| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Azar |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 02:44:17
Hello.
As I was combing through The Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels, I noticed the following entry on Level 6 ->
quote:
Room 11: A Pleasant Refuge
This area is immense and looks like a park. The lighting is warm and subdued, like a spring evening. The ground is covered with a green mossy growth that seems soft enough to fall asleep on, and there is even a fountain with a statue of a centaur. The pillars supporting the roof have been carved into the shapes of nymphs and dryads, and the entire area looks completely inviting.
This area was intended for relaxing before and after bathing. In the days when this area was inhabited, there would have been servants passing around trays with drinks and refreshments on them. There would have been music and dancing in the central area and exhibits of artistic works. For now, however, it must suffice that the air is fresh and warm, and the moss on the ground is as comfortable as any bed that the characters entering here have ever slept in.
...
This area is so conducive to rest, that if the party rests here any victims of the illusion in the gate have no nightmares while asleep here, and if the victims sleep here nightly until the time for the dreams has expired, they lose no Wisdom.
Given that the Drow are utterly convinced of their own superiority...the perfection of their form...and the fact that they consider surface dwellers potential prey or slaves (especially woodland friends of The Seldarine and their offspring), I find it odd that they would decorate their habitat with sculptures of centaurs, dryads and nymphs. Even if there were that one-in-a-million dark elf who could appreciate art inspired by beings from so disparate a way of life, would it truly be displayed in a common area of a Drow enclave (and one which, by all indications, was firmly dedicated to Lolth)?
There is also the lighting evocative of a surface season, but that is a relatively minor issue. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Scots Dragon |
Posted - 17 Sep 2025 : 00:51:14
quote:
I cannot speak to a lone magazine article (published when, by the way?), but, at least within the past decade, they have softened the Drow as a collective...and for reasons not wholly artistic.
Dragon Magazine #298, published in 2002.
quote:
Regardless, Drow supremacy to the extent that it strictly forbids foreign iconography has been a part of the race since at least the late 1980s.
In Menzoberranzan, perhaps. But not all drow city-states operate the same way. Notably there are many city-states where Lolth's cultural dominance is not complete. Sshamath is a famous example. T'lindhet beneath Dambrath has an uneasy alliance with the surface Loviatar worshippers in order for their half-human offspring to serve as proxy rulers on the surface. Eryndlyn is a three-way ongoing conflict between Vhaeraunites, Lolthites, and Ghaunadaur worshippers.
And in Greyhawk, although Lolth reigns supreme, the cults of Erelhei-Cinlu have been infiltrated by influence from Tharizdun and Graz'zt.
The drow are not a monolith. I don't think we need to treat this as anything more than a group of earlier drow who happened to have some different cultural norms than those expressed by Menzoberranzan. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 22:55:38
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
A nymph can blind or kill with its overwhelming beauty; I would not call that "conducive to rest", but I understand that the perfect forms of these creatures is what holds appeal.
By the drow standards this may be merely "not completely boring". 
Consider that in Sshamath the festhall which caters to drow males, particularly wizards, is named "The Spider's Kiss".
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Why? They don't put it in the temples of Lolth or something.
Lolth brooks no indulgence in different (and potentially subversive) beliefs; art carries the power to affect belief. Furthermore, Lolth's influence is not confined within temple walls.
Perhaps her theocracy is more confident than what you are used to? 
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
Funnily enough drow under WotC doubled-down on a more 'inherently evil' interpretation, with a particularly notorious Dragon Magazine article from Robin D. Laws having some genuinely horrific ideas in it.
That's not "under WotC doubled-down", as much as "there is no bad publicity content, so anything goes, even any hackety-hack with screwed up fetishes". IMHO.
Possibly, catering to some editors' fetishes at that. Considering what sort of sourcebooks Bruce Cordell used to write, yet in d20 era he somehow did not get to publish much beyond "some more hurr durr tentacles" (and disastrous collaboration on Complete Shrooms) until he quit. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 16:07:02
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Regardless, Drow supremacy to the extent that it strictly forbids foreign iconography has been a part of the race since at least the late 1980s.
Do you have a source for this?
My quotes are from a TSR book (published 1991).
EDIT: Just a quick re-read of the Vault of the Drow describes it is a Dark Fairyland...and there are numerous references to how beautiful it is as well in various places. That is a publication from 1978 that pretty much matches Drow of the Underdark from 1991 to me...
|
| Azar |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 03:54:35
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Likewise. This discussion is about how an element clashes with a previously-established race.
It clashes to you. Not to me.
How you run things at your piece of mahogany is your own affair; how the race in question has been depicted (at least, during the days of TSR...I have no interest in WOTC) is another matter.
