| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Azar |
Posted - 29 Sep 2021 : 06:52:17
Hello.
Whether you DM or play in the Realms, what is the absolute minimum that you require of a Forgotten Realms campaign in order to deem it faithful to the Forgotten Realms setting? For some, a DM need only state "We're playing in The Forgotten Realms." and that's good enough. For others, immersion is only possible if the campaign features languages unique to the Realms, famous NPCs, noteworthy artifacts, specific locations (e.g., fans that only play in Faerun), et cetera. Occasionally, a certain edition of D&D or in-setting era is a must; others declare that peculiar events will be omitted (e.g., refusing to acknowledge/integrate The Time of Troubles).
Conversely...what could possibly crop up during play that would make you think "This isn't The Forgotten Realms."? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Azar |
Posted - 28 Oct 2021 : 20:05:23
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Back during those 3.5e heydays, I would read both PBP games and regular tabletop gaming diaries/journals/logs as a way of getting myself psyched for a potential Forgotten Realms campaign of my own. There was this DM that removed the big ones...Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Tantras and the like. Basically, if the city was populous, especially famous or both, it didn't exist. From what I can recall, he did this to enforce a Faerun where there was less consolidated power and where the formidable NPCs were less tethered to any one nation.
Were I to play in a campaign limited to a single mid-sized region, it is entirely possible that my character would never come close to the vicinity of a grand city. However, knowing in advance that the major population centers had been edited out would have elicited at least a moderate reaction from me, considering my sensibilities. "Knockoff" doesn't quite fit...no, I think "diet-" or "-lite" is a more apt descriptor.
At that point, it is no more effort to just build a campaign setting from scratch. Eliminating populations centers has some major ripple effects in terms of economies. Long distance caravans basically go bye-bye because there are no roads connecting no-longer-extant waterdeep and Baldur's Gate. No more Cormyr, or least Cormyr would have to be reworked to something unrecognizable because the Crown and central government are neutralized.
No need or funding for standing armies. You probably do not necessarily need the existence of Harpers, Zhentarim or major temples. Religious edifices are basically shrines.
Not everyone is big on causality...or at least causality on so wide a scale. I've likely been guilty of failing to uphold such consistency, myself  . |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 14 Oct 2021 : 17:45:58
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Back during those 3.5e heydays, I would read both PBP games and regular tabletop gaming diaries/journals/logs as a way of getting myself psyched for a potential Forgotten Realms campaign of my own. There was this DM that removed the big ones...Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Tantras and the like. Basically, if the city was populous, especially famous or both, it didn't exist. From what I can recall, he did this to enforce a Faerun where there was less consolidated power and where the formidable NPCs were less tethered to any one nation.
Were I to play in a campaign limited to a single mid-sized region, it is entirely possible that my character would never come close to the vicinity of a grand city. However, knowing in advance that the major population centers had been edited out would have elicited at least a moderate reaction from me, considering my sensibilities. "Knockoff" doesn't quite fit...no, I think "diet-" or "-lite" is a more apt descriptor.
At that point, it is no more effort to just build a campaign setting from scratch. Eliminating populations centers has some major ripple effects in terms of economies. Long distance caravans basically go bye-bye because there are no roads connecting no-longer-extant waterdeep and Baldur's Gate. No more Cormyr, or least Cormyr would have to be reworked to something unrecognizable because the Crown and central government are neutralized.
No need or funding for standing armies. You probably do not necessarily need the existence of Harpers, Zhentarim or major temples. Religious edifices are basically shrines. |
| Azar |
Posted - 14 Oct 2021 : 04:39:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
For example, if Waterdeep never existed, that's one thing. If it existed but was destroyed by a flight of dragons during the Rage of Dragons storyline, that's another thing. The end result for both is no Waterdeep -- but how it happens is as important as what happens.
Back during those 3.5e heydays, I would read both PBP games and regular tabletop gaming diaries/journals/logs as a way of getting myself psyched for a potential Forgotten Realms campaign of my own. There was this DM that removed the big ones...Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Tantras and the like. Basically, if the city was populous, especially famous or both, it didn't exist. From what I can recall, he did this to enforce a Faerun where there was less consolidated power and where the formidable NPCs were less tethered to any one nation.
