| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 26 Mar 2022 : 15:20:30
I know these questions have been asked before. Sorry if I'm repeating..
My questions are...
Would/could Halruaa (prior to spell plague) be an archetype of India?
What southern realms countries, besides the obvious Calimshan, Unther-Mulhorand, etc countries would be other archetypes?
If I were writing a script for a movie or series & I used Indian motifs for my exposition of Halruaa would I be diverging too much from the source material?
Thanks in advance!
H.H.H. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 13:21:33
quote:
Is this the Rings of Power series that Amazon advertised? I never saw anything about the series, so there is no positive or negative impression on my part.
Yes. There are already quite a few youtube videos and Amazon has had to remove a video of their "influencers" hyping the series.
It's not been received well by Tolkien purists. (Like me.) |
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 13:14:08
Thanks Tom!
Will reach out to James this week.
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
quote:
Originally posted by HellixHarpell
Thanks Thomas! I totally missed Mahasarpa. Do you know if James Wyatt is still doing games design? I think he developed the campaign supplement right?
H.H.H.
sorry for the delayed response. Just got back from being away. James is still very much employed by WotC. He moved over to Magic the Gathering (may still be there), but did a lot of the Magic-D&D crossover stuff from both sides and also was the lead on Fizban's, which had nothing to do with Magic.
|
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 12:48:35
quote:
I get tired of "fans" rushing to condemn something that doesn't immediately appear to conform exactly to their own personal desires, especially when the thing being judged isn't even out yet.
Sorry if I "tire" you Rupert. We all judge on 1st impressions (don't we?).
I was excited that the 2nd age was going to be brought to the screen until... I saw how they were going to do it.
Count me as one in the camp of "Don't mess with Tolkien's source material." (That's the original intent of this thread W/ re: Forgotten Realms source material.)
I don't want to go on some long diatribe over the Rings of Power. This is not the place for it. My comments were meant to compare the intent of any screenplay for FR to my opinions on Amazon. Anyone who plays D&D, creates material for D&D, LOVES D&D owes a debt of gratitude to Tolkien. If it weren't for him I'd wager we wouldn't be discussing this right now.
If the moderators would like, I'd be happy to create a separate topic on the RoP & how it compares/contrasts with FR.
H.H.H.
|
| Delnyn |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 03:25:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by HellixHarpell
The Realms was already a diverse world before the idiots at Amazon decided to ruin Tolkien's masterpiece with their ill-conceived vision.
*And create a huge stink among fantasy fans.*
Really? It's not even out yet, but it's already ruined everything Tolkien did? 
I get tired of "fans" rushing to condemn something that doesn't immediately appear to conform exactly to their own personal desires, especially when the thing being judged isn't even out yet.
Is this the Rings of Power series that Amazon advertised? I never saw anything about the series, so there is no positive or negative impression on my part. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 01:02:36
quote:
Originally posted by HellixHarpell
Thanks Thomas! I totally missed Mahasarpa. Do you know if James Wyatt is still doing games design? I think he developed the campaign supplement right?
H.H.H.
sorry for the delayed response. Just got back from being away. James is still very much employed by WotC. He moved over to Magic the Gathering (may still be there), but did a lot of the Magic-D&D crossover stuff from both sides and also was the lead on Fizban's, which had nothing to do with Magic. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 00:03:23
quote:
Originally posted by HellixHarpell
The Realms was already a diverse world before the idiots at Amazon decided to ruin Tolkien's masterpiece with their ill-conceived vision.
*And create a huge stink among fantasy fans.*
Really? It's not even out yet, but it's already ruined everything Tolkien did?
I get tired of "fans" rushing to condemn something that doesn't immediately appear to conform exactly to their own personal desires, especially when the thing being judged isn't even out yet. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 00:00:47
quote:
Originally posted by HellixHarpell
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
https://www.tsrarchive.com/3o/Mahasarpa.pdf
Eric. Your personal website link doesn't work btw..
Works for me. |
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 16:35:27
The Mar actually crossed my mind when deciding on the list of races to include in the script. The were an oppressed people. Could have made for an interesting story arc but difficult to mesh into the overall arc. Many younger Realms fans don't know them and for the audience who doesn't know the Realms at all, was hard to "move" them so far west.
I have a Kara-Turan Monk-Priest making a cameo though.
