| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Mar 2022 : 21:15:23
So, randomly started looking at the Al-Qadim books and i'm musing over a few issues.
So in the Ruined Kingdoms, over 1000 years ago, a nation known as Kadar was founded. Ruled by a council of Geomancers (specialists in earth magic who marry wizard and priestly magic).
At least one of the cities in the Ruined Kingdoms is called the City of Spires and is home to tall metal towers (Rasilith being the city of Alabaster Tower, and Helbrester the City of Spires).
Interestingly enough one of the adventures in the Ruined Kingdoms is called Kismet, which in our language means Fate.
Now there was a settlement in Netheril, (very poorly) named Kismet. Situated almost on top of the capital of Thaeravel (Rasilith).
Tyche's title was also Kismet.
Could be a total coincidence but we already know of a connection between the lands of Netheril and the lands of Zakhara. The Bedine came to Anauroch from Zakhara, clearly a desert tribe, and the desert tribes of Zakhara come from the High Desert, or the Haunted Lands (which is adjacent to the RUined Kingdoms. If i recall correctly, the Bedine arrived somewhere near the Saiyaddar, which is around the region of Rasilith / Kismet.
So what if the Bedine arrived through a portal of some kind and that portal was two way and had been activated at least once before.
The enclave of Synod was a specialist in wizard and priest magic i believe and it fell over the Stonelands, but was at a low altitude so was not destroyed. Could its arcanist rulers have triggered magic that whirled them to Zakhara.
Could Kadar be a successor state of Netheril. It would also explain how the worship of Selan (clearly Selune) exists in Zakhara and is not considered an interloper god (unlike that of Helm). |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Apr 2023 : 19:19:43
It was described in brief, they travelled 3 days south from the last village on the steppes (which Sunbright always used to refer to his ancestral homeland). Read as written, you could conclude that the Iron Mountains are south of the southern borders of Netheril.
Nothing however excludes a portal and them travelling to the shining south. Even the dwarves originating in the Rampant Peaks before travelling to the Iron Mountains could have involved a portal. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 10 Apr 2023 : 16:48:38
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Are you suggesting that the mountains sunbright travelled to was in durpar where he met the dwarves and not somewhere near netheril (I was thinking the northern range of cormyr).
If so, is there anything that led to this conclusion other than the presence of yak men.
The yikaria could reach Netheril via the same portal as the Bedine, which was my previous assumption.
Barren Mts on the West of Netheril(Eastern part of "modern" Neher Mts), Gods’ Legion mts on the East ("modern" Desertmouth mts), and for that matter Rampant Peaks (which are not the same as Gods’ Legion, but "modern" Dragon Back Mountains) are all described in Netheril box and marked on the map.
"Iron Mountains" are not, and supposed to be somewhere to the South. The only canon reference (Shining South), however flimsy, is for Galuil Mountains. Though of course the name is mighty generic. Yikaria over there is more of supporting evidence.
Was his journey back and forth described? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Apr 2023 : 07:17:14
Are you suggesting that the mountains sunbright travelled to was in durpar where he met the dwarves and not somewhere near netheril (I was thinking the northern range of cormyr).
If so, is there anything that led to this conclusion other than the presence of yak men.
I had originally thought that yakmen was a misnomer and they actually meant minotaurs. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 10 Apr 2023 : 05:25:13
More on the yikaria:
Novel Lore > the dwarves in Galuil Mountains fight against a relatively new yikaria colony, apparently for territory. So, correction: while in the Netheril trilogy, that was not around Netheril, but Eastward of Durpar. Those yikaria could arrive from Zakhara by sea.
Ed Greenwood on Twitter > The yikaria mining outpost - village on Mount Hamarhaast.
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 30 Jan 2023 : 10:51:22
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I'm not certain if the portal between anauroch and zakhara is 2 way. If it was one way then there is no need to fear phaerimm encroachment. Although that would spoil further storytelling potential.
The problem is not direct phaerimm encroachment to another continent... at least while the Sharn Wall is intact.
The problem is phaerimm having access to the yikaria.
At which point all they need is to interrogate one, then send back enthralled (under illusion of freedom) to bring more yikaria, not an insurmountable challenge for them. If nothing else, the obvious (if crude) solution of scrying + teleport would do, they just need a good tale so that it does not look too suspicious ("I duped some greedy humans who want trinkets from Zakhara and don't know about our methods yet" would be enough); even if their own magic is blocked, a charmed wizard could do it.
quote:
I have been musing about a sarrukh presence or yuan ti presence in Zakhara. We have yuan-ti in Zakhara for sure and quite a lot is focused on the Ruined Kingdoms. One could assume that this once dominated more of Zakhara, but has long since been buried since serpentkind do not fare well in deserts.
