| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Azar |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 12:11:35
Hello hello!
In the AD&D 2e trio of FR deity supplements, the Priests of the various faiths are typically granted special titles denoting their rank. Below is one such example from Faiths & Avatars page no. 48 ->
quote:
Priests of Chauntea use such titles as (in ascending order of rank) Close One, Watchful Brother/Sister of the Earth, Trueseed, Harvestmaster/Harvestmistress; High Harvestmaster/Harvestmistress, and Onum.
Here is another example from page no. 169 ->
quote:
The Church of Tyr is a highly organized, formal priesthood that maintains internal rules and a system of fortified temples. At Tyrran temples,the faithful can find lodging, fresh mounts, healing, spell aid, weapons, gear, and holy advice. If a worshiper or priest knows that she or he has stinted in service to the Just One, confession and penance are also available. Level titles used by the clergy in recent years, in order of ascending rank, are: Acolyte of Laws, Solemn Brother/Sister, Lawkeeper, Sword of Tyr, Hammer of Tyr, Vigilant Watcher, Just Captain, Avenger, Master Avenger, Abbot, High Lord Abbot, High Avenger, Knight Commander, Hammer Lord, Defender of Justice, and Keeper of the Balance.
My question is this: how would you decide when each title is assigned to a Priest? To my way of thinking, there are two ways to go about implementing them.
- On an actual Character Level basis. The original AD&D actually bestowed PCs with custom titles depending on their level; you can view those titles here (scroll down to "Advanced D&D Titles"). In this case, one could simply apply each title consecutively starting at Level 0/1...but that works better for some faiths than others, in light of the fact that some faiths have only have a handful of such titles while others number at least ten. It seems that each faith would have to be evaluated independently. Character Levels top out at 20 per the core rules, Level 30 with the Dungeon Master Option: High-Level Campaigns supplement and Level 40 with the Faiths & Avatars/Demihuman Deities/Powers & Pantheons supplements (they appear to have been intended for avatars, but you could easily repurpose them for Player Characters). Anyhow, once you crunch the numbers and subsequently determine each plateau of power, this is the fairly straightforward solution.
- With the completion of faith-specific missions/quests that may not necessarily award the tasked individual with gobs of XP. This is the more involved but also arguably more realistic solution; there are people who are overqualified for their positions, those who are unwilling to play politics to climb the ranks (remaining capable yet in the background), the unusually lucky/driven/intelligent souls, et cetera. You could argue that this is less likely to happen with a priest, given the fact that many gods will eventually send signs if one of their most devout worshipers is being neglected by their faith. On the other hand, a worshiper of a capricious terror like Talos or Lolth, well...they'll have to speak up.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this unexpectedly complex subject   . |
| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 09 Dec 2021 : 02:01:40
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Actually, I think having a justification for a priest of Oghma in any group would be the easiest justification: they are there to record what is seen and heard in the group's travels. Are there goblins in the Sunset Mts? Yes, there are and here is a drawing of their banner. How was the harvest on farms outside of Corm Orp this year? It was a slightly better than average yield per farm. Oghma cares about all knowledge outside of magic (that is Mystra's concern). Basically, anything you can find in an encyclopedia or farmer's almanac would be information that the Church would want and will reward priests that gather that information and pass it along. They would just have to take time to record this information.
This may put them into conflict with covert groups or at least an "ordinary" group that finds itself with a pressing immediate need for secrecy, yes? Do you imagine an Oghmanyte could be convinced to delay the dissemination of their observations until potential reprisals have been dealt with/rendered impossible?
Page 132 of 2e Faiths and Avatars, in the Dogma section of the Oghma entry has this:
"Hide some writings away while distributing others widely so that the written knowledge of Faerun is larger when you leave life than when you entered it."