Were I to play in a campaign limited to a single mid-sized region, it is entirely possible that my character would never come close to the vicinity of a grand city. However, knowing in advance that the major population centers had been edited out would have elicited at least a moderate reaction from me, considering my sensibilities. "Knockoff" doesn't quite fit...no, I think "diet-" or "-lite" is a more apt descriptor. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Oct 2021 : 15:36:28
With the potential for change being nigh-infinite, that makes any one person's potential deal breakers also nigh-infinite.
Speaking for myself, I can't say there's a single litmus test -- because there are so many different things that can be omitted or changed, *and* so many different ways it can be done.
For example, if Waterdeep never existed, that's one thing. If it existed but was destroyed by a flight of dragons during the Rage of Dragons storyline, that's another thing. The end result for both is no Waterdeep -- but how it happens is as important as what happens.
|
| Azar |
Posted - 13 Oct 2021 : 13:51:07
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
It's not my intent to be rude or dodge the question, but I don't like litmus tests. The cool thing about D&D and the Realms is you can make them your own. If I run a game, I try to involve a fair bit of lore, but I don't balk if someone else runs a Realms game that reimagines things.
What does "The Forgotten Realms" mean to you?
It's a well developed setting with a lot of history and lore, which I try to incorporate into my characters and when I'm a DM, the game. For example, most of my characters have at least a page of background history that integrates them into the Realms. And when I ran Ghosts of Saltmarsh as a DM, I placed it along the northern border of Turmish. I researched Turmish, the Pirate Isles, etc, and modified character names and place names to have it all fit. I do that because its fun for me and hopefully those I play with. But I've played plenty of fun games where the DM didn't know and didn't care much about the lore and history, which worked out just fine. Heck most of the 5E hardcover books despite being placed in the Realms are fairly light on lore, but have still been excellent to play through. It's all the Realms. It doesn't have to be the way I would do it.
Thank you, Mr. Costa. I suppose what I am ultimately trying to determine is the minimum level of resolution/detail required for an individual to buy into the basic campaign premise: a Forgotten Realms adventure. Is it still a Forgotten Realms experience if the DM sets the adventure in an entirely new (homebrewed) land without ties/relations to any other nation? What if they omit the Faerunian pantheon altogether? How about ignoring the sun elf/moon elf divide?
The questions are potentially nigh-infinite, but you see what I'm getting at, yes? |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 08 Oct 2021 : 02:50:30
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
It's not my intent to be rude or dodge the question, but I don't like litmus tests. The cool thing about D&D and the Realms is you can make them your own. If I run a game, I try to involve a fair bit of lore, but I don't balk if someone else runs a Realms game that reimagines things.
What does "The Forgotten Realms" mean to you?
It's a well developed setting with a lot of history and lore, which I try to incorporate into my characters and when I'm a DM, the game. For example, most of my characters have at least a page of background history that integrates them into the Realms. And when I ran Ghosts of Saltmarsh as a DM, I placed it along the northern border of Turmish. I researched Turmish, the Pirate Isles, etc, and modified character names and place names to have it all fit. I do that because its fun for me and hopefully those I play with. But I've played plenty of fun games where the DM didn't know and didn't care much about the lore and history, which worked out just fine. Heck most of the 5E hardcover books despite being placed in the Realms are fairly light on lore, but have still been excellent to play through. It's all the Realms. It doesn't have to be the way I would do it. |
| Azar |
Posted - 07 Oct 2021 : 00:09:07
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
It's not my intent to be rude or dodge the question, but I don't like litmus tests. The cool thing about D&D and the Realms is you can make them your own. If I run a game, I try to involve a fair bit of lore, but I don't balk if someone else runs a Realms game that reimagines things.
What does "The Forgotten Realms" mean to you? |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 06 Oct 2021 : 23:56:23
It's not my intent to be rude or dodge the question, but I don't like litmus tests. The cool thing about D&D and the Realms is you can make them your own. If I run a game, I try to involve a fair bit of lore, but I don't balk if someone else runs a Realms game that reimagines things. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 05 Oct 2021 : 23:18:57
Interesting question. My campaigns generally occur pre 1e timeline so that players who really know the Realms can use some...but not all...of their knowledge to navigate the setting. My main 'litmus test' though is to make it really FEEL like the Realms through unique spells/magic items and to include at least a couple of power groups from the setting. My last campaign had the PCs meet a young Shandril Shessair before her ability to manifest spellfire (she was about 9 years old). |
| Azar |
Posted - 04 Oct 2021 : 15:33:30
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just one thing about good/evil and fundamentals and things changing, etc.... it should be noted that concepts like a spell that detects good and evil is no longer part of the game. Spells that detect people's alignments are no longer a part of the game. You can still do spells that might let you read someone's mind for instance, but you can't get a "hello, this guy's evil so its ok to stick him with a sword" detection. You have to sift through what they think, and may get an unclear picture, or may be lied to and not realize it, etc.... and then use your judgment over whether it is right or wrong to kill them.
