| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Retro1988 |
Posted - 13 Jan 2022 : 18:52:55
Well met! New member, delved into Candlekeep’s tomes on many a prior query but now directly seek the wisdom of the sages on a most perplexing matter.
Suppose that a dwarven band of Clan Ironstar descendants wanted to retake their ancestral seat of Ironstar Mountain, now called Firstpeak of the Frost Hills and occupied by an ancient silver greatwyrm named Dargentum.
Say these brave warriors were devouts of Clangeddin Silverbeard for his war-inclined doctrine, how would they feel about a silver dragon (specifically, as a favoured monster of Clangeddin) being the ultimate target of their crusade?
Especially given that Silvers seem to be rather… gregarious? Enjoying feasting in mortal forms and helping those who seek their aide in righting injustices.
Do these heroes train a lifetime for the ultimate battle to retake their home only to find that they can just ask nicely to have it back? Perhaps striking a bargain for cohabitation? Or religious affiliations aside is there just an inherent conflict of property here that would give these adversaries no qualms about ripping each other to pieces?
Your ponderings in these matters would be met with much appreciation. |
| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 22 Jan 2022 : 00:12:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Or the dragon could even be the one instigating the return of the dwarves. It could take dwarven form and gather a band to reclaim their hold...all paid for by the "dwarven" benefactor. It arranges an alliance between the dwarves and the dragon making for good neighbors...
I love this idea!
It could be even more fun if said dragon has an item of significance to Clan Ironstar, and uses it to sweeten the deal. Daurvos Frostbeard's helm or axe, perhaps, or maybe an anvil from a lost Ironstar stronghold that dates back to the earliest days of the clan.
Exactly.
A dragon, getting old, could realize that even though it may have centuries left to live, it won't live forever. Maybe it doesn't want its lair to fall to evil hands with it passing.
Maybe it is just lonely.
Most likely, to my thinking, a dragon bringing back the dwarves has a multi-layered purpose for what it is doing and why it is doing it now. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Jan 2022 : 13:42:50
quote:
Originally posted by Retro1988
I like your angle regarding the line of succession, my dwarf (Dalgrim Ironstar) knows he is of that old bloodline but is more of an upstart that hopes to reclaim the family throne via conquest. Would be interesting though if he encountered someone with a better claim! I'll paste his character sheet back story below, would be cool to hear your thoughts. Also I've linked a custom banner I've made for Dalgrim's warband - The Darksteel Company. Feel free to use in your current game!
https://ibb.co/6nLx52c
It's been a millennia since Clan Ironstar was driven out of its home by orcs. Growing up, the sad tale of King Daurvos was ingrained in Dalgrim's mind. Meeting his end holding Stone Bridge against the orcs, a 20ft avatar of Moradin pulling his body from the water to cradle and weep for his fallen kin, before turning to decimate the pursuing orcs allowing the dead king's family to flee south. Many abandoned the clan name that day and went into hiding, including Dalgrim's great-great-grandfather. But they still told the tale down the generations, and Dalgrim was resolved to do something about it.
He became a fighter for hire, and then a soldier of many far-flung wars. He rose through the lower ranks, becoming regarded as a competent leader and a battlemaster of many martial techniques. He was hired to captain a unit of the unified Army of the North in the 1372 defence against the phaerimm. His unit was wiped out by the Shadovar's betrayal, save for two of his lieutenants; Fardus Cryptbane a war cleric, and Gimdek Deeproot a root warden. Their shared survival formed a close bond, so Dalgrim invited them to share in his mission to restore Clan Ironstar as well. Together, they founded the Darksteel Company with the eventual aim of reclaiming the halls of Clan Ironstar under Firstpeak from the silver drake Dargentum that now occupied them.
A red leatherbound book appears in the air, its title being "The Red Book of Spell Strategy", and around its outer edges are several sayings. The lettering on its cover is made from various bits of cast metal in different alphabets throughout the realms. If one reads them, they say such things as "Alavairthae, may your skill prevail" and "The best offense is a carefully crafted contingency" and "If they can't find you, they can't kill you". The book is turned such that its spine is the highest point, and its pages suddenly begin to flap as if mimicking a mouth.
