| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 08 Jan 2023 : 07:28:08
So much of what we use for measurement(particularly in the customary system) had their origins in Earth real world events. Think about for example, degrees Fahrenheit, Celsius or Kelvin. I doubt Realmsians use terms named after scientists from Earth. Are there any unique measurement names (with conversion factors hopefully) that exist in canon? I could see that being a very Ed thing to create. |
| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 01:19:24
Aurora’s Catalogue probably has something.
Also, container sizes are not exactly measures, but don't vary much, so used this way. FtR: What’s He Got in His Wagons? lists what is common merchant usage for handkeg, keg, hogshead/great keg/tun, coffer, strongchest, longbox and crate.
There are standards enforced locally (e.g. Cormyr), but they might be funny sometimes:
quote:
Ed replies:
If you are promised a tankard of ale, there is an expectation that the tankard will be large enough to have a handle you can fit all of the fingers of your hand through, and that the tankard will descend at least two fingers below that handle and at least one finger above, in terms of the depth of interior space in the tankard that can be filled with drink, AND that said space is wide enough that all of fingers of your hand, squeezed together tightly, can be thrust down into that "hole." (YES, that means that drinkers with huge hands should be given larger tankards, or given more ale in other containers, per drink paid for. For everyone, it means no miniature "toy tankards," and no mugs that are only two inches deep, from lip to the "bell" [inside bottom].)
|
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 19 Jan 2023 : 19:12:03
I believe that alchemist and others that need specific, measured amounts would use something like the Apothecary system. A simplified version could be used for cooking. My vote follows Sleyvas' in that it would be a gnome thing, or it could be that the gnomes learned it from the Netherese (gnomes didn't have non-divine magic prior to their enslavement by the Netherese so if gnomes did have a system, it would have come from one of their gods).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apothecaries%27_system
Edit: the thought just occurred to me that maybe there was a system of measurement included in the Nether Scrolls and that is where a standard came from. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 19 Jan 2023 : 18:45:54
Most realms folks can get by with vague amounts. After all about half the world does it right now, and they get along just fine. The other half though, really needs to be specific.
Though, technically, Alchemists don't need to be specific...as "alchemy" is more "random guesswork". Though Realms Alchemy is a bit more Chemistry.
Though, there is also magic. And the Realms is a high magic setting at least in 1-3 E, though 5E tries to do the "only one wizard in a billion miles and she/her can only vast 1st levels spells...kinda like Ebberon".
And to magically measure things is like cantrip level magic...so nearly everyone would have access to it. Though EVEN better a town would only really need one spellcaster with the spell, as they could make spoons, cups, bowls and such of the exact sizes the spell sorts. Take a a bag of dirt, cast the cantrip measure to get a pound, fill a bowl, then just make copies of that bowl. That bowl will hold a pound of dirt.
And for anyone not a super dirt poor person living in the Dalelands working 12 hours a day, a cheap magic item, a cantrip based item of measure, would be available to anyone. It would be less then a 500 gp item. Something any spellcaster could make in a day or so. So...even ONE spellcaster, in ONE city, say Waterdeep, could make...er....300 a year.
Though note I use the 2/3E rules, and mostly the 2E setting(though technically also 3E too)...I like the Realms that has a 24th level wizard/great wyrm dragon shopkeeper that uses Time Stop (the freeze time in a local area version) to freeze thieves. And the zero level shopkeeper that has two Iron Golem shop guards.
So using the more 2E numbers of AT LEAST ten spellcasters in everyplace(though not all arch magi blowing up the moon everyday..more like non combat hedge casters), everywhere should have Items of Measure. Even whole spells that do it too....hummm. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Jan 2023 : 13:41:47
As you say, most non-specialized smiths probably wouldn't need to be specific.... but since you bring it up, I could DEFINITELY see potion brewers / alchemists needing to possibly be exacting with temperatures. While I see the netherese developing such .... I like the idea of gnomes developing their own (because gnomes are to me the most common potion brewers/alchemists) and sharing it with dwarves who brew beers, ales, and strong spirits and halflings who focus on baking. Maybe its referred to dismissively by hypocritical humans as the "low-in-height" scale. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 19 Jan 2023 : 00:01:38
The only place that I have seen actual temps come into play is in spell descriptions and environmental damage/exposure to extreme heat/cold. I did these really in response to Seethyr's original post so that there was something "realmsian" and not just use real world systems. Smiths won't use anything other than "make sure your coals are a bright red before you start to work your metal" or things of that nature. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jan 2023 : 23:39:29
Fahrenheit is about 300 years old. It'll be a neat trick for the efreeti to have brought it over.
