| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| chargerrich |
Posted - 26 Nov 2023 : 02:30:23
Lurker of 20 years finally getting around to registering with my most respected D&D lore site :)
I am compiling a full FR timeline and have spent the better part of the last two weeks researching the earliest days of Abeir-Toril from the Blue Age through the Days of Thunder leading up to the Time of Dragons and Giants.
While I have a firm grasp on "all of the lore available" and have probably read every sourcebook in existence, I am struggling with trying to remove/reconcile the events of the Spellplague to provide something approximating a reasonable model for a 5e world.
So I turn to the scribes of candlekeep for guidance/answers on those pieces of lore that are DIRECTLY attributed to the changes brought on by the spellplague:
1. Is the splitting of Abeir-Toril a pure 4e/spellplague retcon/consquence? I believe the answer is yes because of the tablets of fate lore.
2. Are there any other 4e retcons that are specific to the creation mythologies?
3. So is the above now called the first sundering? its confusing because of the -17600 DR sundering.
4. So are all three sunderings in fact 4e/spellplague retcons?
5. The lore behind the Batrachi "great summoning" to release imprisoned primoridials is a 4e retcon, correct?
6. Is it accurate to say that in a pre-4e world, their was just a major cataclysm/planet wide meteor storm that created the sea of fallen stars?
7. Is it also accurate to say in a pre-4e world, that meteor storm MAY have included dragon eggs or the climate change accelerated proto-dragons to become dragons?
8. Asgorath in particular seems to have some of the most conflicting lore - Asgorath versus Io, A primordial or a deity? He or She? Did he/she get split in half to create Tiamat and Bahamut and if so how was she around millennia later for her role in grabbing a moon and crashing it upon the planet? She created the lady of pain???
I am struggling to determine how much of the Asgorath story is because of the 4e retcon and what her role would be in say a canonical version of 3.5
And finally, can anyone point me to a definitive list of the changes/retcons from the spellplague/4e?
I know the basic top level stuff, Shar got her revenge thanks to Cyric and Mystra died, weave collapsed, all the sunderings, a 100 year timeline advance, astral domains, outer planes destroyed, hell is a planet (good grief), cosmological model changed.
But is there a list of all the gods that were killed off, the lands that were retconned like Maztica, draining the sea of fallen stars, etc?
I am guess there are lots of smaller details that I would LOVE to catalog and detail.
Thank you in advance for any assistance! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 18:45:41
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Trying to go straight into the middle and use 4E rules with not-4E lore is just more effort than it's worth, in my opinion. I don't waste my time fixing things that other people broke.
I've played 4e rules in pre-4e timelines. There's really no significant change with the Lore except -maybe if you make it a bit deal- "eladrin" as Moon/Sun/Star elves. Most people on Faerūn still just call them gold or sun elves. Wizards still use spellbooks, Clerics still pray, paladins still Smite, etc.
I know that Richard Baker has a mandate to bring the realms to a more accessible level, but I think many of the Forgotten Realms fans would have stuck with the 4e rules set if the Lore was not changed all around or brought up 100 years. My problem with 4e was FR Lore more than ruleset.
Not to start any fight, but it was both for me... moreso with what they did with spellcasters (which I'd have to re-review the rulesets to remember what that was mind you... but basically it made me go "so now what we see people do in the novels, just can't be done mechanically by the rules"). That being said, there were definite improvements in mechanics in the system, such as the concept of rituals. Each edition comes up with some new/unique ideas that improve and advance certain ideas. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 16:42:29
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Trying to go straight into the middle and use 4E rules with not-4E lore is just more effort than it's worth, in my opinion. I don't waste my time fixing things that other people broke.
I've played 4e rules in pre-4e timelines. There's really no significant change with the Lore except -maybe if you make it a bit deal- "eladrin" as Moon/Sun/Star elves. Most people on Faerūn still just call them gold or sun elves. Wizards still use spellbooks, Clerics still pray, paladins still Smite, etc.
I know that Richard Baker has a mandate to bring the realms to a more accessible level, but I think many of the Forgotten Realms fans would have stuck with the 4e rules set if the Lore was not changed all around or brought up 100 years. My problem with 4e was FR Lore more than ruleset. |
| Werthead |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 00:11:11
Dragon Magazine under Paizo was still using material written by WotC-approved authors, including Ed and Keith Baker and many others. I don't think there's ever been any suggestion that any Paizo-Dragon stuff is non-canon (or at least unofficial, given the bemusing status of D&D canon in general).
That said, that article gives no explanation for the Lady of Pain's origins, merely reprinting some of the favourite theories over the years:
quote:
No one knows who or what the Lady of Pain is. The undisputed and uncaring ruler of Sigil, the hub of the Outer Planes, it is by her might that deities and powerful magics do not intrude upon the City of Doors. Her powers and actions mark her as something both more and less than a deity. While she demonstrates the power to prevent all other deities from intruding upon her city and the ability to create demi planes (the Mazes) at will, possesses no worshipersactively dissuading and destroying those who would dare pray to herand has never exhibited power outside her city.
Numerous theories seek to explain the Lady of Pain and her role within Sigil, The most farfetched possibilities suggest that she might be a personification of Sigil itself or its countless philosophies, a reformed demon lord, a being hatched from a dab us egg by the dragon god lo, or an aspect of a dead god of portals. More elaborate possibilities have also been posed. The Planescape novel Pages of Pain suggests that the Lady of Pain might be a daughter of the Greek god Poseidon, while the video game Pi * Nescafe: Torment implies that the lady of Pain is a prisoner bound at the heart of the Outer Planes and that Sigil is her cage.