Funnily enough drow under WotC doubled-down on a more 'inherently evil' interpretation, with a particularly notorious Dragon Magazine article from Robin D. Laws having some genuinely horrific ideas in it. Most of the idea of the drow appreciating beauty and such comes from the TSR era. They're still fundamentally elves, after all.
The Liriel Baenre novels have young minor nobles engaging in various revelries and debaucheries, in fact.
I feel like there's an odd disconnect between the drow as they were actually portrayed and what people remember of them looking back.
I cannot speak to a lone magazine article (published when, by the way?), but, at least within the past decade, they have softened the Drow as a collective...and for reasons not wholly artistic. Regardless, Drow supremacy to the extent that it strictly forbids foreign iconography has been a part of the race since at least the late 1980s. |
| Scots Dragon |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 03:30:18
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Likewise. This discussion is about how an element clashes with a previously-established race.
It clashes to you. Not to me.
How you run things at your piece of mahogany is your own affair; how the race in question has been depicted (at least, during the days of TSR...I have no interest in WOTC) is another matter.
Funnily enough drow under WotC doubled-down on a more 'inherently evil' interpretation, with a particularly notorious Dragon Magazine article from Robin D. Laws having some genuinely horrific ideas in it. Most of the idea of the drow appreciating beauty and such comes from the TSR era. They're still fundamentally elves, after all.
The Liriel Baenre novels have young minor nobles engaging in various revelries and debaucheries, in fact.
I feel like there's an odd disconnect between the drow as they were actually portrayed and what people remember of them looking back.
|
| Azar |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 01:57:12
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Likewise. This discussion is about how an element clashes with a previously-established race.
It clashes to you. Not to me.
How you run things at your piece of mahogany is your own affair; how the race in question has been depicted (at least, during the days of TSR...I have no interest in WOTC) is another matter. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 01:50:25
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Likewise. This discussion is about how an element clashes with a previously-established race.
It clashes to you. Not to me. |
| Azar |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 01:44:40
Likewise. This discussion is about how an element clashes with a previously-established race. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 01:43:44
It is a single room.
Do as you feel led. |
| Azar |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 01:18:42
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
We can get to discussion about the rooms healing effect might require the decor.
That is unadulterated speculation. As it stands, the room is at odds with the dark elves we know. I wonder if the writer placed in architecture befitting a normal elven enclave without giving it a second thought.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I understand your vision of it.
No, sorry, you cannot dismiss the nature of something by focusing on an individual.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Drow like to give and receive massages; long, skilled massages involving scented oils, hot water and steam. This is close to ultimate luxury for them.
Drow love beauty--the beauty of sculpture and made items (especially weapons) and the beauty of the body. Drow of both sexes are proud of displaying their physiques; and all children exhibiting any physical deficiency are slain.
Common drow live in small caves, or in circular, walled houses, with dug-out cellars and adobe-like construction. These are always as beautiful as possible, and increase in size and grandeur with the wealth of the owner, until they become the grand villas of wealthy merchants, merchant clans, and noble Houses.
There is much more...but Beauty is something the Drow prize.
Their own beauty. Their own form. Their own art. That room in RoU II is an aberration. If you think about this...if you take this to its logical conclusion, then every Lolth-dominated population would likewise be sporting decorations from or based on other cultures. We know this is not true. That deity does not maintain control through tolerance or "live and let live". There is no fostering of a cosmopolitan atmosphere as we understand the word. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 01:07:45
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I was thinking: as an alternative to the nymph (i.e., a surface nature spirit which leans Good), might not there be statues of succubi?
A succubus does not exactly mesh with "conducive to rest", knowwhatimean?
A nymph can blind or kill with its overwhelming beauty; I would not call that "conducive to rest", but I understand that the perfect forms of these creatures is what holds appeal.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Of course; however, whether those (ordinary/typical) statues were crafted by dark elves or stolen by dark elves, such works of art would not be regarded as socially acceptable by Lolthites. If anything, statuary representative of the surface world likely be destroyed.
Why? They don't put it in the temples of Lolth or something.
Lolth brooks no indulgence in different (and potentially subversive) beliefs; art carries the power to affect belief. Furthermore, Lolth's influence is not confined within temple walls. It is inconceivable that positive depictions of surface worlders would persist in the social hub of a dark elf community.
I understand your vision of it...but I would counter by saying that Lolth and her followers are evil yes; but that doesn't mean "Destructive Evil" does it?
Conquerors often take/keep items from those they have defeated or are at war against.
In the book FOR2 Drow of the Underdark:
The Second Part is the extermination of all other elven races, including the seizing of their surface lands and holdings. Lolth and her clergy do not, however, advocate any sort of "holy war."
From the same book:
Drow like to give and receive massages; long, skilled massages involving scented oils, hot water and steam. This is close to ultimate luxury for them.