I'm not really convinced, though, that there's a need for even a single temperature scale, at least not in common usage. Maybe people that work with high heat would need something, but the common person in the Realms isn't going to need anything more exact than "it sure is nice today!" |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 18 Jan 2023 : 22:19:49
Because of this thread, I have come up with a couple different ways of measuring temperature: Cryokos and Fizans.
The Cryoko scale is basically equal to the real-world Celsius scale and was developed by Yrix Alquinnar, Elementalist Most Pursuant of Netheril. The name of the scale is a combination of the elemental gods Cryonax and Kossuth. This is not something that would be used by the common man but rather by wizards, sages, and the like.
The common way of speaking about temperature is the Fizan scale. This scale is roughly equal to the Fahrenheit scale. This scale was brought the realms when the efreeti first arrived in present day Calimshan. It's origins very likely reside in Zakara and the god Zann. It is traditionally measured by using a very thin, graduated, glass tube and a mixture of pure alcohol (usually ethanol) and plant oils (the best one to use is the oil from an Ardenard plant (also known as Mountain Spears). That will allow it to measure a range from about -100 to +300.
|
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 16 Jan 2023 : 06:45:32
If we are going to discuss measurements, we might as well include types of transportation and their capacities and costs:
Wagon sizes are:
large wagon: 4 ft x 18 ft 8,000 lbs 200 gp (similar to the Conestoga wagons but not with as large a load so it can cross softer ground)
medium wagon: 4 ft x 12 ft 4,000 lbs 100 gp (this was used for the wagon length)
small wagon/cart: 4 ft x 8 ft 2,000 lbs 50gp
hand/push cart: 4 ft x 4 ft 500 lbs. 25gp
Buggies: 2 passengers 750 lbs 75gp
Carriages: 4 to 6 passengers 2,100 lbs 150+gp
Barges:
Standard small barge 14x25: 3,000lbs/3 crew
Standard medium barge 14x30: 3,600lbs/4 crew
Standard large barge 14x35: 4,000lbs/5 crew
Standard barge is 25 to 35 feet and caries up to 4,000 lbs of cargo and costs 1,000 to 1,500 gps.
Hoys (heavy/large barges)
Standard small hoy 20x40: 7,000lbs/6 crew
Standard medium hoy 20x45: 8,000lbs/6 crew
Standard large hoy 20x50: 9,000lbs/7 crew
Large barges (also known as hoys) that are 40 to 50 feet in length and carries up to 9,000 lbs and runs 2,000 to 3,000 gps.
These are the standard sizes for the Chionthar. 20ft is the max width to be able to get past the bridges at Berdusk. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 16 Jan 2023 : 04:10:26
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Taking the linear measurements Ed mentioned, I have calculated out the conversions below. I was able to find the actual lengths for chains and hands. Bowshot was vague, naturally, so I fudged it a bit to fit in better with the chain's length. Thumbwidths and fingerwidths are going to be subjective as Ed mentioned but I included them as an estimated conversion.
Lengths
1 yard = 1 arlshank = 9 hands = 36 thumbwidths = 48 fingerwidths
4 yards = 1 wagon length = 4 arlshanks = 36 hands
22 yards = 1 chain = 22 arlshanks = 198 hands
88 yards = 1 bowshot = 4 chains = 88 arlshanks
220 yards = 1 furlong = 2.5 bowshots = 10 chains = 220 arlshanks
1760 yards (1 mile) = 8 furlongs = 20 bowshots = 80 chains = 1760 arlshanks
Distances
1 day-ride = 24 miles = 192 furlongs
1 day-haul = 12 miles = 96 furlongs
Area
1 chainsquare = 22 yards by 22 yards = 484 sqyds
1 long chainsquare = 22 yards by 220 yards = 1 chain by 1 furlong = 1 acre = 4840 sqyds
Edit: fixed error and typo
Spectacular! If Ed ever gets to writing or being involved in another general FR book, I hope he includes stuff like this. I'd like to see him do other measurements like temperature too and maybe load them all into the same chapter that he does currency/calendar, etc. This is what makes a world live... |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 16 Jan 2023 : 01:47:41
Taking the linear measurements Ed mentioned, I have calculated out the conversions below. I was able to find the actual lengths for chains and hands. Bowshot was vague, naturally, so I fudged it a bit to fit in better with the chain's length. Thumbwidths and fingerwidths are going to be subjective as Ed mentioned but I included them as an estimated conversion.