New monsters being written up aren't even given alignments. That being said, few of them are being given clear motivations, etc... I won't say alignment will go away, but it being a placard that clearly delineates a person's mindset is going away.... and honestly, I'm of mixed feelings on that.
AD&D, AD&D 2e, D&D 3e, D&D 3.5e, D&D 4e, Pathfinder and Pathfinder 2e will still exist. Then, there's all of those D&D clones. Also, who knows how 6e (still a ways off, yes?) will surprise consumers.
The desire to just sit down and vanquish villains isn't in danger of going the way of the dodo. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Oct 2021 : 14:21:57
Just one thing about good/evil and fundamentals and things changing, etc.... it should be noted that concepts like a spell that detects good and evil is no longer part of the game. Spells that detect people's alignments are no longer a part of the game. You can still do spells that might let you read someone's mind for instance, but you can't get a "hello, this guy's evil so its ok to stick him with a sword" detection. You have to sift through what they think, and may get an unclear picture, or may be lied to and not realize it, etc.... and then use your judgment over whether it is right or wrong to kill them.
New monsters being written up aren't even given alignments. That being said, few of them are being given clear motivations, etc... I won't say alignment will go away, but it being a placard that clearly delineates a person's mindset is going away.... and honestly, I'm of mixed feelings on that. |
| Azar |
Posted - 03 Oct 2021 : 22:12:14
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Hah, here is the thing. You can't ask for verisimilitude and then use justifications like "medieval stasis". Those two things are mutually exclusive, specifically in the Realms, were there are no actual reasons for such stasis to be maintained. Because, yes, medieval stasis needs a logical reason to happen, as the page you linked points out.
And, like the last century has enough RSEs to justify any changes to the status quo. The last one a mere decade ago, by the current Realms' year in 5e.
Nah. "A wizard did it." is good enough to cover almost every instance. In the Realms, "The gods did it." usually does the heavy lifting when nothing else will suffice.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromark X
And the so-called "fundamentals" are changing, whether we like it or not.
Well, no, the fundamentals of the hobby are unchanging; these basics (e.g., good versus evil and scary monsters among other elements) are the bedrock on which everything else rests. What you probably mean is "The minimum standards of what is required to be presently marketable in the tabletop gaming industry.". Yes, those are mutable by comparison.
Anyhow, we could continue circling the whirlpool until ragnarok, but I see little point in continuing. You're allowed to have your opinion on Alignment and whether people would be terrified/aggressive towards beings bearing a strong resemblance to particularly dreaded monsters. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 03 Oct 2021 : 20:29:54
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
3,000 or 30,000 or 300,000 is all a blink of an eye. The exact figure is - quite frankly - immaterial. Those zeros backing what we perceive to be an impressive span of time don't matter much when a setting is comfortably abiding by Medieval Stasis. Any change to the status quo is often an event of epic proportions instead of "business as usual". People fear fiends and dragons "today" the same way they did millennia ago.
Hah, here is the thing. You can't ask for verisimilitude and then use justifications like "medieval stasis". Those two things are mutually exclusive, specifically in the Realms, were there are no actual reasons for such stasis to be maintained. Because, yes, medieval stasis needs a logical reason to happen, as the page you linked points out.
And, like the last century has enough RSEs to justify any changes to the status quo. The last one a mere decade ago, by the current Realms' year in 5e.
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I know that a few settings* like to play fast-and-loose with Alignment (Planescape is focused on Law versus Chaos...there are CELESTIAL BEINGS making literal deals with the devil and somehow keeping their Good Alignment, for Pete's sake), but The Forgotten Realms still has black-and-white good versus evil in addition to the wide range of moral greyness. There are unabashedly evil "mortal" races in the mix. Detect Evil is a well-established spell/power. One cannot cheat the cosmic forces of ethics and morality forever.
