| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Azar |
Posted - 15 Feb 2023 : 19:27:26
Greetings.
While reading Volo's Guide to The North, I came across the "The Fallen Tower" establishment and noted the following tidbit ->
quote:
The Provender
The tavern serves only turtle soup, brown bread (with garlic butter, if you wish), and spicy sausages. Everything is salty, to make you order more drink, and there's a full selection of ales, lagers, sherries, brandies, wines, and exotic drinks such as zzar and elverquisst.
The only reason this gave me pause is because, historically speaking, salt was - especially during medieval times - a valuable resource. Naturally, the economy of The Forgotten Realms doesn't conform to Earth's economy, because the geography differs, the politics differ and there is magic in the mix, BUT...because many other commodities in The Realms are just as valuable as their real-life counterparts (e.g., silver, gold, coffee, cocoa beans, et cetera), I felt like inquiring in order to be sure of salt's worth. Given that the aforementioned establishment is located in Neverwinter of all places, it is likely that the proprietor can handle the expense of a little white gold if the (costlier) beverages are a big enough pull. |
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Azar |
Posted - 07 Mar 2023 : 21:49:47
I mean, they're either introduced on a mass scale and then they proceed to radically unbalance the battlefield (the idea being that magic isn't widespread enough to counter them and/or monsters aren't resilient enough to survive them) or they persist as just another variety of weapon, perfectly in balance with spell and sword. Neither outcome came to pass. |
| Karthak |
Posted - 07 Mar 2023 : 07:51:22
The FRA entry flip-flops between being canon and semi-optional material that can be ignored, 3e's mention seems to follow on from the "optional" timeline in FRA so I'm curious if the writers for 2e weren't allowed to do more with introducing guns into the Realms. |
| Azar |
Posted - 07 Mar 2023 : 04:08:05
quote:
Originally posted by Karthak
quote:
I stick with canon (definitely no pun intended), because speculation is a wild vine that grows any way it pleases. AFAIK, guns weren't a semi-common fixture from 1995 onward. If the remaining supplements from TSR and those from WOTC up until 2014 or so were trying to convey the idea that the presence of firearms in The Realms was growing, then...they failed.
Besides the FRA which mentioned firearms and Thayan bombards using Smokepowder, the 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting mentions that Firearms are especially common on Lantan and amongst rock gnomes but are avaible across Faerun for anyone who can afford it. Sure it's a small mention but it's still a sign of firearms becoming more commonplace.
Going by the art, the named NPCs, the random encounters, the standing armies, the stores and so on and so forth, I would never guess that. To me, this seems like an option in the background (i.e., "You can have guns if you really want them.") rather than a tenet of setting design that influenced The Realms during the interim between the advent of 2e and today. |
| Karthak |
Posted - 07 Mar 2023 : 03:54:22
quote:
I stick with canon (definitely no pun intended), because speculation is a wild vine that grows any way it pleases. AFAIK, guns weren't a semi-common fixture from 1995 onward. If the remaining supplements from TSR and those from WOTC up until 2014 or so were trying to convey the idea that the presence of firearms in The Realms was growing, then...they failed.
Besides the FRA which mentioned firearms and Thayan bombards using Smokepowder, the 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting mentions that Firearms are especially common on Lantan and amongst rock gnomes but are avaible across Faerun for anyone who can afford it. Sure it's a small mention but it's still a sign of firearms becoming more commonplace.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Mar 2023 : 02:36:55
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Karthak
Forgotten Realms Adventures for 2e mentions them becoming common enough that large stores will carry Lantenese firearms about 5 years after the Time of Troubles and Thay also has cannons. Thereotically the hundred and forty-ish years between 2e and 5e should've made the technology a lot more widespread even with Lantan vanishing for a while.
I stick with canon (definitely no pun intended), because speculation is a wild vine that grows any way it pleases. AFAIK, guns weren't a semi-common fixture from 1995 onward. If the remaining supplements from TSR and those from WOTC up until 2014 or so were trying to convey the idea that the presence of firearms in The Realms was growing, then...they failed.
