| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 27 Jan 2024 : 01:44:58
Haven't seen this here, so... darjr of ENWorld forums shared his photos of the map of Faerūn that came in the special edition of Lore & Legends (a book/catalogue about the art of D&D 5e). The map was made by Jared Blando, the artist who made the Faerūn map featured in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.
The map includes all the locations that were featured in 5e adventures, which means there are imports from the adventures that were originally from other settings but were ported to the Realms in 5e (like the Sunless Citadel or Saltmarsh). It also includes the updated post-Second Sundering geography. I really like that my doubts about the geography of the Old Empires is officially settled at last. 
Anyways, here are the photos:
https://imgur.com/gallery/htwFnNR |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 13 Apr 2024 : 02:10:30
The weird thing is that the artist of this map, Blando, is the same artist who drew the SCAG maps. Which means that changes were done purposefully and by commission. |
| Werthead |
Posted - 13 Apr 2024 : 01:18:27
I think I worked it out. It's this fan map. They just gave it to a professional artist to draw over. If you look at the coast of the Alamber Sea, including that "spiky bit" coming out of the bottom, it's spot on, as is the horrible and 100% non-canon northern coast. Ed's already shot down this map on Twitter a while back, pointing out the flaws in it.
The question is why Wizards of the Coast just gave a random fan map to one of their professional artists to draw. And does the creator of the original fan map know Wizards did that without credit? Urgh. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Mar 2024 : 15:29:27
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
other areas where it's just incredibly vague how the Spellplague and the Second Sundering impacted them. Did every vanished/destroyed city come back or just some of them?
Argh. I've been trying to move into "accepting 4E/5E changes" rather than just keeping everything in 3E, but 3E (and legacy 2E material from just a few years earlier) was when we last had a cohesive view of the entire continent (and a less-cohesive-but-still-workable view of the entire planet).
Being honest, 4e had a cohesive view of the continent, that people generally dislike. But you disliking something doesn't make it not coherent or cohesive. The problem is 5e, as we don't know how its changes affected the 4e map beyond the Sword Coast, that is the only place that 5e has developed during its lifetime.
IMO, I think some places never returned, or returned/remained as ruins. And those places that did returned have been changed (see Ed Greenwood's last video about Halruaa, for instance). That's because the Second Sundering wasn't a time rewind spell. It was just the same process of the Spellplague, just that the swamping of lands was inversed.
VERY MUCH THAT LAST PARAGRAPH.
I've seen so many people saying that the second sundering was a "reset"... and I'm viewing it as "no, its great grandchildren returning to a world they never knew except from stories, and after a hundred years of different neighbors shaping their societies. Or worse, the previous population being run off/killed and new people moving in that now find themselves in Toril".
So, I like the idea of many of the "fallen" Chessentan cities having transferred PORTIONS of said cities to Abeir... and those cities returning with very much different populations. To note, many of the cities in Chessenta that fell got replaced by other cities with pretty much the same ethos on Toril (per the backdrop Chessenta article), so you already have "a warlike city like Akanax" in Pandrik and a "enlightened city like Cimbar" in Erebos.
Essentially, much like the spellplague was... this very much gives an opportunity to change portions of the realm from "this is Greece in the realms" to something much more fantastic. Now, I'm not hating on the Chessenta of old mind you... I liked it... BUT when given lemons, go ahead and try to make lemonade. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 09 Mar 2024 : 01:54:46
quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
other areas where it's just incredibly vague how the Spellplague and the Second Sundering impacted them. Did every vanished/destroyed city come back or just some of them?
Argh. I've been trying to move into "accepting 4E/5E changes" rather than just keeping everything in 3E, but 3E (and legacy 2E material from just a few years earlier) was when we last had a cohesive view of the entire continent (and a less-cohesive-but-still-workable view of the entire planet).
