| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 16 Jul 2022 : 03:18:26
Just doing a bit of light reading and note that the gods (and even the dragons) whupped primordial butt over and over. Is there any mention of the primordials slaying a deity? Is it even possible?
— George Krashos |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jul 2022 : 20:40:35
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Ed answered that question to me once, in Twitter. He said that there was no relationship between the world of the dragon overlords and Abeir.
And it makes sense. The Krynnish Overlords are just bigger common dragons with extra powers, while the dragons of Abeir include the bigger variants of the common dragons, plus completely new varieties as well (like Gawervyndhal).
It makes sense to me, as well. I think there's a tendency on the part of some folks to assume quite readily that any other world must mean Abeir. Admittedly, that would be a simpler solution, but given the fact that we know the Realms was intended to connect to a lot of other places, I prefer to think that every case of an unidentified world means it's some place not described anywhere else.
Heck, though we don't know how that person wound up in the Realms, it's canon that there's a Realms NPC from Nehwon (the world of Lankhmar). |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 30 Jul 2022 : 19:49:50
Ed answered that question to me once, in Twitter. He said that there was no relationship between the world of the dragon overlords and Abeir.
And it makes sense. The Krynnish Overlords are just bigger common dragons with extra powers, while the dragons of Abeir include the bigger variants of the common dragons, plus completely new varieties as well (like Gawervyndhal). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jul 2022 : 20:31:35
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Which could imply that the same gigantic dragon overlords that came to Krynn from.... where exactly?..... may have come from Abeir?
I'm fairly certain they are from some unspecified world/plane. Other than being in charge of large chunks of territory, I'm not aware of any similarities between Abeir's dragons and those Krynnish overlord dragons.
well, they were your standard types, just bigger, so that's one thing. It only becomes a truism if Ao and the High God over Krynn got linked, which Ed only mentions as a possibility.
That being said, I know so little about that particular Krynn storyline..... I just know it came after the War of the Lance and someone got the idea of installing draconic overlords, and that the dragons were a lot bigger than normal.
Nowhere near being an expert, but they were more powerful than regular dragons and had some sort of powerful connection to their realms -- enough, I believe to make the land more to their liking. Kinda like the epic lairs thing, now, but larger in scale. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Jul 2022 : 19:21:19
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Which could imply that the same gigantic dragon overlords that came to Krynn from.... where exactly?..... may have come from Abeir?
I'm fairly certain they are from some unspecified world/plane. Other than being in charge of large chunks of territory, I'm not aware of any similarities between Abeir's dragons and those Krynnish overlord dragons.
well, they were your standard types, just bigger, so that's one thing. It only becomes a truism if Ao and the High God over Krynn got linked, which Ed only mentions as a possibility.
That being said, I know so little about that particular Krynn storyline..... I just know it came after the War of the Lance and someone got the idea of installing draconic overlords, and that the dragons were a lot bigger than normal. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jul 2022 : 14:50:17
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Which could imply that the same gigantic dragon overlords that came to Krynn from.... where exactly?..... may have come from Abeir?
I'm fairly certain they are from some unspecified world/plane. Other than being in charge of large chunks of territory, I'm not aware of any similarities between Abeir's dragons and those Krynnish overlord dragons. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Jul 2022 : 14:25:36
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, one last theory to float around here. We have that Abeir and Toril were "split" into two worlds at the time of the death of Asgorath/Asgoroth aka Io... being "split" by Ao. So, what if Ao and Asgorath are separate halves of the same being, created at the moment of death of Io? That could imply that the "gods"/"estelar" had at one time imprisoned away "Ao", but he got released by the batrachi.
Well, there is some intersetting support for this idea. Vanished Moon appendix writer Matthew Martin, did confirm Chaos name - Ionthas - is a tribute to Io. If we see the High God and Chaos as two sides of the same coun, they might be split from one being, like in your theory Ao and Asgoroth.
