| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 22 Mar 2022 : 05:59:26
When this group was introduced, I was curious if they ever followed up on the plot of the Harpers being split and also what they were going for. It seemed like a somewhat silly split for players and I didn't get the point for the larger story. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 14:29:01
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I respect your thoughts regarding what you think is a better story, but I think you misinterpret Khelben's motivation.
His decisions had nothing to do with the Harpers - although the Harpers made his decisions about them.
That's an interesting way of interpreting it since Khelben was being tried for stealing the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings (a WMD magical item that can ban the influence of gods from the realms) and giving it to Fzoul Chembryl. He basically stole a nuclear weapon and gave it to Saddam Hussein and somehow this "had nothing to do with the Harpers" given that it was in THEIR vaults.
You can argue it did good as it destroyed a Banelich and the artifact but the rise of Fzoul Chembyrl to power in the West is something that eventually lead to the resurrection of Bane and a new era of darkness for the Realms.
quote:
The Harpers were not the vehicle for the dangers that Khelben's researches showed him were looming and he couldn't exercise enough control over the organisation to make it ready too respond to the threat that he saw. So he broke away and formed his own organisation. He asked nothing of the Harpers in doing so, and recruits joined him of their own volition. It was the Harpers of Berdusk who couldn't countenance the breakaway and demanded justification and answers. In that regard, the Blackstaff owed them nothing because his plans and motivations going forward impacted on the Harpers not a whit. In the simplest terms, the Harpers reacted like a jilted lover and Khelben gave them short shrift. Their portrayal in C&D is true to form - the Harpers have been dysfunctional throughout their history and their lack of regimentation and a clear hierarchical leadership structure had been both a strength and a weakness at the higher echelons.
I'm going to have to pause a second because "their lack of regimentation and clear hierarchal leadership" is a weird statement to make because the organization exists to OPPOSE clear hierarchal and leadership. Khelben is also the one acting chaotically because he chooses to state the Harpers have no authority to judge his actions, pleads guilty, and then leaves saying, "YOU AINT THE BOSS OF ME!"
For a Lawful Neutral man, he has no respect for rules or order.
quote:
And as for it being a "spectacular disaster", the fates of the Moonstars and Rhymanthiin are inexorably intertwined in my book - and that story has not yet reached its conclusion. The Harpers? They continue, but they are a pale shadow of what they once were because they lack strong leadership. What would they now be if they had backed Khelben? An interesting question, to be sure.
The Harpers seem better off than ever. Like the Zhents. Maybe what they needed was getting away from the Chosen of Mystra's BS. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 14:14:09
I respect your thoughts regarding what you think is a better story, but I think you misinterpret Khelben's motivation.
His decisions had nothing to do with the Harpers - although the Harpers made his decisions about them.
The Harpers were not the vehicle for the dangers that Khelben's researches showed him were looming and he couldn't exercise enough control over the organisation to make it ready too respond to the threat that he saw. So he broke away and formed his own organisation. He asked nothing of the Harpers in doing so, and recruits joined him of their own volition. It was the Harpers of Berdusk who couldn't countenance the breakaway and demanded justification and answers. In that regard, the Blackstaff owed them nothing because his plans and motivations going forward impacted on the Harpers not a whit. In the simplest terms, the Harpers reacted like a jilted lover and Khelben gave them short shrift. Their portrayal in C&D is true to form - the Harpers have been dysfunctional throughout their history and their lack of regimentation and a clear hierarchical leadership structure had been both a strength and a weakness at the higher echelons.
And as for it being a "spectacular disaster", the fates of the Moonstars and Rhymanthiin are inexorably intertwined in my book - and that story has not yet reached its conclusion. The Harpers? They continue, but they are a pale shadow of what they once were because they lack strong leadership. What would they now be if they had backed Khelben? An interesting question, to be sure.
-- George Krashos |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 06:34:12
Honestly, it's probably not the most popular decision but I actually really like the idea the Moonstars crashed and burned under Khelben's leadership. Maybe it's resentment for CLOAK AND DAGGER's portrayal of Those Who Harp but I actually think there is some decent storytelling motifs behind the idea that Khelben believed that he 100% could do a better job leading his own team with none of the others and answerable only to himself only for it to be a spectacular disaster.