Additionally, some suggest that she is one of the unknowable Ancient Brethrenmanifestations of primal forces- and existent since the formation of the multiverseand that her role is one of key multiplanar concern: protection of Sigil The City of Doors has always been held ari a place of unique importance at the heart of the Outer Planes, where all philosophies might meld and mix. Some have even suggested that Sigil is the keystone upon which the Outer Planes rely, and that all the planes stability rests on the physical and philosophical peace of the city. Should one philosophy ever forcibly take hold, particularly through invasion or godly intervention* that change would be accounted for in the ordering, reordering, destruction, or creation of various Outer Planes- Thus, this theory proposes that it is the role of the Lady of Pain to maintain the status quo within Sigil, lest the multiverse be fundamentally changed (see Die Vecna Die),
Although little can be proven or deemed true about the Lady of Pain in D&D, outside of those realms inspiration for the Lady of Pain is drawn directly from the titular character in a poem by Algernon Charles Swinburne, Dolores (Notre-Dame de* Sept Poulencs)" Le. r "Dolores (Our Lady of Seven Sorrows)."
Regardless, what is known for sure about the Lady of Pain is very little besides that she is an embodiment of the mysteries of Sigil and all the planes found beyond her city's countless doors.
|
| Mournblade |
Posted - 25 Jan 2024 : 17:58:35
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I just simplify things.
Stick with pre-4E editions and pre-4E lore in which 4E doesn't exist and never happened.
Or move onto post-4E editions and post-4E lore which attempt to retcon the retcon so 4E is something "optional" you can handwave or pretend halfway exists only as necessary for your preferences.
Trying to go straight into the middle and use 4E rules with not-4E lore is just more effort than it's worth, in my opinion. I don't waste my time fixing things that other people broke.
I ignore all those changes entirely. I mean if you run COrmyr-shadowdale-anauroch The PC's should have thwarted Shar.
The problem comes in with things around the Days of Thunder and scalyfolk. 4e and 5e developed alot of lore around that time. I think they made an Arokokra creator race as well?
I pretty much ignore all the Dawn war and Abeir stuff. ITs much easier not to address 4e and just tell my players that know about it that none of that happened. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 25 Jan 2024 : 17:50:53
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Karthak
The Lady of Pain being created by Io/Asgorath is definitely a post 2e and most likely an exclusively 4e idea, while her origins aren't clear in any of the 2e planescape setting books, it's vaguely speculated that she might be a former demon lord who stumbled across Sigil and never left.
The myth about Io creating the Lady of Pain from a dabus egg was actually introduced in Dragon 359, so is from 3e. I find funny how everyone here tries to blame any stuff they dislike to 4e...
To be fair that was a Paizo article if it was released at that time. I don't think Dragon under Paizo can be considered Realms Canon |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 09 Dec 2023 : 01:43:07
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yes, Bahamut and Tiamat are "tied" to Chromatic and Metallic dragons... but reread the story in the book of the world. Essentially, Asgorath "dies" from "shards of the crystal sun"... and from them come red dragons (at least colored red... it could be argued they were ruby dragons mind you)... but at the same time there's one unique dragon "the renegade" who turns around and spills its blood and this creates the metallics. Then it hints that the "renegade" is possibly Bahamut. It should also be noted that that "story" is also a bit unclear about whether Asgorath died, because at the end, after all the "spawn of asgorath" release their breath upon her... she begins to stir and "the renegade" flees.
Well, yes. That's the tale tell in the Book of the World. But if you read the info of the Draconomicon, the sages of Candlekeep believe that myth was written by humans not dragons, and its extremely biased for the red dragons pov. Also, the Asgorath in that tale seems to be Tiamat and not the actual Asgorath/Io (as the original text mentions many breaths, not just one). Adding to that, the sage studying the book mentions how difficult it was for them to translate it, as it was written in an archaic form of Thorass.
Which means that this tale is from a very unreliable narrator (humans transcribing a biased tale from red dragons, that was later translated into Common by a sage that didn't dominated the original language the book was written in), and should be taken with a ton of salt.
This tale is also similar with other draconic creation myths from other worlds. In the standard myth (Oerth?) Io killed himself to give potential to the world to be created (he resurrected later), while in the Council of Wyrms, Io cut his own belly to create the Blood Chain Islands (a perfect home for dragons). And in the Dawn War/Nentir Vale setting, there is this myth about Io dying and that Bahamut and Tiamat were born from his corpse, while the dragonborn race was born from his blood.
Even more, one of the kobold creations myths, when Io taught dragons to create stuff from their own blood, but dragons were unable to create other dragons, creating kobolds instead (from Races of the Dragons and referenced in the Grand History of the Realms). It seems that dragons somehow dominate blood magic.
My point being that, if a myth is repeated of many worlds (either repeated word by word, or just by having its motifs reflected in other myths and legends), is more likely that this myth is closer to the truth, that a myth that is known just on a single world. Io creating dragons in all the mythologies on the multiverse, means that Io is the creator of dragons in all the multiverse (of which the Forgotten Realms is a part of), and the only thing left to discover is how this happened (as details differ from myth to myth); while stuff like the Book of the World (that is only known in Faerūn) and the creation myth of Eberron are more like individual takes based on limited, biased perspectives, that are far from the truth.
quote:
On the Sarrukh and draconic myths and "which is older".... yep, totally agree... I believe its worth exploring all three of these stories (Sarrukh, Maztican, and draconic) for some correlation. It very much feels like they are part of the same story, but each with something wrong.
Rather than wrong, I think is a matter of perspective. Each people take the story that is related to them, and tell it from their perspective of things (like, all those stories about a Great Flood in all the old religions and mythologies of our world). So, dragons/proto-dragons, the sarrukh and the Mazticans all may have their own perspective of the tale, all colored by their unique experiences and how old those tales are and how they had being warped by being retold by the later generations. I think the Maztican one must be the one most warped, as dragons are inhumanly monolithic in their way of thinking (like, their language has barely changed in tens of thousands of years), and the sarrukh version is unchanged since the destruction of their civilization (though, it may have had many versions during the age of the sarrukh empires).
quote:
I've said before, to me it would seem that Parrafaire, Qotal, and Ubtao are all 3 the same entity...