Being honest, 4e had a cohesive view of the continent, that people generally dislike. But you disliking something doesn't make it not coherent or cohesive. The problem is 5e, as we don't know how its changes affected the 4e map beyond the Sword Coast, that is the only place that 5e has developed during its lifetime.
IMO, I think some places never returned, or returned/remained as ruins. And those places that did returned have been changed (see Ed Greenwood's last video about Halruaa, for instance). That's because the Second Sundering wasn't a time rewind spell. It was just the same process of the Spellplague, just that the swamping of lands was inversed. |
| Werthead |
Posted - 08 Mar 2024 : 20:48:04
I've partially completed the revisions to the map in that area and around Baldur's Gate (incorporating the BG3 changes; went better than expected), but the whole exercise feels unattainable because of how partial the lore we have for 5E is. So we have several hyper-up-to-date areas, several areas that haven't been mapped meaningfully since 2E (if not 1E) and other areas where it's just incredibly vague how the Spellplague and the Second Sundering impacted them. Did every vanished/destroyed city come back or just some of them?
Argh. I've been trying to move into "accepting 4E/5E changes" rather than just keeping everything in 3E, but 3E (and legacy 2E material from just a few years earlier) was when we last had a cohesive view of the entire continent (and a less-cohesive-but-still-workable view of the entire planet). |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 03 Mar 2024 : 17:57:14
We don't exactly know what happened there. We know, however, that the Spellplague messed with the concept of space as well as the concept of time. Perhaps Skuld was "moved" during the Spellplague? The region was a hot bet of plaguelands and wild magic zones during the time of High Imaskar, after all (High Imaskar entry on the FRPG). That would left it spot "free" when the Imaskari brought the Palace of the Purple Emperor to the zone.
Of note, in the DMs Guild Mulhorand supplement, that got Ed Greenwood's seal of approval, Skuld remained a ruin and the Mulhorandi now live in Skyclave. I don't know how much of that idea is Ed's, but he considers the document "canon" to his version of WotC's Realms.
We don't know how Ao fixed that area later (if he did it). We know that somehow the rivers in Mulhorand were "displaced" (they look different than in the 4e map). Perhaps Slyclave and Skuld are neighbours now. |
| Werthead |
Posted - 03 Mar 2024 : 16:20:03
Great stuff.
One oddity is that I think the 4E map - itself not the greatest of cartographic achievements, putting aside the lameness of the Spellplague - put Skyclave exactly where Skuld is, and Skuld is shown much further east (not quite as far east as Jhalhoran, but not far off). So fixing that makes it unclear where Skyclave's ruins/site should be. Underwater? That doesn't seem to fit there being less water than before, not more. I've fudged it by putting it due north of actual Skuld, still on the coast. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 28 Feb 2024 : 22:24:35
Oh, I'm interested in this experiment.
quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
So, I'm informed that Chondath has, in fact, returned to Toril in the Second Sundering (it wasn't destroyed but was instead flipped to Abeir and then back again), according to the Adventurer's League adventure "Foreign Affairs."
Chondath it's also mentioned in the epilogue of The Devil You Know, although no details are given. One of the characters just mentions it as a potential land to cross to go to Cormyr. So, you have 2 sources confirming the return of Chondath, but we don't know if this return is total or partial.
quote:
Reth - not Hlath - was the city destroyed by the Abolethic Sovereignty, having first been conquered by the genasi (Brassune). Airspur is the capital of Akanul, which now seems to extend south to the refilled Akanamere and east to the restored Bay of Chessenta, with Cimbar and Soorenar as restored cities under Akanul's rule (presumably much smaller than before).
Actually Reth (or Rath, as it's named in the article "Explore Airspur", in Dragon 377) wasn't conquered by the genasi, but half of the city was exchanged with a portion of the city of Shyr (capital of the Abeiran kingdom of the same name). The fused city was later renamed Brassune by the survivors.