So, yes, I can see them keeping some things secret for a bit. |
| Azar |
Posted - 09 Dec 2021 : 01:50:57
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Actually, I think having a justification for a priest of Oghma in any group would be the easiest justification: they are there to record what is seen and heard in the group's travels. Are there goblins in the Sunset Mts? Yes, there are and here is a drawing of their banner. How was the harvest on farms outside of Corm Orp this year? It was a slightly better than average yield per farm. Oghma cares about all knowledge outside of magic (that is Mystra's concern). Basically, anything you can find in an encyclopedia or farmer's almanac would be information that the Church would want and will reward priests that gather that information and pass it along. They would just have to take time to record this information.
This may put them into conflict with covert groups or at least an "ordinary" group that finds itself with a pressing immediate need for secrecy, yes? Do you imagine an Oghmanyte could be convinced to delay the dissemination of their observations until potential reprisals have been dealt with/rendered impossible? |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 09 Dec 2021 : 01:32:05
Actually, I think having a justification for a priest of Oghma in any group would be the easiest justification: they are there to record what is seen and heard in the group's travels. Are there goblins in the Sunset Mts? Yes, there are and here is a drawing of their banner. How was the harvest on farms outside of Corm Orp this year? It was a slightly better than average yield per farm. Oghma cares about all knowledge outside of magic (that is Mystra's concern). Basically, anything you can find in an encyclopedia or farmer's almanac would be information that the Church would want and will reward priests that gather that information and pass it along. They would just have to take time to record this information. |
| Azar |
Posted - 09 Dec 2021 : 00:33:04
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Treat it like really life. Assume there are a limited number of positions at each rank. Those in the upper ranks laud their power over the lower ranks. You may only progress in rank after years of pointless tasks and humiliation and when a vacant position becomes available.
This is all within a single temple however, and bear in mind that obtaining a position within a church likely means one must take a permanent position within a temple which then negates or limits the possibility of freedom / adventuring.
I do agree that the ranks work well within a single temple without much (if any) modification. However, I've found that campaigns are rarely tethered to one location; if a single location is mentioned, then the range which the PCs operate within tends to be vast. With magical correspondence or even real-time communication being a possibility, should it not be possible for a character to climb ranks that are applicable/universal across many centers of worship?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You are also thinking in linear form for titles. Taking business as a model and IT as a "class"... the church of "BankusBankrupticus" may have several individuals with IT as a class. Many of them may start out with the title "HelpDeskAdmin", but then they advance, and as they do, they advance into different titles like "network engineer" and "server admin" and "database admin", etc....
Similarly, the Just Watcher/Avenger/High Avenger/Master Avenger may be one "path" that deals with those who encroach upon the church's goodwill (and may watch its own flock). Meanwhile the hammer of tyr, just captain, etc.... may be a policing arm. Then it may be that some titles are only with certain paths of the faith (i.e. the church of Tyr in say Impiltur may not be worshipped with the same values as the same church in Tethyr or Aman or Calimshan).
That's...an interesting interpretation. The way I see it, the ranks - as is - are clear-cut: an Abbot is clearly a superior to a Lawkeeper and a Lawkeeper's orders override those of a Solemn Brother/Sister. Is there an opposing precedent that I'm missing?
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
If you look at the 2e Complete Priest's Handbook, starting on page 35 with:
"Below is the usual arrangement of priesthoods in a campaign. First is the organizational structure which NPC priests usually follow; then, we'll talk about player-characters and their place in the structure."
Getting promoted is usually based on service to the church so that as the priest completes more assignments from higher ups, they get promoted (and gain levels from that activity). That is why our group had a priest of Mystra in the group: she was assigned to observe the group's mage by her superiors. That is why she made the journey from Saerloon to the Western Heartlands. It is also why the Mystran Church has a complete record of his activities. She never told him that she was there to watch and report. The others of the group kinda expected them to be a thing but it didn't happen. She wasn't staying by him out of affection but instead out of duty to her god and church. Now that he has settled down, she has, too. She is now the head of a temple and has the title of Lady of Mysteries.
