| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| prototype00 |
Posted - 07 Oct 2022 : 02:56:56
So we all know of Shar’s dastardly plans with the Shadow Weave, one thousand years of darkness, Mwa ha ha! And all that….
But, if you think of it from an operational continuity point of view, Mystra is one of the most death-prone goddesses in the Realms and everytime she kicks the bucket there is an Apocalypse that affects even the regions that don’t worship her like Zakhara and Shou.
Now Zakhara and Shou are not two bit border kingdoms, they are massive empires with spelljamming fleets and the patronage of godlike beings older (like all four of the current Noble Genie Lord rulers of the elemental planes) than the previous incarnation of Mystra.
Would it be possible, in lore, to have a back up magic system that kicks in when that crazy western goddess decides to get herself offed next? |
| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 03 Jun 2023 : 01:02:59
Since this thread has been resurrected:
It's worth noting that Shar's Shadow Weave was built as a connected structure to Mystra's Weave rather than replacing it in any region.
To (attempt to) form a regional Weave in Realmspace would potentially produce disruption to Mystra's Weave local to the area, which would earn the ire of the goddess and a number of heroes descending upon the potential disaster.
In 3e Player's Guide to Faerûn, psionics is described as creatures forming personal Weaves with which they craft magic and gather/channel magical energy. As such, if seeking a backup to the Weave, items or techniques that produce personal Weaves would potentially be the safer route to take.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 May 2023 : 21:57:02
I've always likened the Weave to a power grid, myself. You can use batteries, or a generator, or a carefully targeted bolt of lightning to power your lamp -- but it's so much easier just to plug it into the wall outlet. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 May 2023 : 16:58:36
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by prototype00
from an operational continuity point of view, Mystra is one of the most death-prone goddesses in the Realms
And from another point of view…
Magic is Change.
Mystra is Magic.
Death is Change.
However, Mystra is NOT Death.
To her, Death is merely another Change, which she always supports.
That's as simple as I can boil it down to for FR philosophy. YMMV
Ah, I understand. Mystra is Windows, only without the option to opt out of the upgrade.
Yep, that's a comparison I've always liked to use... that's the weave is like an operating system. Spells are "apps" and these "apps" may change over time. One thing I put forth a while ago is that the other gods are often putting forth ideas for "app changes" to make certain spells act certain ways... so various gods of necromancy may be changing necromantic spells, gods like Talos might be putting forth evocation spell changes, etc... and then Mystra and her servitors serve as approvers to keep things balanced so that gods of necromancy
don't just overblow the power levels of their "apps". This is why magic changes between editions. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 May 2023 : 16:39:57
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
So for some Random Obscure Lore:
In the Shadow of the Avatar novels, the elven spellcasters were not effected by the wild magic during the Time of Troubles....and the question is raised if maybe that elven magic uses an older/other/natural elven Weave.
Also, you can add Psionics as "another" type of "magic", that does not use the weave.
Also, somewhere, the idea is that Rune magic, used by giants, dwarves, some elves uses the "primal" natural magic of Toril, not the Weave.
Just a note on psionics and the weave... an interesting spin that could be placed on this is that in 2nd edition they are separate. Later, things that block magic also block psionics. We also have some note that Mystra was "waking Auppenser from a long sleep" or something of that sort in realmslore. Maybe in "waking" him, she also got her claws into psionics.
I personally would have it that the item based magics taught by the maztican gods (plumaweaving and hishnashaping) are also not "Mystra based", and thus these magics work fine on Abeir. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 24 May 2023 : 15:06:39
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Ah, I understand. Mystra is Windows, only without the option to opt out of the upgrade.
Karsus's Avatar may have switched the Weave to UNIX if it succeeded longer than a moment. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 10 Oct 2022 : 02:31:15
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by prototype00
from an operational continuity point of view, Mystra is one of the most death-prone goddesses in the Realms
And from another point of view…
Magic is Change.
Mystra is Magic.
Death is Change.
However, Mystra is NOT Death.
To her, Death is merely another Change, which she always supports.
That's as simple as I can boil it down to for FR philosophy. YMMV
Ah, I understand. Mystra is Windows, only without the option to opt out of the upgrade. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 10 Oct 2022 : 00:47:29
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I would be very hesitant to ascribe the creation of basic, found in the PH, spells to the Netherese.
