| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| EricMinde |
Posted - 28 Feb 2022 : 04:48:11
I've been digging up the old books and looking through binders of notes and since the second sundering occurred, I'm not sure if immortal initiates (340ish PP) are allowed to physically travel in and out of Toril. Does anyone know the answer? |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| redking |
Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 09:50:26
I would say definitely not, at least in its "immortal form". A "mortal identity", AKA an "avatar" in Forgotten Realms terms, why not? But why? FR isn't a place that concerns the immortals of Mystara. Indeed, the presence of Ao, the overgod, is a huge stumbling block to any immortal project there. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Mar 2022 : 11:05:22
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We know it's up to Ao whether or not a divinity can be active in Realmspace... And one of the Spelljammer books broke down how many worshippers were needed for a deity to be considered active in a sphere.
We also know - from sources like Tymora's Luck - that deities from other spheres can sneak in. They can set up shop or they can impersonate recognized Realms deities. Though it's "against the rules", whatever they are, wherever they came from, which suggests that these interlopers have to be careful to not attract attention.
The only deity from another sphere that was involved in that novel wasn't impersonating anyone local, and didn't do a lot other than send an agent in to get involved. It was a Realms deity impersonating a Krynnish deity, and none of that happened in the Realms. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 02 Mar 2022 : 04:59:53
What big Ao plans is incomprehensible |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Mar 2022 : 02:41:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We know it's up to Ao whether or not a divinity can be active in Realmspace... And one of the Spelljammer books broke down how many worshippers were needed for a deity to be considered active in a sphere.
We also know - from sources like Tymora's Luck - that deities from other spheres can sneak in. They can set up shop or they can impersonate recognized Realms deities. Though it's "against the rules", whatever they are, wherever they came from, which suggests that these interlopers have to be careful to not attract attention.
1E and 2E offered rules for how an epic mortal could become an NPC deity. 3E offered even more rules, along with a comprehensive divine rank system. And countless more rules exist in numerous d20 products. None of the official systems (other than D&D Immortals products) addressed "immortal" or "overgod" progression beyond the greatest of mere gods, goddesses, deities, and powers.
quote:
Also, there is something of a hands-off approach between deities of different spheres. Unless a deity is trying to become worshipped in a particular sphere, they stay out of that sphere's affairs and expect the same from the deities of that sphere.
On the other hand of this hands-off situation, Ao himself imposed the rule that deities only have access to power which is given to them by their believers. Which basically allows mortals to determine which beings or cults or faiths will prosper - along with which will fail. If enough mortals decided to worship or promote a strange, new, foreign godling (maybe Dudonahorz or Vecna) then it would happen. If enough mortals decided that an existing deity was somehow fundamentally different (maybe Lathander Lord of Holy Wars, Talos the Desperate Gambler, Moander God of Vines and Wines) then it would happen. If enough mortals decided to abandon, reject, diminish, or "starve" the worship of a recognized god (maybe Selune or Gond) then it would happen. Without any apparent plan or decision by Ao, aside from tacitly adhering to the conditions he has established.
Indeed, certain deities (Cyric, Shar, Asmodeus) have exploited and manipulated mortals to claim greater godhood under these rules. Seemingly something Ao allows and tolerates, probably not something Ao ever designed or intended to happen. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 02:40:16
Yes, BECMI Immortals can freely come to or leave or live on Toril...well, really just like most any other creature. AO has no Official Stance on such things....as far as we know.
Historically AO has no problems with Avatars or Immortals being on Toril. In 5E both Auril and Tiamit have had "forms" that "live on Toril" and are weakened forms of the deity. But I don't think I've see the exact word "Avatar" used...but that IS what they are.
To use BECMI Immortal rules in D&D, you would need to add Power Points rules to the game. AO would be a Great Old One...or maybe slightly "less" then that: A Great Not So Old One. Bane, Mystra, Oghma, Shar and Tyr as Hierarchs of Entropy, Time, Thought, Energy, Matter. And so on. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 28 Feb 2022 : 22:20:35
If the ruleset you prefer to play with is BECMI, then I would say go for it.
Having said that:
AO would be in the Immortals rules, beyond anything a character could achieve...so his rules would still go.
As for your proposed Immortal, if Lathander was her Immortal sponsor, I think Wooly has the right of it:
Call her a "Chosen" and all will be well. If she begins to foster a cult following, other Gods may take issue with what her worshipers say is her divine portfolio. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Feb 2022 : 21:13:47
That's how I'd play it, but keep in mind, I am not familiar with the source material on immortals.
