| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 15:10:01
In my short experience in the reigns i've heard many things about the "Zhents", but anything clear. Can anyone explain me what the Zhentarim are? I'm very interested in them, 'cause i think they've got something to do with Cyric.  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lashan |
Posted - 01 Jun 2004 : 15:54:47
Sorry, I was wrong. I double-checked, and it is not one of the free ones. It is one of those .pdf's that I purchased for $5 on the official website. Sorry 'bout that. It is worth it, if you have the $5. |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 01 Jun 2004 : 15:11:59
quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
Oh, but the story is long, twisted, and convoluted, as many stories about Zhentil Keep are. Manshoon and Fzoul have known each other since youth and both have risen to power with each other's help. Manshoon and Chess were young nobles who's fathers were killed by betrayal. The only way that they were able to live was to double-cross the high priest of Bane that was trying to kill them. They enlisted one of his underlings, Fzoul, in this betrayal. In the process, both Manshoon and Chess became lords of Zhentil Keep and Fzoul rose to new heights in the Church of Bane. It was at this point that Manshoon needed to consolidate his power that he created the Black Network.
If you really want to understand the full story in detail, I suggest you read the Ruins of Zhentil Keep, which I believe is a free download from WOTC.
Which site? i can find it.  |
| Lashan |
Posted - 01 Jun 2004 : 15:06:43
Oh, but the story is long, twisted, and convoluted, as many stories about Zhentil Keep are. Manshoon and Fzoul have known each other since youth and both have risen to power with each other's help. Manshoon and Chess were young nobles who's fathers were killed by betrayal. The only way that they were able to live was to double-cross the high priest of Bane that was trying to kill them. They enlisted one of his underlings, Fzoul, in this betrayal. In the process, both Manshoon and Chess became lords of Zhentil Keep and Fzoul rose to new heights in the Church of Bane. It was at this point that Manshoon needed to consolidate his power that he created the Black Network.
If you really want to understand the full story in detail, I suggest you read the Ruins of Zhentil Keep, which I believe is a free download from WOTC. |
| Sarelle |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 21:05:31
Thanks for that Wooly. I wasn't entirely sure about my story. I didn't know that about Orbakh. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 17:34:22
The full tale is told in the 2nd edition source Cloak & Dagger. The tome also details the Tel'Teukiira, as well as several other organizations, both good and evil. I, personally, would recommend finding it, even though it's 2nd edition -- it's mostly lore, and there is a wealth of that.
To correct a couple other points:
The Manshoon that became a vampire became one before it woke up. Manshoon had secreted one of his clones under Westgate, and a vampire found it and decided to make it into another vampire. When that Manshoon woke up, it was already a vampire. It promptly slew its creator, and took over the Night Masks.
As for the clone itself... Stasis clone was a 9th-level variant of the clone spell, and it was Manshoon's creation. It acted much like the clone spell, with a couple of differences. The main differences were that the clone remained in stasis when it was created; it didn't immediately wake up. Another difference was that the clone could be "updated." At any time after the clone's creation, the creator could simply touch the clone, and it would be updated to match any changes in level or ability scores, and its memories would be updated, as well.
Manshoon's preferred strategy was to make sure the nearest clone was up to date, and then make a suicidal attack on whichever enemy he wanted taken out. Sure, he'd fall, but he'd also do some serious damage to his opponent, if not killing the opponent and his/her supporters.
If Manshoon died, his spirit would simply go into the nearest clone, which would then wake up. His enemies would be destroyed, he would have been seen being killed, but then here he is again, looking better than before!
For some reason, when Orgauth and Fzoul attacked, all of the clones awoke -- and there was more than 40 of them. No one knows why this happened... Fzoul and Orgauth expected to kill the first Manshoon, and then simply keep killing each clone as it popped up. Having 6 of them show up in the span of a few minutes kinda made them re-think that plan... |
| Sarelle |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 14:38:28
Thinking about it... I'm not sure how I know it all!
The no.1 resource is the 3rd edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (FRCS), that is the basis for FR D&D.
Other bits come from Lord of Darkness, the art gallery for Cloak & Dagger and people from the WotC threads (though the people here are better).