The yuan-ti (whether Zakharan or Faerunian) could have some outposts there back in pre-Netheril era, then mostly just scry on the place from outside to keep an eye on those dangerous wizards, and once Netheril fell, proceed to loot.
quote:
The options for serpentking in Zakhara come in two possible scenarios.
...
Or they could be from Western Faerun, scouting the place for things of interest like the asabis and/or treasure.
Either way, the local top dogs are definitely the phaerimm. Their reaction would be to either keep the interlopers out (have all who come eventually disappear or get killed by "random" monsters) or subvert to have more agents on the outside. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Oct 2022 : 06:36:38
Linking the geomancers of the ruined kingdoms to the Utter East makes sense geographically i'll have to see what i can find in the source material, because i'm pretty sure it says the rulers were all imprisoned (except for the one in the adventure).
The "born of the Yehimals" seems an obvious one to me - a dwarf, their entire race was literally born of the Yehimals, and no one is more of a stone master than a dwarf.
I think i need to start pulling together this timeline from the stray hints and tips throughout the sourcebooks. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Oct 2022 : 23:33:57
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Does anyone have an answer as to when (in Dalereckoning) the Al-Qadim sourcebooks are written.
Assumption is 1367 DR, but i can't find anything that ties it definitively to one date or another.
The reason i ask is that there are a few oddities in the Land of Fate boxed set - some quotes say the First Grand Caliph was 500 years ago, others that it was 600 years ago, and yet the date in GHoTR for 657 DR regarding the Grand Caliph helping the Kingdoms of the Utter East mean that neither can be true if the sourcebook is written with 1367 DR as the modern date.
Now i did find another date linking Faerun and Zakhara, 1099 DR being the date of first modern contact with Zakhara and new trade routes forged. In the City of Delights it details what each Grand Caliph did and the 14th Grand Caliph opened trade with lands beyond Zakhara.
Now 250 years is a bit much for just 4 Grand Caliphs to server since 1099 DR, even if they did have a bit of half elf blood. But what if the Al-Qadim sourcebooks actually approximate to 1267 DR (not 1367 DR). That would mean the dating of 657 as 600 years ago works and 150 years for 4 rulers with a bit of half elven blood is doable.
Any thoughts?
First, damn good find in City of Delights. Bravo.
Regarding the mention of 1099 DR... there's a couple options actually for which Caliph that is in that the fifth established new trade routes.... but it does make more sense for it to be the 14th... so that the 8th or 9th ruled during times of Great Natural Disasters being related to possibly the Scouring of the Utter East.
One thing I saw that was kind of interesting was that in the section for 657 DR, it calls it "The Year of Nine Stars". Then in the beginning of ruined kingdoms we have an adventure called nine falling stars, and it says
Should the gates of Tadabbur be opened, nine-fold stars will rain from the sky to signal Her return. When wheel meets wheel, the past becomes clear and the future open.
Then to note, her geomancer council is "the Nine Council". So, maybe the nine falling stars were the geomancers doing SOMETHING that attracted meteors (rocks) and sent them crashing into Zakhara (you were saying earlier that there's several notes of things crashing into Zakhara). Later, when Tisan is freed again, perhaps it triggers something and enacts a lesser effect of the spell.
What if we tried to link the geomancers and the events of blood and magic and the city of Langdarma.
They have bloodforges, which created basal golems.... a stone like golem. So, perhaps these bloodforges are geomancer creations.
There's a lot of fiends, which the geomancers were known to summon.
There's the "Circle of Order" which are these immortal beings with ties to certain elements and the "Serene Ones" mentioned in Langdarma. At least one of the Serene Ones was "born from the Yehimals".... so basically born of the elements.
One of the "Circle of Order" embraced chaos and was imprisoned beneath a part of the Utter East known as the realm of fire ruled by "the Lord of Fire"... an area of lava and volcanos (one could say fiery earth).
He was Tartaryon and nicknamed himself "The Lord of Chaos".
The people of Langdarma are watched over by an angel servitor of the Serene Ones, but maybe Langdarma is one of the "lands" that the circle of order controlled (i.e. the "realm of lands"/"realm of fire"/"realm of tides").
