoping for a decent Orc primer, as the caverns of the orcish lands(it just sounds right!) is the next stop after the swamp.  |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 06:25:06
Ah, now that's a primer. Certainly better than you'd expect from orcs. 
The section in the Draconomicon is pretty detailed, but I was thinking it wasn't detailed enough by far. Not, at least, if you're going to be using much more Draconic in your campaign than was actually spelled out for you. Of course, it's worlds better than the usual WotC fare for fluff and flavor. Don't you just love that language section in the FRCS? 
I'd like to see a lot more focus put on languages. I'm a bit sick of everyone seeming to speak the same language in the Realms. Is every conversation going on in Common? The only time that languages are mentioned, it seems, are when they're racial. And then it's usually "character X speaks to character Y in the elven language." Rarely do you have them actually saying anything in that language.
Now, reading an entire conversation in another language is hard if you don't know it. Since I can't learn other languages worth diddly, I like translations. But I want some realism. It's like in science fiction where some aliens will speak perfect English even to themselves. I'm thinking more of subtitles. Not for a long, drawn out written conversation, though -- I've read some like that, and they can be pretty tedious. A lot like the author is just trying to impress you with his/her knowledge of the language. Just a few bits here and there.
I think that Elfshadow had the minimum language information in it. You have things like Elaith's greeting to Arilyn to the similarity between the Elven "grey" and the Common "dross." But even this series didn't mention human languages that I can remember. When Arilyn was in Calimshan, what languages did the conversations go in? Does she speak their language fluently? Did it all happen in Common? I can't imagine that, though, because it's supposed to be similar to Chondathan, and the Calimshites don't like the northerners.
As much as I'd be interested in a sourcebook on racial languages, I'd be much more interested in one on regional languages. Not just human languages, either. I find it hard to believe that, say, deep gnomes speak the same language as their surface cousins. I can accept the idea that Elven is subject only to slight dialect shift, but when you have people separated like that, surely their languages will change. Perhaps not between gold, shield, and grey dwarves, but I'm sure they speak quite differently from the wild dwarves of Chult. |
| Hymn |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 01:55:14
Hmm, so I guess the answer is no then As Cardinal Deimos mentioned, I would like to see a product taking up Orcs in the realms, since the adventure group runs into them at leat once or twice.
Here is a link to a good black speach page, based on Tolkien's language. I guess you could work it into the realms fairly easy.
http://www.angelfire.com/ia/orcishnations/orcishphrases.html |
| Hymn |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 01:37:06
quote:
Originally posted by Nightchill
As a very (very) minor point, Wotc/TSR orcs don't speak "orcish" but "orc".
From Mr.Reynolds:
"Speaking of races, turn to page 74 in the Player's Handbook. See the names in the first column for the racial languages? Use those names as-is. Elves speak Elven and dwarves speak Dwarven, but gnomes speak Gnome (not Gnomish), orcs speak Orc (not Orcish), and so on. Likewise, a sword forged by an orc is an "orc sword" (not an "orcish sword"), and a device made by a gnome is a "gnome device" (not a "gnomish device"). In other words, the adjective form of a race (with the exception of few like draconic, dwarven, and elven) is simply the race's name. A club made by a giant is a "giant club" (not a giantish club), and so on. Tolkien's elves speak elvish and his orcs speak orcish, but D&D elves speak Elven and D&D orcs speak Orc."
Taken from:http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/terminology.html
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No disrespect intended to SKR, but his statement contradicts some previously established Realms info. I was just re-reading the Dragon Magazine article on Mintiper Moonsilver and Asilther Graelor, when I noticed the launguages that Asilther speaks.
quote:
LANGUAGES KNOWN: Common, elven, dwarven, gnomish, halfling, goblin, orcish
There's two -ish ones, in an article written by Ed himself.
Further, page 25 of A Grand Tour of the Realms, from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting boxed set (2E) lists some more -ish languages: Elvish (three versions), Dwarvish, and Gnomish.
Personally, I'd say it's the preference of the speaker, as to which word they use. I don't see that saying "he said in elven" is all that different "he said in elvish."
And if I see a device built by gnomes, I'm calling it a gnomish device.
To ish or not ish that is the question, it's a free and confusing Realms and frankly I think it is as Nightchill said it's a minor note |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 00:05:12
quote:
Originally posted by Nightchill
As a very (very) minor point, Wotc/TSR orcs don't speak "orcish" but "orc".
From Mr.Reynolds:
"Speaking of races, turn to page 74 in the Player's Handbook. See the names in the first column for the racial languages? Use those names as-is. Elves speak Elven and dwarves speak Dwarven, but gnomes speak Gnome (not Gnomish), orcs speak Orc (not Orcish), and so on. Likewise, a sword forged by an orc is an "orc sword" (not an "orcish sword"), and a device made by a gnome is a "gnome device" (not a "gnomish device"). In other words, the adjective form of a race (with the exception of few like draconic, dwarven, and elven) is simply the race's name. A club made by a giant is a "giant club" (not a giantish club), and so on. Tolkien's elves speak elvish and his orcs speak orcish, but D&D elves speak Elven and D&D orcs speak Orc."