Drow love beauty--the beauty of sculpture and made items (especially weapons) and the beauty of the body. Drow of both sexes are proud of displaying their physiques; and all children exhibiting any physical deficiency are slain.
Common drow live in small caves, or in circular, walled houses, with dug-out cellars and adobe-like construction. These are always as beautiful as possible, and increase in size and grandeur with the wealth of the owner, until they become the grand villas of wealthy merchants, merchant clans, and noble Houses.
There is much more...but Beauty is something the Drow prize. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 00:58:05
We can get to discussion about the rooms healing effect might require the decor.
quote:
This area is so conducive to rest, that if the party rests here any victims of the illusion in the gate have no nightmares while asleep here, and if the victims sleep here nightly until the time for the dreams has expired, they lose no Wisdom.
Do Drow have nightmares? The room might have been designed for others? |
| Azar |
Posted - 15 Sep 2025 : 23:21:06
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I was thinking: as an alternative to the nymph (i.e., a surface nature spirit which leans Good), might not there be statues of succubi?
A succubus does not exactly mesh with "conducive to rest", knowwhatimean?
A nymph can blind or kill with its overwhelming beauty; I would not call that "conducive to rest", but I understand that the perfect forms of these creatures is what holds appeal.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Of course; however, whether those (ordinary/typical) statues were crafted by dark elves or stolen by dark elves, such works of art would not be regarded as socially acceptable by Lolthites. If anything, statuary representative of the surface world likely be destroyed.
Why? They don't put it in the temples of Lolth or something.
Lolth brooks no indulgence in different (and potentially subversive) beliefs; art carries the power to affect belief. Furthermore, Lolth's influence is not confined within temple walls. It is inconceivable that positive depictions of surface worlders would persist in the social hub of a dark elf community. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 15 Sep 2025 : 18:53:43
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Of course; however, whether those (ordinary/typical) statues were crafted by dark elves or stolen by dark elves, such works of art would not be regarded as socially acceptable by Lolthites. If anything, statuary representative of the surface world likely be destroyed.
Why? They don't put it in the temples of Lolth or something. |
| Azar |
Posted - 15 Sep 2025 : 02:57:10
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
*feces
*fecal matter
*excrement
*ordure
*dung
So I am not the only one disturbed by the fact that a word previously restricted to children 5-and-younger has somehow migrated into the average adult's vocabulary.
"Veggies", as well. |
| HighOne |
Posted - 15 Sep 2025 : 02:24:36
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
*feces
*fecal matter
*excrement
*ordure
*dung
So I am not the only one disturbed by the fact that a word previously restricted to children 5-and-younger has somehow migrated into the average adult's vocabulary. |
| Azar |
Posted - 14 Sep 2025 : 23:58:20
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
It's not necessarily made by the drow. It could be just good-looking stuff they collected from the earlier ruins (carefully disconnect a piece, then [Shrink] Item).
Of course; however, whether those (ordinary/typical) statues were crafted by dark elves or stolen by dark elves, such works of art would not be regarded as socially acceptable by Lolthites. If anything, statuary representative of the surface world likely be destroyed. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 14 Sep 2025 : 23:38:16
It's not necessarily made by the drow. It could be just good-looking stuff they collected via looting the earlier ruins (carefully disconnect a piece, then [Shrink] Item spell and a silk-lined box).
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I was thinking: as an alternative to the nymph (i.e., a surface nature spirit which leans Good), might not there be statues of succubi?
A succubus does not exactly mesh with "conducive to rest", knowwhatimean?
quote:
Originally posted by AJA
A pacified centaur makes for a very believable statue. A petrified centaur makes for a bunch of upright hooves and fists.
Those conditions are not mutually exclusive. |
| Azar |
Posted - 14 Sep 2025 : 23:01:13
*feces
*fecal matter
*excrement
*ordure
*dung |
| AJA |
Posted - 14 Sep 2025 : 08:33:12
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
A petrified centaur makes for a very believable statue.
A pacified centaur makes for a very believable statue. A petrified centaur makes for a bunch of upright hooves and fists.
And horse poop.
Believable, but in a totally different way.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Sep 2025 : 01:09:44
A petrified centaur makes for a very believable statue. |
| eldritchq |
Posted - 09 Sep 2025 : 15:28:37
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I was thinking: as an alternative to the nymph (i.e., a surface nature spirit which leans Good), might not there be statues of succubi? The succubus is a Chaotic Evil demon and Lolth is herself Chaotic Evil (and sometimes described as demonic if not an outright demon); I do not know if Lolth ever officially had succubi servants, but, it seems a perfect fit.
quote:
Succubi appear most often polymorphed into stunningly beautiful women with perfect figures and smooth, milky skin. They may also appear as any demihuman race. However, they do not often deal with demihumans, because humans’ fiery nature makes them easier prey.