IIRC, BRJ posited the possibility that Qotal was actually Xymor (Bahamut's former identity).
quote:
and then some folks will have a definite problem with this as they'll start that "Shar" was already existing.... and others will say that Ssharstrune was the original amalgam of Shar and Selune before she split.
Don't worry, Ed Greenwood already confirmed that the Netherese mythology is just that, mythology (well, he actually said that they shouldn't be taken at face value, but still), the other day on his Discord channel (in the patreon-only channel, so I don't have access to the info right now, but I can ask for it, if you want it). So, we can easily discard all the messy Netherese mythology, that doesn't match with the myths of the other cultures of that world, anyways. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Dec 2023 : 22:47:42
Yes, Bahamut and Tiamat are "tied" to Chromatic and Metallic dragons... but reread the story in the book of the world. Essentially, Asgorath "dies" from "shards of the crystal sun"... and from them come red dragons (at least colored red... it could be argued they were ruby dragons mind you)... but at the same time there's one unique dragon "the renegade" who turns around and spills its blood and this creates the metallics. Then it hints that the "renegade" is possibly Bahamut. It should also be noted that that "story" is also a bit unclear about whether Asgorath died, because at the end, after all the "spawn of asgorath" release their breath upon her... she begins to stir and "the renegade" flees.
On the Sarrukh and draconic myths and "which is older".... yep, totally agree... I believe its worth exploring all three of these stories (Sarrukh, Maztican, and draconic) for some correlation. It very much feels like they are part of the same story, but each with something wrong. I've said before, to me it would seem that Parrafaire, Qotal, and Ubtao are all 3 the same entity.... especially since Ubtao is linked to great reptile like dinosaurs as well as couatls. We also know that Zaltec is represented as a being similar to a tyrannosaur. In some ways, it would seem like "Ssharstrune" corrupting "Shekinester" into multiple personalities... probably did eventually split into separate entities.... possibly Shar (as the CE Weaver who focuses on destruction), Tiamat (as the LE acquirer)... and then some folks will have a definite problem with this as they'll start that "Shar" was already existing.... and others will say that Ssharstrune was the original amalgam of Shar and Selune before she split.
On Zotha and its form... yep... DEFINITELY agree... it could also be a winged aboleth as you say. With no claws, a long tail, wings, and a "maw" at the front... it could have also been a "winged serpent"... you know, like Jazirian as a couatl. The point being so many people focus on Ed saying its like a manta ray... but he doesn't explicitly call it a manta ray. We have a general shape... now is that shape purely tied to the far realm as an aberration? Is it an "aberration" of the elemental chaos itself and therefore a primordial like entity? Were the "original" dragons a bit less "draconic" looking that what we now picture them as.... and maybe their creators twisted them to have this newer form which includes a long neck sprouting from their shoulders on which a head sits.... and multiple appendages like claws to turn them into better "soldiers" for their service. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 08 Dec 2023 : 04:26:06
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
We must remember that Primordials were "using dragons as mounts" prior to the Tearfall. Whether that means they were physically riding them ... or they were "riding in their minds and using them like avatars" .... is debatable. But ultimately we don't know WHEN dragons came about.
My take would be that Asgorath/Io isn't necessarily the creator deity for ALL dragonkind.... people may think that, but he/she/it I view as more like a powerful primordial type entity that's tied primarily to Chromatic and Metallic dragons. Lung, Solar, Lunar, Steel, Song, Gemstone, Abyssal, Air, Shadow, Amber, Radiant, Mirage, etc... they may all actually trace their lineage elsewhere. Or, he may have created some of these other types BEFORE chromatic and metallic.
Actually, Bahamut and Tiamat are the ones tied with chromatic and metallic dragons. Io has always being related to ALL dragons and dragonkind-related creatures (like kobolds and dragonborn).
As for primordials using dragons as mounts, there are many other possibilities as well. We know that many worlds of the multiverse contradict the origin myth of dragons of the Realms, as those worlds state that dragons were created during the creation of the universe (by Io, in most legends). We also have the fossil records of the Realms (and other worlds), that show evidence of proto-draconic creatures (with Draconomicon 2e even saying that what the elves considered dragons in the Parwiccan Cycle may have been actually proto-dragons). What of Io created dragons as evolving creatures (as stated in one of the 3.x myths, Io created Bahamut and Tiamat with the purpose of creating the perfect dragon), and what the primordials enslaved were those proto-dragons? The are still "dragons", in the POV of elves and the other creatures who reccorded those stories.
And then we have the current 5e canon lore about the First World, the world that predates all the current worlds of D&D (the Realms included), of which dragons were its original inhabitants... So, there are many ways to solve this enigma.
quote:
but it might be that "The Sun" as an "impregnated crystal sun filled with solar dragons" may have been representative of Shekinester... and then "Ssharstrune" is the one who as "the night serpent" ascends the spindle and activates SOMETHING that assaults Shekinester.. merging the two entities somehow and corrupting/splitting Shekinester. This obviously plays with the language of a lot of these stories, but it may show a path that "the mortal mind" may use to explain sudden deific changes that would be beyond their comprehension.
This can be said to be the sarrukh interpretation of the draconic (or proto-draconic) myth about Io. But we don't know which myth/legend is older. In Monster Mythology, it seems that Io and Shekinester are usually paired in a group of really old deities that also includes Jazirian, Blipdoolpolp and Merrshaulk.
quote:
Finally, we're told that Zotha is like a manta ray... but its description is vague... some people could vaguely describe a dragon in a similar way if it had no legs.
