| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Talinfein |
Posted - 12 May 2004 : 11:56:08
Greetings all,
I have a question that is vital to a character of mine and his future development. To explain everything, as always, would take far too much space and time, so here´s the short version.
I am playing, and have been for a long time, a character whose background started as him being an "original" dark elf (forgot the term), who was turned into a Baelnorn by his father when the Drow were forced underground by the other elven races. The theory is that there were some drow not entirely happy with this decision. My character´s father turned him into a benevolent Lich hoping that his son would find a way to keep away from the doomed dark elven race and escape the wrath of the elves.
The ritual succeeded, mainly, but hurled my character through the planes and he spent hundreds of years trying to get back to Faerun. When he finally did, it was during the current time.
During the time traveling the planes and by being turned into a Lich, he lost some of his sanity, and slowly forgot what it was like to be an elf, and so on.
When he had the chance to become a Shadow Adept, he took it, and slid further into darkness.
Now, my plan for this character has always been for him to redeem himself at the end of the campaign (sort of like Darth Vader did), though I don´t necessarily want him to die.
He is now very powerful (so much that our campaign has turned almost 100% to roleplaying - we´re not out to slay chosen or become gods...) and is a Drow/Lich/Shade/Wizard5/Shadow Adept10/Archmage5/Epic Shadow Adept 2.
The events in our campaign have reached a point where I would like him to start reconsidering his course (meaning lichdom, the shadow weave and all that). Now the question is: can it be done? Can he turn away from Shar and embrace Mystra again? Would either goddess let him? I could imagine that he could persuade Mystra by offering her his knowledge of the Shadow Weave, but Shar would not be too pleased about that. What about lichdom? Can undeath be reversed in some way? I am thinking major atonement here. I would like the character to survive, so I can use him as mentor-like figure in later campaigns (sort of like Raistlin in the War of Souls trilogy).
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. |
| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 10:03:02
Thinking about it... said person may be in mortal danger as well. For it could be thought that they would be slain outright as they are far too powerful and may serve to upset the balance... |
| Urlithani |
Posted - 15 May 2004 : 20:38:44
I think almost anyone is able to be redeemed.
Mystra and Shar would only tug at your favor if you were already an important instrument in their plans, or future plans, which you stated.
I think the character would be influenced by both sides covertly. If you chose Mystra, Shar would not likely send agents; after all, even if she cut you off from the Shadow Weave, you are still a lich. There'd be little point in sending dedicated worshippers to die trying to sieze and coerce someone of questionable faith.
Most likely there will be a few arduous, undeath or death trials and how you react to them that will determine which way your character sways. Of course, these deadly situations would not pit Shar's worshippers at risk; you'll just be drawn to some deadly location where someone else's agents can be obliterated. ;)
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| Sarelle |
Posted - 13 May 2004 : 12:02:35
It sounds to me like you have developed this character very nicely, and that a transition would be done maturely and with a lot of thought - so I really see no reason why it shouldn't happen.
I'm afraid I'm not sure if the characetr you are talking about is a PC, or an NPC, or a bit of both, but:
1) If he is a PC, then ultimately this is all down to your DM - but I would suggest that the change would change your campaign into a war of survival - with the lost powers (under the Shadow Adept entry of the PtGF) and Shar's followers seeking to bring you back, forcibly and subtely.
2) If he is an NPC, he would become harried by Shar's followers etc. and might ask any other PCs for help, for the ultimate benefit of Mystra. This might make him a particularly interesting take on the 'guiding sage' NPC.
3) If you use both (somehow) then you should combine the two.
Hope that helps, and good luck with your character - he seems to be very interesting. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 12 May 2004 : 23:25:53
quote:
Originally posted by kahonen
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
On the other hand, good elven liches like baelnorns are accepted by people.
I would have to disagree with you, I'm afraid. I don't believe that undead of any form are accepted by people. A baelnorn may be more acceptable than a normal lich but I don't believe for a second that it would be "accepted by people"
As for your earlier post where you said "kahonen, it's not impossible for Talinfein's character to change", I didn't say it was impossible - I said that as a DM I didn't believe it would happen for the reasons I stated.
There is an awful lot more to this than simply finding a part of a book which details how someone can find redemption. Reread my original answer and you will see what I mean.
The first thing I would ask Talinfein is why this character, having been granted the powers he has would suddenly want to change. You don't wake up one morning and think "I'm gonna start being good/neutral/evil today"
Why is this seen as redemption when redemption is about getting something back which you have lost. It may be redemption if the player was originally good, changed to evil and then wanted to change back to good. This doesn't appear to be the case.
None of your responses address the power shift problem either.
First of all, when I said "accepted by people", I don't mean the lich can parade around the market of Waterdeep and not receive stares or threats.
Second, the part about Halaster was an example. This is how a message board works when you want to prove something. You give evidence from sources.
And yes, none of my responses was about the power shift because that wasn't what I was talking about. I was still on whether he can still be redeemed. As for losing power, I agree with you because it's no minor thing betraying a deity. However, this could be good for Talinfein's character because he said that his character is too powerful and its almost all roleplay now. This decrease in power may provide an opportunity to allow his character to start adventuring again to gain back that loss in experience. |
| Talinfein |
Posted - 12 May 2004 : 23:10:13
Kahonen - I understand what you are trying to say and like your insights. This transition would take some time to roleplay correctly and wouldn´t be done overnight.
Some more information: the character originally was CG, before being changed into a lich, then shifted to NG and then CN to reflect the changes in his personality while away from Faerun. When he got back, his actions, philosophy and all became more and more NE, which is what he is now. So, yes, it would be returning to something he once was.