Ed also stated it's possible, if improbable the High God and Ao are one and the same being:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/does-the-over-god-ao-hold-any-power-outside-the-realmspace-crystal-sphere/
The published Realms and Dragonlance do share some meta connections - like Toril being an initial name for Krynn.
Which could imply that the same gigantic dragon overlords that came to Krynn from.... where exactly?..... may have come from Abeir? |
| Baltas |
Posted - 29 Jul 2022 : 07:27:48
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, one last theory to float around here. We have that Abeir and Toril were "split" into two worlds at the time of the death of Asgorath/Asgoroth aka Io... being "split" by Ao. So, what if Ao and Asgorath are separate halves of the same being, created at the moment of death of Io? That could imply that the "gods"/"estelar" had at one time imprisoned away "Ao", but he got released by the batrachi.
Well, there is some intersetting support for this idea. Vanished Moon appendix writer Matthew Martin, did confirm Chaos name - Ionthas - is a tribute to Io. If we see the High God and Chaos as two sides of the same coun, they might be split from one being, like in your theory Ao and Asgoroth.
Ed also stated it's possible, if improbable the High God and Ao are one and the same being:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/does-the-over-god-ao-hold-any-power-outside-the-realmspace-crystal-sphere/
The published Realms and Dragonlance do share some meta connections - like Toril being an initial name for Krynn. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Jul 2022 : 20:30:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, one last theory to float around here. We have that Abeir and Toril were "split" into two worlds at the time of the death of Asgorath/Asgoroth aka Io... being "split" by Ao. So, what if Ao and Asgorath are separate halves of the same being, created at the moment of death of Io? That could imply that the "gods"/"estelar" had at one time imprisoned away "Ao", but he got released by the batrachi.
I prefer to think that Abeir was never a part of nor had any connection to Toril, and that the whole "twinned by Ao" thing was primordial PR to justify (in mortal eyes) them invading Toril.
Understood, and there's probably dozens of ways to spin something different, but currently this one's the official one, so why not try to spin something that isn't necessarily far from the mark. Another take might be that the world serpent was what broke apart and became Ao and Io and Asgorath, etc... and possibly other "overgods" such as Kukul, the Celestial Emperor, etc....
Just another thing to throw out there, the idea that portions of Toril connect to the outer planes differently than other portions of Toril (i.e. Kara-Tur not having astral connections, but rather connections to the spirit world) might imply that only certain portions of the world were copied or linked somehow to the world of Abeir. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 24 Jul 2022 : 10:21:41
Well I'm gonna start although maybe never finish an article on divinity and the rules and categories etc and how that applies to the different "gods" of toril.
If anyone wants to get in on that discussion then message me. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jul 2022 : 02:18:54
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, one last theory to float around here. We have that Abeir and Toril were "split" into two worlds at the time of the death of Asgorath/Asgoroth aka Io... being "split" by Ao. So, what if Ao and Asgorath are separate halves of the same being, created at the moment of death of Io? That could imply that the "gods"/"estelar" had at one time imprisoned away "Ao", but he got released by the batrachi.
I prefer to think that Abeir was never a part of nor had any connection to Toril, and that the whole "twinned by Ao" thing was primordial PR to justify (in mortal eyes) them invading Toril. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 24 Jul 2022 : 01:20:22
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Just doing a bit of light reading and note that the gods (and even the dragons) whupped primordial butt over and over. Is there any mention of the primordials slaying a deity? Is it even possible?
— George Krashos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg9Pq0s_2_0
~10:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw5xAhwqPt8&t=756s
~16:33
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jul 2022 : 19:55:13
Oh, one last theory to float around here. We have that Abeir and Toril were "split" into two worlds at the time of the death of Asgorath/Asgoroth aka Io... being "split" by Ao. So, what if Ao and Asgorath are separate halves of the same being, created at the moment of death of Io? That could imply that the "gods"/"estelar" had at one time imprisoned away "Ao", but he got released by the batrachi. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jul 2022 : 19:14:52
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Should they function like avatars though?