Lengths
1 yard = 1 arlshank = 3 feet = 9 hands = 36 thumbwidths = 48 fingerwidths
4 yards = 1 wagon length = 4 arlshanks = 12 feet = 36 hands
22 yards = 1 chain = 22 arlshanks = 66 feet = 198 hands
88 yards = 1 bowshot = 4 chains = 88 arlshanks = 264 feet
220 yards = 1 furlong = 2.5 bowshots = 10 chains = 220 arlshanks
1760 yards (1 mile) = 8 furlongs = 20 bowshots = 80 chains = 1760 arlshanks
Distances
1 day-ride = 24 miles = 192 furlongs
1 day-haul = 12 miles = 96 furlongs
Area
1 chainsquare = 22 yards by 22 yards = 484 sqyds
1 long chainsquare = 22 yards by 220 yards = 1 chain by 1 furlong = 1 acre = 4840 sqyds
Edit: fixed error and typo
Edit2: added in feet since it is defined as 3 hands and if you are going to measure stuff by the hand, why would you not use the foot, too. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 15 Jan 2023 : 17:56:01
The thing about time measurement via bells is that it IS possible to "accurately" determine the time down to the quarter hour via sundials and water clocks (both are listed in Aurora's). The problem with sundials is that they don't work at night or on cloudy days. That is probably why a water clock would be used during those times and as a general backup. It is also very likely why Waterdeep constructed a "golemwork clock" in 1445 DR as something more accurate than the other two. It is possible that by the 1490s, other major trade cities would have followed suit and gotten their own golemwork clocks (to replace their sundials and the like).
As a competitive option, I could see something offered by the gnomes that would be similar to the golemwork clock. But, instead of a physical clock, they could have an illusion of the clock face projected up over the city so everyone could see it. They could also have duplicate illusions showing at various locations underground/indoors and/or lights that could slowly flash/change color to replicate the function of a bell ringing if the sound isn't desired or would be impractical.
Edit: added a clarification. |
| Outlaw Pope |
Posted - 12 Jan 2023 : 19:54:05
I love this thread. It's something I hadn't even thought about specifically. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Jan 2023 : 15:57:49
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Arlshanks.
-- George Krashos
An Uthgardt barbarian's THIGH that was roughly the equivalent of a YARD. The average human femur is 18 inches. So, in theory this guy was taller than a hill giant/roughly as tall as a stone giant? Methinks there's a story behind that. Was he even human, or an adopted Uthgardt barbarian? Maybe a giant raised by the Uthgardt who went on to act like Paul Bunyan myths. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 11 Jan 2023 : 07:13:31
Arlshanks.
-- George Krashos |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 10 Jan 2023 : 23:04:54
Maybe hire a baatezu to write a contract in Infernal to remove such ambiguity. After all, they are the masters in finding and using loopholes in contracts. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 19:47:49
In the modern realms, I'd expect a clash too between cultural measurements having occurred in the past century. For instance, I'd bet the dragonborn of Tymanther and the genasi of Akanul brought their own measurement system that they shared on Abeir to this world with them. This measurement system was likely also used by the people of Laerakond. It might be interesting to see how that kind of thing might have affected the regions that border transplanted lands.
For instance, the width of our modern railroads can be related back to the width of a horse's ass.... because that width was based on roman chariots. Well, who would be surprised if the standard of using horses and oxen in Toril might have been mirrored by something entirely different (like some herbivorous dinosaur) in Abeir. That herbivorous dinosaur may have been able to haul more weight, but moved just a little slower. So, they may have used similar measurements (i.e. half a day's haul), but that distance is significantly different. They might have used things like "a wagon full" to relate how much weight they could pull too.... but their "wagons" would have another name and be built either larger or smaller, etc.... because maybe they only use one beast of burden instead of two, etc...
So, to extrapolate this a little further, let's pretend for a minute that the "swap" happens. People use magic in order to start translating the language between cultures. They figure out that X translates as wagon. That gets noted in a book. Later, some merchant is going over some trade agreement to deliver "a wagon full" of melons. It gets written in both common and Abeiran dragonborn (because both consider their language as the proper one). That "wagon full" in vayemniri dragonborn is twice the amount of "a wagon full" in common, but since the contract is now in both languages, each side has a valid reason to complain when the goods are delivered. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 19:01:42
The Volo guides have some recipes with Realms cooking measurements. I remember the 'blade' the amount of a substance you can cover a blade with(like say sugar). I think a 'finger' and 'thumb' were used for length. The handful for things too. Check out the books. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 17:37:35
One thing to consider are gnomes and dwarves. Given their skill in engineering, they very likely have a standardized set of measurements that are used race wide and probably contributes to their success as engineers. It is entirely possible that their measurements are divinely set (i.e. they come from the church of the relevant god). |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 16:47:00
This is all extremely helpful info. Thank you. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Jan 2023 : 16:15:29
Some of these are repeated in Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms, but he's also answered some questions about units of measure, over the years.
quote:
Time in the Realms is NEVER measured in “hours” or “minutes.” Short-term waits can be measured in “breaths” but in cities, temples, and monasteries, the equivalent of hours are so many “bells” (yes, a bell is rung) or “candles” (which do visibly burn down) from or to a measurable event, such as dawn/daybreak, dusk/nightfall, or noon (in the Realms, noon is “highsun”). Example: The tumult began three bells before nightfall.