"some priesthoods, elder dragons, and sages believe that Zotha was a huge, flying being that in outward form resembled a real-world manta ray (having a flat, roughly diamond shaped body of two "wings" depending out from a central body with a maw at the front and a long, long tail at the back)"
Don't forget that Ed also stated that all the Underdark aberrations were born from the fragments of Zotha. For all we know, Zotha could have been a winged aboleth. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Dec 2023 : 15:49:11
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, the problem with that theory is that there are solar dragon eggs in the sun... like, this means Asgorath/Io already had created dragons.
We must remember that Primordials were "using dragons as mounts" prior to the Tearfall. Whether that means they were physically riding them ... or they were "riding in their minds and using them like avatars" .... is debatable. But ultimately we don't know WHEN dragons came about.
My take would be that Asgorath/Io isn't necessarily the creator deity for ALL dragonkind.... people may think that, but he/she/it I view as more like a powerful primordial type entity that's tied primarily to Chromatic and Metallic dragons. Lung, Solar, Lunar, Steel, Song, Gemstone, Abyssal, Air, Shadow, Amber, Radiant, Mirage, etc... they may all actually trace their lineage elsewhere. Or, he may have created some of these other types BEFORE chromatic and metallic.
In fact, I personally like the idea if "feathered dragons" like the mirage dragons that come from the feywild might trace their ancestry back to Jazirian/Kukul (Kukulkan)...
As another aside... and this I'm not married to... but it might be that this "blasting of the crystal sun filled with solar dragons and corrupting them into chromatic dragons".... one might actually have the mirroring of the world that creates a "bright side" in the form of the feywild and a "dark side" in the form of the shadowfell... it might have started with this act.
As a third aside, what we "know" of the Spindle on H'Catha and how it "fills the mind of the person who uses it with all knowledge".... obviously this is one of those things that noone knows with certainty, but it may be that this spindle is how this being "Ascended" to becoming an almighty immortal being. It might also be responsible for literally driving him/her/it insane and possibly even splitting its persona into individual separate personalities. This could use some work (and interested in hearing other spins)... but it might be that "The Sun" as an "impregnated crystal sun filled with solar dragons" may have been representative of Shekinester... and then "Ssharstrune" is the one who as "the night serpent" ascends the spindle and activates SOMETHING that assaults Shekinester.. merging the two entities somehow and corrupting/splitting Shekinester. This obviously plays with the language of a lot of these stories, but it may show a path that "the mortal mind" may use to explain sudden deific changes that would be beyond their comprehension.
Finally, we're told that Zotha is like a manta ray... but its description is vague... some people could vaguely describe a dragon in a similar way if it had no legs.
"some priesthoods, elder dragons, and sages believe that Zotha was a huge, flying being that in outward form resembled a real-world manta ray (having a flat, roughly diamond shaped body of two "wings" depending out from a central body with a maw at the front and a long, long tail at the back)" |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 07 Dec 2023 : 03:58:18
Well, the problem with that theory is that there are solar dragon eggs in the sun... like, this means Asgorath/Io already had created dragons.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Dec 2023 : 19:47:14
The more I think on this concept of the entries we have on Asgorath/Asgoroth.... the more I think the best thing we can do is to separate the two entries about an "ice moon named Zotha" and a "Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought".
Firstly, indeed, there is something from Ed about Zotha describing it as a giant manta ray that floats in wildspace... which may be the spelljammer.. or the parent of the spelljammer... or just the same species as the spelljammer... or entirely unrelated.
From the 1e draconomicon "Book of the World"... note it just says that Zotha CREATED the crystal sun
The World was still flat, here before the beginning of Time, before Asgorath the World-Shaper folded the cloth of existence into its final form. The World was flat, and above it hung the Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down. Asgorath soared above the World and looked down upon it, and she saw that it was good.
And so Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it. And the Crystal Sun burst into fragments that pierced the flesh of Asgorath, and her blood fell on the World. Where the drops fell, the Powers of the World and the Powers of the Crystal Sun came together, and the Spawn of Asgorath came forth upon the face of the World.
So, this giant manta ray created a crystal sun. This was over a world that was "flat". Do we have a world that's flat in realmspace? Yep... H'Catha. What else is special about this world? It's flat with a giant "spindle" or mountain that's essentially pointed at the sun that it orbits. Also, there is a moon (Turnbetl) that's surrounded by a gas that explodes whenever exposed to oxygen... almost like its there to fuel something. Also, that spindle... if its methodically climbed by a being whose brain is bigger than 2 feet in diameter so that they pass by a bunch of special spots... all of a sudden their brain is FILLED with a mass of knowledge. How big is a primordial dragon's brain? Also, this "Spindle" is thought to have been created by a "god of the beholders"... or in essence an aberration deity... as a test for beholders.
So, the original sun was a "planet" set aflame by the gods. Perhaps it was a giant crystal... perhaps its outer shell was crystal and giving off heat... and its interior contained solar dragon eggs. Then Asgorath "fired its breath" ... or somehow used H'Catha as some kind of giant power focus... and this corrupts these solar dragon eggs and destroys this sun. Then an ice age follows. The being known as Zotha becomes frozen, floating in wild space like a giant ice moon. Asgorath is killed as well by giant shards of this crystal sun and its body parts fall on the various planets of realmspace.
For those willing to look into the myths of Shekinester, Ssharstrune, Jazirian, Parrafaire... these shards of Asgorath are the "remains of Ssharstrune" that are hidden away by Parrafaire.
Later, Batrachi find parts of Asgorath and enact a ritual to return it and other primordials back to the world. Asgorath goes into realmspace, finds the frozen body of Zotha, and hurls it at Toril. In this, while Zotha is a "manta ray like being"... I also wonder if it might not have had a strong tie to the element of Water... which might even more make its body be like a frozen ball of ice. Thus, the formation of a giant sea when its body melts. Its frozen body may have held dragon eggs suspended in it from the destruction of the crystal sun.