But, under Manshoon, the FRCS is the one that has most of it.
EDIT: The Player's Guide to Faerūn did the spell stasis clone, I think it was just called clone before |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 11:31:07
In which book is this story explained?
I hope i can find it here  |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 11:29:21
OK thank you very much Sarelle, now i got it. What an interesting story!!
I didn't know about a cloning spell in the realms. That's why i prefer the natural magic, the wizards magic leads sometimes to aberrations like that!!!  |
| Sarelle |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 11:20:28
quote:
Originally posted by Gion
Ok, i didn't have any idea of this. What a complicated story, so, if i have understood it well. A man called Manshoon cloned himself, problably to protect his life. But the clones scattered, some of them fought with other of them. And the real one is believed to be the one living in the zhentil keep. Have i understood it correctly? Sorry, but i really want to understand all the threads. 
Hehe! No problem. It took me a while to understand too.
There was a subtle, clever mage named Manshoon, who came to lead the organisation known at the Zhentarim - who dealt in espionage, sabotage and evil magic. He was a good leader, but there were loads of people who wanted to have his power. One of them was Fzoul Chembryl, a cleric of Bane, another was the Orgauth, Lord of Zhentil Keep - or rather the pit fiend who had replaced him. The fourth power player in this was another, subtle, sinister mage named Semmemmon. But Semmemmon was incredibly astute - and he preferred Manshoon's rule.
Anyway, Fzoul and Orgauth teamed up and killed Manshoon and took over the Zhentarim (Fzoul later killed Orgauth and became Chosen of Bane), but they hadn't reckoned an a favourite spell of Faerūnian mages - stasis clone. Manshoon had made about 40 - it says 'a dozen or so' in the FRCS - of them, a lot, even for a mage as powerful as him. They all awoke upon the original Manshoon's death and, as clones do, tried to kill one another in great fantastical battles (there is a picture in the Cloak & Dagger art gallery on the Wizards website). Three came out on top - and went their separate ways. One went to consolidate his power in Undermountain with Halaster Blackcloak, one stayed on in the Zhentarim, content for the moment to play second fiddle to Fzoul, and the other one went to Westgate, became a vampire, and took over the Night Mask organisation, renaming himself Orbakh.
It has emerged that there was at least one other surviving clone - the one who has taken a role most credible for the old Manshoon. This is the one Ed Greenwood considers the 'real' Manshoon. Either that or he is the ressurrected original Manshoon. We don't know.
Hope that helps and hope I got it all correct!  |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 10:07:33
Ok, i didn't have any idea of this. What a complicated story, so, if i have understood it well. A man called Manshoon cloned himself, problably to protect his life. But the clones scattered, some of them fought with other of them. And the real one is believed to be the one living in the zhentil keep. Have i understood it correctly? Sorry, but i really want to understand all the threads. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 17:43:41
Indeed he did!
quote:
I prefer to think the REAL Manshoon is in hiding somewhere, watching his lesser selves operating, and awaiting his chance to strike at Fzoul at the same time as one of his clones does. Its not just a matter of revenge, its a matter of Fzouls perversion of the Zhentarim into something less subtle and less effective than Manshoon intended it to be, more tied to the gods and less to subtly ruling and influencing Faerun through an ever-stronger brotherhood of mages (something Mystra would of course have supported, once Manshoon got past the culling the magelings stage).
Ill get back to you with some suggestions on what some of the Manshoons are up to (particularly the one co-operating with Fzoul in the Zhentarim).
|
| Sarelle |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 11:51:44
And didn't Ed say, in "Questions for Ed Greenwood", that (he imagines) there is at least 1 other living clone (yes, I too am sure there are more), one whom Ed considers to be the 'real' Manshoon?
He is just taking a step back at the moment, and watching the Zhentarim and the other clones, and waiting.
|
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 20:48:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Manshoon Wars were a really great idea. I think it draws vacuum that when 3rd edition rolled around, WotC decided "Okay, it happened, it's over, forget about it."