At the end of the day, people want their escapism. Even if another world awash in murky morality makes for an occasionally interesting diversion, the classics - dare I say, fundamentals - will never be abandoned.
Thing is, said cosmic forces doesn't exist, per Planescape. And the so-called "fundamentals" are changing, whether we like it or not. |
| lordsknight185 |
Posted - 03 Oct 2021 : 07:00:10
I was not trying to start an argument nor do I think I really had a point. I apologize for my poor communication skills. My response was merely consoling my own confusion about someone who would automatically lose all fun- having in a forgotten realms game if waterdeep or the red wizards were mentioned, merely because the subjects are popular. |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 03 Oct 2021 : 05:46:14
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Kelcimer, I would argue that a Forgotten Realms DM doing their job right will naturally incentivize players* - be it subconsciously or consciously - to take an active interest in the lore.
I don't know how this exactly speaks to lordsknight185's point. His point seemed to be that regardless of how good of a role-player the player was and regardless of how well their character comported with the world, if the person's interest and appreciation in the Realms lore did not cross some threshold that that contributed to a negative experience for him.
• I have had some great players who are perhaps more knowledgable about the Realms than I am and they are great to have in the game.
• I have also had some great players who probably knew hardly any more about the Realms than what I presented them between in-game play and out-of-game conversation. They are also great to have in the game.
• I can also think of a player I used to know who has a lot of FR knowledge, but I wouldn't want at my table.
My point being that the level of a players knowledge and appreciation for the lore is fairly independent of how the player contributes to a Forgotten Realms game.
I know that, as a player, when I am running in someone else's game, I'm not terribly interested in learning everything there is about the published campaign setting they are using. As I am thinking about it, there are a couple good reasons for this. I don't want to accidentally become more of an expert on a world than the DM. If he is changing some part of the world to run his game, then I'd rather just get his version. Also, if he is using something in the world that is well known to players, but not to the inhabitants of the world, then I can better play my characters surprise at the thing. By keeping my player knowledge the same as my character knowledge, that means I don't have to worry about keeping them separate and can more immersively role-play.
Heck, even if I'm playing in a different part of Faerun, I don't want to read up exhaustively on the area. I'm remembering when I played in a game near and in Thay. I read enough to get the gist of the area, talked with the DM about what my character would know, and was off to the races. |
| Azar |
Posted - 03 Oct 2021 : 04:39:04
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Hello Lord Karsus!
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
So what if other players are not taking a deep interest in the lore? Their characters wouldn't know all of that lore. As long as they are playing their characters consistent with the world as presented by the DM, then what does it matter that the players don't have a deep appreciation of the lore? Why should that impact your enjoyment of the game?
-I can't speak for him, but that would 100% impact my enjoyment of the game. I've never DMed a campaign in the Forgotten Realms, when I do play it is in my own homebrewed world. Part of my enjoyment as a DM is to share my world via the game to the players and to see them then take it in, learn about it, interact with it, and enjoy it. Playing in a pre-made world that you love, I would assume the feeling is very much the same, feeling enjoyment by sharing your love of the world and seeing the players get enjoyment from it and also love it.
-Obviously, you need to know your players. I've played with people who didn't really give much of a damn about anything that wasn't combat or combat-related (buying/selling gear, questing for items, leveling up, etc.). I got less enjoyment with those players because the level of emotions that I was putting into things weren't reciprocated equally (even though they were having fun). I've played with people who, in the course of the game, wanted details and information of things that I didn't even prepare for, because I didn't think those kinds of details would be needed/relevant. Everybody has to be on the same wavelength in terms of playing styles.
I think there is a minor bit of confusion. He wasn't saying that the other players were not into roleplaying. You can have players who are totally into the roleplaying, they find the world interesting, but they don't spend any time out-of-game learning about FR beyond maybe character creation. It is just not on their list of priorities. Basically the majority of the info they get about FR is what is presented to them in-game. They are medium to great role-players, just they don't have more than a passing interest in learning about the Realms.
For clarity, as long as the players are into the world, roleplaying, and playing their characters consistent with the world as presented by the DM, then what does it matter that the players don't have a deep appreciation of the lore?