So, maybe the geomancers, an evil group of mage-priests of Grumbar had some kind of "want" to gain the power or secrets of the Serene Ones. Maybe they freed Tartaryon (maybe through smashing some seals with falling meteors), and they brought him bloodforges, and helped him wage war on the neighbors of Nog and Kadar as well as the Serene Ones. Then the Grand Caliph realized they'd be turning their eyes in his direction next and he sent his armies in and they scoured the region killing friend and foe alike.
Probably some portions of that that would need some work, but since the two regions are so near to one another, treating them as separate entities seems wrong. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 06 Oct 2022 : 19:53:26
Double checked and triple checked GHoTR just now and the only two historic dates in GHoTR relating to Al-Qadim that i can find are 657 DR with the Grand Caliph invading the Utter East, and 1099 DR with the new opening of trade between Zakhara and the outside world.
657 is tied to the first grand caliph and is 700 years ago when it should be 600 (or 500 depending upon the source).
1099 is tied to the 14th Grand Caliph (there are 18 in total - or 14 depending upon the source). 250 years is a bit much for 4 people.
Again the obvious fix would be to date the Al-Qadim setting to 1267 DR rather than 1367 DR. I know of no other dates or lore that link Zakhara and the rest of Toril that might contradict this fix. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 06 Oct 2022 : 16:37:07
Already checked the major one being 657 DR. It appears to be set in the time of the first grand caliph. Unfortunately its 100 years too earlier as the first grand caliph was aid to be around 600 years ago and 657 dr is 700 years ago.
Hence why I was suggesting the al qadim sourcebooks be set in 1267 dr. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Oct 2022 : 15:49:38
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Can't look now, but didnt' Grand History attempt to date some of the Al-Qadim material?
I know it tried to tie some of the lore of the Utter East from the video game blood & magic and put ties to Zakhara. I don't know though if those dates can be directly correlated to specific lore / names in Al-Qadim books. In fact, I'd bet it can't, but may be worth checking. There's probably some other pieces though. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 06 Oct 2022 : 15:12:41
Can't look now, but didnt' Grand History attempt to date some of the Al-Qadim material?
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Oct 2022 : 16:00:04
Regarding yuan-ti ... I believe we can also trace them into Kara-Tur as well (specifically the Malatran plateau and the Histaachi yuan-ti are specifically in the Kara-tur appendix). We also know that the sarrukh were in the area beneath Thaymount and who knows how far out from there. It is also of interest to note that Kara-tur also had Hannya (a "hag" but also known as a outcast human female wu jen or shukenja that transformed themselves to be serpentine that is specifically noted as knowing the yuan-ti language and to work with yuan-ti) and that there were lamia nobles in the old empires region that had serpentine lower bodies.
Dragon 151 also hints to the yuan-ti in Kara-Tur as it has a section on "into the Eastern Realms" and one of the articles is the first ecology of the yuan-ti. The story of this varies a little from the one for Mhairshaulk, because it came out much earlier mind you... but it may just be that the sarrukh developed their yuan-ti based on knowledge gained from a sarrukh colony as far away as Kara-tur that isn't documented well or even from humans in Kara-tur)
So, I can basically see the yuan-ti coming from Kara-tur(malatra) and going to Zakhara. Now where the yuan-ti came from in malatra... that one can be a good question, but I'll say I would not be surprised if there were a portal between the regions.
There are also "katanga" in malatra which are humans who can transform into certain animals ... one of which is snakes. Essentially, these are hengeyokai with different animal forms and a "biped" form. The snake katanga are noted as worshipping the snake mother of the yuan-ti and "The Great Serpent that Swallows the World".
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Oct 2022 : 14:20:06
I'll check out Dragon 250
I'm not certain if the portal between anauroch and zakhara is 2 way. If it was one way then there is no need to fear phaerimm encroachment. Although that would spoil further storytelling potential.
I have been musing about a sarrukh presence or yuan ti presence in Zakhara. We have yuan-ti in Zakhara for sure and quite a lot is focused on the Ruined Kingdoms. One could assume that this once dominated more of Zakhara, but has long since been buried since serpentkind do not fare well in deserts.
The options for serpentking in Zakhara come in two possible scenarios.
The first (and least likely i think), is that the migration out of Okoth did not only go towards Mhairshaulk, but a group also went south into Zakhara. This migration was wiped out either by giants or by climate change from the tearfall.
I dont think this migration is correct because Yuan-Ti were created in Mhairshaulk and it seems foolish to have them also be created in Zakhara. Also there is no evidence of sarrukh in Zakhara (only Yuan-Ti and other lesser serpentkind) who could potentially hold their own against a giant empire.