Since the 1st edition to 2nd edition FRA (by that I mean it was kind of an introductory book to 2e version of the realms), they introduced firearms. There were arquebuses, starwheel pistols, muskets, blunderbusses. They even introduced a small Lantanese field weapon called a ribald or "Gond's Pipes" that was basically 12 barrels on a carriage. Since the introduction of the realms there have been bombards from Thay (which admittedly were chemically powered instead of smokepowder powered). That's canon. There were stories of smokepowder being used to blast canals open. Was it everywhere? There were skyships that were essentially akin to hot air balloons or zepelins (sure, they used magic... and many of them looked more like a ship than a balloon ship... but some of them were balloon ships). Was it everywhere? No. But I don't see how introducing a market for rubber is going to break the world either. Some carriages might be an oddity using rubber encased wheels, and they maybe even have rubber suspensions on the wagon to give it a less jerky ride... maybe peasants don't have this, and its some luxury that nobles who can't afford a magical carriage can afford. Alchemists may want this new material and pay adventurers to protect a transport of the stuff. An enterprising druid may seek to import some trees into Chondath, only to have mercenaries come in and torch the grove. Interesting storylines, but not much different than if it were other commodities. |
| Azar |
Posted - 07 Mar 2023 : 01:09:04
quote:
Originally posted by Karthak
Forgotten Realms Adventures for 2e mentions them becoming common enough that large stores will carry Lantenese firearms about 5 years after the Time of Troubles and Thay also has cannons. Thereotically the hundred and forty-ish years between 2e and 5e should've made the technology a lot more widespread even with Lantan vanishing for a while.
I stick with canon (definitely no pun intended), because speculation is a wild vine that grows any way it pleases. AFAIK, guns weren't a semi-common fixture from 1995 onward. If the remaining supplements from TSR and those from WOTC up until 2014 or so were trying to convey the idea that the presence of firearms in The Realms was growing, then...they failed. |
| Karthak |
Posted - 07 Mar 2023 : 00:17:30
The only thing in 5e that I'm aware of has drow using Lantenese pistols which are basically wheel-locks.
Forgotten Realms Adventures for 2e mentions them becoming common enough that large stores will carry Lantenese firearms about 5 years after the Time of Troubles and Thay also has cannons. Thereotically the hundred and forty-ish years between 2e and 5e should've made the technology a lot more widespread even with Lantan vanishing for a while.
There's a bit from one of the Driz'zt novels where a gnome manages to acquire enough smokepowder from just the Sword Coast area in about 3 days to blow up a mountain, if I'm remembering correctly. |
| Azar |
Posted - 06 Mar 2023 : 23:41:43
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
We already have guns.
Ubiquitous firearms? Which edition? Muzzleloaders or something more advanced? How reliable are they? How expensive?
Unless a massive alteration to the setting happened to slip under my radar, even in 5e, The Realms aren't the Old United States West; now and again, you get some Lantanese Gnomes proposing grandiose ideas on revolutionizing warfare with their highly temperamental powder, but that is a far cry from six-shooters on every hip. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Mar 2023 : 22:51:42
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
In my opinion, when it comes to the default Forgotten Realms, anything tied to our Industrial Revolution or indicative of significant technological progress ought to be a curiosity and in no way a widespread development.
Not me. We already have guns. Plus, this would be technological progress coming from some people who were possibly trapped in a world without access to extreme magic for a while. The dragonborn for instance that came from Abeir are notedly more "crafty"/technological because of a lack of a strong weave on Abeir. Having people coming back from Abeir, in a place that faerun scorned as a primitive backwater, and finding them more technologically advanced in some ways appeals to me. It's definitely an improvement to the traditional Maztica. |
| Azar |
Posted - 06 Mar 2023 : 20:53:35
In my opinion, when it comes to the default Forgotten Realms, anything tied to our Industrial Revolution or indicative of significant technological progress ought to be a curiosity and in no way a widespread development. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Mar 2023 : 19:43:17
Kind of off topic, but kind of on topic, one thing that I thought would be interesting to use if we had Maztica / Katashaka returned to Toril was an idea that the creation of "vulcanized" rubber (would want a different, more realmsian name for it) may make the selling and use of rubber a relatively hot commodity. Things that might have been done previously by curing monster intestines to use as tubing, etc... might be able to be done with rubber tubing. Wagon wheels coated in rubber might be more effective. Creation of constructs with rubber gaskets at joints might be more effective. |
| Azar |
Posted - 06 Mar 2023 : 01:29:11
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Considering the standard wages earned by commoners, yeah...I'd say that sort of sugar is fairly pricey.