Kelcimer, I would argue that a Forgotten Realms DM doing their job right will naturally incentivize players* - be it subconsciously or consciously - to take an active interest in the lore. Richness of background is this setting's strength...the same strength that others scorn. Embrace it, I say.
* Granted, each group will require different balances of give-and-take; some players are voracious enough to accept the whole shebang while others need to be drip-fed. |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 03 Oct 2021 : 03:12:49
Hello Lord Karsus!
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
So what if other players are not taking a deep interest in the lore? Their characters wouldn't know all of that lore. As long as they are playing their characters consistent with the world as presented by the DM, then what does it matter that the players don't have a deep appreciation of the lore? Why should that impact your enjoyment of the game?
-I can't speak for him, but that would 100% impact my enjoyment of the game. I've never DMed a campaign in the Forgotten Realms, when I do play it is in my own homebrewed world. Part of my enjoyment as a DM is to share my world via the game to the players and to see them then take it in, learn about it, interact with it, and enjoy it. Playing in a pre-made world that you love, I would assume the feeling is very much the same, feeling enjoyment by sharing your love of the world and seeing the players get enjoyment from it and also love it.
-Obviously, you need to know your players. I've played with people who didn't really give much of a damn about anything that wasn't combat or combat-related (buying/selling gear, questing for items, leveling up, etc.). I got less enjoyment with those players because the level of emotions that I was putting into things weren't reciprocated equally (even though they were having fun). I've played with people who, in the course of the game, wanted details and information of things that I didn't even prepare for, because I didn't think those kinds of details would be needed/relevant. Everybody has to be on the same wavelength in terms of playing styles.
I think there is a minor bit of confusion. He wasn't saying that the other players were not into roleplaying. You can have players who are totally into the roleplaying, they find the world interesting, but they don't spend any time out-of-game learning about FR beyond maybe character creation. It is just not on their list of priorities. Basically the majority of the info they get about FR is what is presented to them in-game. They are medium to great role-players, just they don't have more than a passing interest in learning about the Realms.
For clarity, as long as the players are into the world, roleplaying, and playing their characters consistent with the world as presented by the DM, then what does it matter that the players don't have a deep appreciation of the lore? |
| Azar |
Posted - 02 Oct 2021 : 20:56:14
sleyvas is here to save the dayvas. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Oct 2021 : 20:25:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
I continue to use the 3E population demographic break downs when I need to randomly fill a room or even when I'm at a loss as to what race to make an NPC. I loved that those were published. There are some regions that have Orcs or Lizardfolk or even Yuan-ti populations large enough to have their own percentages. But for the most part every region has a 1% other catch all where all these non-traditional even some of the rare traditional races fit. Even Waterdeep with its metropolitan nature and its high abundance of non-human races still breaks down since there is an even higher density of humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes, and halflings living there.
To the points made above there are regions where things are very different than the Heartlands. If you look in the Underdark book from 3E, you get some interesting places like Gatchorof 98% githyanki and 2% Red Dragon or Ch'Chitl its free population is 98% illithid and 2% illithilich and its thrall population of 95% quaggoth, 1% drow, 1% duergar, 1% human, 1% shield dwarf, 1% svirfneblin. It goes on, there are plenty of hidden places with populations large enough of goblins, kobolds, azers, trolls, beholders, grimlocks, minotaurs, and ogres all to be enough to get their own percentage. Found one where outsider was 5% rather than being lumped into the other category. Undrek’Thoz has a 1% tiefling population.
In places like Waterdeep, I picture it to be like some bars and such in our world where they become known as gathering points for a group from elsewhere or with certain lifestyle views. So, like in New York there's bars that cater to Canadians, etc... We know that in Waterdeep there's at least one bar that caters to elves. I'd bet Waterdeep has a few bars where it might be common to find a mix of cultures (even moreso in Skullport though). However, these places would probably be known for this feature, so people going there would likely know what to expect. If a party is going to a place like this, it would be something that the DM should stress "this might be a culture shock" OR if members of the party are from these groups "it feels like coming home".
Read up on the Misty Beard, in Volo's Guide to Waterdeep. There's also the Crawling Spider, for those that find comfort in an Underdark-like setting. And IIRC, the Bowels of the Earth has a primarily dwarven clientele.