So the second scenario is a that Yuan-Ti migrated from Mhairshaulk after the fall of that empire. THere were plenty of struggles between the yuan-ti and humans and so is not inconceivable that they moved south and set themselves up in the jungles of the eastern half of Zakhara, eventually migrating to the Ruined Kingdom part when desertification claimed most of the jungle.
A third and outlying scenario, is that the yuan-ti moved to Zakhara when the continents were all joined together. Now this landmass was broken apart by the elven sundering and it stretched backwards and forwards in time, but that doesnt mean the effects were clean. For instance we have elves in Maztica that almost certainly didnt migrate there in modern times and were likely living there before the continents were separated.
So Yuan-Ti and Mhairshaulk perhaps occupied more than just Chult, stretching a bit into Zakhara. Then the sundering separated the continents and they develop in isolation from a migration that could never have occurred (temporally speaking).
Weird to get your head around but i reckon this happened a lot with the Sundering (things couldnt happen because history was changed but they had already happened so the aftereffects remained in the geographic location.) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 04 Oct 2022 : 13:52:58
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
So, randomly started looking at the Al-Qadim books and i'm musing over a few issues.
So in the Ruined Kingdoms, over 1000 years ago, a nation known as Kadar was founded. Ruled by a council of Geomancers (specialists in earth magic who marry wizard and priestly magic).
As an extra source: Dragon #250 has Magic of Geomancers (by Paul Fraser) under Arcane Lore.
quote:
Could be a total coincidence but we already know of a connection between the lands of Netheril and the lands of Zakhara. The Bedine came to Anauroch from Zakhara, clearly a desert tribe, and the desert tribes of Zakhara come from the High Desert, or the Haunted Lands (which is adjacent to the RUined Kingdoms. If i recall correctly, the Bedine arrived somewhere near the Saiyaddar, which is around the region of Rasilith / Kismet.
So what if the Bedine arrived through a portal of some kind and that portal was two way and had been activated at least once before.
The enclave of Synod was a specialist in wizard and priest magic i believe and it fell over the Stonelands, but was at a low altitude so was not destroyed. Could its arcanist rulers have triggered magic that whirled them to Zakhara.
Could Kadar be a successor state of Netheril. It would also explain how the worship of Selan (clearly Selune) exists in Zakhara and is not considered an interloper god (unlike that of Helm).
See also spells from Anauroch and Al-Qadim sources.
There's also the question of asabi, who had to migrate to Anauroch from somewhere else after it became a desert, and apparently there was a mention of the yikaria in Mortal Consequences (these novels were set in Netheril time).
So yes. Way too much for coincidences. The Bedine definitely came from Zakhara (and then mixed with the local survivors, of course).
This also creates a niche for an interesting meta-plot.
Some folk from Faerun who know about both Netheril and Zakhara are likely to eventually tumble onto this as well. From which point on, there's likely to be an intercontinental secret society dedicated to very carefully keeping the phaerimm and their influence from spilling into Zakhara. I mean, the phaerimm took over a beholder city. "What could they do with yikaria - and through them, dao? Let's not find out!" is an entirely sensible reaction to this.
If that's actually a serious threat (depends on whether that portal still exists, and if yes also on where exactly it's located before the Sharn Wall was breached, but either way after that), it's probably run by the Chosen at least partially. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Oct 2022 : 17:04:12
Hey, not really "ruined kingdoms" specific.... but in the idea of things being unusual here and worth consideration is the story that there are no dragons here because of their conflict with the genies. Not really sure what to do with that, but it might be interesting if there were something here that actually makes dragons stay away besides fear of genies (maybe a material... maybe a spell cast by genies or primordials, etc.... or maybe even a sleeping primordial who would want vengeance on any dragon that comes here. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Oct 2022 : 16:28:33
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Well at the moment i'm more interested in mapping the timeline of Zakhara, but it would help to know when the asteroid strikes occurred.
I'm not sure i would say the meteor strikes occurred without any of the expected after effects.
The Tearfall had its effect largely muted by magic so as to keep Toril in existence (presumably twinning the planet halved the energy of the strike), and i'm sure i read that the climate was changed sufficiently enough to effectively wipe out the batrachi.
The strike in Zakhara ended the empire of the giants in Zakhara and drove the humans into the hills (mountains). I think its feasible to expect an alteration of the climate locally if not elsewhere. The sudden sinking of the southern half of Zakhara (which looking at the number of islands in the crowded sea could have been quite mountainous) which might have acted as a wind break of sorts.