Just my personal take based on thinking about this for a while. As I've seen, this theory can be skewed into a bajillion loops if one puts their mind to it... but this one at least starts to make somewhat sense. It would also somewhat imply that aberrations may have been some of the original inhabitants of realmspace.
Ed's notes on Zotha are here
[url]https://web.archive.org/web/20210516212012/https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1199108030299885568[url]
Asgorath
|
| Athreeren |
Posted - 06 Dec 2023 : 09:57:39
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by chargerrich
Book of the World - 1990 Draconomicon sourcebook states that the lore bending Asgorath :) grabs a god, primordial, entity named Zotha that we mortals view as a moon? down upon the planet.
If you dig around enough for lore on Zotha you may happen upon threads here which heavily tie in Zotha with an ancient Spelljammer and a supreme deity of aberrations. Due to the shifting of time, a disco-ball comet/asteroid was where it wasn't a second ago. A gigantic manta-ray in space flies through what was supposed to be empty space but now there's a giant glittering disco ball in the same space as it. The manta-ray/spaceship explodes into gore and the different parts of its brain, heart, and guts created different aberrant deities and species.
An ancient spaceship that is shaped like a gigantic manta-ray, and it's not THE Spelljammer? |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 06 Dec 2023 : 02:44:40
quote:
Originally posted by chargerrich
Book of the World - 1990 Draconomicon sourcebook states that the lore bending Asgorath :) grabs a god, primordial, entity named Zotha that we mortals view as a moon? down upon the planet.
If you dig around enough for lore on Zotha you may happen upon threads here which heavily tie in Zotha with an ancient Spelljammer and a supreme diety of abberations. Due to the shifting of time, a disco-ball comet/asteroid was where it wasn't a second ago. A gigantic manta-ray in space flies through what was supposed to be empty space but now there's a giant glittering disco ball in the same space as it. The manta-ray/spaceship explodes into gore and the different parts of its brain, heart, and guts created different aberrant dieties and species.
It's an insane jumble of words, but Ed himself tweeted about the Crystal Moon and the Manta Ray just last year iirc.
Edit: I got SOMETHING wrong but not sure what. Hitting up old scrolls..
quote:
Ed also stated from fragments of Zotha, Asgorath couldn't kill, were born many aberrations
candlekeep dot com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24248
quote:
Zotha was destroyed when it was struck by a large comet that the batrachi called asgoroth. They believed this comet (that appeared every few centuries) was a gigntic sea serpent that swam through the black ocean of night. As with most creatures everyone worshipped these celestial bodies as gods. That doesnt make them gods. They were just large lumps of rock. Asgoroth would pass closer to toril with each pass until it eventually struck zotha. . . . That's how I'm spinning it
candlekeep dot com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21516&whichpage=2
|
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 05 Dec 2023 : 02:14:39
There are the Laerakondan legends (the oldest ancestor stories of the dragonborn clans and the like), whose stories coincide with the sarrukh and batrachi legends. |
| chargerrich |
Posted - 04 Dec 2023 : 14:39:57
This thread has been very informative, I really appreciate the comprehensive replies.
Given that this is ancient history and therefore is completely acceptable - even preferred - to have alternative theories and dogmas, I want to compile all the known beliefs for the Tearfall event of -31000 DR.
Here is what I have so far, in no particular order. Would love a confirmation that this is all or guidance on alternative theories.
Sarrukh Texts - Crytpic and incomplete but mention "a changing of the stars"
Parwiccan Cycle - Collection of elven myths that intimates this was a natural disaster of epic proportions that reshaped the lands and perhaps brought dragons to the realms by way of eggs on/in/replacing the meteors. This is backed in part by Jotunbrud accounts of the time tell a similar story.
Book of the World - 1990 Draconomicon sourcebook states that the lore bending Asgorath :) grabs a god, primordial, entity named Zotha that we mortals view as a moon? down upon the planet.
Batrachi / 4e version - Zhoukoudien the Batrachi leader is killed during the war with Ostoria and the Batrachi leaders make the ill fated decision to perform the great "summoning" to release the primordials who unsurprisingly do not help the war against the giants but attack the gods. During this one primordial Asgorath/Io grabs an ice moon and throws it upon the planet, which leads Ao to say enough and splits the world to end the war...
Are there any other Tearfall alternative histories/theories? |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 04 Dec 2023 : 00:13:22
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And it was his ancestors that fired the magic space laser at an object millions of miles away, instead of going for the mythal itself only a few thousand miles away.
To be fair, we know the Mythal had some nasty anti-dragon traps (per The Ruin). Couple that with madness induced by the Rage, and you can see why some dragons believed it was better to destroy the King-Killer Star (not that I'm saying the idea makes sense, just that the dragons thinking that idea makes sense - they were insane at that point, and desperate).
As for why the dragons never made a second attempt, there are many potential answers there, but the most likely thing is that they descended into madness by the Rage, and the knowledge of how transform the Weave into dragon space lasers was lost. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Dec 2023 : 04:46:52
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
(some time before -349 DR, but well within a dragon's lifetime) Kisonraathiisar tries to solve the worst problem of dragonkind head-on by shooting King-Killer Star with a fun sized magical weapon; the first shot only grazes the moon, creating Tears. It would take much time to adjust and recharge this doomsday device.
(-349 DR) Kisonraathiisar is killed by Saldrinar before he could try again. Note it's in the relatively recent era of Netheril and Calimshan.
There's some incorrect information here. Kisonraathiisar was being tortured, and spoke of having brief moments of lucidity -- during which he recorded stuff he'd learned, via research, about his ancestors. And it was his ancestors that fired the magic space laser at an object millions of miles away, instead of going for the mythal itself only a few thousand miles away. His ancestors, who apparently only took the one poorly-aimed shot, somehow hit the moon, creating the Tears but not leaving any visible damage on the moon, and also somehow created the Sea of Fallen Stars, in the process.