Yep, I figured there were more. I have never really spent a lot of time perusing Volo's Guide to Waterdeep. Actually in querying the misty beard, this appears to be a good link that shows a lot of similar things to what I described.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hum_forgotten_realms/a-tourist-s-guide-to-waterdeep-t34.html |
| Azar |
Posted - 02 Oct 2021 : 16:45:27
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yeah. With 30000 years of recorded history, no matter how well guarded you have some info, there is certain info that must have to be spread no matter what, or the setting will have no verisimilitude. One of such kinds of info is that of interaction with other peoples. Specially in a setting where merchants are as important as they are in the Realms. Again, the problem is the timespan of the recorded history.
3,000 or 30,000 or 300,000 is all a blink of an eye. The exact figure is - quite frankly - immaterial. Those zeros backing what we perceive to be an impressive span of time don't matter much when a setting is comfortably abiding by Medieval Stasis. Any change to the status quo is often an event of epic proportions instead of "business as usual". People fear fiends and dragons "today" the same way they did millennia ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Also, alignment is another thing that takes away verisimilitude of D&D in general. Even in Planescape they say alignment is what people interprets it is (alignments are not objective, definite things in D&D, as someone more knowledgeable in Planescape than myself explained to me). So really, people judging others by labels such as "evil" based on alignment only paints the Realms in a negative way, seeing that the Evil alignment is just what people determine is evil.
I know that a few settings* like to play fast-and-loose with Alignment (Planescape is focused on Law versus Chaos...there are CELESTIAL BEINGS making literal deals with the devil and somehow keeping their Good Alignment, for Pete's sake), but The Forgotten Realms still has black-and-white good versus evil in addition to the wide range of moral greyness. There are unabashedly evil "mortal" races in the mix. Detect Evil is a well-established spell/power. One cannot cheat the cosmic forces of ethics and morality forever.
At the end of the day, people want their escapism. Even if another world awash in murky morality makes for an occasionally interesting diversion, the classics - dare I say, fundamentals - will never be abandoned.
* You can tell Ravenloft, Dark Sun and Planescape are products of the darker and edgier 90s. Eberron thumbs its nose at Alignment, but it isn't starkly grimdark like the others. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Oct 2021 : 15:18:18
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
So what if other players are not taking a deep interest in the lore? Their characters wouldn't know all of that lore. As long as they are playing their characters consistent with the world as presented by the DM, then what does it matter that the players don't have a deep appreciation of the lore? Why should that impact your enjoyment of the game?
-I can't speak for him, but that would 100% impact my enjoyment of the game. I've never DMed a campaign in the Forgotten Realms, when I do play it is in my own homebrewed world. Part of my enjoyment as a DM is to share my world via the game to the players and to see them then take it in, learn about it, interact with it, and enjoy it. Playing in a pre-made world that you love, I would assume the feeling is very much the same, feeling enjoyment by sharing your love of the world and seeing the players get enjoyment from it and also love it.
-Obviously, you need to know your players. I've played with people who didn't really give much of a damn about anything that wasn't combat or combat-related (buying/selling gear, questing for items, leveling up, etc.). I got less enjoyment with those players because the level of emotions that I was putting into things weren't reciprocated equally (even though they were having fun). I've played with people who, in the course of the game, wanted details and information of things that I didn't even prepare for, because I didn't think those kinds of details would be needed/relevant. Everybody has to be on the same wavelength in terms of playing styles. |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 02 Oct 2021 : 07:14:23
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
Honestly, it's not even the surface details that make it the Forgotten Realms for me. It's the sense that the DM actually likes the setting and is doing his/her best to bring it to life. Whether they get all the details right isn't as important as whether they're genuinely having fun with the lore (exploring it, that is, not purposely re-writing it).
That is a really good answer. |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 02 Oct 2021 : 07:12:05
Hello lordsknight185!
quote:
Originally posted by lordsknight185
I feel like this is the curse of someone who has been as Realms obsessed as us for the past 20 years (or 30+ for alot of the people here!).
It's only a curse if you want it to be. The lore is a starting point. You don't have to be beholden to it. You can ignore it, change it, or whatever. Yes, there is the Realms as published, but the more you play in the world the more your Forgotten Realms becomes YOUR Forgotten Realms. As the players actions have consequences then it will naturally diverge from the realms as published.
quote:
Originally posted by lordsknight185
Sometimes it feels like it would take a game run by Ed Greenwood himself to experience something fresh and exciting.