I admit part of this is just my longstanding association of the Forgotten Realms with comic books (and not just the DC ones by Jeff Grubb) but the idea of Khelben being Batman is something that has been a fandom decision for a long time.
And one of the things that Batman has as a failing is his belief he can go it alone and always knows better.
Which, of course, means it was a catastrophic mistake dividing the Harpers and choosing to believe he was better off as a dictator of the group. The fact the Chosen of Mystra backed him up, of course, just makes it worse.
I think it's a better story. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 06:06:09
In my book, Malchor Harpell would be a prime candidate for leading the Moonstars. He's ... special.
-- George Krashos |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 23:17:51
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Also, with Khelben dead, the Moonstars don't really have any actual rules or history to fall back on.
So, really, the Harpers ended up winning out the test of time on that. No, it turns out the Chosen AREN'T the central most important part of Those Who Harp. The Justice League WILL continue without Batman.
The Moonstars were doing just fine until many/most of them were slain in a battle at Stump Bog with the Dark Prefects - as alluded to in "Blackstaff Tower".
-- George Krashos
Which is not to say they were destroyed either… Just severely hampered, due to a need for a second membership drive within their first century (not unlike what's happened with the Harpers themselves, as I recall my Code of the Harpers histories).
The Moonstars yet exist, their members far more hidden than in C&D, and the current Blackstaff is still involved (as is the current Open Lord of Waterdeep) with them, if only to feed them lore and history they would not otherwise be privy to…
Who's the current de-facto leader of the Moonstars? Laeral should be, of course, but she's stepped aside (at least publicly) to avoid conflicts of interest with Waterdeep's needs. Who's she designated as her proxy? That's something I will have to ponder on awhile…
Steven
That could be fun to think about...
The first thought that pops in my head is Sememmon... a former Zhent who has reformed himself to some degree, but that may be too easy.
I like the idea of it being a redeemed "monster" or "typically portrayed as evil race"... but redeemed vampire, redeemed drow, redeemed fiend, etc... feel overdone.
In a similar vein.... a "fallen from grace" being could also very much fit this. I'll admit my second thoughts were Elaith Craulnober, but that might not fit either. Priam Agrivar also pops in my head, but I have to admit there that I never read much of the comics, so I'm not real sure what his character was like... I have them as PDF's, maybe I'll start reading them. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 22:36:58
Is it confirmed they were the threat he saw? I had always been going with the return of Bane and the idea that his helping Fzoul accidentally facilitated that. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 22:12:07
Interesting that Khelben sees the Prefects as destroying the world in some text.
He then creates the Moonstars, presumably to prevent that fate on the pretext that he feels the Harpers had failed in their original mission and were unable to combat this foe.
Then the Prefects destroy the Moonstars.
Perhaps what Khelben saw was the destruction of the Harpers, whom he always believed would or could save the world the people etc.
So in order to save the Harpers he deliberately causes a schism. Creates a rival organisation dedicated to destroying the Prefecta and in so doing makes them the target of the Prefects. Thus saving the Harpers.
He always was about doing the right thing by any means necessary. He created a sacrificial lamb to save the sacred cow. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 19:32:37
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Also, with Khelben dead, the Moonstars don't really have any actual rules or history to fall back on.
So, really, the Harpers ended up winning out the test of time on that. No, it turns out the Chosen AREN'T the central most important part of Those Who Harp. The Justice League WILL continue without Batman.
The Moonstars were doing just fine until many/most of them were slain in a battle at Stump Bog with the Dark Prefects - as alluded to in "Blackstaff Tower".
-- George Krashos
Which is not to say they were destroyed either… Just severely hampered, due to a need for a second membership drive within their first century (not unlike what's happened with the Harpers themselves, as I recall my Code of the Harpers histories).
The Moonstars yet exist, their members far more hidden than in C&D, and the current Blackstaff is still involved (as is the current Open Lord of Waterdeep) with them, if only to feed them lore and history they would not otherwise be privy to…
Who's the current de-facto leader of the Moonstars? Laeral should be, of course, but she's stepped aside (at least publicly) to avoid conflicts of interest with Waterdeep's needs. Who's she designated as her proxy? That's something I will have to ponder on awhile…
Steven |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 14:10:56
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Also, with Khelben dead, the Moonstars don't really have any actual rules or history to fall back on.