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
It was interesting that Ed mentioned in a tweet that the Mar (the indigenous people of the Utter East) have gray skin and eye colours that range from gold to crimson. So there are human ethnicities in FR that quite literally have no parallel on Earth, not just on a cultural level, but physically as well.
|
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 16:24:51
It would all depend on their environment,(weather) (amount of Oxygen present in the air) food they ate, etc. as to what Thayans look like in the present day (which I will call 1372 DR.) I don't acknowledge Shade returning and the Spellplague. :-(
I always had them looking somewhat Mediterranean, dark hair, olive-skinned. That's how I envisioned their race evolving from what was brought in by the Mulhorandi gods.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
To be fair, the Red Wizards of Thay are going to be the exception to the "no RL parallels" even if you dump Kara-Tur, Maztica, and all the other tacked on ones.
Because the Mulhorand are very likely not Ancient Egyptian analogs but ACTUAL Ancient Egyptians transplanted Stargate style.
Actual Egyptians, yes, but transported to a different environ, with different neighbors and chances for intermixing with them, and then a few thousand years of time tacked on -- so today's Thayans wouldn't necessarily look like the founders of Thay, and those founders wouldn't necessarily look like the folks that had previously hung out on the Nile.
(Though, as I recall, it's never been explicitly stated that those folks were grabbed from Earth... It could have been the world from the Stargate movie, for all we know!)
|
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 16:18:17
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
https://www.tsrarchive.com/3o/Mahasarpa.pdf
Eric. Your personal website link doesn't work btw..
|
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 16:16:08
Interesting..
I always envisioned Tamm's voice to be lower, yeah, somewhat etherial like Malek's but a couple of octaves lower.
Still creepy if voiced over by Malek though.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
To be fair, the Red Wizards of Thay are going to be the exception to the "no RL parallels" even if you dump Kara-Tur, Maztica, and all the other tacked on ones.
Because the Mulhorand are very likely not Ancient Egyptian analogs but ACTUAL Ancient Egyptians transplanted Stargate style.
Which I always liked and found clever rather than weird.
It also means Ssass Tam should be voiced/played by Raimi Malek.
informative and well-written.
|
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 16:10:37
Thanks for adding to this discussion Eric! Always enjoyed your work!
Yes, I go way back to the late 70s, early 80s DnD and have a deep respect for those who put their life's work into the Realms.
There's so much to discuss W/Re: Races in the Realms
My current hobby/effort/dream, writing a FR series. And one of my main characters is a mage from Halruaa. (who I'm hoping will be played by a Hindi actor.)
So, how do we handle the Realms races on the big and little screens? Simple really...
The Realms was already a diverse world before the idiots at Amazon decided to ruin Tolkien's masterpiece with their ill-conceived vision.
*And create a huge stink among fantasy fans.*
My script handles the issue of diversity without trying to make a statement about gender or race-politics.
A multi-national cast will reflect the various locales of the Realms. It has what Amazon wishes IT could do. (Hindi Halruaans, Chultans, Puerto-Rican female Elves, Irish Sune-ites & of course English clerics.)
And I would take it even further than that (without taking the beards off of female dwarves) by making the dwarves of the south have more melanin in their skin to protect against UV rays. (It really is ALL about evolution imo.)
When visualizing FR locations I've always used earth archetypes, and if a series is to be a great story with stunning visuals (Like GoT was.) you've got to integrate images the audience can relate to. GRR Martin knew this going in. There HAS to be places in the Realms that are awe-inspiring. Not just a random Scottish castle placed on a hill.
By integrating various earth architecture motifs into a FR city it will aid in the suspension of disbelief & that's what you want your visuals to achieve. GoT did this extremely well IMO.
For the audience that doesn't know what the Realms looks like you need to create "connections" for them without making the Realms seem a copy of what everyone has seen before. Yes, it's a tall task but if you want people to enjoy your creation you have to make those compromises.
Due to travel & budget restraints..
Waterdeep HAS to be believable though. (Mix CGI with set bldgs.)
Anaruoch, CGI enhanced SW American desert..
Myth Drannor (filmed in the Canadian wilderness) has to teleport the audience through the once splendid streets of Cormanthyr *That has turned into the home of evil.* (and not look like the last fight scene in The Fellowship of the Ring.)
I hope I've added more to the discussion here without seeming like an unbending old fart who thinks he knows it all.
I LOVE the Realms. Moreso than any world I've read about. The story of the Realms needs to be told on the screen.