So we have a narrator who isn't in his right mind saying something he read about having happened thousands of years before, and describing events that are utterly nonsensical.
There are few examples of Realmslore better suited for the unreliable narrator claim than this one.
On reflection, I can buy the idea that there was some sort of magic laser made there -- but the rest of the tale is preposterous. If there was a magic space laser, it's more likely it was fired at some other (CLOSER!) object, and that it wasn't fired a second time because it successfully hit and destroyed its target. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Dec 2023 : 04:40:32
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, the dragon laser was a good, lore accurate thing? Certain hamster will not be happy
Dragon Laser supposedly true... but I don't know where the part about it being relatively recent comes from.
It should also be noted... while non canon... Realmspace spelljammer product does mention the tears appearing and being noted by like a Kara-turan emperor. One thing I've wondered as well is whether the tears have possibly periodically passed from Abeir to Toril.
The Hooded One once said, in these halls, that a TSR staffer (whom she didn't name) had said at a GenCon that not all of Realmspace was canon -- but she didn't have more information than that. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Nov 2023 : 23:49:16
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, the dragon laser was a good, lore accurate thing? Certain hamster will not be happy
Dragon Laser supposedly true... but I don't know where the part about it being relatively recent comes from.
It should also be noted... while non canon... Realmspace spelljammer product does mention the tears appearing and being noted by like a Kara-turan emperor. One thing I've wondered as well is whether the tears have possibly periodically passed from Abeir to Toril. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Nov 2023 : 23:46:20
By the way, as long as we're talking meteoric collisions and such.... we do have somewhere from Ed that Halruaa's big lake is from a meteoric crashing. We don't have a when. Given how magical Halruaa is and the interest by the Netherese, it would not surprise me at all if the myth of Mystryl coming from Selune hurling a portion of herself through Shar and the combined being becoming Mystryl might not have something to do with this crash (i.e. some physical portion of the goddess's creation is in Halruaa). It also wouldn't surprise me if this crash wouldn't "coincide" with ... in the shadow epoch... "the Night Serpent swallowed the sun". By that I mean "Physical form of Mystra in some form crashes into what will become Halruaa long ago.... causes MASSIVE dust cloud... sun is shrouded... ice age for a period of time". |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 30 Nov 2023 : 02:11:37
So, the dragon laser was a good, lore accurate thing? Certain hamster will not be happy |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 29 Nov 2023 : 19:22:32
quote:
Originally posted by chargerrich
1. Is the splitting of Abeir-Toril a pure 4e/spellplague retcon/consquence? I believe the answer is yes because of the tablets of fate lore.
"Abeir" was never used separately before AFAIK, therefore yes.
quote:
3. So is the above now called the first sundering? its confusing because of the -17600 DR sundering.
See also "demonweave" and other "creativity" by copypasta.
quote:
5. The lore behind the Batrachi "great summoning" to release imprisoned primoridials is a 4e retcon, correct?
The "primoridials" were not a thing before 4e, therefore yes.
quote:
6. Is it accurate to say that in a pre-4e world, their was just a major cataclysm/planet wide meteor storm that created the sea of fallen stars?
IIRC, yes.
quote:
7. Is it also accurate to say in a pre-4e world, that meteor storm MAY have included dragon eggs or the climate change accelerated proto-dragons to become dragons?
It seems that thereās general confusion about the Tearfall, which comes from Parwiccan Cycle, i.e. some ancient elves failed to tell the story clearly. Which is at least as old (officially) as Draconomicon.
Meteor bombardment also caused a long winter due to particulates in air; how long is ambiguous, but a reasonable guess was 7 months long winter (in the area where those elves lived). Which would be not quite a major extinction event, but enough to cull (or at very least weaken and distract) anyone unprepared, even the Creator Races. This also could explain why after the dust settled only the Aearee were in any shape to fight dragons (presumably young and disorganized by and large): they were more mobile and could respond simply by migrating to the tropics for a while.
This part of The Grand History of the Realms timeline does not seem to contradict any earlier lore:
(-31000 DR) "the changing of the stars" and rain of dragon eggs.
(-25000 DR) Dracorage happens
(some time before -349 DR, but well within a dragon's lifetime) Kisonraathiisar tries to solve the worst problem of dragonkind head-on by shooting King-Killer Star with a fun sized magical weapon; the first shot only grazes the moon, creating Tears. It would take much time to adjust and recharge this doomsday device.
(-349 DR) Kisonraathiisar is killed by Saldrinar before he could try again. Note it's in the relatively recent era of Netheril and Calimshan.
Possibly the event of -31000 DR was also the one that created the Sea of Fallen Stars. It's not certain, but likely: according to the Sea of Fallen Stars timeline emigration from EiellĆ»r, SyĆ²rpiir, and Thearnytaar started circa -17000 DR; the sea had to already exist  and there are not many known events catastrophic enough to do this before that point.
Also, by some in-universe accounts the Tears of Selune may be much more recent than that. Which fits with GHotR timeline too. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 29 Nov 2023 : 18:32:06
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
5. The lore behind the Batrachi "great summoning" to release imprisoned primoridials is a 4e retcon, correct?
yes, this came from 4e FRCG in the history section. I am interested in where Zeromarux says that the batrachi and Asgorath are linked in material prior to 4e, as I may have
missed something, but I don't think this was ever linked prior to 4e.
From Brian R, James stuff: one of the Candlekeep magazines that talks about dragons (that you can download here in the website) and his "A Grand History of the Realms" (his fan one, before WotC used the name for the official book). He mentions that the Batrachi summoned Asgorath, she didn't like it and destroyed the Batrachi.