-- George Krashos
For more Obscure Lore, they had magic missile back during the Dragon Empires that once ruled the world, and that was like thousands of years before Nether. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 09 Oct 2022 : 21:10:16
quote:
Originally posted by prototype00
from an operational continuity point of view, Mystra is one of the most death-prone goddesses in the Realms
And from another point of view…
Magic is Change.
Mystra is Magic.
Death is Change.
However, Mystra is NOT Death.
To her, Death is merely another Change, which she always supports.
That's as simple as I can boil it down to for FR philosophy. YMMV |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 09 Oct 2022 : 10:38:10
quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
In the Shadow of the Avatar novels, the elven spellcasters were not effected by the wild magic during the Time of Troubles....and the question is raised if maybe that elven magic uses an older/other/natural elven Weave.
I was confused by that, since among the spells used by the elves in that scene was magic missile, a Netherese spell. My guess is that it's such a good spell that it was reinvented by the elves, like rewriting a known algorithm in a different coding language. Considering the attitudes of Cormanthyr elves towards humans, it makes sense that they wouldn't want to rely on something as vulgar as a human creation, and they would prefer the far more elegant (even though entirely identical) elven version. Later, more tolerant elves would still rely on the version taught by their culture even if they respect humans talent for magic.
I would be very hesitant to ascribe the creation of basic, found in the PH, spells to the Netherese. Notoriously arrogant about their magic use and prowess, it's almost certain that they thought they created these spells, or even more likely that the arcanist who perfected their casting and taught others the spell was declared its creator. They learned the rudiments of the Art from the elves of Eaerlann and a spell as simple as magic missile would have easily been something that all spellcasting cultures would have created or honed independent of the other.
-- George Krashos |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 09 Oct 2022 : 09:49:15
quote:
Originally posted by prototype00
Oh, that's an interesting read of the inherent possibilities. So basically the more one adheres to the "Mystran" mode of magic (the system promulgated by Netheril and to a greater or lesser extent, the Elves), the more susceptible you are to the whims of her continued existence.
Mostly it's just that the elves can dig deeper into subtler magic forces (always in High Magic as such, but it also influences the general tradition, hence dances with starlight, etc - they make it work). But a big downside of their advantages is that their work relies on assumptions about what goes on around. Which increased the risks once things became more chaotic in long term. Why the elves reacted so wildly on any large-scale damage to the forests even back when elf-friendly living land was abundant, and they could feasibly fix it? Because it made their greatest assets explode in magical fallout.
Thus, the Dracorage Mythal in well-contained environment maintained by itself surrounded by frozen terrain not visited or affected by anyone could be perfectly stable for millennia. But a mythal in some forest that was burned is going to be less stable than an average human ward. If a single Netherese arcanist cast Mavin's Worldweave at a wrong place, or just accidentally parked his enclave too close (considering what an active mythallar does even to the living elves), perhaps Dracorage Mythal could curdle horribly too... but no one did.
Likewise, for the drow any sunlit area was like a wild magic zone until the fix.
Conversely, the genies, aside of their understanding of elements and interaction thereof, must have very different standards for stability. It would be silly if the djinn and efreet called off fights due to wild magic all the time. What's more, they routinely use magic within and across elemental pockets, since those are among the most useful features on the Inner Planes.
In the end, "There's a big ball of magma floating by? Does not happen every day, but nothing really special" and "Too many trees got uprooted? Oh no, conditions changed too far!" are just not in the same ballpark, nor even in adjacent ballparks. 
quote:
Thus the magic of those regions should be directly keyed to the elemental planes and not Mystra's weave and the spellcasters of Zakhara (either the Elemental Sorcerors or the Sha'irs) already accustomed to getting their power from such a source, could continue their activities.
An even simpler solution is: after any Weave upheaval elemental based magic is going to stabilize and go back to business-as-usual a lot sooner and more fully than anything else, because it's biased toward using forces that will not be so deeply upset. Stone is still stone, air is still air, and so on.
quote:
It's been brought to my attention that stable magical effects are possible even when Mystra's weave is out of whack. One of them being Saharel's Spellgard, perhaps such is the key to having a failsafe?
We know Mystra stashed away many semi-autonomous "anchors", and presumably so did Mystril before her. While Chosen are the most obvious part of this, there are others (see Araumycos, for one).
Seeing how Saharel kept her old lair, and at least one Chosen repeatedly visited it, there may well be an important place.
quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
I was confused by that, since among the spells used by the elves in that scene was magic missile, a Netherese spell. My guess is that it's such a good spell that it was reinvented by the elves, like rewriting a known algorithm in a different coding language. Considering the attitudes of Cormanthyr elves towards humans, it makes sense that they wouldn't want to rely on something as vulgar as a human creation, and they would prefer the far more elegant (even though entirely identical) elven version.