After Amazon commits literary contempt of court The Realms would be a refreshing change. A story that's compelling, inclusive (without trying to be inclusive) & visually stunning.
H.H.H.
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
One of my players is an Indian American woman who basically asked, "Where in the Realms can someone who looks like me be from?"
I think this is a challenging question, but worthy of discussion. My thoughts on this could definitely use some alternative perspectives, as I come from a specific cultural heritage with all the unseen biases that entails.
As conceived by Ed, the Realms does NOT have real world analogs. In fact, if you look at the old gray box, there are no discussions of what humans look like. So the answer to her question probably should be "any where you want."
In the 2e Realms, various writers gradually (e.g. Tethens, Mulan) or deliberately (The Horde, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Al-Qadim) introduce some real world analogs to Earth cultures, so we have pseudo-Mongolia, pseudo-East Asia, pseudo-Mesoamerica, and pseudo-Arabia. However, that's clearly not an exhaustive list of Earth-like cultures and there's not a mapping for every ethnic group. While I never liked that aspect of TSR's stewardship, that was the choice of the company at the time.
In 3e, Tom's fantastic work on languages in Dragon magazine was consolidated down in the 3e FRCS into a smaller more manageable number. In so doing, the authors of the 3e FRCS did lose some of the richness he had worked out. Some of the work I contributed to in Races of Faerun ended up with a set of human ethnicities built off scattered 2e references (e.g. Tethens). Again, the total number was quite finite for space reasons, although you can see us hinting at far more. Some of those ethnicities clearly resembled Earth-analogs (e.g. Chultans, Illuskans) while others did not (e.g. Mulan, Sossrim, Tethens). This also effectively excluded a lot of potential "looks like me" analogs in the Realms, which is a significant weakness in my opinion.
If a player quite reasonably asks, "where can a character be from who looks like me?", the first question would be do you mean physically or culturally or both? Does she want to play a character who looks Indian or a character is from a pseudo-Indian fantasy analog or both?
My personal preference would be to de-emphasize cultural similarities to Earth analogs across the board, as they tend to be poorly conceived interpretations by Western authors without cultural anchors, but to be extremely inclusive in terms of appearance. In other words, if you want to play someone who "looks like you", I would make sure to make that possible in any part of the Realms. But I don't think an "Indian-looking character" necessarily needs to be from a Realms culture that is focused on rakshasa and yuan-ti and sticks out like a sore thumb in Waterdeep.
So, I hope that makes sense, and I welcome thoughts from those with other perspectives.
--Eric
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 22:36:33
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
To be fair, the Red Wizards of Thay are going to be the exception to the "no RL parallels" even if you dump Kara-Tur, Maztica, and all the other tacked on ones.
Because the Mulhorand are very likely not Ancient Egyptian analogs but ACTUAL Ancient Egyptians transplanted Stargate style.
Actual Egyptians, yes, but transported to a different environ, with different neighbors and chances for intermixing with them, and then a few thousand years of time tacked on -- so today's Thayans wouldn't necessarily look like the founders of Thay, and those founders wouldn't necessarily look like the folks that had previously hung out on the Nile.
(Though, as I recall, it's never been explicitly stated that those folks were grabbed from Earth... It could have been the world from the Stargate movie, for all we know!) |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 21:43:01
To be fair, the Red Wizards of Thay are going to be the exception to the "no RL parallels" even if you dump Kara-Tur, Maztica, and all the other tacked on ones.
Because the Mulhorand are very likely not Ancient Egyptian analogs but ACTUAL Ancient Egyptians transplanted Stargate style.
Which I always liked and found clever rather than weird.
It also means Ssass Tam should be voiced/played by Raimi Malek.
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
One of my players is an Indian American woman who basically asked, "Where in the Realms can someone who looks like me be from?"
I think this is a challenging question, but worthy of discussion. My thoughts on this could definitely use some alternative perspectives, as I come from a specific cultural heritage with all the unseen biases that entails.
As conceived by Ed, the Realms does NOT have real world analogs. In fact, if you look at the old gray box, there are no discussions of what humans look like. So the answer to her question probably should be "any where you want."