Hmmm, I found this axe suddenly an image appears in the air
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BucK8x_Ggu7E8EQf-dABbgiqLeSB2lzX/view?usp=sharing
a century or so back. It was in an orog cavern complex that myself and a compatriot, along with a couple battle horrors we were using as scouts, were clearing out. Given its darksteel blade and the emblem upon it made of marble and onyx, this wouldn't be a family heirloom would it? Several years later when in the town of Red Larch, I gave it as payment for services rendered into the hands of the Citadel of the Crimson Cleverblades, a minor temple to the Red Knight that was little more than a motte and bailey style wooden walled holding surrounding perhaps 10 buildings and sporting a stable with a stone tower on a hill overlooking them. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jan 2022 : 05:25:30
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Or the dragon could even be the one instigating the return of the dwarves. It could take dwarven form and gather a band to reclaim their hold...all paid for by the "dwarven" benefactor. It arranges an alliance between the dwarves and the dragon making for good neighbors...
I love this idea!
It could be even more fun if said dragon has an item of significance to Clan Ironstar, and uses it to sweeten the deal. Daurvos Frostbeard's helm or axe, perhaps, or maybe an anvil from a lost Ironstar stronghold that dates back to the earliest days of the clan. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 21 Jan 2022 : 01:18:24
Or the dragon could even be the one instigating the return of the dwarves. It could take dwarven form and gather a band to reclaim their hold...all paid for by the "dwarven" benefactor. It arranges an alliance between the dwarves and the dragon making for good neighbors... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Jan 2022 : 23:04:42
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The backstory sounds good, except I'm not quite following the part about reclaiming the halls from the silver dragon that's there now -- it makes it sound like the aim is to drive the dragon out. Driving a dragon out of its lair is not a minor undertaking, and a silver dragon, in particular, seems like a good neighbor for a dwarven community.
Devil's advocate: if the clan is particularly avaricious, they may not want any dragon nearby. After all, even the good dragons attract treasure the way honey draws flies.
I can see that... But if you've already been chased out of your home once, having a neighbor that can prevent that is huge. Someone greedy might not want to share their gold, but that dragon is guarding their flank and offering serious protection to the dwarven gold, just by its presence. Even if the dragon demanded tribute from the dwarves (which I should think unlikely), it's still cheaper than any other defenses they could have. |
| Azar |
Posted - 20 Jan 2022 : 22:42:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The backstory sounds good, except I'm not quite following the part about reclaiming the halls from the silver dragon that's there now -- it makes it sound like the aim is to drive the dragon out. Driving a dragon out of its lair is not a minor undertaking, and a silver dragon, in particular, seems like a good neighbor for a dwarven community.
Devil's advocate: if the clan is particularly avaricious, they may not want any dragon nearby. After all, even the good dragons attract treasure the way honey draws flies. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Jan 2022 : 16:13:26
The backstory sounds good, except I'm not quite following the part about reclaiming the halls from the silver dragon that's there now -- it makes it sound like the aim is to drive the dragon out. Driving a dragon out of its lair is not a minor undertaking, and a silver dragon, in particular, seems like a good neighbor for a dwarven community. |
| Retro1988 |
Posted - 19 Jan 2022 : 21:55:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, Dwarves Deep says it's possible there are Ironstars still around (page 13):
quote:
The Ironstar clan is believed to have become extinct when the Fallen Kingdom passed away (see the entries for Besilmer and Ironstar in the chapter on The Lost Kingdoms). Yet rumors persist that some few dwarves bearing the Ironstar name have a secret hold-caverns on Mintarn, perhaps, or beneath Mount Helimbrar, or even in Evereska, allied with the elves still in that misty, mysterious land somewherein the Realms. Ironstar dwarves, it is said, take other names when they go adventuring, to conceal the existence of their clan.
And Delg Hammerhand, in Spellfire, was a member of the clan.
My current character (we're playing 2E), is a descendant of Daurvos Frostbeard. He's aware of his heritage, but he also knows of a couple other descendants with better claims to the lost throne. In my character's case, one of Daurvos Frostbeard's grandsons changed his last name to protect his Ironstar heritage. That grandson later had a grandson who was named after him; this younger Ironstar descendant changed his last name again, to differentiate himself from his grandfather. So my guy is also an Ironstar, though anyone wanting to prove this would need to go through his family history to find this out.
Given that we know Daurvos Frostbeard had surviving great-grandchildren, I'd assume that there are a lot of descendants of the Ironstars still around. Whether or not there are enough of them to form a stable community, or even if they all know of their heritage -- that one, I'm not as sure about.
Precisely what I'm going for! I figured as it's been so long since 207 DR (setting my campaign around 1400 DR) it's likely that descendants of these "hold-caverns" in Mintarn, Evereska and Mount Helimbrar have spread even further afield with many generations of Ironstar dwarves roaming about possibly unaware of their heritage.
