| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| prototype00 |
Posted - 18 Jul 2022 : 08:16:58
So in 3.5 FR there was the Risen Sun Heresy which posited that Lathander was becoming Aumunator (possibly as part of some kind of solar cycle). Then in 4e this turned out to be true and Aumnunator returned, wiser perhaps for his youth.
Now in 5e, Aumunator and Lathander are hanging around, how does that work? Is one an aspect of the other? Or are they separate entities? How do their clergy get a long?
Oh, with regards to the Dawn Cataclysm, I’m guessing that was Aumunator trying to make “all things right” and blasting himself into Lathander, is that the right understanding?
Thanks so much for the elucidation, sages of Realmslore! |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 09 Nov 2022 : 22:09:48
I take it A’tar was only ever a bastardization of Amaunator’s name and never a Bedine specific avatar or offshoot? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Nov 2022 : 21:54:22
You all got it wrong Amaunator was Ra's attempt to expand beyond Mulhorand by taking the power of a spiteful sun goddess named At'ar. Amon-Ra-at-ar became Amaunator. Then Lathander, in fear of the growing power of the Mulhorandi and Unther pantheons, worked out a deal with Kozah to bring some orcs to Thay, and Kozah helped them "summon" avatars of Gruumsh (it would be better to say they BECAME avatars of Gruumsh and other orc deities, much like the avatars in the ToT). They saw to it that both Ra and Utu, both sun gods, died. Lathander then began granting spells in the name of Amaunator. It's rumored that Set, Nergal, and possibly even Assuran or Gilgeam were involved with this deicide as well, and that Horus-Re was only allowed to subsume the portfolios lest Lathander fully reveal his hand in matters and be reviled. It's said that Ishtar fled Unther to become Eldath because basically her fellow gods were all plotting against one another and that Ramman was imported in because he may have also been involved. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 09 Nov 2022 : 21:00:44
Zehir was a cover for Set, so he's sort of gone. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 09 Nov 2022 : 18:42:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I would recommend the lore behind godly origins and endings from the unreliable narrator perspective. Mortals don't and can't know the full truth on these matters.
CorrelonsDevout also mentioned the 4e decision to simplify the pantheon. I would add WoTC shoehorned in Asmodeus and Zehir into the 4e Faerunian pantheon. So much for trying to reduce and simplify the pantheon. Neither had any business being FR gods when Points of Light was doing fine as the default settings for 4e.
And the guy that fell out of the sky in Vaasa.
Didn't they also shoehorn in the Raven Queen, at the same time?
I forgot about Telos. Yes, RQ also got shoehorned into FR. Excellent for Points of Light setting. Not so excellent for FR where we already have Kelemvor. Not sure if Jergal returned in 5ed. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Nov 2022 : 18:29:55
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I would recommend the lore behind godly origins and endings from the unreliable narrator perspective. Mortals don't and can't know the full truth on these matters.
CorrelonsDevout also mentioned the 4e decision to simplify the pantheon. I would add WoTC shoehorned in Asmodeus and Zehir into the 4e Faerunian pantheon. So much for trying to reduce and simplify the pantheon. Neither had any business being FR gods when Points of Light was doing fine as the default settings for 4e.
And the guy that fell out of the sky in Vaasa.
Didn't they also shoehorn in the Raven Queen, at the same time? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Nov 2022 : 18:29:50
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I would recommend the lore behind godly origins and endings from the unreliable narrator perspective. Mortals don't and can't know the full truth on these matters.
CorrelonsDevout also mentioned the 4e decision to simplify the pantheon. I would add WoTC shoehorned in Asmodeus and Zehir into the 4e Faerunian pantheon. So much for trying to reduce and simplify the pantheon. Neither had any business being FR gods when Points of Light was doing fine as the default settings for 4e.
And the guy that fell out of the sky in Vaasa.
Didn't they also shoehorn in the Raven Queen, at the same time? |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 09 Nov 2022 : 16:47:57
I would recommend the lore behind godly origins and endings from the unreliable narrator perspective. Mortals don't and can't know the full truth on these matters.
