| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Azar |
Posted - 21 Feb 2022 : 01:06:09
Hello.
Hey, can someone please fill me in on just why The Ruins of Zhentil Keep (specifically, the AD&D 2e adventure/module) is polarizing among Forgotten Realms fans? |
| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 10:03:30
Eventually, they settled on a pretty good role for him, I think.
I think he makes a better god of murder than Bhaal. |
| Azar |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 10:01:08
I get more of a "Joker" vibe from Cyric. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 09:03:17
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Oh, I remember it being QUITE Divisive.
...
4. It was novel centric.
I remember novel-centric development of the setting (and rules) being extremely popular. Cyric's narrative was well-written - even if the character is an unworthy idiotic preening deluded twerp - but to my mind it marks the beginning of an era which produced a long list of novels which were entertaining and worthy additions to Realmslore. Realmslore which was richly explored and expanded with multiple trilogies every year. Unlike Realmslore today, dull and desolate without any stories, characters, or adventures driving forward.
The boxset was still a fine and useful accessory even if you'd never read the novels it followed up. Compare to other game products - like say the Pool of Radiance adventures - which were confusing and essentially unplayable if you had no familiarity with the novels (and video games) they were based on.
Ehhhh.
There's some caveats to this even then. Lore about the novels was very popular because the novels were very popular. Heroes Lorebook and the Villains Lorebooks were fantastic supplements because I loved using all the characters inside the books even if I didn't always agree with the stats. Drizzt and company were characters that plenty of people loved seeing the sites from with Menzoberrazan and Drow lore being very popular.
RUINS OF ZHENTIL KEEP and the Avatar Trilogy Pentalogy changes (which is actually module changes) got rid of Bhaal, Bane, and Myrkul that were extremely popular evil deities before replacing them with Cyric--who was basically sort of like Doomsday or Batman's Bane in that he has his fans but was considered a johnny come lately created for an event.
The destruction of Zhentil Keep with half its population killed, the organization in disarray, and much of it laid waste to was a bit like playing a Lord of the Rings game and someone got rid of Sauron and Mordor off camera. |
| Azar |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 06:59:23
I finally obtained a copy; The Ruins of Zhentil Keep is an outstanding supplement detailing a sizable bastion of civilization that can be repurposed if the original intention proves to be too contentious. |
| Azar |
Posted - 27 Mar 2022 : 19:28:48
Maybe the boxset should have included any (directly) relevant novels, huh ? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Mar 2022 : 03:23:23
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Oh, I remember it being QUITE Divisive.
...
4. It was novel centric.
I remember novel-centric development of the setting (and rules) being extremely popular. Cyric's narrative was well-written - even if the character is an unworthy idiotic preening deluded twerp - but to my mind it marks the beginning of an era which produced a long list of novels which were entertaining and worthy additions to Realmslore. Realmslore which was richly explored and expanded with multiple trilogies every year. Unlike Realmslore today, dull and desolate without any stories, characters, or adventures driving forward.
The boxset was still a fine and useful accessory even if you'd never read the novels it followed up. Compare to other game products - like say the Pool of Radiance adventures - which were confusing and essentially unplayable if you had no familiarity with the novels (and video games) they were based on. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 06:00:35
Oh, I remember it being QUITE Divisive.
This is way back in my teenage years, I should remind you, so I was about fifteen and I'm forty-one now. The fact is that it was really something that had gotten a lot of flack from being more of the, "Let's crap on the Zhentarim" products. The Zhentarim are basically the default bad guys for most 'traditional' Forgotten Realms groups as I think of them and served, at least for my group, was the setting's version of GI Joe's Cobra.
I even always played Manshoon and Fzoul as having a very Cobra Commander and Destro-esque relationship, though both of them thought they were Destro in the arrangement.
The reasons I remembered it being divisive were:
1. The Zhents are crippled by events utterly unrelated to the PCs. Which is a misreading of what happened but they didn't cover themselves in glory.