I guess what 4e did was to canonize the idea, publishing it in an official book (the FRCG), but the idea was already there at least since early 3e.
quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
Regarding the Tablets of Fate, I don't remember where or when I read that after they were destroyed, the world became less stable and pieces of Abeir and Toril would randomly swap. A process which accelerated when the Spellplague began. If Abeir was not a thing before 4E though, it was probably a retcon.
From a video about the panel in a GenCon or something, where they presented their ideas on the Sundering lore they were going to use in 5e. Most of these ideas were never used, but the one about the Tablets of Fate has been referenced in Ed Greenwood's stuff. |
| Athreeren |
Posted - 29 Nov 2023 : 07:19:11
Regarding the Tablets of Fate, I don't remember where or when I read that after they were destroyed, the world became less stable and pieces of Abeir and Toril would randomly swap. A process which accelerated when the Spellplague began. If Abeir was not a thing before 4E though, it was probably a retcon. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Nov 2023 : 00:02:23
First, let me say that what I'm about to say isn't to knock Zeromarux, because they are very very good at finding links to things from all the various editions. However, some of the answers I think they give are a bit colored by not necessarily seeing things unfold in real time and having a somewhat unique viewpoint compared to others for having come to the realms (if I remember right) with the advent of 4e. So, I'm going to take a stab at answering some of your questions from my viewpoint. I may be wrong, as so much time has passed, and my memory isn't what it was... and I've got the muddled reference of having seen the game progress through the many editions, but NOT having all the resources of a given edition until much later.
One thing to bear in mind when saying that something happened in 3e versus 4e is that a lot of these things mentioned were put forth literally at the end of 3e (for instance Dragon 359 was the very last dragon mag I believe). So, some of these things were probably put forth and revealed to people just a few weeks/months prior to the switch. That being said, I do recommend reading that dragon mag article though, as it has a lot of mysteries revealed (such as the Tasha being Iggwilv and related to Baba Yaga that some people were surprised to find out in 5e). That same article has hints about the "upcoming reveal" of "what is Abeir" as well.
On to your questions
1. Is the splitting of Abeir-Toril a pure 4e/spellplague retcon/consquence? I believe the answer is yes because of the tablets of fate lore.
Yes, the splitting of the world into two worlds is a 4e thing. Jeff Grubb called the world Abeir-Toril, but Ed just called it Toril. But the idea of splitting the world was a 4e thing.
2. Are there any other 4e retcons that are specific to the creation mythologies?
Don't confuse the creation myth of Shar/Selune with the splitting of the world. The idea of Mystryl coming from something being hurled through Shar is not necessarily tied to the various sunderings. If that's not what you meant, then disregard my answer.
3. So is the above now called the first sundering? its confusing because of the -17600 DR sundering.
The SAGES have come up with this terminology of the various "sunderings"... and they pieced this story together AFTER the spellplague happened. So, think of it like this in short... BAM ... world changes happen from spellplague... new people show up with various historical "facts"... these historical "facts" seem to be somewhat similar if one looks VERY far back in time to a point which modern faerunian sages still only have tenuous details about. So, the SAGES come up with this explanation for what happened. They call the tearfall event "The First Sundering". They call the shift back "The Second Sundering". They call the changes caused by the elves "The Elven Sundering". Now, did Ao "twin the world" or did the timestream just create an "alternate timeline" .... well, the SAGES say Ao twinned the world... but did Ao tell them that? Hells no. So, how the hell would they KNOW. For all we know, Ao and Io are the same being
4. So are all three sunderings in fact 4e/spellplague retcons?
The elven "sundering" or "creation of Evermeet" is not a 4e thing. It should be noted that AS WE UNDERSTAND IT this "sundering" had to do with a physical reshaping of the various continents of the world and a pulling of land from Faerie to Toril. Now "what is Faerie?" is unclear, and many believe that the elves didn't come from another plane so much as another world. In theory, Faerie may be another planet in another "crystal sphere"/"wildspace system" and they may have simply pulled a continent from their home world to Toril to make Evermeet.... or it may be "the Feywild" .... or it may be yet ANOTHER plane. Hell, we may even find out that the "flood" that affected the island of Tintageer was a repercussion caused by the actions of the elves who LATER ON would cause a disruption when moving the continent.
The "first sundering" to create Abeir is a 4e thing. The "second sundering" to return lands to Toril is a 5e thing.
5. The lore behind the Batrachi "great summoning" to release imprisoned primoridials is a 4e retcon, correct?
yes, this came from 4e FRCG in the history section. I am interested in where Zeromarux says that the batrachi and Asgorath are linked in material prior to 4e, as I may have
missed something, but I don't think this was ever linked prior to 4e.
6. Is it accurate to say that in a pre-4e world, their was just a major cataclysm/planet wide meteor storm that created the sea of fallen stars?
Yes, there's a lot of hints to this effect. GHotR calls it the Tearfall, but the name itself hints to this.
7. Is it also accurate to say in a pre-4e world, that meteor storm MAY have included dragon eggs or the climate change accelerated proto-dragons to become dragons?
GHotR hints to this effect. There's probably some earlier stuff in 3e as well.
8. Asgorath in particular seems to have some of the most conflicting lore - Asgorath versus Io, A primordial or a deity? He or She? Did he/she get split in half to create Tiamat and Bahamut and if so how was she around millennia later for her role in grabbing a moon and crashing it upon the planet? She created the lady of pain???
I am struggling to determine how much of the Asgorath story is because of the 4e retcon and what her role would be in say a canonical version of 3.5
Yep, did she "hurl an ice moon named Zotha" at the world or did she "breathe fire upon a crystal sun that shattered and killed her". Did Erek-Hus kill Asgorath here or is that another time in another world?