It's not the most complicated spell, and perhaps was reinvented a lot with minor variations, indeed.
But also, it may not be the same after translation between very different traditions.
Consider that Old Empires use arcane magic script that isn't even compatible with "common" version of read magic spell. But once a wizard of a less exotic tradition used read Southern magic, the rest is as usual. Elven spells aren't too far from "generic" arcane for read magic. Or vice versa.
An elf translating a spell from some human tradition could rebuild it in more familiar Elven/Draconic keyword dictionary and use the Elven tradition of spell construction. Which was influenced by High Magic during most of its existence. So the result would resemble a native elven spell anyway. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 08 Oct 2022 : 16:11:26
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder The only mortal-made magic power source were mythallars, and they were plugged into Weave. And even that is not possible to make in Realmspace anymore, even if one of the very few who knows how cooperated.
Also, it's an aberration. Shutdowns are once-per-millennium or so. And on the scale larger than occasional flying carpet or spelljamming vessel dropping, they are mostly dangerous when someone relies on uninterrupted magic while tempting fate too much ("there's only a wall of force between us and the sea of gray oozes! Add a stone wall? Nah..."). Or if some elves leave a surprise for future generations. But even then, note that Karsus Folly did not cause Trio Nefarious, fey-ri and who-knows-what-else all over the continent to erupt from their prisons immediately.
This is not correct. Ed Greenwood has always said that the Weave is just the easiest way to access magic (that Ed describes as the natural energies of the world), but there are various magic practices that don't rely on the Weave to cast spells, like table magic, pluma magic, blood magic, etc. Likewise, there are even creatures that don't use the Weave to cast spells, because they are naturally attuned to magic, such as dragons.
So, it's only an aberration for the Church of Mystra, but not for other creatures and practices.
quote:
Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms, page 189
It is a sometimes fatal mistake to think that all arcane magic is “of the Weave” (or, like the Shadow Weave, built around the Weave). The Realms is and has long been a crossroads for planar travelers, many of whom bring other ways of doing magic to Faerûn.
Ancient cultures of the Realms have known plume magic, table magic, truename magic, and wild magic (as something wizards strove to master, or at least steer), to name just a few.
The Weave has failed in the past, and much of the work of the Chosen of Mystra is committed to continuously repairing it and guarding against perils to it, preventing the spread of any damage. Spellcasters have found other ways to work magic—and still do. Magic evolves and progresses through such innovations, down the ages.
Magic in the Realms should never be something stripped of mystery, something that everyone can understand and “know all” about. Like the wider Realms, there should always be room for the new to slip in, to challenge—and perhaps to astonish.
|
| Athreeren |
Posted - 08 Oct 2022 : 09:59:15
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
In the Shadow of the Avatar novels, the elven spellcasters were not effected by the wild magic during the Time of Troubles....and the question is raised if maybe that elven magic uses an older/other/natural elven Weave.
I was confused by that, since among the spells used by the elves in that scene was magic missile, a Netherese spell. My guess is that it's such a good spell that it was reinvented by the elves, like rewriting a known algorithm in a different coding language. Considering the attitudes of Cormanthyr elves towards humans, it makes sense that they wouldn't want to rely on something as vulgar as a human creation, and they would prefer the far more elegant (even though entirely identical) elven version. Later, more tolerant elves would still rely on the version taught by their culture even if they respect humans talent for magic. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Oct 2022 : 09:46:59
quote:
The only mortal-made magic power source were mythallars, and they were plugged into Weave. And even that is not possible to make in Realmspace anymore, even if one of the very few who knows how cooperated.
Yes, mythallars somehow siphoned magic from the Weave and converted it into a pseudo-magic field projected across a large radius.
But don't forget about mythals. Each apparently a self-contained self-regenerating magical field. Many of these continued to operate (largely) unaffected during and after the catastrophic Weave failures caused by various Mystra interregna. Some of these - along with other elven artifacts like Moonblades - actually continued to grow in potency during and after these Mystra-failure events.
Lich phylacteries might also be similar constructs, though far more limited in scope.
And Szassy's defunct Dread Rings might also be similar constructs, fashioned on an epic scale but intended to serve a much narrower purpose. |
| prototype00 |
Posted - 08 Oct 2022 : 04:39:01
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by prototype00
Would it be possible, in lore, to have a back up magic system that kicks in when that crazy western goddess decides to get herself offed next?