Gods have avatars because they are supposed to be confined to the outer planes, they are part of their divine realms and therefore a nebulous being of thought and belief.
Avatars serve the purpose of allowing these gods to enact change on the mortal realm (which is difficult if you dont have a body - gods should not have physical form), the gods can create multiple avatars and control them all simultaneously precisely because they have ascended beyond the mortal form. If a god is killed its realm (its body) drifts on the astral plane but can be reborn with enough power (belief). Avatars can be destroyed and created again and again as long as the god has enough power.
Archetypes are beings imbued with the power of an outer plane. They are a physical being, but are tied to the plane that powers them. In order to interact with the material plane they allow others to become aspects of themselves. These aspects are not the same as the archetype, they are independent beings but in order to become an aspect and imbue themselves with the power of the archetype they must have originally had many goals and traits in common with the archetype. If an archetype is destroyed (demogorgon for instance) then another being can become the archetype (the plane seems to choose for itself). If an aspect is destroyed another will choose to become an aspect eventually, sometimes multiple aspects can exist at once.
Primordials i'm not entirely sure about but they seem to be super beings of the material plane and possibly the inner planes (elemental energy perhaps). They have a single physical form, if it is killed they die but otherwise they live forever.
Never heard of these primordial shards before, but i would be tempted to make them be used to create a similar being but not the same, like primordial reproduction. Just may take on it, but if primordials were similar to gods or archetypes we would not need a separate category, because we have a separate category we might as well make them distinct.
and a dead god floating in the astral is a "body" made of "godstone"... almost like its a "dead primordial" form. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jul 2022 : 18:53:20
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Primordials should never create avatars.
True gods create avatars
Archetypes create aspects
Primordials are just primordials
In some respects, a "simulacrum" is an "avatar" of a mortal. We get caught up on a lot of terms (myself included). We should relook into what exactly they might mean. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jul 2022 : 18:48:03
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I am not really familiar with this subject but based on this thread, could the fight have been between primordials with the winning side being "converted" into gods? When AO banished the losers, he could have said that to prevent this from happening again, the remaining primordials either have to become inactive or they will be changed into gods. That is why there are ones that are still here (but "slumbering") and the other powerful beings are gods. That could explain why Selune, Shar, Mystral, and Chauntea were here before mortals (that is my current understanding of Reamspace cosmology).
If we go with the idea that "god" is a template added onto a powerful being, and not a type unto itself, then this theory could go many directions. They could have been primordials, archfey, demons, angels, genies, devils, etc.... and just tagged on the god template "as a reward for being loyal to Ao". The template may come with requirements, like requiring worship energy, etc... |
| Demzer |
Posted - 21 Jul 2022 : 19:39:38
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
How did Tiamat and Bahamut survive with no worshippers for 30000 years
Which 30000 years? I think in Dragons of Faerun they are depicted as the only draconic deities with continuous worship basically since dragons existed on Toril.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
How did Marduk survive when he was slain by Tiamat
How did Tiamat survive when she was slain by Marduk
Avatars.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
How did Tiamat survive when she was slain by Gilgeam
In one of those convoluted ways gods tried (and mostly suceeded) to get around the ToT. She, Mystra (kinda), Waukeen, Bane (but listen to Wooly on this one), Myrkul (not a deity but still survived) got away with it. Actually very few "permanent" deity deaths resulted from the ToT: Ibrandul, Gilgeam, Leira and Bhaal (only because his countless offsprings ultimately failed, but he had a comeback plan too) and a bunch of local demipowers or lesser beings.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
How did Tiamat survive when she was slain by Gareth Dragonsbane and company when she was a demipower (therefore if she was a god she would have only one avatar) How did Tiamat survive when during the Time of Troubles she was slain twice in a conflict that saw gods destroyed for being slain even once
I'm not up to speed on the Cold Lands adventures and history but I think this was slightly after the ToT and maybe she wasn't a demigod? I think this happened in Avernus so it wasn't her planar realm (or at least not her only one, she got homes in Dragons Eyre and Heliopolis too so that might be the trick, having to kill her in all three places to really do the deed).