The article doesn't mention what happened with any Torilian survivor of the remaining half of Reth, if any. It talks about a civil war among the genasi noble houses during the rebuilding of the city but before electing the king of Brassune, so the Chondatan humans were either conscripted or annihilated during said unrest. Some humans do live in Airspur as citizens, so perhaps they are descendants of those.
The Airspur that later becomes the capital of Akanūl is the same old Airspur of always. The genasi moved there when Brassune was destroyed, and rebuilt the city to their tastes, as Airspur was destroyed as a collateral consequence of Chondath and Shyr exchanging parts. Notice that the genasi didn't displaced the survivors, either. The article mentions that half-orc descendants of the original inhabitants of the city still live there (including the descendant of King Khrulus, in the last Explore Airspur article in Dungeon 172). |
| Werthead |
Posted - 25 Feb 2024 : 20:06:44
I'm developing a new map based partially on the this one, although I'm wondering if the exercise is doomed to failure due to a lack of more detailed info.
So, I'm informed that Chondath has, in fact, returned to Toril in the Second Sundering (it wasn't destroyed but was instead flipped to Abeir and then back again), according to the Adventurer's League adventure "Foreign Affairs." Cities listed as ruins or destroyed in 4E seem to be extant once again. This is a bit odd as these cities are listed as ruins in 4E that you can visit etc, rather than just outright missing, but whatever. Whether that means Chondath itself exists as a polity is unclear, but it's not listed on the map so I guess not (and Chondath was always a nation of semi-independent towns and a couple of cities unified under Arrabar, so not a huge surprise). Sespech very happy to have won that showdown.
Reth - not Hlath - was the city destroyed by the Abolethic Sovereignty, having first been conquered by the genasi (Brassune). Airspur is the capital of Akanul, which now seems to extend south to the refilled Akanamere and east to the restored Bay of Chessenta, with Cimbar and Soorenar as restored cities under Akanul's rule (presumably much smaller than before). Presumably any location in the old Akanamere has been destroyed by the reformation of the lake. Lake Akax to the north, formed in the Spellplague, has remined behind, however, although its location and the course of the river filling it is different on the new map to the old ones. Chessenta seems to have been restored, I'm assuming with Luthcheq still as its capital and otherwise the nation remains as depicted in "Backdrop: Chessenta" in Dungeon #178.
The coast of the Alamber Sea seems to have not been fully restored in the Second Sundering and is still showing signs of damage from the Spellplague. I'm assuming places like Aglarond still exist and are not shown on the map just for clarity. I think a good rule of thumb here is that any location that has survived on the 4E Faerun map probably still exists in 5E as well. The question mark is over places listed as destroyed on the 4E map that may have in fact survived on Abeir and now returned in 5E even if that wasn't explicitly the case (Greenwood's plan for the Second Sundering seeming to be "Hit Undo" for everything the Spellplague did). Unfortunately the map doesn't show Luiren, so doesn't clear up the confusion there (with the nation reportedly returning in 5E but some coastal regions still underwater).
The widely, widely-hated Blade Kingdoms have been firmly destroyed, I feel (and I suspect are too obscure for the current WotC team to even know they ever existed).
ETA: Incorporating the changes to the Alamber Sea region was challenging but ultimately doable. Fitting Ash Lake and Lance Lake, albeit in their much-shrunken forms from this new map, took a bit longer. I had to assume the River Alamber significantly changed its course southwards, otherwise it was impossible to fit them in. Fully incorporating Tymanther on the map in a way that made sense was quite satisfying. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 07 Feb 2024 : 16:14:38
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Also Akanul still exists, I was under the impression with Chessentan Airspur back Akanul was gone back to Abeir, but the Genasi nation is still there, roughly were Chondath used to be RIP Chondath.
This is a common misconception I've seen lately, but the thing is that genasi Airspur was always Chessentan Airspur. The genasi came to Faerūn in a city that replaced half of Hlath, in Chondath. That new "fused" city was destroyed by the Abolethic Sovereignty some years later, forcing the surviving genasi to migrate to the east eventually reaching the ruins of Airspur, from where the genasi founded the kingdom of Akanūl (this is from the first Exploring: Airspur article from the Dragon mags).