Edit: fixed typo
Thank ye kindly, Sir TheIriaeban. So, as an example, one way for a Priest of Oghma to rise in the ranks is through the steady abolishment of institutional ignorance. A monster kill count? Not as useful a metric for gauging one's piety to the Lord of Knowledge.
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
In general, I think PCs should be pretty low-ranked through most of a campaign, simply because that's the only way they could be autonomous in the way being a PC requires. Getting into the upper ranks should require a lot of administrative tasks, politicking, etc. Maybe if they can build a temple or fortress and be the "master" of it could they jump up the ranks. Otherwise I'd only give PCs higher titles if they perform specific services for the temple.
Jeff
Coincidentally, this introduces friction that could result in (ideally quality) drama: the experienced yet low-ranking PC priest must convince their higher-ranked and possibly insular brethren of a danger to the faith.
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
I'm not a fan of "Title by level", even more so level by level. The robotic "He is a Curate he is 5th level."
The more Lawful churches would have tons of rules on "who gets what title, when and how". Everyone else is more casual.
Non-Lawful religions may not clash quite as much on matters of protocol. Would you say that rank is overall less important to them? |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 03 Dec 2021 : 02:40:09
I'm not a fan of "Title by level", even more so level by level. The robotic "He is a Curate he is 5th level."
The more Lawful churches would have tons of rules on "who gets what title, when and how". Everyone else is more casual. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 20:21:47
In general, I think PCs should be pretty low-ranked through most of a campaign, simply because that's the only way they could be autonomous in the way being a PC requires. Getting into the upper ranks should require a lot of administrative tasks, politicking, etc. Maybe if they can build a temple or fortress and be the "master" of it could they jump up the ranks. Otherwise I'd only give PCs higher titles if they perform specific services for the temple.
Jeff |
| Demzer |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 16:40:27
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
You may only progress in rank after years of pointless tasks and humiliation and when a vacant position becomes available.
You are so funny. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 16:33:06
If you look at the 2e Complete Priest's Handbook, starting on page 35 with:
"Below is the usual arrangement of priesthoods in a campaign. First is the organizational structure which NPC priests usually follow; then, we'll talk about player-characters and their place in the structure."
Getting promoted is usually based on service to the church so that as the priest completes more assignments from higher ups, they get promoted (and gain levels from that activity). That is why our group had a priest of Mystra in the group: she was assigned to observe the group's mage by her superiors. That is why she made the journey from Saerloon to the Western Heartlands. It is also why the Mystran Church has a complete record of his activities. She never told him that she was there to watch and report. The others of the group kinda expected them to be a thing but it didn't happen. She wasn't staying by him out of affection but instead out of duty to her god and church. Now that he has settled down, she has, too. She is now the head of a temple and has the title of Lady of Mysteries.
Edit: fixed typo |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 13:06:39
You are also thinking in linear form for titles. Taking business as a model and IT as a "class"... the church of "BankusBankrupticus" may have several individuals with IT as a class. Many of them may start out with the title "HelpDeskAdmin", but then they advance, and as they do, they advance into different titles like "network engineer" and "server admin" and "database admin", etc....
Similarly, the Just Watcher/Avenger/High Avenger/Master Avenger may be one "path" that deals with those who encroach upon the church's goodwill (and may watch its own flock). Meanwhile the hammer of tyr, just captain, etc.... may be a policing arm. Then it may be that some titles are only with certain paths of the faith (i.e. the church of Tyr in say Impiltur may not be worshipped with the same values as the same church in Tethyr or Aman or Calimshan). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 12:25:18
Treat it like really life. Assume there are a limited number of positions at each rank. Those in the upper ranks laud their power over the lower ranks. You may only progress in rank after years of pointless tasks and humiliation and when a vacant position becomes available.
This is all within a single temple however, and bear in mind that obtaining a position within a church likely means one must take a permanent position within a temple which then negates or limits the possibility of freedom / adventuring.
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