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
We have very convoluted explanations that do not entirely hold up to examination, but if Tiamat and Bahamut are archetypes all those problems and solutions are not even necessary.
Occams Razor and all that jazz.
I don't see many complications in explaining this stuff away, I'm possibly getting the 30000 years you are referring to wrong (but Toril's history doesn't allow for much space for such a big span of time) and maybe there is something cheesy going on with the Gareth Dragonsbane stuff that I don't know but overall Tiamat and Bahamut being deities (especially when they are called out as such, have established churches, priests, etc...) doesn't seem like a stretch to me. And you don't have to come up with archetypes and having another category of "uber powerful beings with deity like abilities, deity like worship and deity like behaviour but totally not a deity" (which is something I don't like of the Primordials even and that muddies a lot of planar stuff). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Jul 2022 : 16:16:55
Or, souls are not equal, but the worship is the same value, it is the death that provides a different value.
So dragons aren't pious, worship provides the same amount of power so dragon gods get virtually nothing compared to Faerunian pantheon gods.
If miracles and avatars and maintaining a divine realm and other stuff costs power then these dragon gods are going to be fairly starved of power and therefore perform relatively few activities on the material plane because all their power must go towards maintaining their divine realm.
Buuttt, when a dragon dies, because it is a racial pantheon, the soul goes to whichever dragon god represents their life and personality etc. These dragons are worth the sum total of all their experience and a 2000 year old 30+ HD dragon could provide enough power to help a dragon deity maintain his divine realm for a century.
There are also cost savings to be made on things like divine realms, making sure you are aligned to the plane it is on helps (immortals handbook), sharing your realm with other gods (all the dragon gods share the same place and just have a little portion of it i believe).
So these dragon gods may have survived on slim pickings for ages by doing very little and sharing the maintenance of a divine realm.
That being said, TIamat and Bahamut were unique monsters in d&d, quasi deities in the OGB, varying levels of deity in 2e to 3e, archetypes in 4e, who knows what in 5e. Their state is fluid and that means its very much up to the individual what they want them to be.
To my mind, them being archetypes solves many of the problems that required special scenarios to be created to explain inconsistencies (that still arent completely explained). How did Tiamat and Bahamut survive with no worshippers for 30000 years
How did Marduk survive when he was slain by Tiamat
How did Tiamat survive when she was slain by Marduk
How did Tiamat survive when she was slain by Gilgeam
How did Tiamat survive when she was slain by Gareth Dragonsbane and company when she was a demipower (therefore if she was a god she would have only one avatar) How did Tiamat survive when during the Time of Troubles she was slain twice in a conflict that saw gods destroyed for being slain even once
We have very convoluted explanations that do not entirely hold up to examination, but if Tiamat and Bahamut are archetypes all those problems and solutions are not even necessary.
Occams Razor and all that jazz.
|
| Demzer |
Posted - 21 Jul 2022 : 15:34:02
Just throwing my two cents here on dragons (and giants and other beasties) gods.
(Sorry for not referencing this stuff but I don't have time to go dig in the sourcebooks right now)
Personally I always assumed that for such powerful and (most of the time) inherently magical beings, the worship of a handful of individuals was enough to keep their gods alive, kicking and powerful.
Just thinking of the demographics, demihumans breed like rabbits and are everywhere on the planet while giants are very sparse and even in their own "big" population centers there are what? A few hundreds? So if a lesser deity requires the worship of tens of thousands of souls, there are not enough giants alive on Faerun to keep up even a couple of the deities and even then they would be extremely weak. Yet the giant's gods have not been steamrolled over by the (extremely expansionistic) Faerunian pantheon despite there being lots of them and the loyalties of their people being divided with some worshipping the elemental gods or select demihuman gods (like the Gods of Fury). Of course they are extremely diminished since the time of Ostoria but they've got stable geographical pockets of influence and still definitely exist in modern Faerun.