The point being, Akanūl remains in Toril after the SS because it was founded in Torilian ground. Even if the inhabitants are Abeirans (or more accurately, their descendants), the land is not. The Abeiran lands to the west that replaced Chondath were always considered to be the Akanulan frontiers. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Feb 2024 : 15:18:39
I have been under the assumption for a while now that these "transfers" in Chessenta and Unther were haphazard and not complete. By that, I mean that PORTIONS of cities transferred... PORTIONS of countryside transferred... Then with the second sundering PORTIONS of EITHER Abeir OR TORIL were brought over. This to me makes a hell of a lot more sense than "this country with all its political lines" transferred exactly. It also allows us to pick and choose and keep whatever we want and change things about. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 05 Feb 2024 : 00:31:05
Looking closely at the new map it really doesn't match any edition.
Look at the Alamber Sea, its like the middle ground between 3e and 4e.
Also three nations are surprisingly on named on the map, Aglarond (could they have been conquerored by Thay?), Tymanther and Unther, although those two are in a war for Territory so that may be why.
Also Akanul still exists, I was under the impression with Chessentan Airspur back Akanul was gone back to Abeir, but the Genasi nation is still there, roughly were Chondath used to be RIP Chondath.
I really hope this map is a sign that they plan to do a FRCG type book. They are finally remembering there is more to FR then Swordcoast North and Chult. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 05 Feb 2024 : 00:31:04
Looking closely at the new map it really doesn't match any edition.
Look at the Alamber Sea, its like the middle ground between 3e and 4e.
Also three nations are surprisingly on named on the map, Aglarond (could they have been conquerored by Thay?), Tymanther and Unther, although those two are in a war for Territory so that may be why.
Also Akanul still exists, I was under the impression with Chessentan Airspur back Akanul was gone back to Abeir, but the Genasi nation is still there, roughly were Chondath used to be RIP Chondath.
I really hope this map is a sign that they plan to do a FRCG type book. They are finally remembering there is more to FR then Swordcoast North and Chult. |
| Werthead |
Posted - 29 Jan 2024 : 20:44:05
For 3E they shrank Faerun in size by 15-20%, eliminating most of the Shaar and Eastern Shaar and "pulling" Chult further north. They also rotated the North and the Sword Coast, making the coastline run more north-west than due north. This also pushed Sossal out of view on most of the maps. An entire mountain range (the Kuldin Peaks) vanished from the Lands of Intrigue region, and Impresk Lake somehow moved north of the Snowflake Mountains and Shilmista Forest instead of being to the south (particularly notable if you read the Cleric Quintet, as this now makes no sense whatsoever). The idea was that the original version of Faerun had "too much dead space" (notably not a single complaint I ever saw voiced once about FR in the entire 1E-2E period) and so they got rid of the dead space for 3E.
When 5E launched, they used the 1-2E configuration again. The Mike Schley maps since 2014 all use the 1-2E outline, the big map of the Sword Coast WotC has been selling for the last decade is the 1-2E one (if you overlay it over the 1-2E maps in the Interactive Atlas, it aligns 100%; it does not with the 3E map, as the coast goes in a different direction), and in the SCAG they even mention that Faerun feels bigger again like it was well before the Spellplague. The larger-but-less detailed map of Faerun in the SCAG also shows the 1-2E version pretty clearly.
The rule of thumb is the positioning of Chult: if Chult is some distance SW of Calimshan, it's a 1E/2E/5E map. If Chult is due west of Calimshan it's a 3E map. If Chult is an island, it's a 4E map. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 29 Jan 2024 : 17:18:13
quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
The SCAG notes, at quite a lot of length, that the Second Sundering restored Faerun to its 1-2E configuration. It even notes that in the text (where the shift from 2E to 3E was not mentioned in the text at all, it was just a retcon). Every previous map published in 5th Edition has reinforced that we're back to the 1-2E map with the political changes from 3E and 4E (so Tymanther and Akanul are still there etc). If you take the 5E maps and overlay them over the 2E maps (usually using the Interactive Atlas), they fit perfectly, whilst they don't with the 3E map.