The way I always saw the character, the state of being undead slowly let him forget what it was like to be an elf - the appreciation of nature, art, and everything else beautiful in life. By turning him into a lich, his father gave him the power to outlive the hunting elves, even take his revenge on the drow now and then, but it also unmade all that he loved in life.
In recent adventures, though, the character had a chance to reflect on his actions and face some of the inner demons haunting him and thus I think it is time for me as a player to make a decision for him - will he be Shar´s new playing piece in her game against Mystra or not.
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| kahonen |
Posted - 12 May 2004 : 21:27:48
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
On the other hand, good elven liches like baelnorns are accepted by people.
I would have to disagree with you, I'm afraid. I don't believe that undead of any form are accepted by people. A baelnorn may be more acceptable than a normal lich but I don't believe for a second that it would be "accepted by people"
As for your earlier post where you said "kahonen, it's not impossible for Talinfein's character to change", I didn't say it was impossible - I said that as a DM I didn't believe it would happen for the reasons I stated.
There is an awful lot more to this than simply finding a part of a book which details how someone can find redemption. Reread my original answer and you will see what I mean.
The first thing I would ask Talinfein is why this character, having been granted the powers he has would suddenly want to change. You don't wake up one morning and think "I'm gonna start being good/neutral/evil today"
Why is this seen as redemption when redemption is about getting something back which you have lost. It may be redemption if the player was originally good, changed to evil and then wanted to change back to good. This doesn't appear to be the case.
None of your responses address the power shift problem either.
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| DDH_101 |
Posted - 12 May 2004 : 18:34:53
For redemption, the Book of Exalted Deeds has lots of info on it.
Chyron, actually most characters won't mind if the lich is good. Most characters don't like liches because a large percentage of them are evil and they have an aura around them that makes people uncomfortable. On the other hand, good elven liches like baelnorns are accepted by people. |
| Cherrn |
Posted - 12 May 2004 : 15:42:20
I think Mystra would accept the character back, but denouncing the Shadow Weave and Shar can be a costly thing. First of all, your character wouldn't regain the point of wisdom he/she lost for walking down the path of the shadow weave, secondly, he/she should loose all the shadow weave feats, you know, tenacious magic and so on. The cost for leaving Shar should be almost too much, if not too much, but your characters wish to redeem himself/herself should even greater, just to put heroic touch to it  |
| Chyron |
Posted - 12 May 2004 : 15:20:38
I had to say I would agree with Kahonen.
Theoretically if Mystra can cut off anyone (even Avatars) who is on the prime material plane from the weave, then it makes sense the Shar can do the same for the Shadow Weave. And I think your character would soon find himself without any access to it once he gives a nod in Mystra's direction.
In my mind reversing a path from dark to light is much harder than the other way around. You used Darth Vader (Anakin) as your example, but while he did find salvation he died in the end sacrificing his life to do so. A character on such a path as yours (Lich Shade Shadowmage) has offended (and is offensive to) many powers that be both in the Elven pantheon and the human pantheon. It seems he has much to answer for and any path you choose to redemption should be extremely difficult.
Being both somewhat insane and far more powerful than most characters I would say he has a better chance of becoming a mysterious figure more like Halaster Blackcloak as he doesn't sound like he has the stability to be a mentor. And as you said there is the whole "lich" thing going on...not many "good" characters would want to spend much time around a Lich, be he benevolent or not.
Of course the final say is really up to your DM. Everyone is different.
If it were me as the DM, I would have to go with the hard line and say that self sacrifice for an extremely good cause would be the only way to earn salvation, but then of course the character is dead. But if the player role-played well enough I would allow the characters spirit to remain tied to the material plane. He would be powerless in terms of abilities, but his wisdom would be of benefit to any who would listen.
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| DDH_101 |
Posted - 12 May 2004 : 15:11:01
kahonen, it's not impossible for Talinfein's character to change.
For example, if you have read Elminster in Hell, you would know that Halaster Blackcloak was touched by Shar. Afterwards, when Mystra needed someone to rescue Elminster, she went to Halaster and converted him back to her faith. This mad wizard is a very high level and powerful character, but yet Shar didn't do anything about it and Mystra still accepted him. |
| kahonen |
Posted - 12 May 2004 : 12:46:25
Personally, I'd say you have a few very fundamental problems with what you are proposing.
1. I'd suggest a little humbleness in your approach to Mystra. Trying to buy favour with a goddess by offering knowledge that you believe she doesn't have is making a very dangerous assumption.
2. Looking at the level/power of your character what you are suggesting could represent a serious change in the balance of power between the two gods. This could have many effects: Shar will not allow you to change, Mystra will respect the need for balance and refuse to allow you to change, or other gods may notice the possible shift in balance and power and themselves intervene.
3. I'd say that without a doubt, the church of Shar will become involved in any attempt to change, as (possibly) would the church of Mystra. This in itself presents a serious problem and (again, considering the power represented by your character) could even lead to all out war between the two churches as one tries to get rid of your character while the other tries to protect him (and he would need protection regardless of his level).
4. How will the change (if allowed) affect your character? What powers and abilities will he lose. As a DM, if I allowed the change the effect would be dramatic and result in some very severe penalties. Don't think for a second that any penalties of leaving Shar will immediately be replaced by Mystra - the gods don't work that way. I'd suggest that Mystra would consider that accepting you into her faith would be reward enough. Of course, once your character has been weakened you've then got the problems of followers of Shar seeking revenge.
Personally (and again, speaking as a DM) my response to the request would be that you have left it too late. What you are considering appears to be similar to Elminster going the other way.
Realistically, it just wouldn't happen.
But then again, my players tend to retire their characters before they get to the kind of level you are talking about.
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