| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 15 Feb 2022 : 21:58:21
Ehhhh this is likely a massively noobish question that I probably should’ve known the answer to 20+ years ago but never had it come up.
I understand when you put a portable hole in a bag of holding there’s an explosion and everything gets transported to the Astral Plane. What happens if you are there though? Does it just fall out? End up elsewhere in the plane?
What about bags of devouring? How do they factor into the whole extra dimensional explosion aspect of the game? Does this happen to all ED (ummm extradimensional spaces to specify for we men over 40) combinations or is it specific to the ones mentioned in the Bag of Holding/Portable Hole descriptions? |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 16 Feb 2022 : 14:57:08
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I understand when you put a portable hole in a bag of holding there’s an explosion and everything gets transported to the Astral Plane. What happens if you are there though? Does it just fall out? End up elsewhere in the plane?
As mentioned by TBeholder, Planescape specifies that bags of holding cannot be accessed while on the Astral Plane, because the "gate" to them (i.e. the aperture of the bag) exists on a plane, and then extrudes into the Astral from said plane. If you're already on the Astral, there's nothing for it to extrude into.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Compare with other magics. Would a cubic gate explode if it's carried through a gate? Or if it's teleported?
The cubic gate would not, because the cubic gate is simply a device by which a gate can be opened. If the cubic gate was activated, a gate would form. At that point, the cubic gate's business is done. The user could then walk through the gate without the magic item doing anything funny. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 16 Feb 2022 : 12:09:07
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Ehhhh this is likely a massively noobish question that I probably should�ve known the answer to 20+ years ago but never had it come up.
I understand when you put a portable hole in a bag of holding there�s an explosion and everything gets transported to the Astral Plane. What happens if you are there though? Does it just fall out? End up elsewhere in the plane?
Planescape gave a definite answer to this. Extradimensional interfaces of items remain inactive while on Astral (or in the Flow, for that matter). Whatever is "inside" their pockets is inaccessible. The same applies to bags of devouring, etc. Spells like rope trick simply don't work.
Thus, nothing happens. If they stay dangerously overlapping, presumably the usual interaction happens once they arrive to some plane where extradimensional magic works.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
You'd think that if the inadvertent risk of causing a nuclear explosion was so dire and so common, there'd be a bunch of equally common low-level divinations all mages can learn to alert them of this better-than-invisible danger. To stop wrecking precious extradimensional containers, if nothing else.
There are. Detect Phase (Divination, Dimension, level 1 - Spells & Magic) for wizards,Extradimensional Detection (Sphere: Numbers, Divination, level 3 - Tome of Magic) for priests. Either detects EDI in a 10 x 60 ft path, the former along with Border Ethereal creatures and objects, the latter along with planar gates. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 16 Feb 2022 : 04:15:00
Yeah a lot of these questions and answers all delve into what I’ve been pondering. Thank you for the responses. I usually try to work with RAW when I can but fill in the blanks when it isn’t covered.
That bag of devouring article by the way, is excellent. I updated the “Devourer” in an adventure I ran and gave them a much longer background. It was a fun concept to work with. |
| Azar |
Posted - 16 Feb 2022 : 03:46:31
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Wouldn't it be neat if a Bag of Devouring became a full-fledged monster (with statistics) once it was taken to the Astral Plane?
Well...someone thought something about this....er, 22 years ago in Dragon #271 with the "Ecology of the Bag of Devouring".
Thank you, good sir. I was quite fond of "Ecology of the Nymph"; I will have to scope that article you mentioned, sometime. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Feb 2022 : 02:09:20
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
.... so someone with a bag of holding goes into his rope trick without thinking about the bag.... booom... That would obviously happen way too easily, and so they kind of quit writing that rule up that way.
Even a low-level mageling who's cast deep pockets to hide spell components up his sleeve, who carries a tokenized item in his robes, who's got certain cantrips or contigency magics active, or who carries any of a dozen common magical items ... could simply reach into an extradimensional container and cause fatal explosions if one uses the traditional Gygaxian rules.
And if one uses any of the rewritten, revised, revisionist rules Wizbro has published over subsequent game editions then things can't get any better. Gygax invented a rule to fix a problem at his table, he put it into the DMG, and not a lot of extradimensional thinking went into the game ever since.