So, really, the Harpers ended up winning out the test of time on that. No, it turns out the Chosen AREN'T the central most important part of Those Who Harp. The Justice League WILL continue without Batman.
The Moonstars were doing just fine until many/most of them were slain in a battle at Stump Bog with the Dark Prefects - as alluded to in "Blackstaff Tower".
-- George Krashos |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 06:22:10
Also, I was curious about the Cult of the Dragon and some kind of Lich plot earlier.
I rediscovered the Harper King and the cult of the dragon and the harpers being off-plane and stuff. I knew there was something but don't know if those story beats were related at all to the schism. Probably not.
And yeah, 5e Harpers can get people excited. A secret agent community enables crazy patrons out of nowhere for faction-aligned player characters. The Teleportation Circle network in the north was great, because in 24 hours two player characters circuited the whole of the High Forest and got to meet an Archmage. I want to speak to the people who decided the Harper NPCs in some of the adventures, namely a certain LN archmage with a taste for extending their life. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 04:16:28
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
DM's Guild in about eight months: The Secret History of the Harpstar Wars: A module where you play as infuriated Harper radicals who get a copy of the published Realmslore from earth, and assume that even other dimensions are under the propaganda of the Blackstaff.
A suicide mission to take back the unity of the harpers by using Earth documents to infiltrate the Moonstars and destroy them. This mission, inevitably, fails horribly. Probably because of a Shadowstaff as a group patron who tries not to laugh as they lead the party on this "totally real chance to *snicker* overthrow the Blackstaff".
-checking-
I actually do think it's kind of funny how history took the whole Moonstar concept. The book did its absolute best to promote them as the "best of the best" and more of a Khelben-based group of badasses but 3rd Edition more or less ignored them as a relevant force because, of course, WOTC's publishers assumed the Harpers were much more iconic and had no interest in promoting the johnny come latelys.
The Shadovar and 4th Edition business also meant that it absolutely SUCKED to be Chosen of Mystra or their minions for the next century. Fzoul also moved from being the Chosen of Xvim to the Chosen of BANE and so his rise to power actually coincided with the resurrection of the Tyrant God. Very possibly because Fzoul eliminated all of his rivals thanks to Khelben helping him.
Also, with Khelben dead, the Moonstars don't really have any actual rules or history to fall back on.
So, really, the Harpers ended up winning out the test of time on that. No, it turns out the Chosen AREN'T the central most important part of Those Who Harp. The Justice League WILL continue without Batman. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 03:49:32
DM's Guild in about eight months: The Secret History of the Harpstar Wars: A module where you play as infuriated Harper radicals who get a copy of the published Realmslore from earth, and assume that even other dimensions are under the propaganda of the Blackstaff.
A suicide mission to take back the unity of the harpers by using Earth documents to infiltrate the Moonstars and destroy them. This mission, inevitably, fails horribly. Probably because of a Shadowstaff as a group patron who tries not to laugh as they lead the party on this "totally real chance to *snicker* overthrow the Blackstaff".
-checking- |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 03:34:53
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I think it felt like a ridiculous divide over nothing anyway ...
I was not over nothing, it was someone inside the Harpers finally exploding when confronted with the attitude of (some) of the Chosens of Mystra's of "we do whatever the f*** we want because we can, without explaining anything to anyone because OF COURSE we are the best and brightest, bow to us!"
Khelben was the main proponent of this attitude, Elminster and the Symbul (but she wasn't into the Harpers) came as close seconds. Laeral and Alustriel probably did the same BUT using a velvet glove and much diplomacy (so they could get away with it) while the other sisters appeared much more down-to-earth and relatable.
So it became a problem of accountability (for Khelben) and hypocrisy (for the entire organisation). Why do the Harpers butt heads with Vangerdahast (another control freak) but then allow Khelben to do the same things with their name on it? What about "policing your own" and all that bs mafia-like vaunted Code?
Mind you, I'm not saying Khelben is evil, what I'm saying is that his actions went directly at odds with the ethos and the style of the Harpers (as they are propaganded) so either the Harpers changed tune or he got out of them. For the sake of expediency and in the face of the mounting "inquisition" he choose the second option.