The only mortal-made magic power source were mythallars, and they were plugged into Weave. And even that is not possible to make in Realmspace anymore, even if one of the very few who knows how cooperated.
Also, it's an aberration. Shutdowns are once-per-millennium or so. And on the scale larger than occasional flying carpet or spelljamming vessel dropping, they are mostly dangerous when someone relies on uninterrupted magic while tempting fate too much ("there's only a wall of force between us and the sea of gray oozes! Add a stone wall? Nah..."). Or if some elves leave a surprise for future generations. But even then, note that Karsus Folly did not cause Trio Nefarious, fey-ri and who-knows-what-else all over the continent to erupt from their prisons immediately.
quote:
Now Zakhara and Shou are not two bit border kingdoms, they are massive empires with spelljamming fleets and the patronage of godlike beings older (like all four of the current Noble Genie Lord rulers of the elemental planes) than the previous incarnation of Mystra.
Now, this raises an obscure yet interesting related issue. The Weave shuts down all over the sphere... but are the dangers quite the same?
Well, most places simply don't have enough of magic to rely on it. But other than this...
The elemental magic sometimes is treated differently from generic arcane magic - e.g. the phaerimm supposedly cannot detect elemental spells as easily. These fit into natural magic processes better, or something.
Also, things like "some wizard fight ended in a minor spellstorm, and that left behind a wild magic area, for centuries" occur in North, but curiously don't seem to happen in Zakhara, ever. Maybe it's a result of annoyed genies doing a quiet, competent clean-up now and then... or maybe this never happens to begin with, because their spells are much less susceptible to collapse into unstable mess. The same applies for Kara-Tur.
It's feasible that in the long term elemental magic (and perhaps some derivatives) is inherently more resilient to distortions and anomalous conditions than arcane magic on average.
And likely resistant to corruption - more so than mythals, even if otherwise not much more long-living than other arcane wards/enchantments. It would eventually flicker and expire, but not turn into something weird. I mean, runes on the stones are worn out and it's hard to detect they ever were magical, while a mythal hums on. Sure. But a mob of extraplanars runs over a place? A mythal corrodes dangerously within hours to days, genie work... does not even shudder.
So, what happened whenever the Weave was down due to an emergency or a little scheduled maintenance, or was overloaded? Perhaps the genie-style Zakharan (and some Calimshan) magic - as well as alchemy-based Wu jen magic - just restarted and continued to work as usual, while Netherese-crafted and some of elf-crafted works did not take it so well and gone haywire or suffered more wear than from passing time.
Oh, that's an interesting read of the inherent possibilities. So basically the more one adheres to the "Mystran" mode of magic (the system promulgated by Netheril and to a greater or lesser extent, the Elves), the more susceptible you are to the whims of her continued existence.
Whereas for genies (who to note, are extraplanar beings, so their power inherently for the most part does not originate from Mystra except for possibly their forays onto Prime Material Toril) their work is pitched to their own wavelength (or the elemental spheres of magic) so to speak?
My original pondering for the "backup plan" for Zakhara was to borrow an idea from Eberron and make it so that if Mystra's weave failed for any reason, large regions of Zakhara would, in a controlled fashion, become Manifest Zones (i.e. almost 100% co-terminous with another plane) of the Elemental fiefs belonging to the Genie Lords (in return for massive concessions on a regular basis in these regions for said Genie Lords of course). Thus the magic of those regions should be directly keyed to the elemental planes and not Mystra's weave and the spellcasters of Zakhara (either the Elemental Sorcerors or the Sha'irs) already accustomed to getting their power from such a source, could continue their activities.
It's been brought to my attention that stable magical effects are possible even when Mystra's weave is out of whack. One of them being Saharel's Spellgard, perhaps such is the key to having a failsafe? |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 08 Oct 2022 : 04:14:15
So for some Random Obscure Lore:
In the Shadow of the Avatar novels, the elven spellcasters were not effected by the wild magic during the Time of Troubles....and the question is raised if maybe that elven magic uses an older/other/natural elven Weave.
Also, you can add Psionics as "another" type of "magic", that does not use the weave.
Also, somewhere, the idea is that Rune magic, used by giants, dwarves, some elves uses the "primal" natural magic of Toril, not the Weave. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 08 Oct 2022 : 03:18:35
quote:
Originally posted by prototype00
Would it be possible, in lore, to have a back up magic system that kicks in when that crazy western goddess decides to get herself offed next?