I like your angle regarding the line of succession, my dwarf (Dalgrim Ironstar) knows he is of that old bloodline but is more of an upstart that hopes to reclaim the family throne via conquest. Would be interesting though if he encountered someone with a better claim! I'll paste his character sheet back story below, would be cool to hear your thoughts. Also I've linked a custom banner I've made for Dalgrim's warband - The Darksteel Company. Feel free to use in your current game!
https://ibb.co/6nLx52c
It's been a millennia since Clan Ironstar was driven out of its home by orcs. Growing up, the sad tale of King Daurvos was ingrained in Dalgrim's mind. Meeting his end holding Stone Bridge against the orcs, a 20ft avatar of Moradin pulling his body from the water to cradle and weep for his fallen kin, before turning to decimate the pursuing orcs allowing the dead king's family to flee south. Many abandoned the clan name that day and went into hiding, including Dalgrim's great-great-grandfather. But they still told the tale down the generations, and Dalgrim was resolved to do something about it.
He became a fighter for hire, and then a soldier of many far-flung wars. He rose through the lower ranks, becoming regarded as a competent leader and a battlemaster of many martial techniques. He was hired to captain a unit of the unified Army of the North in the 1372 defence against the phaerimm. His unit was wiped out by the Shadovar's betrayal, save for two of his lieutenants; Fardus Cryptbane a war cleric, and Gimdek Deeproot a root warden. Their shared survival formed a close bond, so Dalgrim invited them to share in his mission to restore Clan Ironstar as well. Together, they founded the Darksteel Company with the eventual aim of reclaiming the halls of Clan Ironstar under Firstpeak from the silver drake Dargentum that now occupied them. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 17 Jan 2022 : 23:06:35
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
The thing is, dwarves know that they aren't too numerous, even with the Thunder Blessing. Usually this means allies who aren't complete dungheads are welcome.
quote:
Originally posted by Retro1988
I couldn't find any further information about the House of the Axe - any further reference you could provide please?
House of the Axe and Saryndalaghlothtor were introduced in Wyrms of the North article (Dragon Magazine #254 + update). AFAIK, no other sources. FRindex doesn't show anything either.
She pops up in 5e’s Fizban Dragon supplement, she’s still alive, still with her dwarf friends, and is currently helping them thwart a mining cartel. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 17 Jan 2022 : 21:36:21
The thing is, dwarves know that they aren't too numerous, even with the Thunder Blessing. Usually this means allies who aren't complete dungheads are welcome.
quote:
Originally posted by Retro1988
I couldn't find any further information about the House of the Axe - any further reference you could provide please?
House of the Axe and Saryndalaghlothtor were introduced in Wyrms of the North article (Dragon Magazine #254 + update). AFAIK, no other sources. FRindex doesn't show anything either. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Jan 2022 : 23:50:46
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Dargentum is presumably serving as guardian on behalf of the dwarves.
The real question is where did you find a band of dwarves of Clan Ironstar?
Hey Eric, just because that question jogged my memory..... probably not ironstar, but the dwarves in stasis you had in that adventure ... think it was in dungeon mag... think there was an intelligent free-willed helmed horror. Where were those dwarves from? Shanatar maybe? How long has it been since you made that? 25 years?
Dungeon #69. "Sleep of Ages" The dwarves were from Shanatar, specifically Iltkazar. And don't ask questions like that!
lol, yeah, sometimes I'm really thinking back and going "has it really been 20 years since plot X and not a damned thing has been done with it?" |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 16 Jan 2022 : 21:12:59
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Dargentum is presumably serving as guardian on behalf of the dwarves.
The real question is where did you find a band of dwarves of Clan Ironstar?
Hey Eric, just because that question jogged my memory..... probably not ironstar, but the dwarves in stasis you had in that adventure ... think it was in dungeon mag... think there was an intelligent free-willed helmed horror. Where were those dwarves from? Shanatar maybe? How long has it been since you made that? 25 years?
Dungeon #69. "Sleep of Ages" The dwarves were from Shanatar, specifically Iltkazar. And don't ask questions like that! |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Jan 2022 : 20:50:44
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Dargentum is presumably serving as guardian on behalf of the dwarves.
The real question is where did you find a band of dwarves of Clan Ironstar?