That's a very very interesting take. Not saying its wrong mind you. I definitely could see some in the harpers getting fed up with the Chosen having an attitude (at least SOME). Some might have very much questioned following the chosen after Laeral was affected by the Crown of Horns as well. So, Laeral and Khelben may have been "on the outs" of the organization, while people still favored other chosen like Storm (I mean, who gets mad at someone that chops wood in the nude). |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 02:44:49
I love all of that Dezmer. I wiki'd those terms and found the name Obslin Minstrelwish, who seems to be an enabler. It has been over a year since I last had Cloak & Dagger to flip through- it's an amazing book and one of the few places to find info on the mysterious outskirts of Westgate. I was looking through it to see if some certain legendary hills would be shown on the city map- they weren't. That map of criminal organization locations and spheres of influence was incredible, though. Just like the famous map of Dragon territory of the north. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 19:08:33
I pulled out my copy of CLOAK AND DAGGER and re-reread it for this thread. One of the things that's clear is the authors are 100% on the side of Khelben throughout this. The situation is told in a ridiculously biased and one-sided direction with the Chosen all on Khelben's side, Bran's side called a bunch of "witch hunters" looking for nonexistent treason, and the Moonstars meant to be a sexier more awesome version of the Harpers.
Basically the good guy version of the Shadovar in the sense that they're trying WAY TOO HARD to sell these guys to us. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 19:01:11
George and I played with some of the Scepter storyline here:
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/346895/Jergal-Lord-of-the-End-of-Everything |
| Demzer |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 18:44:22
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I think it felt like a ridiculous divide over nothing anyway ...
I was not over nothing, it was someone inside the Harpers finally exploding when confronted with the attitude of (some) of the Chosens of Mystra's of "we do whatever the f*** we want because we can, without explaining anything to anyone because OF COURSE we are the best and brightest, bow to us!"
Khelben was the main proponent of this attitude, Elminster and the Symbul (but she wasn't into the Harpers) came as close seconds. Laeral and Alustriel probably did the same BUT using a velvet glove and much diplomacy (so they could get away with it) while the other sisters appeared much more down-to-earth and relatable.
So it became a problem of accountability (for Khelben) and hypocrisy (for the entire organisation). Why do the Harpers butt heads with Vangerdahast (another control freak) but then allow Khelben to do the same things with their name on it? What about "policing your own" and all that bs mafia-like vaunted Code?
Mind you, I'm not saying Khelben is evil, what I'm saying is that his actions went directly at odds with the ethos and the style of the Harpers (as they are propaganded) so either the Harpers changed tune or he got out of them. For the sake of expediency and in the face of the mounting "inquisition" he choose the second option.
I really liked the shake-up, the only bit I disliked (very minor) was Sylune's ghost destroying Bran's pin, that struck me as just another "I'm a Chosen I do the f*** that I want" moment. Unless there was something more sinister in the "inquisition", beside "normal people" being fed up with the double standards that were evidently appearing in the organisation. Which leads me to:
quote:
originally posted by PattPlays
Am I crazy for remembering that this divide (and resulting confusion and finger pointing) was cooked up underground by some liches or cult of the dragon cell?
I don't think there was anything canon that said the Harpers of Twilight Hall were manipulated. But I personally always found the "disease" of Lady Cylyria Dragonbreast quite odd. So in my games I had the Harpers unknowingly get the attention of Shoon VII by recruiting the young and impressionable Cowled Wizard apprentice Zallanora Argentresses and it was Shoon VII setting the Harpers up: taking over Cylyria, hiding behind her "comatose state" to escape the scrutiny of the Chosens and fueling Bran's fire until the situation got out of control. This way, the Harpers on the Heartlands are completely absorbed with their current actions and dealing with the fallout of the schism (with the ongoing witch hunt) and can't pay attention to what Shoon VII was doing south of the Cloud Peaks. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 05:22:20
quote:
originally posted by PattPlays
Am I crazy for remembering that this divide (and resulting confusion and finger pointing) was cooked up underground by some liches or cult of the dragon cell? It smells like some kind of smear campaign against Khelben and that the harpers weren't taking power, but being taken. Maybe had the harper-schism divided their resources and personnel differently then things wound have worked out in favor of a puppet-harper faction that's been radicalized to "kill the superhero" to join the narrative. Which Batman movie has the villain threaten to turn the public, and the police, against him?