Yochlols, Lolth's own creation, have been theorized about once being succubi.
quote:
"Remnant of wings gives credence to the theory about their succubi heritage"
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 08 Sep 2025 : 01:32:37
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
Maybe they are actually carvings of drentaurs, drymphs, and... drdryads. You know, the underground Lolthite varieties.
But yes, it seems like a mistake.
I was thinking: as an alternative to the nymph (i.e., a surface nature spirit which leans Good), might not there be statues of succubi? The succubus is a Chaotic Evil demon and Lolth is herself Chaotic Evil (and sometimes described as demonic if not an outright demon); I do not know if Lolth ever officially had succubi servants, but, it seems a perfect fit.
quote:
Succubi appear most often polymorphed into stunningly beautiful women with perfect figures and smooth, milky skin. They may also appear as any demihuman race. However, they do not often deal with demihumans, because humans’ fiery nature makes them easier prey.
Could even take the shape of a beautiful drow. |
| Azar |
Posted - 08 Sep 2025 : 00:53:22
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
Maybe they are actually carvings of drentaurs, drymphs, and... drdryads. You know, the underground Lolthite varieties.
But yes, it seems like a mistake.
I was thinking: as an alternative to the nymph (i.e., a surface nature spirit which leans Good), might not there be statues of succubi? The succubus is a Chaotic Evil demon and Lolth is herself Chaotic Evil (and sometimes described as demonic if not an outright demon); I do not know if Lolth ever officially had succubi servants, but, it seems a perfect fit.
quote:
Succubi appear most often polymorphed into stunningly beautiful women with perfect figures and smooth, milky skin. They may also appear as any demihuman race. However, they do not often deal with demihumans, because humans’ fiery nature makes them easier prey.
|
| HighOne |
Posted - 08 Sep 2025 : 00:36:57
Maybe they are actually carvings of drentaurs, drymphs, and... drdryads. You know, the underground Lolthite varieties.
But yes, it seems like a mistake. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 08 Sep 2025 : 00:31:35
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Just because a race is evil, does it mean that they can't enjoy things? Have themed entertainment?
I'd just write it off as that.
The evil race in question follows extreme Lolthite (?) dogma from on-high; this dogma - in part - preaches that they are supreme above all else; it makes little sense for them to adorn their habitation with pleasing symbols of the surface world and even less sense for the religious leaders to allow this decision.
The entire room could be a test of faith then if you like.
Priestess of Lolth: "Do you like this chamber? It is so relaxing isn't it!"
Drow male: "Yes, it is very nice!"
Priestess: "BLASPHEMER! Now you die!" |
| Azar |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 22:41:14
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Just because a race is evil, does it mean that they can't enjoy things? Have themed entertainment?
I'd just write it off as that.
The evil race in question follows extreme Lolthite (?) dogma from on-high; this dogma - in part - preaches that they are supreme above all else. It makes little sense for them to adorn their habitation with pleasing symbols of the surface world and even less sense for the religious leaders to allow this decision. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 19:06:52
The Twisted Twist can work here.
So, in Waterdeep, there is a Tavern called The Crawling Spider where it looks like a cave and the waitresses dress up like drow. Fun For The Whole Family! "Our prices are so good, you'll be enslaved!". So.......why DO humans do this? A race of evil and make a happy tavern? It's messed up.
I'm sure the Rest Spot is exactly the same. Full of Fey, in the same way. The drow here "relax" by looking at a centar, getting enraged and saying "rub my back or die!!!!!" It's just as messed up as the Crawling Spider. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 16:24:24
Just because a race is evil, does it mean that they can't enjoy things? Have themed entertainment?
I'd just write it off as that. |
| Azar |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 04:38:30
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There among the Drow are many that want return to the surface world, reclaiming their lands and ruling over those lessor elves and the other lower than that, humans etc.
So it would not be that odd to find such a room.
I might be willing to entertain that notion, were the sculptures of woodland creatures in the accompanying illustration displaying (or, barring that, described as displaying) fear, pain, submission, et cetera; alternatively, the dryads and nymphs might be rendered in poses suggestive of servitude or bondage. As far as I can tell, there are only run-of-the-mill depictions far more suitable for a temple of Corellon Larethian, Rillifane Rallathil and/or Hanali Celanil.
quote:
Originally posted by AJA
The writing of Room 11 certainly doesn't seem to suggest that Muiral re-shaped it later, so that would be my Plan B out the window.
I briefly considered something similar, but, as you say, the (visible) absence of any alteration to the surroundings makes that theory unlikely. Most dungeons that "changed hands" usually make it a point to inform the DM about any especially strange inconsistencies. Having what might be considered cultural propaganda (by a standard Drow matriarchy) in the heart of a Drow community just feels...off. |
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