Hey Eric, just because that question jogged my memory..... probably not ironstar, but the dwarves in stasis you had in that adventure ... think it was in dungeon mag... think there was an intelligent free-willed helmed horror. Where were those dwarves from? Shanatar maybe? How long has it been since you made that? 25 years? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jan 2022 : 20:34:25
Well, Dwarves Deep says it's possible there are Ironstars still around (page 13):
quote:
The Ironstar clan is believed to have become extinct when the Fallen Kingdom passed away (see the entries for Besilmer and Ironstar in the chapter on The Lost Kingdoms). Yet rumors persist that some few dwarves bearing the Ironstar name have a secret hold-caverns on Mintarn, perhaps, or beneath Mount Helimbrar, or even in Evereska, allied with the elves still in that misty, mysterious land somewherein the Realms. Ironstar dwarves, it is said, take other names when they go adventuring, to conceal the existence of their clan.
And Delg Hammerhand, in Spellfire, was a member of the clan.
My current character (we're playing 2E), is a descendant of Daurvos Frostbeard. He's aware of his heritage, but he also knows of a couple other descendants with better claims to the lost throne. In my character's case, one of Daurvos Frostbeard's grandsons changed his last name to protect his Ironstar heritage. That grandson later had a grandson who was named after him; this younger Ironstar descendant changed his last name again, to differentiate himself from his grandfather. So my guy is also an Ironstar, though anyone wanting to prove this would need to go through his family history to find this out.
Given that we know Daurvos Frostbeard had surviving great-grandchildren, I'd assume that there are a lot of descendants of the Ironstars still around. Whether or not there are enough of them to form a stable community, or even if they all know of their heritage -- that one, I'm not as sure about.
|
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 16 Jan 2022 : 17:08:11
Dargentum is presumably serving as guardian on behalf of the dwarves.
The real question is where did you find a band of dwarves of Clan Ironstar? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jan 2022 : 14:54:24
quote:
Originally posted by Retro1988
I too came across the tale of Blingdenstone in my preliminary research and am also curious about how they, the city of Silverymoon and the dwarves of the Mithral Hall might get involved with a resurgent Clan Ironstar. Do you think these realms would lend support to their claim or see them as a threat to the existing balance?
I think Silverymoon would be delighted to see another dwarven nation nearby; more allies and trade partners are always good, especially in the North. And the dwarves of Mithral Hall would likely feel the same. Mithral Hall is not overly populous; it's not unlikely that the two would form some sort of combined realm, since they're basically neighbors. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Jan 2022 : 14:18:25
quote:
Originally posted by Retro1988
Thank you both for your insights! Seems to be consensus for the potential symbiotic relationship scenario, which opens up many more exciting considerations beyond your standard slay-a-dragon campaign! I think the dwarven band's attitude to the dragon may evolve the closer they get to home, initially planning for conflict but slowly questioning that plan as they learn more about Dargentum.
Couple of further enquiries if you'd be so kind...
quote:
Dwarves of the House of the Axe have a closer alliance than this with Saryndalaghlothtor already
This is a great basis for comparison, and Mirabar is actually quite nearby the Frost Hills just on the other side of the Lurkwood! I couldn't find any further information about the House of the Axe - any further reference you could provide please?
quote:
From the halls of Clan Ironstar, now home to the somnolent great silver wyrm Dargentum the Darksteel Drake, a network of forgotten tunnels opens onto the slopes of Firstpeak, high above the River Surbrin.
Very enlightening extract from Drizzt's guide thank you, seems that Dargentum's lair is indeed directly inside their mountain halls, and if my understanding of "somnolent" is correct then he is hibernating. Once the deal is struck, via a gift or quest as you suggest, I think they will indeed carve a fresh entrance to bypass their new tenant.
I too came across the tale of Blingdenstone in my preliminary research and am also curious about how they, the city of Silverymoon and the dwarves of the Mithral Hall might get involved with a resurgent Clan Ironstar. Do you think these realms would lend support to their claim or see them as a threat to the existing balance?
The blingdenstone gnomes took up with dwarves of Mithral Hall after they had to flee their homes. I can't see any reason they'd be against dwarven neighbors, especially since they used to trade with the dwarves that lived here previously. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 16 Jan 2022 : 11:36:52
The real names for firstpeak and secondpeak? Fantastic! I couldn't research them last week. |
| Retro1988 |
Posted - 16 Jan 2022 : 09:02:01
Thank you both for your insights! Seems to be consensus for the potential symbiotic relationship scenario, which opens up many more exciting considerations beyond your standard slay-a-dragon campaign! I think the dwarven band's attitude to the dragon may evolve the closer they get to home, initially planning for conflict but slowly questioning that plan as they learn more about Dargentum.