2. The City of Evil was smashed to pieces.
3. It was related to Cyric, who wasn't even a hero but a mad god punishing his own followers.
4. It was novel centric.
Basically, it was all fallout from the Avatat books and the fact the books were pressing the setting forward. But also the fact Cyric, himself, is a god that I love using but really rubs a lot of people the wrong way. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 04:06:04
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Divisive may have been because as I recall a lot of folks were upset that Zhentil Keep got nuked and this was the game product that really described that.
Personally, my only issue with the Fall of Zhentil Keep 1.0 was that it was rebuilt and back to normal within 10 years. That just seems awfully quick, to me.
But even that was just a minor quibble.
It's the Fall of Zhentil Keep 2.0 that really bugs me, but that's not entirely relevant to this discussion.
I think you actually hit the nail on the head here. I think the topic got them confused. I never met anyone who had a problem with the original destruction of Zhentil Keep. The Shadovar coming in and wiping away the previous most powerful evil organization in the realms like so much chaff was among the worst retcons in the Realms ever; I and most people I know hated it. I'm guessing Azar heard someone talking about this and tied the two together. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 04:00:04
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
As I understand it, the box set itself is well-crafted/well-written, but the event that necessitated its creation is the center of controversy.
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
The Cromyr book is the worst, just about zero lore and written by a five year old with things like "there are tress and stuff here". The Dalelands and Moonsea are almost as bad.
Holy moly, yes: both Cormyr and The Dalelands deserved one-hundred and twenty-eight page books at the minimum. Hell, they deserved box sets  .
Use the Volo's guides. Cormyr and the Dales are among the most detailed areas in all the realms. Only Waterdeep and Raven's Bluff have more. |
| HighOne |
Posted - 24 Feb 2022 : 00:30:38
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
It was not just Ruins of Zhentil Keep, but staring with the 2E boxed set a LOT of Realms products took a huge nose dive in quality. The Cromyr book is the worst, just about zero lore and written by a five year old with things like "there are tress and stuff here". The Dalelands and Moonsea are almost as bad.
Agree on Cormyr and the Dalelands (and the Shining South), but The Moonsea is one of my favorites. |
| Azar |
Posted - 23 Feb 2022 : 22:59:59
As I understand it, the box set itself is well-crafted/well-written, but the event that necessitated its creation is the center of controversy.
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
The Cromyr book is the worst, just about zero lore and written by a five year old with things like "there are tress and stuff here". The Dalelands and Moonsea are almost as bad.
Holy moly, yes: both Cormyr and The Dalelands deserved one-hundred and twenty-eight page books at the minimum. Hell, they deserved box sets . |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Feb 2022 : 21:35:40
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Divisive may have been because as I recall a lot of folks were upset that Zhentil Keep got nuked and this was the game product that really described that.
Personally, my only issue with the Fall of Zhentil Keep 1.0 was that it was rebuilt and back to normal within 10 years. That just seems awfully quick, to me.
But even that was just a minor quibble.
It's the Fall of Zhentil Keep 2.0 that really bugs me, but that's not entirely relevant to this discussion. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 22 Feb 2022 : 17:41:00
Divisive may have been because as I recall a lot of folks were upset that Zhentil Keep got nuked and this was the game product that really described that. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 22 Feb 2022 : 03:33:58
Yea, it might have been the first "We destroyed the Realms for no reason LOL" products. The whole Zhentil Keep is a big, bad scary city....then Bam a five year old idiot is like "the city goes boom". And the box set has a "ruins forever feel", though the city is rebult quick enough in-universe.
I think a LOT of people would have liked "just" a Zhentil Keep boxed set, more like Waterdeep: City of Splendors. Instead it feels like a child's taunt: "oh here we make a box set of a once cool city we destroyed" as they throw it at you.
It was not just Ruins of Zhentil Keep, but staring with the 2E boxed set a LOT of Realms products took a huge nose dive in quality. The Cromyr book is the worst, just about zero lore and written by a five year old with things like "there are tress and stuff here". The Dalelands and Moonsea are almost as bad. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 21 Feb 2022 : 13:02:26
YES!