Dragons are another matter entirely, beside not being very pious beings, there are even fewer of them. So to keep a dragon god up through worship should be completely impossible now (unless you recruit thousands of demihumans, like Bahamut and Tiamat do) and was probably extremely difficult in the past too (were there even ever millions of dragons worshiping the same god on Toril? Don't think so, so no greater dragon god ever? Don't think so either).
This is partly corroborated by the reference in Realms canon (I think after the ToT when Tiamat had her champion kill and eat other powerful chromatic dragons to re-emerge) of the existence of "the last worshiper of K..." (think it was the deity Kereska, maybe it's the Millenium Dragon or another powerful one down by the Old Empires) whom basically was keeping the deity alive on their own.
Of course, this opens up a whole can of "souls are then not equal" issues that I sidestep by flinging myself into D&D stats and saying that the "faith power" of a 20HD/20th level being is more than that of a 1HD/1st level being (which means, besides experience levels, most demihumans should be about equal). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jul 2022 : 11:12:12
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
And its clear that as far as gods go, Bahamut and Tiamat just dont fit the mould
In your opinion. Personally, I don't see any reason why not to call them gods, since they've been explicitly called gods in the past and did everything gods do, like live on the outer planes and have clerics they granted spells to.
Here's the thing: dragons are not human. Why should their gods "fit the mould" of human/demihuman deities when their primary worshippers are not human or demihuman? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Jul 2022 : 07:06:58
Primordial dragons does seem to be another word for archetype, but it seems it is a material plane or perhaps racial archetype, somewhat different from planar archetype.
No idea how a racial archetype would work, perhaps they gain power from the number of those species, no idea how such a mystical link would work though, but maybe the material plane can invest energy into its chosen champions just like the outer planes.
In previous editions they lacked the language or definition of what the language meant to use it consistently, but it was used across many editions. 4e provided the rules for archetypes in a more codified way but those rules were hinted at all along. And its clear that as far as gods go, Bahamut and Tiamat just dont fit the mould
The elemental gods are good examples of gods that should be archetypes. Their power is unrelated to their worship and they dont care about worship (because they dont need it). You can worship and archetype all you like, you may even get spells in return, but that doesnt mean the archetype is a god. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 21 Jul 2022 : 03:43:39
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
In all previous editions Bahamut and Tiamat have been Archetypes. I see no reason to change that. It may be that they were primordials first and were then became the archetypal representatives of dragons. But they definitely shouldn't be considered the same as gods because even the FR lore, muddled as it is, matches more closely with archetypes than gods.
Except for when they were explicitly listed as deities, such as in 2E and 3E.
Kossuth has been across the board, right? |1e Lesser power|2e/3e Greater Diety|4e Primordial|5e doesn't care and gives everyone divine domains anyway. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jul 2022 : 00:55:25
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
In all previous editions Bahamut and Tiamat have been Archetypes. I see no reason to change that. It may be that they were primordials first and were then became the archetypal representatives of dragons. But they definitely shouldn't be considered the same as gods because even the FR lore, muddled as it is, matches more closely with archetypes than gods.
Except for when they were explicitly listed as deities, such as in 2E and 3E. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 20 Jul 2022 : 23:02:34
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
In all previous editions Bahamut and Tiamat have been Archetypes. I see no reason to change that.
Well, WotC already changed it with their Fizban's book, although "primordial dragon" can be a fancy name for "archetype". They function basically the same. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 20 Jul 2022 : 22:54:43
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
With Primordials becoming gods, there might be an example, Brian James did suggest Tiamat (and by extension, Bajamut) are Primordials who became gods, by stating Lotan (daughter of Tiamat) was a primordial:
https://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=19136#448466
Io himself is complicated - Ed confirmed Io and Asgoroth/Asgorath are one and the same:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/the-symbol-of-the-all-dragon-world-dragon/
WotC went with this line of thought with their new 5e mythology. In Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, Bahamut and Tiamat (and by extension, Io and Sardior, and even perhaps Eberron's Progenitor dragons) are said to be "primordial dragons", ontologically different to gods and primordials because they originated from the Material Plane, while gods are from the Astral planes and the primordials from the Elemental planes.