Here's where I like to posit a theory which hasn't gotten a lot of tread here, but I think it works. We have more than just Toril in this crystal sphere, and one of those other worlds is known for 3 races... Coliar... its a world of small "earth islands" and "water islands" rotating around. Its inhabited by sauroids (lizard men) and bird folk and dragons. The dragons are treated like ascended beings there... almost like they are worshipped. All the races of this world also like to put their eggs onto transports and have them revolve around the sun to enhance the eggs. So, "after the Tearfall" we have the sudden appearance of this "Aearee" culture. We have a falling of dragon eggs. I put forth that this has ties to Coliar. There may have been a "crystal sun" that was in essence a clear crystal surrounding a ball of ice that somehow was transmitting radiant energy or somesuch. Maybe it had dragon eggs inside it and Asgorath breathed on it and then a rain of dragon eggs encased in ice happened.... or maybe there were dragon eggs orbiting this local sun in hopes that it would enhance the eggs.
In this theory, the "sauroids" of Coliar might be lizard folk or "Old Ones" (see https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Old_One) or even dragonborn... or even all three. Thus the creator race known as the "Aearee" may have consisted of the bird folk of Coliar in alliance or "led" by the "old ones"... and the conflict between the "old ones" and dragons may have also involved the dragons of Coliar in conflict with the dragons of Toril (for there were dragons that were the "mounts" of primordials). In short, you can drum up a pretty decent plot that can be done in many ways and which makes sense by involving Coliar with the tearfall. They may have even have brought "earthmotes" or "earth islands" from Coliar and bombarded the planet's surface with them.
It might also be worth noting that you CAN separate the "hurling of the ice moon zotha" and the "breathing fire on the crystal sun and destroying it" by simply saying that "the sages that know" are simply conflating different things that happened. So, for instance, per the 4e FRCG, the "Shadow Epoch" happened when the Night Serpent "Swallowed the sun"... prior to the rise of the Sarrukh. So, if there was a "Crystal Sun" and it was giving off warming light that "the night serpent" swallowed.. or breathed on and shattered it... then maybe that caused the Shadow Epoch. In this idea, we could fulfill the story of Jazirian, Shekinester, Ssharstrune, and ultimately "Parrafaire/Qotal/Ubtao".... i.e. the whole Jazirian impregnating Shekinester, Ssharstrune being jealous and attacking Shekinester, and Shekinester "swallowing"/"absorbing" Ssharstrune... and then her "child" Parrafaire having to hide away the dead body of Ssharstrune. If this is the case, then perhaps Shekinester "swallowing" Ssharstrune and the Night Serpent "swallowing the sun" are different interpretations of something similar.... and the truth lies somewhere in the middle with a crystalline sun in orbit suddenly going dark and creating the shadow epoch and a brief ice age.
It can be noted as well ... the serpentkind pantheon involving Jazirian, Shekinester, Ssharstrune, and Parrafaire... it very much can easily mirror Kukul (as Jazirian), Maztica (as Shekinester), Ssharstrune (as Zaltec), and Qotal (as Parrafaire). In the Maztican pantheon it is noted that Zaltec kills Maztica with a "maca of night", which is only a slight variation of "Shekinester swallowed Ssharstrune and was forced to divide into different personalities". In each, a being that we might view as involved with darkness forces another being to either die OR "become so different as to become a different individual".. also in both sets the father figure (Jazirian / Kukul ) goes away after the mother figure disappears (for Jazirian, he's supposedly slain by Merrshaulk). To note, the imagery of Ourobouros... a snake eating itself ... can very much be seen in these concepts, for all these deities are all aspects of the World Serpent that all end up consuming each other and often changing as a result.
As a side note, if you did do something like this... the idea that the crystal sun was something like a womb filled with the eggs of Shekinester that were "fertilized" by Jazirian... and then corrupted by Ssharstrune... well, it could have a good story.
And finally, can anyone point me to a definitive list of the changes/retcons from the spellplague/4e?
Yeah, if you find that, let me know.
|
| Delnyn |
Posted - 28 Nov 2023 : 04:27:01
The Tablets of Fate go back to the 1e to 2e transition of Dungeons and Dragons. You can read about them in the Avatar Trilogy (Shadowdale, Tantras, Waterdeep) back in 1989. In short, Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul stole the Tablets of Fate, which ticked off Ao after centuries of the gods neglecting their duties. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 28 Nov 2023 : 00:48:59
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Trying to go straight into the middle and use 4E rules with not-4E lore is just more effort than it's worth, in my opinion. I don't waste my time fixing things that other people broke.
I've played 4e rules in pre-4e timelines. There's really no significant change with the Lore except -maybe if you make it a bit deal- "eladrin" as Moon/Sun/Star elves. Most people on Faerūn still just call them gold or sun elves. Wizards still use spellbooks, Clerics still pray, paladins still Smite, etc. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 27 Nov 2023 : 19:40:51
I recommend you the read the wiki entry about the Tablets of Fate. But, long story short, the plot of the Tablets and their relationship with the Sundering was made for the Sundering novels, the plot to "undo 4e".
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tablets_of_Fate |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Nov 2023 : 19:27:47
I just simplify things.
Stick with pre-4E editions and pre-4E lore in which 4E doesn't exist and never happened.
Or move onto post-4E editions and post-4E lore which attempt to retcon the retcon so 4E is something "optional" you can handwave or pretend halfway exists only as necessary for your preferences.
Trying to go straight into the middle and use 4E rules with not-4E lore is just more effort than it's worth, in my opinion. I don't waste my time fixing things that other people broke. |
| chargerrich |
Posted - 27 Nov 2023 : 17:42:31
[quote]Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Seems to be the case, but mind that the Tablets of Fate bit was a 5e retcon, not something created for 4e.
[quote]
Can you expand on this? I cannot find any 5e references to the tablets of fate but plenty going back to at least second edition.
Thank you. |
|
|