CorrelonsDevout also mentioned the 4e decision to simplify the pantheon. I would add WoTC shoehorned in Asmodeus and Zehir into the 4e Faerunian pantheon. So much for trying to reduce and simplify the pantheon. Neither had any business being FR gods when Points of Light was doing fine as the default settings for 4e. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 08 Nov 2022 : 19:29:36
There was the Deliverence (which is the mentioned heresy) in which Lathander would become Amaunataur. In 4e, several gods became aspects of each other (I think a big reason for this was WotC attempt to reduce the pantheon). In 5e, most (with a few exceptions) of the deities are back in action, and Amaunataur and Lathander are separate entities, both dealing with different parts of dawn/morning. Because iirc, Ao decreed that gods can no longer fight over portfolios, several gods now "share" aspects of the same thing. This isn't entirely new, as there have long been "mini pantheons" within the Realms (Azuth and Mystra b9th being gods of Magic, for example). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Nov 2022 : 01:11:53
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sure, Lathander has dawn -- but dawn is a big deal, as it's the coming of daylight, the start of a new day. The middle of the day is not a big deal. And while dusk is more significant than noon, because it represents the fading of the day, the falling of light -- it's not as significant as night itself, nor as significant as dawn. I can see dusk having some import, but more as a herald of night than anything else.
I would suspect that Myrkul holding the Dusk portfolio was more about "hey, this is unclaimed, and I can connect it to dying, so I'll take it!" than anything else.
Lathander is more than being about dawn, anyway; he's about youth and beginnings and creativity.
Myrkul is a good fit for the descriptor in many ways. And Tymora-Beshaba vs Lathander-Myrkul presents some nice symmetries, they're opposed in symbolism, alignments, methods, and objectives. So I defer to the wise lore of esteemed master Krashos. In terms of canon answers.
But Myrkul remains an imperfect and inappropriate choice in my mind. He just doesn't seem like a good fit, his history and activities have little or nothing to do with the sun (in any phase). He doesn't seem to represent the final moments of solar ascension - the majestic power and beauty of last light, the calm or frantic final fading days of life. He seems to strongly represent the darkness, the death which follows. Beshaba consorts with many evil powers but invariably seeks to thwart her sister, Tymora - she doesn't pursue (or ally with) other agendas unless they bring misfortune. While Myrkul is intimately allied with certain evil powers who ignore cycles of day and night, he's been caught working all sorts of evils for no apparent gain other than the general dominance of evil, death, and suffering for its own ends. He seems entirely disinterested in specifically thwarting his brother, Lathander.
He might have taken the portfolio and adapted it towards his own corrupted needs. Very similar to Cyric in that sort of behaviour.
This still suggests some sort of significant Myrkul vs Amaunator (and Myrkul vs Lathander) conflict which we've never been given. Myrkul's been a very busy fellow but he never seemed to campaign against the deities of daylight. Amaunator and Lathander have in turn basically dedicated no special attentions towards Myrkul, treating him and his clergy the same as any other generically evil beings which much be challenged or destroyed. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Nov 2022 : 14:23:39
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
If Lathander (sunrise) is one aspect of Amaunator (sun) then perhaps there should be another aspect (sunset) as well?
This is part of why I've never like that Amaunator-Lathander-Myrkul thing: I don't see why there's a need for deities of specific times of the day.
Sure, Lathander has dawn -- but dawn is a big deal, as it's the coming of daylight, the start of a new day. The middle of the day is not a big deal. And while dusk is more significant than noon, because it represents the fading of the day, the falling of light -- it's not as significant as night itself, nor as significant as dawn. I can see dusk having some import, but more as a herald of night than anything else.
I would suspect that Myrkul holding the Dusk portfolio was more about "hey, this is unclaimed, and I can connect it to dying, so I'll take it!" than anything else.
Lathander is more than being about dawn, anyway; he's about youth and beginnings and creativity.
I think Amaunator would be more important as a sun deity, in general, covering the entire day. And his law angle would be hugely important to earlier societies. But I think the worship of both would naturally fade, after a time, even if the civilization where he was most strongly worshipped remained.
This is also part of why I think Lathander was originally a servant of Amaunator: because law and the sun are hugely important to earlier societies, but once they start filling out their pantheons more completely, those things take a back seat to other concepts.
Lathander serving Amaunator makes a connection between the two and sets up the former to become an heir to the latter. Having Lathander serve as a non-deity covers him being a younger power. But we have to have some pretty significant connection there for Lathander to have been able to start the Dawn Cataclysm, so Lathander would have had to have been a Chosen, or a proxy, or at the very least the high priest of the faith. But the last position implies seniority, which oft comes with age -- and a high priest, even a Chosen, wouldn't be in as strong a position to so something like that, compared to a proxy. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 05 Nov 2022 : 12:20:13
Tyche (luck) became Tymora (good luck) and Beshaba (bad luck), opposing aspects with separated components from Tyche's grander portfolio.