Couple of further enquiries if you'd be so kind...
quote:
Dwarves of the House of the Axe have a closer alliance than this with Saryndalaghlothtor already
This is a great basis for comparison, and Mirabar is actually quite nearby the Frost Hills just on the other side of the Lurkwood! I couldn't find any further information about the House of the Axe - any further reference you could provide please?
quote:
From the halls of Clan Ironstar, now home to the somnolent great silver wyrm Dargentum the Darksteel Drake, a network of forgotten tunnels opens onto the slopes of Firstpeak, high above the River Surbrin.
Very enlightening extract from Drizzt's guide thank you, seems that Dargentum's lair is indeed directly inside their mountain halls, and if my understanding of "somnolent" is correct then he is hibernating. Once the deal is struck, via a gift or quest as you suggest, I think they will indeed carve a fresh entrance to bypass their new tenant.
I too came across the tale of Blingdenstone in my preliminary research and am also curious about how they, the city of Silverymoon and the dwarves of the Mithral Hall might get involved with a resurgent Clan Ironstar. Do you think these realms would lend support to their claim or see them as a threat to the existing balance? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Jan 2022 : 16:48:31
I would think these dwarves would look at it as "hey, someone we can be friends with has protected our ancestral home from becoming squatters territory", then they'd probably approach the dragon to discuss moving back in. Naturally, they'd probably bring a gift and try to discuss sharing the territory. IF the dragon's "lair" area was smack in the middle of the entrance, they might have to make a new way into the city, as I'm sure the dragon wouldn't want dwarves moving through its bedroom. The dragon meanwhile would probably appreciate having friendly dwarves acting as a buffer against anyone trying to invade its lair.
The bigger question I have is whether the svirfneblin of Blingdenstone fled through this dragon's lair when they fled their home long ago in 1358 and later in 1371 when the city was destroyed by Drow and what kind of relationship they have with the dragon (bearing in mind that many of the same ones that fled are likely the same ones returning a hundred years later).
Posting the entries about Dargentum from Drizzt's guide to the underdark just for reference
In the years following the founding of Blingdenstone, the svirfneblin secretly traded with the shield dwarves of Clan Ironstar. The short-lived Ironstar realm was founded in -2919 DR and fell in the Year of the Majestic Mace (207 DR), existing alongside Mithral Hall for roughly eight centuries. Clan Ironstar dwelt beneath Ironstar Mountain and its sister peaks of Northlook and Wyrmtongue (known today as Firstpeak, Secondpeak, and Thirdpeak, respectively), whereas Mithral Hall lies in the roots of Fourthpeak. Ancient shafts still connect Blingdenstone with the abandoned Ironstar delvings above. From the City of Speaking Stones, it is possible to reach the heart of Firstpeak (Ironstar Mountain) via ramps that spiral up a series of vertical shafts. From the halls of Clan Ironstar, now home to the somnolent great silver wyrm Dargentum the Darksteel Drake, a network of forgotten tunnels opens onto the slopes of Firstpeak, high above the River Surbrin. Only the reigning monarch of Blingdenstone and his designated heir know of this route, reserved as a last, best hope of escape for the populace should the city ever be overrun. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 14 Jan 2022 : 13:48:17
quote:
Originally posted by Retro1988
Suppose that a dwarven band of Clan Ironstar descendants wanted to retake their ancestral seat of Ironstar Mountain, now called Firstpeak of the Frost Hills and occupied by an ancient silver greatwyrm named Dargentum.
Say these brave warriors were devouts of Clangeddin Silverbeard for his war-inclined doctrine, how would they feel about a silver dragon (specifically, as a favoured monster of Clangeddin) being the ultimate target of their crusade?
What their problem with him is supposed to be? Does the dragon occupy the entire mountain somehow?
The dwarves are not goblins, they aren't going to just settle in an open cave either way. So they won't even really compete for that part of useful space.
The obvious basic arrangement is that dwarves would live down in their dwarf hold, and the wyrm in his lair. While he's a wyrm, that is.
While in humanoid form, he could walk through the hold like a friendly visitor, conversely dwarves get to move via his cave when necessary. If the sort of visitors who come uninvited and don't use the front door happen to run into him... all the better. 
Dwarves of the House of the Axe have a closer alliance than this with Saryndalaghlothtor already. And crystal dragons aren't even favored by any dwarven deity, it's just common sense. |
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