In south america there is a dry highland desert created by mountains on either side which block the winds. So if we imagine the wind from Faerun sweeping down (which will be hot after passing over Calimshan and the Lake of Steam), and a cold wind from the south sweeping up, it is possible that the mountains blocked the two weather fronts from meeting. With those mountains now gone, the newly exposed west half bears the brunt of this hot air and it meets the cold air over the east half which leads to lots of rains and jungles in the east.
Of course Ur the Kraken then dries out the jungles in the east and it becomes a desert which causes the weather fronts to move and now meet further east over the oceans.
Just a thought
Well, maybe "any" should be "heavily lessened"... we don't see huge global impacts that affects life all over the planet is all I was getting at. But, we see things that we've variously wondered about here like the starmounts in the High Forest, what looks like a massive impact that created the mountains around Netheril and its bay. There was some discussion about the moonsea region. At one point we had a thread that had tracked about a half dozen of them, but I don't recall this one amongst them. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Oct 2022 : 19:01:29
Well at the moment i'm more interested in mapping the timeline of Zakhara, but it would help to know when the asteroid strikes occurred.
I'm not sure i would say the meteor strikes occurred without any of the expected after effects.
The Tearfall had its effect largely muted by magic so as to keep Toril in existence (presumably twinning the planet halved the energy of the strike), and i'm sure i read that the climate was changed sufficiently enough to effectively wipe out the batrachi.
The strike in Zakhara ended the empire of the giants in Zakhara and drove the humans into the hills (mountains). I think its feasible to expect an alteration of the climate locally if not elsewhere. The sudden sinking of the southern half of Zakhara (which looking at the number of islands in the crowded sea could have been quite mountainous) which might have acted as a wind break of sorts.
In south america there is a dry highland desert created by mountains on either side which block the winds. So if we imagine the wind from Faerun sweeping down (which will be hot after passing over Calimshan and the Lake of Steam), and a cold wind from the south sweeping up, it is possible that the mountains blocked the two weather fronts from meeting. With those mountains now gone, the newly exposed west half bears the brunt of this hot air and it meets the cold air over the east half which leads to lots of rains and jungles in the east.
Of course Ur the Kraken then dries out the jungles in the east and it becomes a desert which causes the weather fronts to move and now meet further east over the oceans.
Just a thought |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Oct 2022 : 20:42:04
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Randomly looking at this again, i have found no less than 3 passages hinting that a meteor struck Zakhara long ago.
One of them even says an arrogant giant was punished by the gods who sent a moon sized boulder into the High Desert (then an ocean) and created the Pit of Ghuls (and presumably the High Desert).
There is another passage about gods and genies fighting over something until the sky filled with fire.
Then there is a gigantic magnetic lodestone at the bottom of the Crowded Sea.
Thats good enough for me to conclude that long, long ago a meteor struck Zakhara. I'm going to tie it into the Titans of Toril and use that as the explanation for why they are no longer around (rather than that event playing out in Faerun). If the Winter Palace of Ostoria is in Hartsvale, why not have the Summer Palace in Zakhara. The giants of Ostoria had Qorrashi genies serving them up north so why not a connection with Zakhara.
The titans ruled over the genies and other giants. At some point the genies rebel. A big meteor strikes Zakhara and creates the High Desert and the Crowded Sea (i'm willing to bet it shattered the tectonic plate Zakhara sits on and caused the High Desert part to rise above the water level, while the Crowded Sea part sinks below it.
The titan and giant empire is ended and the titans all perish (perhaps their palace was directly in the Crowded Sea). In fact the Summer Palace of Uruk is very aptly named and sits in the Crowded Sea.
Yeah, I would really like to one day sit down and try to map out all of these type of hidden collisions. Toril seems to have a large number of them without the resulting issues we had in our world that killed the dinosaurs. I know we've discussed a lot of them here at one time or another. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 30 Sep 2022 : 08:53:40
Does anyone have an answer as to when (in Dalereckoning) the Al-Qadim sourcebooks are written.
Assumption is 1367 DR, but i can't find anything that ties it definitively to one date or another.
The reason i ask is that there are a few oddities in the Land of Fate boxed set - some quotes say the First Grand Caliph was 500 years ago, others that it was 600 years ago, and yet the date in GHoTR for 657 DR regarding the Grand Caliph helping the Kingdoms of the Utter East mean that neither can be true if the sourcebook is written with 1367 DR as the modern date.
Now i did find another date linking Faerun and Zakhara, 1099 DR being the date of first modern contact with Zakhara and new trade routes forged. In the City of Delights it details what each Grand Caliph did and the 14th Grand Caliph opened trade with lands beyond Zakhara.