If Lathander (sunrise) is one aspect of Amaunator (sun) then perhaps there should be another aspect (sunset) as well?
A god of calmness, acceptance, tranquility, the ending of journeys, the completion of cycles? Sunset is the time before twilight and darkness, a time when shadows grow larger and deeper, the last moment of glory before Selune and her stars can seize the sky away. As fierce and captivating as the sunrise, perhaps even more magnificent since it is not too blindingly radiant to behold. The last moment of safety before vampires and other dark terrors awaken. The final moment a lycanthrope can retain human sanity. The final mark cast upon a sundial.
Surely the beauty, timing, and symbolism of the setting sun must have importance in many magics and rituals. No less important than the rising dawn.
It's apparent that such an aspect does not exist. Why not? Is the sunset unimportant, unworthy of worship, an aspect which never had any divine power anyhow? Or did some other deity claim the portfolio? Perhaps another deity destroyed or corrupted it? Or is it still unclaimed and available for the taking?
Myrkul doesn't seem to quite fit the descriptor for me. He represents too many other things which are unrelated to the sun. And he has a rather questionable past, doesn't seem like a very glowing and radiant sort of guy (assuming you ignore the evil red glowing eyes and hands, of course.)
Although I suppose he may have claimed the portfolio. This does suggest that he was somehow involved in diminishing or destroying Amaunator - the portfolio would probably not be freely given, it would be taken through some violence or treachery. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Nov 2022 : 04:46:56
I've never liked the idea of Amaunator and Lathander being the same; so I regard the tripartite thing as a heresy.
I personally think Lathander was originally a servant of Amaunator, before becoming a deity. The main reason I think this is because some information from Ed pushes the Dawn Cataclysm way back in Realms history. We know that Lathander basically started it, but we also have multiple descriptions of him being a young deity. Thus, I conclude that Lathander was some sort of servant of Amaunator -- maybe a paladin, maybe a proxy -- when he started a crusade against evil that became the Dawn Cataclysm.
Later, after Amaunator fell, Lathander assumed his master's lost divinity.
|
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 05 Nov 2022 : 02:33:37
The devs at WotC have kept details about Amaunator, Lathander, and the Dawn Cataclysm very, very vague when it comes to how they relate to each other. I had to bridge a large number of gaps when I was writing a pamphlet for Amaunator and Lathander for my DMsGuild channel.
Here's the basic rundown of my take, which combines the lore from different editions, with A LOT of creative license.
1. Amaunator and Lathander started out separate.
2. Amaunator was absorbed into Lathander's body during the Dawn Cataclysm, not dead but also not quite alive.
3. Lathander was emotionally/mentally affected from having Amaunator in his body, resulting in reckless decisions like during the Lost Gods trilogy, or his seeming gloom at times during the Avatar trilogy.
4. During the battle to imprison Cyric in the wake of the Spellplague, Lathander's body was affected by the chaos of Limbo, where the battle may have been fought (Cyric's realm in Limbo). This caused Amaunator to emerge from within as the dominant will.
5. Amaunator was emotionally/mentally affected from having Lathander in his body, resulting in a change of ideology from his original perspective before the Dawn Cataclysm.
6. Amaunator and Lathander were separated during the events of the Second Sundering, possibly by Lord Ao, who always endeavors to improve the stability of the Cosmic Balance, even if drastic measures have to be taken in the short term.
This is just the take that I've personally developed for my work on DMsGuild, to clean up the mess and set things straight. Each edition has its own canon, as per the official stance of WotC.
|
| Azar |
Posted - 04 Nov 2022 : 01:07:09
Man, I hope not. |
| RandoTheCat |
Posted - 03 Nov 2022 : 22:38:33
Aumunator is the god of the sun/sol, Lathander is the god of a slightly metaphorical new dawn. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 18 Jul 2022 : 22:07:28
To add to George's comment, which I agree with, the Myrkul in Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus is very suspect. Something weird is going on there. If not, all three are present at the same time. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 18 Jul 2022 : 14:57:23
Myrkul is dusk, Lathander is the dawn, and Amaunator is the high sun. They are a three sided triangle with only two faces visible at any time. So, currently the faces visible are Lathander/Amaunator with Lathander eventually to give way to Myrkul. So yes, both Lathander and Amaunator can co-exist.
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jul 2022 : 11:13:36
Information on the Dawn Cataclysm is very, very scant; I don't think we know anything about Amaunator from that time period. |
|
|