You'd think that if the inadvertent risk of causing a nuclear explosion was so dire and so common, there'd be a bunch of equally common low-level divinations all mages can learn to alert them of this better-than-invisible danger. To stop wrecking precious extradimensional containers, if nothing else.
Compare with other magics. Would a cubic gate explode if it's carried through a gate? Or if it's teleported? Would an extradimensional container explode if it's brought within an extradimensional Leomund's (whatever)? Plenty of giths can planeshift themselves - along with all their gear, sometimes even an entire ship full of giths and gears - without all their extradimensional widgets exploding at their point of departure, arrival, or anywhere along their planar transit. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Feb 2022 : 02:05:11
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
But, like Wooly said, its supposed to be any extradimensional spaces going together.... so someone with a bag of holding goes into his rope trick without thinking about the bag.... booom... That would obviously happen way too easily, and so they kind of quit writing that rule up that way.
Actually had that exact thing happen -- my gun mage had a bag of holding and wanted to use rope trick to have a safe camping spot. I asked the DM before doing anything, and he went for the "you can't use one inside the other, but no boom unless you open it" rule. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 16 Feb 2022 : 02:03:27
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Wouldn't it be neat if a Bag of Devouring became a full-fledged monster (with statistics) once it was taken to the Astral Plane?
Well...someone thought something about this....er, 22 years ago in Dragon #271 with the "Ecology of the Bag of Devouring".
In 1995, Issue 221 of Dragon magazine included an article "(More Than) 101 Uses for a Portable Hole" that discussed various approaches to the physics of a Portable Hole as well as listing innovative uses (a telescoping tower, portable apartment or workshop, connecting two to form a "tunnel," etc.) to which such a device might be put.
From 2nd ed. AD&D DMG:
If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to Astral Plane is torn in the space, and the bag and the cloth are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within bag of holding, it opens a gate to another plane, and the hole, bag and any creatures within 10' radius are drawn to the plane, the portable hole and the bag of holding being destroyed in the process.
Or maybe: Total protonic reversal: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
The other big bag of holding thing that springs to mind is the epic "Bag Wars Saga" from the Knights of the Dinner Table comic. If none of your players know about this then, my friend, you have got an epic campaign on your hands. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Feb 2022 : 01:24:49
As Ayrik said, the intent of the rule was to eliminate stacking storage. A probably better way to have done it would have simply been to say that one extradimensional space cannot cross the "boundary" or "opening" or "aperture" of another extradimensional space.... maybe say something like they even react somewhat like magnets of the same polarity being brought together, except someone would then figure out some way to use them to power something. But, like Wooly said, its supposed to be any extradimensional spaces going together.... so someone with a bag of holding goes into his rope trick without thinking about the bag.... booom... That would obviously happen way too easily, and so they kind of quit writing that rule up that way. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Feb 2022 : 00:05:15
An extradimensional container is like an interface. With one end of the aperture anchored to a Prime. The other end to someplace else - possibly a one-off finite demiplane sort of place which is specifically created by (and only exists because of) the enchantments.
The intent of the "exploding" rule was obviously to prevent player abuse - stacking extradimensional containers inside each other to gain practically unlimited portable storage space.
(Players can of course weaponize this feature, though in practice such explosive devices are prohibitively expensive and unpractical for anything other the most epic and desperate uses.)
A less drastic variation would be for extradimensional containers inside other extradimensional containers to "seal" their extradimensional apertures (until they're removed from the extradimensional container they've been placed within). So a pouch of holding would simply be a pouch in any other plane or dimension than the one it was built to interface with - it would only contain the same volume it occupies itself and anything beyond that which might've been placed within it would temporarily be impossible to access.
This variation of the usual rule would basically "lock out" any extradimensional spells, spell component pockets/containers, and magical features which players frequently rely upon - so a PC wearing/carrying many extradimensional compartments still wouldn't be able to access them when trapped within a larger extradimensional area, plus of course he wouldn't be ground zero for a series of explosions.