Are you saying you and your players don't add to the world?
quote:
Originally posted by lordsknight185
I know that when I am a player I will never feel like I am playing in the "real" Realms because most newer players just don't understand or care about anything that hasn't been slapped into a 5e product, and I have come to terms with that.
So what if other players are not taking a deep interest in the lore? Their characters wouldn't know all of that lore. As long as they are playing their characters consistent with the world as presented by the DM, then what does it matter that the players don't have a deep appreciation of the lore? Why should that impact your enjoyment of the game?
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| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 02 Oct 2021 : 06:19:38
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Zeromaru X, the things you mentioned are why I'm not comfortable with The Forgotten Realms being treated as WOTC's testing ground for trendy concepts; there's often little (if any) explanation as to why this dense and storied setting all of a sudden just has these particular elements that supposedly were there all along.
I guess that's the point of treating them as if they were there all along: they don't need explanation if they were there all along. "You just weren't paying attention.  what, do you need explanations? These are your Realms, do your own explanations" (yeah, I hate that kind of standard answers for problems they created).
quote:
3Also, we're talking about a setting where near-instantaneous communication doesn't exist and reliable record keeping tends to either be spotty or fiercely guarded.
Yeah. With 30000 years of recorded history, no matter how well guarded you have some info, there is certain info that must have to be spread no matter what, or the setting will have no verisimilitude. One of such kinds of info is that of interaction with other peoples. Specially in a setting where merchants are as important as they are in the Realms. Again, the problem is the timespan of the recorded history.
Also, alignment is another thing that takes away verisimilitude of D&D in general. Even in Planescape they say alignment is what people interprets it is (alignments are not objective, definite things in D&D, as someone more knowledgeable in Planescape than myself explained to me). So really, people judging others by labels such as "evil" based on alignment only paints the Realms in a negative way, seeing that the Evil alignment is just what people determine is evil. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Oct 2021 : 04:32:51
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
Honestly, it's not even the surface details that make it the Forgotten Realms for me. It's the sense that the DM actually likes the setting and is doing his/her best to bring it to life. Whether they get all the details right isn't as important as whether they're genuinely having fun with the lore (exploring it, that is, not purposely re-writing it).
-This is true. |
| Azar |
Posted - 02 Oct 2021 : 03:40:21
Zeromaru X, the things you mentioned are why I'm not comfortable with The Forgotten Realms being treated as WOTC's testing ground for trendy concepts; there's often little (if any) explanation as to why this dense and storied setting all of a sudden just has these particular elements that supposedly were there all along.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for verisimilitude, there's a lack of verisimilitude when people fear humanoids of other species having had like 30k+ years of recorded history of interactions with said humanoids.
Like those various goblinoids, you mean? I know your stance on Alignment, but put that aside for the moment. All of those humanoids are some flavor of Evil...typically Lawful or Chaotic. Exceptions to these rules are extremely rare. Also, we're talking about a setting where near-instantaneous communication doesn't exist and reliable record keeping tends to either be spotty or fiercely guarded. There's also magic in the mix. It is completely believable that Evil species will continue to be regarded as evil and Good species will continue to be regarded as good.
That is why dropping in two races based on highly feared monsters and expecting them to be treated like any other ordinary human is so jarring. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 02 Oct 2021 : 02:54:28
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Huh? "Furry"? Fur? As far as I know, only the tabaxi (a feline humanoid) sports fur.
Let's talk immersion. There's already a problem - to varying degrees, depending on the group - with with the classic demihumans coming off as "humans in funny suits". When something as comparatively exotic as a tortle (think of a being more bestial than a Ninja Turtle) is subjected to this same treatment (through simple everyday exposure), it becomes boring in a far worse way precisely because of their stark difference. Certain game worlds are a much better fit for this demographic shift than The Forgotten Realms.
Let's talk verisimilitude. How on Earth (ah, Toril?) does it make sense for the average person to flee in terror or at least assume a combative posture when orcs, goblins, bugbears, hobgoblins, et cetera, show up...and yet be totally fine with creatures that either resemble bipedal dragons or hell spawn? At least in Planescape it made sense to see a tiefling every so often: there were far worse monsters lurking in Sigil and it was made clear that an individual tiefling could possibly be of Neutral Alignment. If a drow like Drizzt has to be persistent in his efforts to find acceptance, something that looks like the offspring of a demon or devil should have to struggle just as hard if not harder.