I would STILL love to see a boxed set based on the Ruins of Tethyamar! I made a major part of my 10+ year FR campaign at Game Quest in Radford VA based around those dwarven "ruins" in which Mort "Dragonslayer" from the party reclaimed them (mostly).
As for Ruins of Zhentil Keep. I actually loved having a map of the city, some pretty decent history and so on.
I actually wrote an extended "History from the viewpoint of a Zhent" or something like that. I can't recall where I put that...
EDIT: here it is
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17269 |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 21 Feb 2022 : 09:47:33
I had reason to return to the history/timeline contained within it last year, and realised that someone at TSR in their infinite wisdom (I suspect because of a view that the archmage Manshoon can't be that young ...) pushed back the dates by about 50-75 years from the intended dating by reference to Ed's Zhentil Keep Everwinking Eye column in Polyhedron. It was annoying but not a game breaker. Otherwise, that boxed set has remained pretty pristine on my shelf. I never attributed much "gameability" to it. A bad product? No. An average product? Very much, yes. Resources that could have been allocated to a much more interesting product? Oh, indeed. Imagine what Ruins of Tethyamar might have looked like ....
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Feb 2022 : 03:07:08
...And it really wasn't even smeared off the map. Part of the city was leveled, but it was rebuilt and thriving again a decade later.
I find the destruction of Zhentil Keep by the Shades to be way more problematic. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Feb 2022 : 03:03:36
Ruins of Zhentil Keep was overlooked by many players at the time but it considered an excellent resource by most others.
It followed up on the Cyric novels, Prince of Lies and Crucible. These were good novels, well-written, creative, interesting, provocative. Much better than the original Avatar trilogy which preceded them.
"Derisive" would be a better descriptor than "divisive". But not about Zhentil Keep getting nuked. Not about the fine box set which updated the setting. Not about the novels those events were based on. All about Cyric - and his sheer incompetent insane idiocy. People wondered what in the Nine Hells Ao must've been thinking when he installed that particularly inept mortal into such a lofty station. (And more perceptive people also wondered what in the 666 Layers of the Abyss Ao must've been thinking when he installed that other particularly meddlesome and self-righteous mortal into Mystra's lofty station.)
This was quite a minor RSE in the overall scheme of things. Especially compared to the increasingly heavyhanded blunders WotC introduced in subsequent years. One evil city smeared off the map, sorta. Not a big deal after all the cosmic smashing and mixing and unmixing of worlds and dimensions which followed soon after. Especially not now, some two decades and a hundred sourcebooks and half a dozen rules editions (and a century beyond the original setting) later. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Feb 2022 : 03:03:28
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
It is? Didn't know that.
I'd never heard anything about it being divisive, either.
I think it may depend on the group. I was recently reading about something non-FR related, and the thing was saying "the fans really hated this!" -- but I'd not heard or seen a single negative comment on it, myself, and in fact everything I'd seen said it was well-received. |
| HighOne |
Posted - 21 Feb 2022 : 02:23:47
I didn't know it was divisive, but I can see how it would be. Isn't it one of the earliest products to completely demolish a well-known city/region and thereby reshape the Realms as a whole? Zhentil Keep was such an important part of the Realms, I can see how its destruction would upset people -- not just those who liked Zhentil Keep, but also those who wanted a more static setting without all the nuisances of an advancing timeline.
Personally, I thought it was a decent product, and I especially liked that it detailed both the original and the destroyed versions of Zhentil Keep. The designers really went the extra mile to make the product comprehensive in that regard. But the best part might be the "True" Timeline of Zhentil Keep, which was both useful and wryly amusing.
Oh, I also liked the Zhentarim caravan formations. I wish more products included information like that. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 21 Feb 2022 : 01:16:52
It is? Didn't know that.
I mean, well, hmmm...perhaps because some folks don't like the advent of Cyric and company into Godhood and the subsequent destruction of all parts of Zhentil Keep north of the river...
Myself, I don't use the timeline after the Old Grey Box any longer; so it is kinda moot for me.
I'm not offended by the Ruins of Zhentil Keep though...in fact it has a TON of information I use for my campaigns in it. |