Aurora's goods are not priced for commoners. They're for wealthy adventurers and elites. And they might even be procured from other worlds, so I'd suspect they're not really representative of the Realms.
I recoil at the thought of bargain-basement sugar manufactured with quasi-medieval means (yeah, magic was deliberately omitted). Anyhow, the gist of it is that most people in The Realms probably do not have the luxury of ensuring a good surplus of granulated sugar in their homes; a quantity that you or I may take for granted is positively luxurious to them. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Mar 2023 : 13:08:19
quote:
Considering the standard wages earned by commoners, yeah...I'd say that sort of sugar is fairly pricey.
Aurora's goods are not priced for commoners. They're for wealthy adventurers and elites. And they might even be procured from other worlds, so I'd suspect they're not really representative of the Realms. |
| Athreeren |
Posted - 04 Mar 2023 : 12:21:46
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
For those having a very vague idea as to how and why things worked before British Empire / British Empire 2.0: transportation costs was the overwhelming force that shaped a pre-modern economical landscape, political landscape and human influence on, well, landscape landscape.
See in concentrated form at A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry. It's good (the author does occasionally suffer obvious "Yes - Dnyarri - I - wish - to - know - about - flowers" style digressions, but very rarely).
Highly seconded. I particularly recommend the articles on his Resources for World Builders page, notably the Bread/Clothing/Iron How Did They Make It series. I wish he did a series on non-military logistics, and one on architecture, to complete this general view of pre-modern life. |
| Azar |
Posted - 04 Mar 2023 : 04:29:11
quote:
Originally posted by AJA
I believe Ed has said that most sweeteners used in the Realms are things like honey and sugar beet rather than cane sugar (refined or otherwise), but I don't have a reference handy.
Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue has "sugar" under "Priest's Alcove" as 2gp/cube and 6gp/.5lb. of granular. Given the general content of Aurora's, I would assume they're talking about sugar cane here.
And also "sugar" under "Sweeteners" as (per lb.);
brown 1gp
lavender 10gp
loaf 3gp
lemon 15gp
mace 35gp
orange 15gp
powdered 5gp
raw 5sp
rose 7gp
violet 8gp
And "maple sugar" under "Exotics" as 75gp/lb.
Considering the standard wages earned by commoners, yeah...I'd say that sort of sugar is fairly pricey. |
| AJA |
Posted - 04 Mar 2023 : 03:22:02
I believe Ed has said that most sweeteners used in the Realms are things like honey and sugar beet rather than cane sugar (refined or otherwise), but I don't have a reference handy.
Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue has "sugar" under "Priest's Alcove" as 2gp/cube and 6gp/.5lb. of granular. Given the general content of Aurora's, I would assume they're talking about sugar cane here.
And also "sugar" under "Sweeteners" as (per lb.);
brown 1gp
lavender 10gp
loaf 3gp
lemon 15gp
mace 35gp
orange 15gp
powdered 5gp
raw 5sp
rose 7gp
violet 8gp
And "maple sugar" under "Exotics" as 75gp/lb.
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| TBeholder |
Posted - 04 Mar 2023 : 01:54:32
For those having a very vague idea as to how and why things worked before British Empire / British Empire 2.0: transportation costs was the overwhelming force that shaped a pre-modern economical landscape, political landscape and human influence on, well, landscape landscape.