The furry fandom encompasses more than just furred therianthropes. There are sub-divisions such as the scalies (dragonborn fall there). And you need to know no more,  The point is, anthropomorphic animal characters sell, even more than the standard Tolkien-folks, which mean they became a must for D&D, and so in the Realms as long as it is the "flagship setting".
As for the tieflings, they are pretty popular among the LGBTI+ people, so they became a must in D&D, as well. I don't know if aasimar are as popular as their darker siblings.
As for the immersion thing, that's entirely subjective. My sense of immersion is different from yours, and ours is different from that of any other person. So, that's something left up to the DM. I do agree that other settings are better suited for a less Tolkienian population, but the Realms is The D&D setting, so it has to evolve with the times.
As for verisimilitude, there's a lack of verisimilitude when people fear humanoids of other species having had like 30k+ years of recorded history of interactions with said humanoids. These humans aren't like us, who are the only intelligent species here. In such a world like in the Realms, people should not fear humanoids who pose no threat for them. So, yeah, for me is logical that people doesn't panic around a dragonborn, as they are open in their peaceful intentions, while panicking around an orc, as they have had a lot of wars against them over the history. History is the keyword here: if the Realms had less recorded history, things would be different for me.
As for tieflings, you should read the Brimstone Angels novels. That is the Realmslore I use for tieflings. |
| HighOne |
Posted - 02 Oct 2021 : 00:26:20
Honestly, it's not even the surface details that make it the Forgotten Realms for me. It's the sense that the DM actually likes the setting and is doing his/her best to bring it to life. Whether they get all the details right isn't as important as whether they're genuinely having fun with the lore (exploring it, that is, not purposely re-writing it). |
| Azar |
Posted - 02 Oct 2021 : 00:22:54
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I have never considered the Realms as a high magic setting. Magic is not something that has an everyday use in the Realms. Heck, people is still superstitious about magic despite a recorded history of 30k+ years of magic use. To me, a high magic setting is something like World of Warcraft, where even those people that doesn't use magic aren't afraid of it either. Even when magic in that setting is tied to demons...
"High magic" as in "Magic at its upper limits is immensely powerful" as opposed to "common magic" or perhaps "integrated magic" a la Eberron. Wizards can shear off the tops of mountains but they can't have four to five low to mid level spells concurrently in effect?
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, fantasy nowadays has evolved from its Tolkienian roots, and D&D has to follow this evolution or risk less sells... so, the Realms has to evolve as well. The furry culture is stronk now, and this means the Realms will be populated by beast folk sooner rater than later.
Huh? "Furry"? Fur? As far as I know, only the tabaxi (a feline humanoid) sports fur.
Let's talk immersion. There's already a problem - to varying degrees, depending on the group - with with the classic demihumans coming off as "humans in funny suits". When something as comparatively exotic as a tortle (think of a being more bestial than a Ninja Turtle) is subjected to this same treatment (through simple everyday exposure), it becomes boring in a far worse way precisely because of their stark difference. Certain game worlds are a much better fit for this demographic shift than The Forgotten Realms.
Let's talk verisimilitude. How on Earth (ah, Toril?) does it make sense for the average person to flee in terror or at least assume a combative posture when orcs, goblins, bugbears, hobgoblins, et cetera, show up...and yet be totally fine with creatures that either resemble bipedal dragons or hell spawn? At least in Planescape it made sense to see a tiefling every so often: there were far worse monsters lurking in Sigil and it was made clear that an individual tiefling could possibly be of Neutral Alignment. If a drow like Drizzt has to be persistent in his efforts to find acceptance, something that looks like the offspring of a demon or devil should have to struggle just as hard if not harder. |
| Gelcur |
Posted - 01 Oct 2021 : 23:37:09
Oh the Misty Beard, a quest I ran made a stop there. The party's dwarven tank spent the night expecting a fight because a minotaur kept eyeing him from across the room. Things were about the escalate when the minotaur finally came over and asked the dwarf to dance. She had decided early on that he would make for strong breeding stock for warrior children, but she wasn't sure if he was hairy enough or horny enough for her liking. Good times. |
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