I think it felt like a ridiculous divide over nothing anyway since Khelben managed to destroy a scepter that had the potential to utterly unmake Faerun as we know it (The Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings able to permanently bar gods from exerting their influence in the Realm) as well as one of the Bane Liches.
The fact Fzoul Chembyrl also made it a point to not expand Eastward and only Westward (which was in the direction of Thay and the Simbul so good luck with that) was more a bonus for Waterdeep than anyone else.
There's no real downside here to getting evil to fight evil.
Except of course if you are very LAWFUL about these things, which the Harpers never have been. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 03:54:05
Am I crazy for remembering that this divide (and resulting confusion and finger pointing) was cooked up underground by some liches or cult of the dragon cell? It smells like some kind of smear campaign against Khelben and that the harpers weren't taking power, but being taken. Maybe had the harper-schism divided their resources and personnel differently then things wound have worked out in favor of a puppet-harper faction that's been radicalized to "kill the superhero" to join the narrative. Which Batman movie has the villain threaten to turn the public, and the police, against him? |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 23:16:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
It seems like Force Grey has replaced the Moonstars as well.
Which is a group that I feel sounds significantly less Realmsian.
They got renamed to the Gray Hands, IIRC. And the group predates the Moonstars.
I don't know that they could be considered a replacement, though, since they were all about Waterdeep, while the Moonstars weren't limited to any one area.
I stand corrected and I admit my impression of the Moonstars is just, "The Blackstaff's Minions" or, more charitably, "The Blackstaff's Special Ops Team."
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 22:31:25
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
It seems like Force Grey has replaced the Moonstars as well.
Which is a group that I feel sounds significantly less Realmsian.
They got renamed to the Gray Hands, IIRC. And the group predates the Moonstars.
I don't know that they could be considered a replacement, though, since they were all about Waterdeep, while the Moonstars weren't limited to any one area. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 21:46:31
It seems like Force Grey has replaced the Moonstars as well.
Which is a group that I feel sounds significantly less Realmsian. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 22:25:25
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
I LIKE the idea of the Harpers having a "Black OPs" faction/rival! Though I do think the mainstream Harpers already showed signs going outside-the-law.
That's a very good point by itself. Aren't the Harpers, by nature, an illegal organization? They're a non-government group of military partistans that are carrying out their own socio-political-religious agenda. Some governments support them, particularly the elves, but they'res a reason that Lawful types throw fits about them and paladins hate harpers.
There are plenty of reasons why established governments or kingdoms might dislike the Harpers - one of the stated goals of the Harpers is to ensure all kingdoms remain small, for example. They help ensure this by toppling thrones when they decide to, among other things, and can (and do sometimes) enforce their ideology by force (of which they frankly have quite a lot if they need to). Most nations, especially strongly lawful ones or strong, centrally-controlled ones, would usually object to a paramilitary organisation of that sort setting up shop in their borders.
In conjunction with this, the Harpers are widely spread across Faerun and plausibly beyond it while wielding a potentially vast intelligence gathering apparatus across the region, even operating in cells to ensure if one is compromised the entire organisation doesn’t topple (akin to a hydra, chop of one head and another grows). It’s not for no reason that some analogies to real life choose to style them as a fantasy version of the CIA, one that operates with minimal oversight from anybody and with occasionally endemic bouts of corruption in their ranks. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 21:09:34
quote:
The book line ended and Steven was no longer working for WotC
I take it the story wasn't done like Song and Swords?
quote:
The issue with paladins and Harpers isn't exclusive to that particular pairing. Paladins have a tendency to dislike anyone who isn't LG, which includes a lot of Harpers and non-Harpers alike. Part of that, though, is the tendency for paladins and other LG types to become Lawful Stupid instead of Lawful Good.
Yeah, I didn't much care for the Harper/Moonstar split because the Harpers were acting more like Paladins. Which is never how they've been characterized. Paladins are people who believe that you should never break the rules and always meet good with good. The Chosen of Mystra and Harpers always seemed like the people who were much more flexible about their ethics.
One of the things Ed Greenwood always beat in his write-ups of the Chosen was they'd ally with evil and manipulate events because they took the long run. Also, that good people didn't always achieve good because ends and means were not really related.