As for Io/Asgorath, his (or her, as Asgorath is said to be female) relationship with both the gods and primordials hints that perhaps Io is member of this race that were "kin to both" gods and primordials, much like the guardian of the Living Gate (4e PHB3). The 2e Monster Mythology sourcebook implies Io is an aspect of the World Serpient, a being that predates the gods as we know them. Io may be older than even the Lady of Pain, if we go by 3e sources... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 Jul 2022 : 17:44:33
Primordials to gods make sense. All it takes is worship (and ascension), and let's face it, mortals are naturally going to worship the biggest most impressive thing they can find, which is a primordial.
In all previous editions Bahamut and Tiamat have been Archetypes. I see no reason to change that. It may be that they were primordials first and were then became the archetypal representatives of dragons. But they definitely shouldn't be considered the same as gods because even the FR lore, muddled as it is, matches more closely with archetypes than gods.
Bahamut and Tiamat have no meaningful worship for 30000 years and then suddenly reappear for mortals to worship. Archetypes require no worship and can allow aspects to arise anywhere anytime (providing someone or thing wants to become and aspect).
Tiamat and Bahamut existed multiple times on Toril at the same time. We have the Tiamat the 3 headed dragon queen of Unther and Tiamat the 5 headed dragon queen . For Bahamut we have both Bahamut and Marduk.
Then we have the multiple different names, Bahamut, Xymor, Marduk, each with seemingly different goals. Marduk was a defender of humans and Unther but Bahamut would never have condoned the slavery and slaughter that Unther practised ( even before Gilgeam was king).
Primordial to god and primordial too archetype makes sense and almost certainly happened many times in the distant past.
Archetype to god makes no sense because an archetype has all the power and advantages of a god (huge power, can create multiple aspects across the multiverse, can donate their power in the form of spells etc) but none of the weaknesses (do not die if no one worships them).
God to archetype is seemingly unlikely as a god represents its worshippers and is rarely going to be the perfect example of what a plane represents. However I would argue that Lolths silence represented her changing from a deity into an archetype because she had always been slightly unwelcome in her own plane (being attacked by spontaneously forming oozes etc) and is the only way I can see her increasing in power after losing so many worshippers (the abyssal plane she occupies imbued her with its power and she became a true demon lord.
Just my thoughts though
|
| Baltas |
Posted - 20 Jul 2022 : 16:26:23
With Primordials becoming gods, there might be an example, Brian James did suggest Tiamat (and by extension, Bajamut) are Primordials who became gods, by stating Lotan (daughter of Tiamat) was a primordial:
https://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=19136#448466
Io himself is complicated - Ed confirmed Io and Asgoroth/Asgorath are one and the same:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/the-symbol-of-the-all-dragon-world-dragon/
Which is interesting as Asgorath is described as a Primordial in most Realm sources.
Io though, even in Nerath were he is described as a God/Estelar, has a deep connection to the elemental planes, and indeed had pretension to authority over Primordials, which caused his conflict with (other?) Primordials. Io was also stated to among gods, fought as the only primordials himself alone, and defeating many of their number, with Erek-Hus victory being suggested as possibly only happening due to Zehir's betrayal, and very possibly fatigue and wounds of Io (from past battles) (or rather divine/primordial equivalent, damaging his essence and expending to much energy).
Draconomicon 2: Metallic Dragons, p.6:
quote:
Foremost among the gods in valor and physical power, Io fought and defeated many primordials in the Dawn War.