Now 250 years is a bit much for just 4 Grand Caliphs to server since 1099 DR, even if they did have a bit of half elf blood. But what if the Al-Qadim sourcebooks actually approximate to 1267 DR (not 1367 DR). That would mean the dating of 657 as 600 years ago works and 150 years for 4 rulers with a bit of half elven blood is doable.
Any thoughts? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 29 Sep 2022 : 21:56:47
Randomly looking at this again, i have found no less than 3 passages hinting that a meteor struck Zakhara long ago.
One of them even says an arrogant giant was punished by the gods who sent a moon sized boulder into the High Desert (then an ocean) and created the Pit of Ghuls (and presumably the High Desert).
There is another passage about gods and genies fighting over something until the sky filled with fire.
Then there is a gigantic magnetic lodestone at the bottom of the Crowded Sea.
Thats good enough for me to conclude that long, long ago a meteor struck Zakhara. I'm going to tie it into the Titans of Toril and use that as the explanation for why they are no longer around (rather than that event playing out in Faerun). If the Winter Palace of Ostoria is in Hartsvale, why not have the Summer Palace in Zakhara. The giants of Ostoria had Qorrashi genies serving them up north so why not a connection with Zakhara.
The titans ruled over the genies and other giants. At some point the genies rebel. A big meteor strikes Zakhara and creates the High Desert and the Crowded Sea (i'm willing to bet it shattered the tectonic plate Zakhara sits on and caused the High Desert part to rise above the water level, while the Crowded Sea part sinks below it.
The titan and giant empire is ended and the titans all perish (perhaps their palace was directly in the Crowded Sea). In fact the Summer Palace of Uruk is very aptly named and sits in the Crowded Sea.
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 25 Mar 2022 : 11:52:13
I like all the little tales in each chapter of the various books.
I'm trying to rationalise the myth and bring them together into a complete whole.
The first tale about the Maiden of Beauty. Some beautiful woman tricks the gods and genies and they leave Zakhara. Typical arabian tale about tricking the gods, but has some interesting bits in it that could be the root truth.
The gods ruled over humans and rivalled the genies. They both desired something precious (a mortal woman seems like a myth corruption to me). They fight over this thing and a crucial passage says "The sky fully opened and let fall the rain, and the ground erupted with great gouts of fire".
This sounds like a huge catastrophe and there are numerous hints in the sourcebooks of a falling star that crashed into the water and splashed it on the land and drowned everyone.
So genies and giants fought over something, falling star destroys the land and kills them.
There are also passages about some humans fleeing to the hills to become the hill tribes. Seems plausible enough, those that fled the giant and genie fight into the mountains of the north and east survived the meteor strike and the floods.
Then the gods chose 10 people each and they became the faithful. This small number says to me that a few of the humans living with the gods survived (but not many).
One other crucial thing is that this tale speaks of gods and mentions them sailing the sea, and leaving on boats after the catastrophe, but other myths speak of giants and genies fighting. Now the giants didnt leave or all die, but we also have the Faerunian tale of titans following a falling star and leaving forever. So what if the gods were titans (who created giants) and they all perished, but the giants (their children) survived.
The next tale, about the Boy and the Genie, details the first Sha'ir and found the Ruby of Yalsur, an enormous ruby that the genies greatly desire. If Yarsul is a female name then perhaps this enormous ruby is what the titan and genies fought over and time corrupts Yarsul into a maiden of great beauty.
The First Sha'ir was Jafar el-Samal (Book of Artifacts) and also created the Seal of Jafar el-Samal which allowed him to control all genies. The tale has the first Sha'ir learn from the genies in return for the ruby, but it seems more likely that Jafar used this ruby in his crafting of the Seal of Jafar and that bound the genies to his will. The seal was later stolen by the genies and hidden, and given that the ruby was cut in half it is possible the seal was broken into pieces (maybe the Yakmen found a piece).
So perhaps the Maiden of Beauty is a mythical corruption of the ruby of Yalsur, must be a very special ruby. The Beauty of the Maiden tale mentions the hill tribes retreating to the Heart of the World, but perhaps they took the ruby and it is the ruby that is the Heart of the World. Each of the other continents has a mountain godlike being that represents the heart of that land (Bhalla, Maztica, Othea, the Earthmother), perhaps Fate is this mountainous being of the land and perhaps the rub of Yalsur is a source of power, can create life, allowed the creation of the giants, and the variety of life found in Zakhara.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 24 Mar 2022 : 07:59:14
I think the Crowded Sea was formed from a massive meteor strike, not unlike the Sea of Fallen Stars.