I love this description:
https://www.candlekeep.com/fr_faq.htm#_Toc16090539
Ed Greenwood: Part of my writing goals have been to underscore the following things: "do-gooders" often do more harm than good, for the best of motives (Elaine's also been playing with this one); 'good' to one party is not 'good' to another (the old saying, "for one man to gain freedom, another must lose it"); and the best meddlers are those who can see farthest, not the brute-force-right-now brigade (which is what most PC parties of necessity are, and therefore their punishments/reward are immediate).
One postscript I almost forgot: with Elminster in particular and all of the Chosen, Steven and I (at least) are delving into "how insane do you go from living so long with godly power and gods messing with your mind?" Everything El and the other Chosen do should be read in this light; they're NOT sane. I've been hinting at this for a long time, but you have to catch the hints (like the good/happy endings, this was a Code of Ethics thing, which is why we can't show villains poisoning, or succeeding, or telling you their detailed plans that someone in the real world might copy or claim as inspiration, etc.). |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 21:08:09
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Unfortunately, Steven Schend was not able to further this plotline and it more or less died on the vine.
Given I've been absent from the Realms for almost a decade, may I ask for some more detail on what happened?
The book line ended and Steven was no longer working for WotC. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 20:35:33
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
I LIKE the idea of the Harpers having a "Black OPs" faction/rival! Though I do think the mainstream Harpers already showed signs going outside-the-law.
That's a very good point by itself. Aren't the Harpers, by nature, an illegal organization? They're a non-government group of military partistans that are carrying out their own socio-political-religious agenda. Some governments support them, particularly the elves, but they'res a reason that Lawful types throw fits about them and paladins hate harpers.
The issue with paladins and Harpers isn't exclusive to that particular pairing. Paladins have a tendency to dislike anyone who isn't LG, which includes a lot of Harpers and non-Harpers alike. Part of that, though, is the tendency for paladins and other LG types to become Lawful Stupid instead of Lawful Good. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 19:03:26
quote:
I LIKE the idea of the Harpers having a "Black OPs" faction/rival! Though I do think the mainstream Harpers already showed signs going outside-the-law.
That's a very good point by itself. Aren't the Harpers, by nature, an illegal organization? They're a non-government group of military partistans that are carrying out their own socio-political-religious agenda. Some governments support them, particularly the elves, but they'res a reason that Lawful types throw fits about them and paladins hate harpers. |
| ElfBane |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 18:14:48
I LIKE the idea of the Harpers having a "Black OPs" faction/rival! Though I do think the mainstream Harpers already showed signs going outside-the-law. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 17:29:48
I disagree on both counts.
If it had been done in response to fan complaints, then other things would have been done, too -- like making the Zhents more effective, which has long been a far greater complaint than the Harpers being too good.
And in a setting riddled with factions, I fail to see how having a faction that's similar but not the same somehow undermines another. It's like saying the church of Helm undermines the church of Torm. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 16:36:59
quote:
Khelben was concerned about threats the Harpers weren't aware of, and he was working to counter them. He was pursuing a more long-term goal than what the Harpers were doing, and he was willing to be more morally flexible about it than the Harpers. The Harpers and the Moonstars had some overlapping goals, but I think the Moonstars would have let some of the Harper goals slide while pursuing bigger issues.
Well, that's the Watsonian answer. In-universe, it was created because Khelben is a dick and wanted to create his own version of the Outsiders to the Harper's Justice League. He's a crazy control freak and felt he could do better with a bunch of Harpers who answered directly to him versus any sort of council. He also got some gods to back him.
But the "its the fans who saw a problem" is why the AUTHORS decided to do this plot. I.e. A Doylist answer.
quote:
Plus, you get all of the opportunities that competing factions would present, with competition for goals and resources and even agents. It was a wonderful new set of role-playing potentials, unceremoniously kicked to the curb because someone else didn't like it -- the start of a trend that has become all too evident, of late.
Ehhh, I could also see an argument that the existence of the Moonstars undermines the Harpers actually. Because if you want to make it absolutely 100% clear the Harpers are NOT goodie-goodies, are NOT trustworthy, and are duplicitous schemers like Baldur's Gate goes with as well as Thornhold then the Moonstars doesn't make any sense.
It's a schism that relies on a characterization that isn't true.
Basically, for the story to make sense, the Harpers have to be the kind of organization that would object to Khelben's realpolitc. |
|
|