In the 2e Realms, various writers gradually (e.g. Tethens, Mulan) or deliberately (The Horde, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Al-Qadim) introduce some real world analogs to Earth cultures, so we have pseudo-Mongolia, pseudo-East Asia, pseudo-Mesoamerica, and pseudo-Arabia. However, that's clearly not an exhaustive list of Earth-like cultures and there's not a mapping for every ethnic group. While I never liked that aspect of TSR's stewardship, that was the choice of the company at the time.
In 3e, Tom's fantastic work on languages in Dragon magazine was consolidated down in the 3e FRCS into a smaller more manageable number. In so doing, the authors of the 3e FRCS did lose some of the richness he had worked out. Some of the work I contributed to in Races of Faerun ended up with a set of human ethnicities built off scattered 2e references (e.g. Tethens). Again, the total number was quite finite for space reasons, although you can see us hinting at far more. Some of those ethnicities clearly resembled Earth-analogs (e.g. Chultans, Illuskans) while others did not (e.g. Mulan, Sossrim, Tethens). This also effectively excluded a lot of potential "looks like me" analogs in the Realms, which is a significant weakness in my opinion.
If a player quite reasonably asks, "where can a character be from who looks like me?", the first question would be do you mean physically or culturally or both? Does she want to play a character who looks Indian or a character is from a pseudo-Indian fantasy analog or both?
My personal preference would be to de-emphasize cultural similarities to Earth analogs across the board, as they tend to be poorly conceived interpretations by Western authors without cultural anchors, but to be extremely inclusive in terms of appearance. In other words, if you want to play someone who "looks like you", I would make sure to make that possible in any part of the Realms. But I don't think an "Indian-looking character" necessarily needs to be from a Realms culture that is focused on rakshasa and yuan-ti and sticks out like a sore thumb in Waterdeep.
So, I hope that makes sense, and I welcome thoughts from those with other perspectives.
--Eric
Thanks for this response. Very informative and well-written. |
| deserk |
Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 21:19:32
It was interesting that Ed mentioned in a tweet that the Mar (the indigenous people of the Utter East) have gray skin and eye colours that range from gold to crimson. So there are human ethnicities in FR that quite literally have no parallel on Earth, not just on a cultural level, but physically as well. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 17:28:24
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
One of my players is an Indian American woman who basically asked, "Where in the Realms can someone who looks like me be from?"
I think this is a challenging question, but worthy of discussion. My thoughts on this could definitely use some alternative perspectives, as I come from a specific cultural heritage with all the unseen biases that entails.
As conceived by Ed, the Realms does NOT have real world analogs. In fact, if you look at the old gray box, there are no discussions of what humans look like. So the answer to her question probably should be "any where you want."
In the 2e Realms, various writers gradually (e.g. Tethens, Mulan) or deliberately (The Horde, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Al-Qadim) introduce some real world analogs to Earth cultures, so we have pseudo-Mongolia, pseudo-East Asia, pseudo-Mesoamerica, and pseudo-Arabia. However, that's clearly not an exhaustive list of Earth-like cultures and there's not a mapping for every ethnic group. While I never liked that aspect of TSR's stewardship, that was the choice of the company at the time.
In 3e, Tom's fantastic work on languages in Dragon magazine was consolidated down in the 3e FRCS into a smaller more manageable number. In so doing, the authors of the 3e FRCS did lose some of the richness he had worked out. Some of the work I contributed to in Races of Faerun ended up with a set of human ethnicities built off scattered 2e references (e.g. Tethens). Again, the total number was quite finite for space reasons, although you can see us hinting at far more. Some of those ethnicities clearly resembled Earth-analogs (e.g. Chultans, Illuskans) while others did not (e.g. Mulan, Sossrim, Tethens). This also effectively excluded a lot of potential "looks like me" analogs in the Realms, which is a significant weakness in my opinion.
If a player quite reasonably asks, "where can a character be from who looks like me?", the first question would be do you mean physically or culturally or both? Does she want to play a character who looks Indian or a character is from a pseudo-Indian fantasy analog or both?
My personal preference would be to de-emphasize cultural similarities to Earth analogs across the board, as they tend to be poorly conceived interpretations by Western authors without cultural anchors, but to be extremely inclusive in terms of appearance. In other words, if you want to play someone who "looks like you", I would make sure to make that possible in any part of the Realms. But I don't think an "Indian-looking character" necessarily needs to be from a Realms culture that is focused on rakshasa and yuan-ti and sticks out like a sore thumb in Waterdeep.
So, I hope that makes sense, and I welcome thoughts from those with other perspectives.