4E Monster Manual p.74:
quote:
Io's arrogance was his downfall. While the other gods banded together to combat the primordials, Io spurned the help of other gods.
This would though fit with how powerful Io was stated to be in the past lore. There is also a possibility Io was from the start a is a liminal being between a primordial and god.
Though as I noted in past, some Primordials are or were at least semi-draconic themselves, like the mentioned Rorn.
Changing the topic a bit, Rorn himself is a very interesting character, as he is a primordial who seemingly cared about his followers (even specifically being noted as compassionate, when not lost in fury), and despite his temper, was among the only, or only voice during the Dawn War advocating for peace between Gods and Primordials, but gods couldn’t accept his suggestion, due to fearing and hating him to much for the deaths he caused among the gods. In general, he was a bit underutilized in 4E, and I would like him to reappear or be mentioned in some form.
[EDIT]
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I wonder how the spellweavers fit into this.
This is quite interesting - 4E Nerath lore has Spellweavers claim their civilisation predates both gods and primordials, or even time when the Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos were not separate but one (or in a Great Wheel perspective - I would guess before Inner Planes, Outer Planes, Astral Plane and Ethereal Plane were separate entities.)
It is also stated Spellweavers fought against the earliest incursions from the Far Realms, as welll as tried to stop "the Seed of Chaos" (possibly the obyrith’s Shard of Pure Evil?) from entering the young cosmos - the Weavers ultimatelly failed, and the Seed's incursion caused the separation I mentioned, as well as shattering of the Spellweaver empire (4E Monster Manual 3).
Though it is stated in-universe most scholars think that at least the Spellweavers claim of predating gods and primordial is not true. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 20 Jul 2022 : 02:52:48
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Well thats a take i never expected. Especially given that we have a date for first arrival of elves (although not necessarily wild elves) and dwarves in Toril.
"In realmspace" implies that elves and dwarves were located on other planets. So either the elves and dwarves have a homeland of sorts in Realmspace (Faerie) that we know nothing about or that does not exist anymore (Faerie), or they arrived in spelljammers but did not continue onto Toril for whatever reason, and then the "gods" decided to have a fight with primordials, presumably to carve out a new world.
I wonder how the spellweavers fit into this.
on the "or they arrived in spelljammers", when the spellweavers blew everything up I'm sure it made some people look for new homes. Toril was iirc always supposed to be a very old world, though. And a big powerful glowing one. Ancient societies existing before the spellweaver affair may have already known about Toril and had gates already set up to it and other locations in realmspace. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Jul 2022 : 22:18:10
I dont think there is need for another category.
We have archetypes for super powerful beings from the outer planes, which covers the likes of Bahamut, tiamat, maybe even primus, and the rulers of celestial etc.
But shadevari dont seem to be aspects as they are not independent of whatever they are linked to.
So that leaves a primordial. Now we have material plane primordials that seem to be linked to the inner planes which makes sense because the elemental stuff of the inner planes is what makes up most of the material plane.
We also have other planar versions of primordials. There is a sidebar in one book that talks about netherese encounters with an impossible large far plane entity that morphs them all into something weird. It wasnt a god, it probably wasnt an archetype, so that leaves primordial.
We also have some outer planar creatures that may be primordial related - maram of the great spear came from another plane to Faerun but it is possible he could have originated from the material plane first. I'm not sure I like outer planar primordials but certainly far plane, shadow plane, etc all work as a place for primordial origins.
Thus shadevari could work as shards of a primordial creature that we havent encountered yet. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 19 Jul 2022 : 21:40:25
Ok, so shadevari are not from the elemental planes. How about they are another type of being? Lets call them "espacions" and they similar to "estelars" in that they are proto-god-like in some ways but they can be permanently killed and they have shards instead of avatars like primordials. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Jul 2022 : 20:19:09
Maybe the shards are just tiny minions (relatively speaking in power terms, not even on the divine power level spectrum)
I vaguely recall the soul shards of Telos, they tend to act more like golems or automatons. |
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