THere is a story in one of the sourcebooks (havent looked at it in detail yet) that talks about a falling star that destroyed ancient empires.
Now in Golden Voyages i find out that at the bottom of the Ocean (referring to the Crowded Sea), there is a huge deposit of magnetic lodestone which pulls the nails out of passing ships near the Steaming Isles (where the sea floor is only 400 ft below).
Now i know lodestone is just magnetite, and magnetite is naturally occurring. But it is not always a magnet itself and it is unknown how it becomes magnetic (one theory is lightning strikes), but these deposits are not large, certainly not large enough to exert a field over 400 ft away.
Magnetic magnetite has been found to exist in meteors, so i'm thinking big meteor hit the Crowded Sea, smashed the continental plate, caused the plateaus of the High Desert and the Haunted Lands to suddenly appear because part of the plate was thrust upwards, and the remaining pulverised landmass formed the islands of the Crowded Sea we see today.
Also links into the legend of titans disappearing, the ones who followed the falling star. Meaning the giants in Zakhara are a remnant of Annam's brood, possibly the descendants of Lanaxis, and their empire was destroyed by the falling stars, causing them to flee to elsewhere. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 24 Mar 2022 : 07:43:45
Moved onto the Golden Voyages adventure. It would seem that the Enlightened Empire was not created as peacefully as it seems.
The Pact of the Sword is what was offered to the unbelievers. I think roughly it goes along the lines of - join us and you have the benefit of our swords, resist and be defeated and exiled.
Also noted the Golden Coin of Jisan the Bountiful in the book of artifacts, which bestows riches, harvests, children, etc upon those who do good for others. Those that joined the Enlightened Empire first were also blessed with similar boons.
The Golden Coin has a curse, if you do deeds for reward or are covetous, then your hunger becomes magnified many times over. I suspect the First Grand Caliph found the Golden Coin and in the beginning his people prospered, but as time passed and he became more corrupted by power his lust for power became ever greater and thus the Pact of the Sword was born. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 19:03:15
The book of artifacts details the Seal of Jafar al-Samal. With it Jafar the Incomparable, the first sha-ir, was able to control any and all genies.
I'm thinking this is the key to why there are so many servitor genies in Zakhara, and how the sha'ir form pacts with the genies.
Yes the Seal was lost (likely stolen and hidden by the genies), but its power can still be invoked by those who follow the teachings of the first sha'ir. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 17:11:27
Yeah, a lot of folks have put forth a genie pact variant of warlock on DM's Guild. It is a much better fit than wizard. Mechanics wise, I can't say that there's been any one that really captures the concept of the original (which could get ANY spell off any spellcaster's list), but maybe if there's a 5e version of the old anyspell and greater anyspell (think that was the names) then that might be a way to go. I personally like the idea of making a variant of the 5e arcane trickster that uses pact magic instead of arcane magic as another possibility, so that they are more rogue or spellthief like. I haven't tried to develop those rules though, so it might be a bit wonky. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Mar 2022 : 18:23:23
There are quite a few serpent kind in ak qadim monster books. And the mention of yuan ti being not welcome in zakharan cities because they are too evil (orcs, ogres, giants, drow are all welcome providing they dont disturb the peace) makes me think there is some evil snake thing in zakharan history.
Anyone have any thoughts on whether the Deathstone (Book of Artifacts), could be from zakhara. One site I read said it was from Kara Tur, but I can find nothing in its write up to make that link.
Its necromancy powers would tie nicely into zakharan lore on the ruined kingdoms.
Also, I remember reading about crenshenibon being from Zakhara. When I first read about it I thought it was a terrible idea, but the ancient history of zakhara has lots of blanks, and lots of war between kingdoms, and even a city filled with really tall towers. I'm sure it could be made to fit, perhaps around the time of the first sha'ir.
While I mention sha'ir. They are a wizard kit in 2e, but it would seem they form pacts with genies for their magic, so it seems much more like a war lock in newer editions. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 22 Mar 2022 : 06:09:06
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I
I'm noticing a few hints at creator races influences in Zakhara. We have Ophidia who might as well put a sarrukh or yuanti sign above her head. The locathah civilisation off the south coast of the ruined kingdoms screams batrachi. Not seeing any aearee yet though.
I always thought the serpent lords were just a good breed of naga. Perhaps like the iridescent naga.
Simurgh are the closest you have to an avian race, but they’re quite magical and probably have a different origin story than creator race. They come across to me more like lamassu or some kind of outsider gone native. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Mar 2022 : 07:52:28
I'll focus on just the Al Qadim sources for the time being as it is the very worst example of why FR was deemed inaccessible to newcomers. The information is vague, inconsistent, and spread haphazardly across 8 or so sourcebooks, and i love it like that.