--Eric
|
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 14:19:36
https://www.tsrarchive.com/3o/Mahasarpa.pdf |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 12:15:22
quote:
You don't need bring FR stuff into an India-like setting. The subcontinent has a vast history, and a still-vibrant pantheon of oodles of Gods, Goddesses and their Demi's. And if you mix in the Middle-eastern mythology you gain the Djinn and their trove of magic.
I think it's more making the Realms more diverse by bringing India into FR.
One of my players is an Indian American woman who basically asked, "Where in the Realms can someone who looks like me be from?" |
| Gyor |
Posted - 05 Apr 2022 : 02:59:42
In Faerun the shining plains nations are EI inspired. In Kara Tur Koung Kingdom is Cambodian inspired, but in a period highly culturally influenced by India, with actual Hinduism being the religion of the Koung Kingdom. |
| Starrywits |
Posted - 04 Apr 2022 : 14:07:27
I love Random Riellor, lol. The chaotic neutral freak of Faerūn. If only he were a more predominant character in the realms.
To the OP, I don't think so. Or at least, it shouldn't go beyond mere inspiration.
One thing I wonder is, lots of (person) names in such fantasy stuff are actual human names from the South America, Africa, or some Eastern parts of the world. I figure some are coincidental, but some are intentional. |
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 04 Apr 2022 : 02:11:02
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
So Elaine Cunningham wrote a whole trilogy set in Halruaa and based on all previous descriptions, images, and those books, I see little to nothing that is reminiscent of mythological India. That said, you can do what you like of course.
The closest things to mythological India are found closer to northern Zakhara/Al-Qadim. Someone else pointed out that the Shining Lands with their beliefs in the Adama, heading further south you reach the Utter East which seems to have a different mythological India flavor, keep heading south into Zakhara proper and your get the Ruined Kingdoms, which have more India flavor and head east into the southern Jungles of Kara-Tur and there are several kingdoms that seem to have an Indian flavor. And all that said in the western part of those jungles several folks have placed the 3.5E Oriental Adventures web enhancement setting of Mahasarpa which is the most obvious mythological India flavored thing of all.
Thanks Thomas! I totally missed Mahasarpa. Do you know if James Wyatt is still doing games design? I think he developed the campaign supplement right?
And I'm going to have to reach out to Elaine Cunningham this week.
I haven't read her Counselors & Kings trilogy yet. It was published during a time when I wasn't doing much in the way of creative writing.
At any rate, my story is set in an alternate prime material plane than the current setting. Just think, "do overs". ;-)
Appreciate the chime in Thomas. PM me anytime sir.
Happy gaming!
H.H.H.
|
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 04 Apr 2022 : 01:35:10
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by HellixHarpell
While I would agree with that. Can I complain a bit here? The Netheril boxed set was a total disappointment w/re to artwork. It felt rushed. *There's backstory there that I won't get into.*
I just subbed the RW analogue as a combination of ancient Persia & India. Especially for those enclaves that floated in the south. Those of the North would have buildings that would be best suited to the colder weather.
Architecture and culture is very much affected by climate.
And even as I compose this Guy Fieri is visiting an Indian restaurant on the food network! Curry anyone?
H.H.H.
I share your disappointment with the Netheril boxed set. FYI, the Netherese arcanists magically forced the climate to be uniformly warm to support agriculture year round.
On the main topic, I would not bother at all trying to compare Halruua to any real-world land at any point in history. If you want to go outside the Realms, consider Hogwarts of the Harry Potter world as a starting point.
With Halruua having such a rich magic-using history, and being in the southern Realms I wanted to stay away from Medieval motifs as much as I could. Yes, I do agree tho that Hogwarts would be a good starting point. Just not in the Scottish castle style.
Some backstory...
Around 1989 I was DM to well over 30 people over a 7 year span.
The Netheril & Thay were big parts of that campaign. We went from 2nd edition well into edition 3.5 before we eventually split. I merged so many plotlines during that time. I brought the Netherese back before TSR did. But I did it in a much different way. The party members were the ones to inadvertently bring them back!
A player & DM from 1981 to 1983 were my introductory years into the game. Yeah, I'm an old guy. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 27 Mar 2022 : 22:13:03
So Elaine Cunningham wrote a whole trilogy set in Halruaa and based on all previous descriptions, images, and those books, I see little to nothing that is reminiscent of mythological India. That said, you can do what you like of course.