Taken from: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/terminology.html
No disrespect intended to SKR, but his statement contradicts some previously established Realms info. I was just re-reading the Dragon Magazine article on Mintiper Moonsilver and Asilther Graelor, when I noticed the launguages that Asilther speaks.
quote:
LANGUAGES KNOWN: Common, elven, dwarven, gnomish, halfling, goblin, orcish
There's two -ish ones, in an article written by Ed himself.
Further, page 25 of A Grand Tour of the Realms, from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting boxed set (2E) lists some more -ish languages: Elvish (three versions), Dwarvish, and Gnomish.
Personally, I'd say it's the preference of the speaker, as to which word they use. I don't see that saying "he said in elven" is all that different "he said in elvish."
And if I see a device built by gnomes, I'm calling it a gnomish device. |
| Hymn |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 22:51:45
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
We know a few bits about the orcish tongue, including a few words -- durgreos (no quarrel, a greeting and parting), ugrukh (broken bones), for two -- and enough orc personal names that we know what the words look like (Aragh, Durang, Eldoul, Ghauust, Gluthtor, Gorth, Graul, Hussslagh, Krautharr, etc.).
Hmm, looks a lot like the black speach Tolkien created I have a word list on it somwhere on the comp, have to check up on it. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 20:41:47
quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal Deimos
Hey anyone out there want to Create the First Dictionary of Orc...ish? [/purple]
Why should we do that? Isn't OSA Drizzt going to kill all the orcs within Faerun in his next novel??? |
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 19:40:18
Ah, orcs, the Great untapped resource of the Realms. Wizards of the (Sword) Coast should come out with a whole book on the Faerunian orcs. Language, history, the works! Indeed a mighty kingdom should be granted unto these noble beasts... Now if only people would listen to us.... Hey anyone out there want to Create the First Dictionary of Orc...ish? |
| Faraer |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 18:05:49
We know a few bits about the orcish tongue, including a few words -- durgreos (no quarrel, a greeting and parting), ugrukh (broken bones), for two -- and enough orc personal names that we know what the words look like (Aragh, Durang, Eldoul, Ghauust, Gluthtor, Gorth, Graul, Hussslagh, Krautharr, etc.).
The 3E rules-term for the tongue may be 'orc', but in the Realms it's sometimes called orcish.
The Dragon language and naming articles aren't the Realms languages, but for Greyhawk Light (the setting of the core books). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 17:30:48
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To the best of my knowledge, neither TSR nor WotC have ever published so much as a primer for a racial language.
I suppose you haven't seen the Draconomicon, then?
I've not yet acquired that tome... But if it's only a page, then I'd not consider it to be a language primer. See my earlier analogy.  |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 16:55:26
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
I suppose you haven't seen the Draconomicon, then?
Or like me, he could have forgotten. Until you mentioned it, I didn't recall that page 29 in the aforementioned tome does have Basic Draconic Vocabulary.
Must be nice all these non-FR products getting cool features like that.  |
| Arivia |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 15:00:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To the best of my knowledge, neither TSR nor WotC have ever published so much as a primer for a racial language.
I suppose you haven't seen the Draconomicon, then? |
| Nightchill |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 11:09:24
As a very (very) minor point, Wotc/TSR orcs don't speak "orcish" but "orc".
From Mr.Reynolds:
"Speaking of races, turn to page 74 in the Player's Handbook. See the names in the first column for the racial languages? Use those names as-is. Elves speak Elven and dwarves speak Dwarven, but gnomes speak Gnome (not Gnomish), orcs speak Orc (not Orcish), and so on. Likewise, a sword forged by an orc is an "orc sword" (not an "orcish sword"), and a device made by a gnome is a "gnome device" (not a "gnomish device"). In other words, the adjective form of a race (with the exception of few like draconic, dwarven, and elven) is simply the race's name. A club made by a giant is a "giant club" (not a giantish club), and so on. Tolkien's elves speak elvish and his orcs speak orcish, but D&D elves speak Elven and D&D orcs speak Orc."
Taken from: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/terminology.html |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 05:32:13
In various issues of Dragon, there have been articles on racial languages. These usually do give a brief list of commonly used words, but not a tremendous amount. Think of it like this: be an English speaker, and try to get by in Spain with the vocabulary printed on the placemat from the Mexican restaurant you ate at last week.
I don't believe that orcish has been covered, but I shan't swear to that fact.
To the best of my knowledge, neither TSR nor WotC have ever published so much as a primer for a racial language. |
| Jarren Longblade |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 04:09:20
I have never seen one, but that does not say much I live in a Small town in northern CA |
| Hymn |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 04:06:20
quote:
Originally posted by Jarren Longblade
Orc do have a language of their own called Orchish
Hmm, well I know that But I was wondering if an extensive/ small dictonary or such like existed for the Realmsian orcs. |
| Jarren Longblade |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 03:54:54
Orc do have a language of their own called Orchish |
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