The only mortal-made magic power source were mythallars, and they were plugged into Weave. And even that is not possible to make in Realmspace anymore, even if one of the very few who knows how cooperated.
Also, it's an aberration. Shutdowns are once-per-millennium or so. And on the scale larger than occasional flying carpet or spelljamming vessel dropping, they are mostly dangerous when someone relies on uninterrupted magic while tempting fate too much ("there's only a wall of force between us and the sea of gray oozes! Add a stone wall? Nah..."). Or if some elves leave a surprise for future generations. But even then, note that Karsus Folly did not cause Trio Nefarious, fey-ri and who-knows-what-else all over the continent to erupt from their prisons immediately.
quote:
Now Zakhara and Shou are not two bit border kingdoms, they are massive empires with spelljamming fleets and the patronage of godlike beings older (like all four of the current Noble Genie Lord rulers of the elemental planes) than the previous incarnation of Mystra.
Now, this raises an obscure yet interesting related issue. The Weave shuts down all over the sphere... but are the dangers quite the same?
Well, most places simply don't have enough of magic to rely on it. But other than this...
The elemental magic sometimes is treated differently from generic arcane magic - e.g. the phaerimm supposedly cannot detect elemental spells as easily. These fit into natural magic processes better, or something.
Also, things like "some wizard fight ended in a minor spellstorm, and that left behind a wild magic area, for centuries" occur in North, but curiously don't seem to happen in Zakhara, ever. Maybe it's a result of annoyed genies doing a quiet, competent clean-up now and then... or maybe this never happens to begin with, because their spells are much less susceptible to collapse into unstable mess. The same applies for Kara-Tur.
It's feasible that in the long term elemental magic (and perhaps some derivatives) is inherently more resilient to distortions and anomalous conditions than arcane magic on average.
And likely resistant to corruption - more so than mythals, even if otherwise not much more long-living than other arcane wards/enchantments. It would eventually flicker and expire, but not turn into something weird. I mean, runes on the stones are worn out and it's hard to detect they ever were magical, while a mythal hums on. Sure. But a mob of extraplanars runs over a place? A mythal corrodes dangerously within hours to days, genie work... does not even shudder.
So, what happened whenever the Weave was down due to an emergency or a little scheduled maintenance, or was overloaded? Perhaps the genie-style Zakharan (and some Calimshan) magic - as well as alchemy-based Wu jen magic - just restarted and continued to work as usual, while Netherese-crafted and some of elf-crafted works did not take it so well and gone haywire or suffered more wear than from passing time. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Oct 2022 : 11:13:15
quote:
Originally posted by prototype00
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
She covers all of Realmspace. Anyone setting up a back-up system either has to work very carefully and subtly to not be noticed (like Shar did, taking centuries to create the Shadow Weave), or they've got to have her buy-in.
Related query, was it ever answered if Warlocks also operate via the Weave? Or is the power of their patron independent?
I'd treat them like clerics: the patron's power comes from the Weave. |
| prototype00 |
Posted - 07 Oct 2022 : 05:49:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
She covers all of Realmspace. Anyone setting up a back-up system either has to work very carefully and subtly to not be noticed (like Shar did, taking centuries to create the Shadow Weave), or they've got to have her buy-in.
Related query, was it ever answered if Warlocks also operate via the Weave? Or is the power of their patron independent? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Oct 2022 : 05:40:38
She covers all of Realmspace. Anyone setting up a back-up system either has to work very carefully and subtly to not be noticed (like Shar did, taking centuries to create the Shadow Weave), or they've got to have her buy-in. |
| prototype00 |
Posted - 07 Oct 2022 : 05:27:45
That would be an interesting Realms Novel, the travails of the Highest Level Sha’irs (Probably Genie Warlocks with access to Wish) in Zakhara in fending off the diplomatic and magical assaults of Mystra’s chosen and their allies when setting up the… let’s call it “The Loregiver’s Array”. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 07 Oct 2022 : 05:12:27
I think it is possible. I have even thought of a similar idea (mythal-like mini-weaves), but let's be honest: Mystra won't be happy with the idea, and she will try to assimilate that power into her Weave. If I've learned something about the Realms is that Mystra is not the goodie god her faith try to convince us she is.
So, while possible, the would be Weave-builders will have to deal with Mystra and her Church and her Chosen trying to absorb or sabotage their efforts. |
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