The closest things to mythological India are found closer to northern Zakhara/Al-Qadim. Someone else pointed out that the Shining Lands with their beliefs in the Adama, heading further south you reach the Utter East which seems to have a different mythological India flavor, keep heading south into Zakhara proper and your get the Ruined Kingdoms, which have more India flavor and head east into the southern Jungles of Kara-Tur and there are several kingdoms that seem to have an Indian flavor. And all that said in the western part of those jungles several folks have placed the 3.5E Oriental Adventures web enhancement setting of Mahasarpa which is the most obvious mythological India flavored thing of all. |
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 27 Mar 2022 : 17:28:16
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by HellixHarpell
While I would agree with that. Can I complain a bit here? The Netheril boxed set was a total disappointment w/re to artwork. It felt rushed. *There's backstory there that I won't get into.*
I just subbed the RW analogue as a combination of ancient Persia & India. Especially for those enclaves that floated in the south. Those of the North would have buildings that would be best suited to the colder weather.
Architecture and culture is very much affected by climate.
And even as I compose this Guy Fieri is visiting an Indian restaurant on the food network! Curry anyone?
H.H.H.
I share your disappointment with the Netheril boxed set. FYI, the Netherese arcanists magically forced the climate to be uniformly warm to support agriculture year round.
On the main topic, I would not bother at all trying to compare Halruua to any real-world land at any point in history. If you want to go outside the Realms, consider Hogwarts of the Harry Potter world as a starting point.
With Halruua having such a rich magic-using history, and being in the southern Realms I wanted to stay away from Medieval motifs as much as I could. Yes, I do agree tho that Hogwarts would be a good starting point. Just not in the Scottish castle style.
Some backstory...
Around 1989 I was DM to well over 30 people over a 7 year span.
The Netheril & Thay were big parts of that campaign. We went from 2nd edition well into edition 3.5 before we eventually split. I merged so many plotlines during that time. I brought the Netherese back before TSR did. But I did it in a much different way. The party members were the ones to inadvertently bring them back!
A player & DM from 1981 to 1983 were my introductory years into the game. Yeah, I'm an old guy. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 27 Mar 2022 : 08:47:49
quote:
Originally posted by HellixHarpell
While I would agree with that. Can I complain a bit here? The Netheril boxed set was a total disappointment w/re to artwork. It felt rushed. *There's backstory there that I won't get into.*
I just subbed the RW analogue as a combination of ancient Persia & India. Especially for those enclaves that floated in the south. Those of the North would have buildings that would be best suited to the colder weather.
Architecture and culture is very much affected by climate.
And even as I compose this Guy Fieri is visiting an Indian restaurant on the food network! Curry anyone?
H.H.H.
I share your disappointment with the Netheril boxed set. FYI, the Netherese arcanists magically forced the climate to be uniformly warm to support agriculture year round.
On the main topic, I would not bother at all trying to compare Halruua to any real-world land at any point in history. If you want to go outside the Realms, consider Hogwarts of the Harry Potter world as a starting point. |
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 27 Mar 2022 : 03:25:56
quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
Never thought of Halrua having a real-world analogue for inspiration. It's technically a successor-state/civilization of Netheril.
While I would agree with that. Can I complain a bit here? The Netheril boxed set was a total disappointment w/re to artwork. It felt rushed. *There's backstory there that I won't get into.*
I just subbed the RW analogue as a combination of ancient Persia & India. Especially for those enclaves that floated in the south. Those of the North would have buildings that would be best suited to the colder weather.
Architecture and culture is very much affected by climate.
And even as I compose this Guy Fieri is visiting an Indian restaurant on the food network! Curry anyone?
H.H.H. |
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 27 Mar 2022 : 03:18:56
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Al-Andalus is probably a better image to go for, since Halruaa was settled by Netherese refugees that mixed with local Tashalan tribes. So kind of a combination of West and East, or in this case, North and South.
The Shining Lands (Durpar, Var the Golden and Estagund) seems to have a lot of Indian motifs, with faith of Adama bearing similarities to Buddhism and Hinduism, but not overtly, I'd say. Also they have a few Sanskrit titles like Rajah and as well an Urdu one, namely Nawab.