When i read about the giants in Zakhara i thought they were exactly like Annam's brood. They are magically powerful, form large empires, enslave lesser races, and perfectly adapt to their environment to form geographic subraces within a few millennia, but then i have the apocryphal view that the giant races we see in Faerun are not true subraces, they adapt when the environment changes (no other satisfactory way to explain fire giants in Ruathym or frost giants in Tethyr (with few habitable environments in between).
I'm noticing a few hints at creator races influences in Zakhara. We have Ophidia who might as well put a sarrukh or yuanti sign above her head. The locathah civilisation off the south coast of the ruined kingdoms screams batrachi. Not seeing any aearee yet though.
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| AuldDragon |
Posted - 21 Mar 2022 : 03:08:40
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the giants, if you look at the giants of Zakhara.... they're VERY different. I wouldn't relate them to Annam at all. Many of them might be offspring by another Othea like being. It might even be interesting if some of them are the result of hag and giant breeding from giants and hags that come here from faerie.
On the other hand, Tavis in the Twilight Giants trilogy saw multiple giants he didn't recognize when he found the ancient Ostorian capital. I've always taken them to be ones who migrated all the way to Zakhara when the kingdom fell.
Jeff |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Mar 2022 : 23:54:56
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Looks like i shall be reading Star of Cursrah then.
I keep noting that in the alqadim sourcebooks it refers to things a millennia ago, ie the time of giants, and when the haunted lands were a lush jungle. However, i'm going to treat that kind of statement as a "before recorded history", otherwise Zakhara would appear to spring up out of thin air 1000 years ago.
I'm not thinking of any large scale migration. I have noted that the far east of the ruined kingdoms has a significant foreign minority, so i'm wondering if people get to Zakhara overland through that tiny gap by heading east around the land of the Yak men and so skirt the far eastern coastline of Zakhara, coming in through the RUined Kingdoms. That would be where Untherites met Zakharans.
Lots of ancient stories in Al Qadim sourcebooks which i like, just came across a bit about the first Sha'ir in the Book of Artifacts. I could probably date that to around the time Calim and Memnon fled to Calimshan.
THen we have a time of necromancers in the RUined Kingdoms.
There is a locathah civilisation that was raised by an air focused civilisation.
I even read about the Jacinth Sea which was desertified by the impact of a falling star. Now if i remember correctly there is a myth about the Titans all leaving Faerun when they followed a falling star. Most assume that refers to the Sea of Fallen Stars, but what if its a Zakharan myth and explains the fall of the giant civilisations long ago
One thing to throw into this is that TECHNICALLY I don't think we have a corresponding date for Al-Qadim to modern Faerun. That being said, I really feel that to be a cop out, and I go with the idea that the events written for Zakhara were "modern day" at the time.
On the giants, if you look at the giants of Zakhara.... they're VERY different. I wouldn't relate them to Annam at all. Many of them might be offspring by another Othea like being. It might even be interesting if some of them are the result of hag and giant breeding from giants and hags that come here from faerie.
You might like looking over some ideas I threw out last year. I will note, go further in, because some of the ideas got better after some back and forth with others.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24069
I basically had some of the Mulan gods go south, and then things happen with them. Those gods would be Ereshkigal, Lamashtu, Sekhmet and her son Maahes, and Taweret. The three "noble" gods amongst them (Sekhment, Maahes, and Taweret) might have setup the society of Nog and Kadar with Lamashtu being the "evil outsider" who opposes Taweret. It very much might have been a matriarchal society, which might have been why they didn't go with the other gods (Maahes being the obedient and supportive son to his ruling mother Sekhmet). Its a dynasty
Lamashtu is a goddess all about corrupting childbirth or screwing up children, etc... She curses the males of the giant populations with infertility (creating the Rom and the island giants).
I have Taweret (a hippo headed mother goddess of childbirth) get pregnant and cursed/attacked by Lamashtu, and she gives up her own life to protect her child which become Shajar. He becomes a god of life and death, but grows up in the wild where he meets Ragarra.
On Sekhmet, I have her become Kiga the Predator... same role, name is just different, and her son "Maahes" is secretly behind "the Lions of Yesterday".
On Ereshkigal, perhaps after the death of Nergal and the events of the orcgate wars, she leads some Nars and humans who worship her south. They bring secrets of necromancy with them. Uruk Kigal |
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