See in concentrated form at A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry. It's good (the author does occasionally suffer obvious "Yes - Dnyarri - I - wish - to - know - about - flowers" style digressions, but very rarely). |
| Azar |
Posted - 03 Mar 2023 : 23:43:51
How about refined sugar? Is it comparably inexpensive/plentiful? I once thought of creating a small fantasy red-light district (not in The Realms) where informed clientele visiting a peculiar business would discreetly leave a bit of sugar in their emptied cups in order to indicate an interest in securing the services of a madame for the night; details would be arranged in a separate location. This place would be called "Sugarbottom Alley". The idea was that if you were able to afford this sweet commodity, you were worth entertaining. |
| Athreeren |
Posted - 16 Feb 2023 : 08:26:58
In Harry Potter and the Natural 20, Milo realises that since salt is dirt cheap in the wizarding world compared to his world of origin (Oerth, I think), he can easily cast expensive spells by converting the price of the materials to the equivalent quantity of salt. The price given is five gold pieces per pound, although it is not clear whether this figure comes from a generalist source like the player's handbook, or something specific to Greyhawk. So it seems there are figures in official sourcebooks, although those should never be considered canon for questions related to the economy, if one doesn't want the world to implode immediately. |
| AJA |
Posted - 16 Feb 2023 : 01:15:20
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
The 3e FRCS lists several places that export salt. I know Ed has mentioned before that salt is commonly available.
He mentions it in his 2004 replies here;
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Greenwood, via The Hooded One (Apr 03 2004)
Alan, the salt trade is very important in the Realms. This, like so many other details of trade and trade-goods, has been neglected in print because of the continuing (and probably correct) judgement of TSR and later WotC managers that an all-trade or trade-focus product would not sell as well as an adventure or so-called “crunch” or “splat” books. (And please let’s not suggest it to them now! I mean, just how many merchant prestige classes does anyone want to see?)
Salt isn’t quite as important in the Realms as it has been in our real world, for two reasons: there are other means of preservation (salt’s primary importance was in preserving food so folk didn’t starve every winter, not as a seasoning -- it was POPULAR as a seasoning, yes, because it augments flavour, but there are a large array of other spices and condiments one can use for taste-altering purposes, even more in the Realms than our real world), and because salt has never been as scarce in the Realms as it has been in large areas of our real-world. In other words, in Faerun you can always get some salt fairly cheaply, from a nearby source, so shipping sacks of it becomes less important.
So exactly where is all this natural-source salt? Well, in many salt marshes (ladle the water out on large, flat sunbaked rocks, or rocks over which you spread large expanses of black cloth) such as the Flooded Forest between the Moonsea and the Dragonreach, the Adder Swamp in Chessenta, the Spider Swamp, and Rethild (The Great Swamp); and as naturally washing-up-on-rocks deposits around certain shores (such as the Lake of Steam and around Azulduth the Lake of Salt), and in dryland form in places where there were once large bodies of water (there are huge salt plains in Anauroch and Raurin). There are also salt mines in Chult, Calimshan, under certain islands in the Korinn Archipelago and north of Mintarn, in the mountains girdling Amn, in the Orsraun Mountains, and so on and on and on. The point is, salt is plentiful; its expense comes primarily from shipping this heavy commodity, because (given the various aquatic and subterranean races present in the Realms), gleaning the salt isn’t all that difficult. Many gnome families make a good living mining small salt deposits and trundling the results to the nearest human town or village market, so you won’t find a “Salt Road” or salt caravans (though you will often find a salt wagon in a mixed goods-caravan).
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| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 16 Feb 2023 : 00:24:01
quote:
Originally posted by Karthak
Given the tavern located in a coastal city, salt should be cheap to the point of almost being free since it should be able to be easily collected and processed locally most of the year round, being further from the coast should moderately increase the prices since the only other major source of salt for the sword coast area is apparently the Anauroch and I believe there's very few trade routes into the sword coast from there compared to trade routes from the coast.
I'll echo this about coastal cities being able to easily obtain salt: boil water until it leaves the crust and use that salt.
Having said that, this isn't "healthy" salt...as in ground salt that will have the other nutrients needed from salt to prevent illness.
I won't go into big detail, but prevention of goiter from consumption of iodine is what most salt was truly prized for. |
| Karthak |
Posted - 15 Feb 2023 : 21:32:10
Given the tavern located in a coastal city, salt should be cheap to the point of almost being free since it should be able to be easily collected and processed locally most of the year round, being further from the coast should moderately increase the prices since the only other major source of salt for the sword coast area is apparently the Anauroch and I believe there's very few trade routes into the sword coast from there compared to trade routes from the coast.
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| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 15 Feb 2023 : 20:16:22
The 3e FRCS lists several places that export salt. I know Ed has mentioned before that salt is commonly available. |
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