So why is this map back to using the 3E configuration again? Did they give him the wrong reference material? Excessively annoying.
You mentioned that on Reddit as well, and now I'm curious. Are you talking about stuff like distances? Or landforms? But yes, it's curious, at the very least, given that Jared Blando was involved in the map making of the SCAG, meaning he was aware of the editorial intention back them.
Myself, I've noticed a couple of inconsistencies in my area of interest (the Old Empires), like the River Alamber ending in the Ash Lake, instead of having a northern branch that goes from the lake into the sea, as stated in The Devil You Know novel (that covers the post-Second Sundering geography of the region).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, this is in this book release in October?
https://www.amazon.com/Lore-Legends-Celebration-Greatest-Roleplaying/dp/1984859684/ref=sr_1_1?crid=28Z1JWFYNV0ER&keywords=lore and legends d%26d&qid=1706544138&sprefix=Lore and lege%2Caps%2C122&sr=8-1
Yes, this is that book (but its Special Edition), and yes, this is the whole map. Mind the map was done with the purpose of showcasing the places of Faerūn that have been visited in 5e adventures (including imported locations), that's why the Sword Coast is overcrowded, lol. We got lucky that they decided to go "full" mode and showed a little more of Faerūn (enough to make me happy by covering enough of Tymanther to confirm that both lakes still exists in the current official info).
https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Michael-Witwer/dp/1984862464
And nope, sorry, I don't have that book, way too expensive I live in Latam, expending that much money on a single thing would leave me bankrupted for at least the next couple of months, lol. I have just those photos that guy from ENWorld forums shared. And even if I had that much money to expend in hobbies, I would prefer to give it to Ed Greenwood and ask for some lore for my favorite regions instead, lol.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Jan 2024 : 16:16:52
So, this is in this book release in October?
https://www.amazon.com/Lore-Legends-Celebration-Greatest-Roleplaying/dp/1984859684/ref=sr_1_1?crid=28Z1JWFYNV0ER&keywords=lore and legends d%26d&qid=1706544138&sprefix=Lore and lege%2Caps%2C122&sr=8-1
Is this just some snippet screenshot or do they give a big foldout? Nevermind, just found some youtube that shows the map as a big foldout.
But to echo Ayrik... yeah, accuracy dubious. Would like to see what you saw though... as what I'm looking at from the link you gave only shows the North... and stopping the youtube just shows an extremely blurry map. Do you have the product? I'd love to have it, but not sure if I'm willing to pay $25 for this alone.
EDIT: nevermind... second picture if I would have scrolled down with a little more detail. Not much to it, and unfortunately, the area I'd be most interested in (the majority of the Eastern Shaar, Landrise, Chessenta, most of the Shining south, etc...) is all covered. Not a whole lot of definition in the rest either. |
| Werthead |
Posted - 28 Jan 2024 : 21:39:05
The SCAG notes, at quite a lot of length, that the Second Sundering restored Faerun to its 1-2E configuration. It even notes that in the text (where the shift from 2E to 3E was not mentioned in the text at all, it was just a retcon). Every previous map published in 5th Edition has reinforced that we're back to the 1-2E map with the political changes from 3E and 4E (so Tymanther and Akanul are still there etc). If you take the 5E maps and overlay them over the 2E maps (usually using the Interactive Atlas), they fit perfectly, whilst they don't with the 3E map.
So why is this map back to using the 3E configuration again? Did they give him the wrong reference material? Excessively annoying. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Jan 2024 : 05:55:45
Quality = good
Creativity = great
Artistry = excellent
Accuracy = dubious |
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