I definitely agree with what the other posters have said, however I definitely see the value in drawing inspiration from RW places, since it can help you visualize the setting better, which is quite important for a DM, that they feel they get the right tone and flavour from what the sourcebooks describe. And ultimately I do think we all draw from RL influences undeniably. But there is a difference between being inspired by something, and copying something word for word. The published Realms have had a history with a lot of overt copy-pastes of RW places (Maztica, Hordelands, Kara-tur, etc.) which is why there are many Realms fans that have an aversion to any parallels with historical or RW countries, which I certainly sympathize with.
If I could UPVOTE a post it would be this one. Well-written sir.
I used architecture in my earlier posts. What better way to give the viewer a sense of the culture through visual storytelling than by showing them a pyramid (with a winged naked-breasted woman on top) that speaks ancient Sumeria or Egypt?
Sorry, I would be remiss if I didn't make at least one Game of Thrones reference.
H.H.H. |
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 27 Mar 2022 : 03:10:09
quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
You don't need bring FR stuff into an India-like setting. The subcontinent has a vast history, and a still-vibrant pantheon of oodles of Gods, Goddesses and their Demi's. And if you mix in the Middle-eastern mythology you gain the Djinn and their trove of magic.
Actually, it's a Forgotten Realms movie script that has a Halruaan mage. I was looking more for the Indian type of actor & adding elements of the culture of ancient India. Thus bringing those elements to FR.
Thanks for replying though. Appreciate your thoughts. |
| HellixHarpell |
Posted - 27 Mar 2022 : 03:05:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's a mistake to think of places in the Realms as being archetypes of real-world places.
There are sections of the Realms, away from the core Heartlands area, that were heavily influenced by real-world areas (especially Kara-Tur), but Halruaa isn't one of them.
Forgive me if I'm not formatting my reply very well. I'm used to MS Outlook. LOL
Thank you for taking the time to respond. It's appreciated.
All are hypotheticals. Let's keep that in mind please.
I will attempt to keep this discussion within the context of:
script writing, cinematics, visuals & overall story content.
Let's say I'm the executive producer. Nowadays known more as a
"show runner" for the sake of this discussion.
Why would it be a mistake to think of Unther. Mulhorand, etc as archetypes of ancient Eygpt? Or the culture of Halruaa having elements of ancient Indian architecture or dress? Why is it a mistake to think that as a movie producer the visuals I present to my audience (regardless of the region in Faerun) have elements of those ancient earth cultures?
And even for those real-world rip-offs that were crudely shoehorned into the setting, the translation of "real-world society without magic or verifiable proof of the divine" to a setting that has those things was not handled well.
Now you have my attention. You use terms like "rip-offs", "crudely shoehorned", "not handled well" etc. As if there's a bitterness there.
Can you expound on that? I'd like to know your thoughts.
If you're writing a script for a movie or series, and it's based on an IP held by WotC, you'd do well to contact them, first. They've not taken unsolicited material in a long time, and they've their own plans for bringing this stuff to the screen.
I'll take that under advisement. Thank you.
Do you know of any future plans, aside from the Chris Pine movie we've heard so much about? Will the new WoTC CEO Miss Williams be as interested in a Forgotten Realms movie as Chris Cocks was? Maybe! :-) It's all in the pitch Rupert.
If you want to write something based on a magical India, you'd be far better off building your own setting. And you'd need to keep in mind that having magic and active deities and such is going to change that society's history and culture. It's not going to be "the same as real-world X, but with magic!" because those differing elements are going to shape things in different ways.
There are enough fantasy genre movies made in India about magical India or ancient mythological India.
That's not the intent here. The intent is to base a character (using a particular nationality) in a fictional setting that contains elements of a real-world culture. I envision Halruaan culture having elements of ancient India. True, it is a mish-mash of different cultures.
Visually though it would be stunning to integrate the architecture of old India with say elements of ancient Persia.
I can tell you from experience the average movie-going-netflix-HBO-amazon watching audience craves new content. If you can give them a fantasy movie with a great story that's visually stunning they'll eat it up.
Have you ever flipped through the selection on Amazon? It's CHEAP content. Very cheap & people are watching it like that train wreck on Super 8.
To coin your terms: Crudely shoehorned rip-offs.
I'm trying to create something that the average viewer AND the staunch lover of the setting won't stop watching.
H.H.H. |
| Rymac |
Posted - 26 Mar 2022 : 21:46:40
Never thought of Halrua having a real-world analogue for inspiration. It's technically a successor-state/civilization of Netheril. |
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