Makes you wonder what they might decide to treat like that when 4th edition rolls around. I have a few ideas and/or suggestions, but that's for another thread. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 17:48:51
quote:
Originally posted by Arteris
In addition to what Lashan stated, if I do remember the Zhentarim is currently controlled by Fzoul Chmbryl the Chosen of Bane. He took over command after he and some other guy killed (I believe his name is Manshoon) unfortuneatly Manshoon had thought ahead and I believe around 6 clones of him came to life fighting for which one was the real one. One of them currently resides in Zhentil Keep another in Undermountain with Halaster and I dont remember where the 3rd went, the rest of them having been killed.
The other guy was Lord Orgauth, a pit fiend in disguise. There were actually over 40 Manshoon clones that woke up and started running around, causing trouble.
Officially, three "Manshoons" are still around. The one in Zhentil Keep, Manshoon Prime, is considered to be the real one. A second, as mentioned above, is in Undermountain. The third has become a vampire, and leads the Night Masks in Westgate.
However, we don't know for certain that the remaining Manshoons were killed. While many fell victim to the compulsion to kill each other, there were ways around it. If a clone became something other than a living Manshoon clone, they were free of the compulsion. Undeath was one way around the compulsion, and changing gender or race was another.
So there could still be a handful of former Manshoons wandering around.
I'm fiddling with having one somehow change himself into a fey'ri. Another idea of mine was to have one relocate to an undersea lair -- he'd not be free of the compulsion, but he'd be unlikely to get close enough to another Manshoon to have to act on it.
Someone on the WotC forums (I can't recall who; it's been a while) took the Manshoon who stayed with the Simbul and made that one become a woman.
Also, some Manshoons survived by leaving Faerūn altogether. The compulsion would still remain, but those Manshoons will likely never encounter one of the others, so they're basically home free. This is where my undersea idea came from. Some of the Manshoons are on other worlds, and I think some have scattered across the planes, as well. But there's no need for them to go that far -- a Manshoon in Chult or the Kara-Tur would be rather unlikely to ever encounter any of his fellow clones, and thus not have to worry about the compulsion.
The Manshoon Wars were a really great idea. I think it draws vacuum that when 3rd edition rolled around, WotC decided "Okay, it happened, it's over, forget about it." |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 16:50:09
quote:
Originally posted by Arteris
In addition to what Lashan stated, if I do remember the Zhentarim is currently controlled by Fzoul Chmbryl the Chosen of Bane. He took over command after he and some other guy killed (I believe his name is Manshoon)
Yes, per the FRCS, page 282,
quote:
The Zhentarim (is) fully under the thumb of Fzoul and the church of Bane.
|
| Arteris |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 16:00:41
In addition to what Lashan stated, if I do remember the Zhentarim is currently controlled by Fzoul Chmbryl the Chosen of Bane. He took over command after he and some other guy killed (I believe his name is Manshoon) unfortuneatly Manshoon had thought ahead and I believe around 6 clones of him came to life fighting for which one was the real one. One of them currently resides in Zhentil Keep another in Undermountain with Halaster and I dont remember where the 3rd went, the rest of them having been killed. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 14:41:56
quote:
Originally posted by Gion
So the Moonstars are a side faction from the harpers?
There are similarities that have caused some to assume the Moonstars work for the Harpers. However, these are two separate groups. To understand more about the disagreement that caused the formation of the Moonstars, check out Cloak & Dagger. |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 12:25:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Gion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like the Harpers, but the Moonstars are much, much cooler, thinks I.
Moonstars? I admit i've never heard anything 'bout them.
The Moonstars, or Tel'Teukiira, were detailed in the book Cloak & Dagger. For unknown reasons, Khelben Arunsun stole an artifact from the Harpers and gave it to Fzoul Chembryl. He was eventually found out, and put on trial. At that point, he resigned from the Harpers, as did Laeral.
Khelben founded his own group, the Tel'Teukiira. His reasons and goals are unknown, but his new organization seems more in line with the original version of the Harpers, the Harpers at Twilight.
So the Moonstars are a side faction from the harpers? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 09:03:46
quote:
Originally posted by Gion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like the Harpers, but the Moonstars are much, much cooler, thinks I.
Moonstars? I admit i've never heard anything 'bout them.