Worth noting that a bag of holding - like any other bag made of similar materials - can be torn or punctured by items like pointy sharp swords placed within, which would certainly rupture the magics along with the container. Or it could be filled with something like water which would actually exceed the container's weight limits long before it exceeds the container's volume limits which would also burst the container and again cause the extradimensional magics to rupture. Imagine a cheap plastic garbage bag filled to capacity with water - or imagine what would happen if you tossed some axes and daggers into it - and imagine whether you'd prefer the contents to just sploosh onto the floor or if you'd prefer it to be a miniature nuke.
As to "explosion" ... the word implies a sudden and violent discharge. But it could simply mean the contents burst, leak, or spill out of the container in an unstoppable yet unspectacular fashion. For example, we say that old batteries and capacitors "explode" but they really tend to just slowly, gradually leak their corrosive electrochemical goop out of one bulging end - they generally don't become violent electrical fireworks. |
| Azar |
Posted - 16 Feb 2022 : 00:02:35
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
What about bags of devouring? How do they factor into the whole extra dimensional explosion aspect of the game? Does this happen to all ED (ummm extradimensional spaces to specify for we men over 40) combinations or is it specific to the ones mentioned in the Bag of Holding/Portable Hole descriptions?
Wouldn't it be neat if a Bag of Devouring became a full-fledged monster (with statistics) once it was taken to the Astral Plane? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Feb 2022 : 22:39:10
Generally, RAW, any mixing of extradimensional spaces is bad, regardless of the format.
If you're already on the Astral when you do it, I'd say you wind up elsewhere on the Astral.
I don't know if it was ever explicitly spelled out, but I know that some extradimensional stuff in earlier editions explicitly put those spaces within the Astral, and this appears to have been more or less assumed as the default for all extradimensional spaces.
Me, I've never liked the idea that even if you're not accessing your extradimensional space, that putting it inside another is an insta-boom. I think that at the very least, you should have to be actively using one -- like, reaching into it -- to make it react with the other.
The way I see it, the piece of cloth (for example) that is a portable hole isn't the actual extradimensional space -- it's just a piece of cloth that's bound to that space, and acts like a doorway into it. As long as the door stays closed, the space might as well not exist -- and thus shouldn't be an issue.
But even that's still kinda wiggy... If each extradimensional space is created separately and is basically a little pocket of space -- like a very small plane -- then why should accessing one inside another be an issue? I can open my portable hole in the Prime without issue and then go to Bytopia and open it up again, and still not have a problem. Why does opening a very small plane inside a very large one not cause an issue, but one very small one inside another very small one does?
Honestly, it's better to toss the entire concept to the side.
Also, I don't feel that interacting with an extradimensional space should require actually reaching into it. For most such spaces, sure, that's required... But there have long been magics in the game that send stuff to some unspecified otherwhere and bring them back at need -- much like hammerspace in cartoons and anime, where a character is empty-handed, reaches back, and suddenly has a very large hammer or other object in hand. I favor the idea that stuff can be stored in an extradimensional space and called forth or sent back at need, without actually opening that space -- the object is instead teleported there and back. Maybe this requires a special type of extradimensional space that's different from the "reach into this bigger than it looks container!" but that's fine; I don't have an issue with that. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 15 Feb 2022 : 22:19:31
Maybe it's just me but I'd try to apply a bit of scientific thinking here.
Extra dimensional spaces do not exist in our .material plane they are outside of it.
Add a portable hole into a bag of holding and you get an explosion (or maybe it's an energetic implosion), and everything ends up on the astral.
Now the astral plane is the gap between the planes, like when you lose something behind the fridge and it vanishes. Buts of matter often end up floating the astral as notes, and I may be mis remembering but I think belief has power there (something from planescape torment).
So we have two options. Either the extra dimensional spaces are actually extended ding into the astral plane normally, and putting a portable hole in it causes that matter inside to explode into the vacuum of the astral outside its magical confine.
Or extra dimensional spaces can exist on other planes, maybe even their own pocket plane, but putting a portable hole in it puts a planar rift into the wall and that rift goes nowhere (because the extra dimensional plane is not attached to any plane) and so opens up into the gap in the astral.
Regardless of where you are when you put the portable hole in the bag of holding it should have the same effect, because the extra dimensional space is a place in itself and the walls of that place are being breached.
It should also apply to any extra dimensional space, but most such spaces are larger than the bag of holding and finding its boundary to breach it (by putting a portable hole on it) would be more difficult.
Just my thoughts and how I would approach it. |
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