“Midnight” is permissible usage, and “deepnight” is its ‘more Realmsian’ synonym.
When timing is important, Realms writers should work a reference to how many bells are struck in a day (“It was the task of Brother Blackhands to strike half of the twelve bells between dusk and dawn, with Sister Elphrana tolling the bells between—and another pair of the Devout handled the twelve bells of the bright hours.”) into the narrative to make it clear that a “bell” IS “an hour.”
In Tashluta and the Tashalar, Tharsult, and in some ports nearby, a “bell” (an hour) is called a “darmeth,” with the plural (hours) being “darmar.” As in: “It’ll be at least three darmar before he gets back.” or: “But that could take DARMAR, hrast it!” This usage seems to be spreading south.
In like manner, days in the realms are never referred to as “Monday,” “Tuesday,” or any real-world ‘weekday’ name. Most folk in the Realms refer to a particular day as thus far from “the first of Mirtul” or “the last of Eleint” or one of the annual festival days, or if they must be precise, will say something like “the first day of the first tenday of Ches.” If they were writing this date or speaking of it formally, it would become “1st Ches.”
Where we would say “a moment or two,” most humans in the Realms say “a breath or two”—and what we would call a minute is “a goodly breath or three.”
Dwarves tend to call the same span of time (actually, anything up to about three minutes) “but a little while,” whereas a halfling would call the same span of time “a long song.” To a halfling, a minute is “a tune,” and 10 minutes is “three long songs.” Most halflings tend to speak of longer time periods, within a day, in terms of how much the sun has progressed.
quote:
Joran, Ed says that most Crown land in Cormyr is given as a royal gift. The exceptions are urban properties no noble would want (i.e. a rotting warehouse near the docks) and places that the Crown wants settled (on the borders of the realm, i.e. along the border with Sembia, around the Bridge of Fallen Men, and [ahem] near the Stonelands, specifically from the overland trade-roads north to the Stonelands, to more heavily settle [and therefore secure] the lands north and northeast of the Hullack Forest as part of Cormyr). There is no "set price;" it varies by who's trying to buy, how much they're trying to buy, what the quality of that land is, for farming, and the location of the land (urban, close to good roads, close to large settlements versus remote) - - and of course the price has increased over time.
BTW, the "acre" is a term still slowly creeping into the Realms, thanks to Elminster ("hectare" is still unknown), and most properties in Cormyr would officially be measured in "chains" or "chainsquares" (the surveyor's chain being a linear measurement, and the "chainsquare" being a square area measurement consisting of one chain per side; chains rather than rigid "ruler"-like measures are used so as to be able to handle irregular shapes).
I'll try to get back to you with some typical prices.
quote:
As for your measurements questions: many different local systems are in use (though “miles” is NOT one of them!), but common trading and therefore widespread measurements are: fingerwidths; “hands” (handwidths, of a mature human male); “arlshanks” (formerly the length of the Uthgardt barbarian hero Ar’s thigh, now a standard measurement exactly equivalent to the real-world “yard” or three feet; Ar was a big guy; a Waterdeep merchant made flat metal plate replicas [stamped with his complicated proof-mark] of Ar’s thighbone after the hero’s death, and these now see wide use up and down the Sword coast and east along the Heartlands trade routes); wagonlengths; bowshots; halfday-rides, day-rides, tenday rides and halfday-hauls (“haul” refers to one horse and laden wagon, as opposed to “ride,” which is one rider on a fast riding-horse), day-hauls, and tenday-hauls.
As you can see, any of these measurements except the arlshank can vary widely, and be the source of much disagreement (“YOUR fat finger, merchant? Or mine?”), and new “better” measurements are constantly being introduced. Nothing thus far has widely and firmly caught on.
|
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 08 Jan 2023 : 16:02:46
I haven't seen any so I was using old imperial measures like furlong, stone, rod, etc. It is a nice way to add flavor, but it can cause some confusion with players since they are not in common use anymore. The wiki entry is a nice place to start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_units
|
|
|