The Moonstars, or Tel'Teukiira, were detailed in the book Cloak & Dagger. For unknown reasons, Khelben Arunsun stole an artifact from the Harpers and gave it to Fzoul Chembryl. He was eventually found out, and put on trial. At that point, he resigned from the Harpers, as did Laeral.
Khelben founded his own group, the Tel'Teukiira. His reasons and goals are unknown, but his new organization seems more in line with the original version of the Harpers, the Harpers at Twilight. |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 08:44:45
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Gion
I was in athkatla, i went to see them in their base in the city. And aftyer an "interesting" test they decided i was dangerous and attacked me.
That figures. I've never been a big fan of the Harpers myself either.
Me either, i promise. But since our last met, i try not to find any of them. They're too, unreliable... |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 08:43:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like the Harpers, but the Moonstars are much, much cooler, thinks I.
Moonstars? I admit i've never heard anything 'bout them. |
| Lashan |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 21:51:52
First, there really is a difference between "zhents" and "zhentarium" and even "zhentilar".
Zhents = people who live in Zhentil Keep.
Zhentilar = the military forces of Zhentil Keep.
Zhentarium = otherwise known as "the Black Network", which is a secret society bent on dominating their known world through trade.
I assume that you are a player and not the DM, so I am not sure how much info I *should* be telling you. I can say that the zhentarium is much more of a secret society then just a criminal element. They are quite a bit more powerful then an average crime syndicate. One of their specialties is place an proxy on the throne of a city or kingdom to take over that area. The Black Network started off very close to the Church of Bane and even helped create a scism in the church between the orthodox banites (in Mulmaster) and the neo-banites in Zhentil Keep. The big hubbub was about allowing non-clerics into ranks of the actual church. Factions that were part of the Zhentarium were also part of the Church in Zhentil Keep and allowed to have zhentarium wizards hold offices in the church ranks. This upset many typical banites. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 20:06:50
I like the Harpers, but the Moonstars are much, much cooler, thinks I. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 19:30:18
quote:
Originally posted by Gion
I was in athkatla, i went to see them in their base in the city. And aftyer an "interesting" test they decided i was dangerous and attacked me.
That figures. I've never been a big fan of the Harpers myself either. |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 19:11:59
I was in athkatla, i went to see them in their base in the city. And aftyer an "interesting" test they decided i was dangerous and attacked me. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 19:10:47
While some Zhents are criminal, there's others that are willing to work within the law. They'll twist it to their own benefit, but they'll still stay within the law.
Certainly, not all Zhents are lawful. But some are...
It's not as much a criminal organization as it is your typical collection of bad guys with a common set of goals. Some Zhents will intimidate or murder to get their way, others will throw around enough money to get their way.
Their overall goals are evil, but not all of their methods are criminal. So I'd not call them a criminal organization. |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 19:03:44
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Gion
My "last chat" with harpers wasn't relaxed.
Oh really? Details? Here or on another thread.
What does thread stands by? nothing important, the Harpist really doen's like the intromissions in their dominions, even for a druid, even in an accidental intromission. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 19:00:02
quote:
Originally posted by Gion
My "last chat" with harpers wasn't relaxed.
Oh really? Details? Here or on another thread. |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 18:58:20
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Gion
So they're a criminal organization. Curious.
Remember, a criminal organization can be a flexible term. For example, if the Zhents are controlling the local government, I'm sure they will not be viewed as a criminal organization by the leaders within the town/city/etc.
However, to an organization such as the Harpers, the Zhents will always be viewed as evil and criminal. At least that's the way I understand things within the Realms.
Actually, i don't like the harpers too... but i suppouse that's all a question of the point of view of the ones who take part of the conflict.
My "last chat" with harpers wasn't relaxed. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 18:36:03
quote:
Originally posted by Gion
So they're a criminal organization. Curious.
Remember, a criminal organization can be a flexible term. For example, if the Zhents are controlling the local government, I'm sure they will not be viewed as a criminal organization by the leaders within the town/city/etc.
However, to an organization such as the Harpers, the Zhents will always be viewed as evil and criminal. At least that's the way I understand things within the Realms. |
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