Really, given your most recent post, I'd not bother with the Immortal from elsewhere angle at all -- I'd start with a Chosen of Mystra, power it down some, swap Mystran abilities for things Lathander would be all about (healing, slapping undead around, etc) and go with that. Make the character a Chosen of Lathander, rather than an Immortal from a non-entirely compatible ruleset, and it's easier to adapt and easier to explain. |
| EricMinde |
Posted - 28 Feb 2022 : 17:54:59
Thank you Wooly. I don't believe the character I'm adapting would possess much direct divinity aside from the base PP that she's already accumulated as most of her abilities are directly tied with 2 divine artifacts that enhance what she can already do. I don't feel she would seek further divinity (aside from growing naturally with experience turned into power points). The character is from Abier-Toril and is/was chosen(Initiated?) by the Commander of Creation (Lathander) and still feels she's his priest. So there are strong ties to what used to be, but the second sundering and reformation of the tablets may have changed the planet enough for previously tuned forks(plane shift component) to not function.
What I'm getting so far is an immortal (without divine status) could go to a prime without overgod (or any god really) resistance as long as they did their own thing. In my adapted charatcer's situation, as long as she was still beholden to Lathander and followed his tenants as per her usual life of faith, there should. would or could be little to no blowback or resistance to her coming back to the prime.
Is that a fair assumption? |
| Azar |
Posted - 28 Feb 2022 : 17:36:50
As soon as I read "immortal", I thought of Mystara and I'm not even a Mystara buff  . |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Feb 2022 : 15:52:34
We know it's up to Ao whether or not a divinity can be active in Realmspace... And one of the Spelljammer books broke down how many worshippers were needed for a deity to be considered active in a sphere.
Also, there is something of a hands-off approach between deities of different spheres. Unless a deity is trying to become worshipped in a particular sphere, they stay out of that sphere's affairs and expect the same from the deities of that sphere.
I'm not up on the Immortals material, but so far as I know, the Known World and the other campaign settings have been very much kept separate.
I would say that if an Immortal is not divine and not trying to become divine, then there's no issue. I would say that immortals with divinity, or avatars from other spheres, would be allowed to enter Realmspace, but they'd be under a strict prohibition not to mess with anything divine, and they'd likely be watched very closely indeed by the local powers.
And it wouldn't take much of an infraction for some gods to decide to smite said immortal, most likely. "He was talking to one of my worshippers, and I thought he might be poaching, so that's why this former immortal is now just a scorched spot on the road." Gods can be rather territorial. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Feb 2022 : 15:45:05
Assuming this is from the immortals boxed set I took the view that the setting in the OD&D sets was the original prime universe. When entropy devoured it in a big vortex the shattered multiverse was born.
Not that any of that answers your question. A while back I tried mapping the activities of gods to some form of divine currency (I settled on xp as a universal token of power) thatvis used to power the abilities of the divine. Want to manifest a miracle, expend xp, want to create a divine realm, expend xp, want to create an avatar, expend lots of xp.
Much of the logic and calculation I got from the immortals handbook.
I see no reason why you couldnt use PP to extrapolate the power of demi, lesser, intermediate, and greater deities.
Not got the books to hand but if an immortal initiate is low powered, has only one body (no other forms, aspects, avatars, etc) then it would be a demi god of some sort. In which case I would say that most demi gods are immortal initiates (assuming they became so through advancing in level and gathering xp). |
| EricMinde |
Posted - 28 Feb 2022 : 15:03:24
PP is the measure of power in the D&D Immortals campaign. 300 is the absolute minimum to become an initiate which is the lowest level of immortal.
Rules and Setting can be found at the archive here. (https://archive.org/details/tsr01017ddimmortalrulesboxedset/mode/2up)
I'm having to do some adaptation but I feel these could still apply to D&D today with some updating. (Haven't we all adapted something to fit now and then?)
My bigger question is about AOs commands and decrees (which I don't really know).
I know Toril has gone through some shit in the last few years. I read about the second sundering and the reformation of the Tablets of Fate that split Abeir and Toril again.
What I'm unclear about is AOs official stance on deities on the prime. Are there any mentions of avatars just chilling in faerun or other immortals walking around a market? Is there any official stance from AO on the subject?
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Feb 2022 : 11:06:22
What's an immortal initiate? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 28 Feb 2022 : 10:10:08
What does "340ish PP" mean?
-- George Krashos |
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