| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mannimark |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 23:18:33
I have a theory I wanted to toss out for the community to pick at.
Mystra has apparently warned Elminster that he needs to prevent a future calamity where society turns against mages en masse. Given how dependent society is on magic this seems unlikely.
But...when Mystra was murdered it caused a tidal wave that smashed into Lantan and drowned much of the country. Then a few of the islands went over into Abeir where, one would assume, nations ruled by dragons tried to enslave them for a time before the islands translated back.
If I was a peaceful scientifically minded gnome-dad and a spat between some gods I didn't know or care about smashed into my city and drowned my wife and kids, I'd be pretty upset. And if the island I was on then got thrown into another world where I got to see, quite brutally, what a world ruled by nation states governed by feuding magical tyrants (dragons) looked like, I'd be pretty shocked.
And after all that, assuming my fellow countrymen and I had scratched together the technology to resist all this (firearms and cannons), if I got dumped back into Faerun...I might get to thinking gods and mages really weren't a good idea anymore. I might, say, start mass manufacturing firearms and selling them to people heading back to the mainland.
Normal people have no chance against the subculture of arcanists (largely fostered by Mystra) who effectively rule the world; they need priests for healing magic, and wizards overshadow those without magic to a ludicrous degree.
But the Lantanese can.
Not only that, but they have a very good reason to do so. It was Mystra, Shar, and Cyric who murdered them. The grieving and psychologically traumatized people of Lantan (many of whom are gnomes who live many centuries and remember quite vividly what happened) may show up at some point to "make the world a better place".
The Harpers exist to preserve history, knowledge, and freedom. Those are great things. But they also exist to undermine governments and force the world to remain fractured into a patchwork of cottage city-states. The only people a world like this really benefits are magicians. The more powerful governments are the less powerful individual wizards are, and vice versa. So in a way it almost seems like the Harpers are rubes who talk a good game but ultimately exist as an espionage network to stymie any sort of political movement which has the potential to make mages vulnerable or obsolete.
I can imagine what would happen if a printing press started churning out political cartoons depicting wizards as lazy overseers who use their spells to live in comfort while everyone else has to work hard and scrabble in the dirt. One morning they're all over Baldur's Gate. It's hard to kill an idea once it takes root...
If any of this is true, then the quiet of the gods makes sense. They are afraid that their petty brawling and the abuses it inflicted on the world might cause people to turn their backs on them. The old Tablets of Fate were smashed, so all the prophesies before a certain point are now void. But this prediction happened *after* Ao remade them.
If we accept that Kelemvor is going to grab anyone who doesn't kowtow to the gods and shove them into a wall after death, then suddenly the gods look more like tyrants and bullies. But there are other spiritual paths available to mortals...philosophies and dharmas and such which don't take the form of a personality cult at all.
I'm sure most readers will rip this apart, since a setting like that would not be the "Forgotten Realms" anymore. But if you look at all the evidence laying around... |
| 6 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 17:14:34
One thing I've been proposing is that in the early 1370's a newer trade enclave was established in Anchorome near Fort Flame (the Flaming Fist was already trying to find someone who could bring them people capable of making alchemical Calishite Fire.... I figure Thayans can do that easily). Then the Thayan civil war started pushing non-mage civilians (many of whom are craftsmen) to take up residence in far flung enclaves, and since this place would be "land for the taking"... there might be a bit of a land rush to this location in the ten years leading up to the spellplague. Some of these folks might see their homeland turning into a sh*thole due to the war and starting to consider forming a new home in Anchorome, one in which the actual number of mages located there are a lot less. Still, the use of magic enables them to transform this new home relatively quickly... and then the spellplague happens and they transfer to Abeir. These craftsmen however start encountering cultures in Anchorome whose magic is performed VIA crafting (because pluma, hishna, fetish, and talisman crafting are all established means in Anchorome/Maztica) or who use crafting items to metamagically enhance magic. This magic may be less flashy than classic wizard finger wiggling, but it might fall in line somewhat with the idea of artificers.... but maybe artificers who are less "using guns, using clockwork creations, etc...". This type of magic might also work in Abeir, because Ed has implied in some posts in the past that the magic of Abeir tends to be more object oriented.
It might also open more study along the way of non-magical technology as well within Anchorome while within Abeir. I'm not talking necessarily about having them come back with Eberron like trains everywhere, etc... but wind and water mills might be more common to aid things like agriculture and textile creation. Also, the mulan people of Thay have links to the "artificers" of Mulhorand, who its documented had been long studying ideas like steam engine technology using "sunstones" (effectively something like uranium in a nuclear reactor without necessarily the radiation... maybe). They had been using this technology to get water to outlying farms prior to the Pharaoh banning the use of such technologies (how isn't explained, but presumably pipelines to allow steam to move UPhill... possibly using sea water and turning it fresh?).
Some people might view this idea as promoting colonialism in the world, but I honestly just see it as a natural progression. I'm not seeing anything where the whole continent comes back technologically advanced.... but SPOTS of technology do make sense to me. I also see them possibly trying to HIDE their technology if they can from their neighbors, because unlike America.... many many many more of their neighbors would be very different from them (i.e. a thri-kreen civilization for instance), and some of them would see no problem with eating these interlopers from Faerun (concepts that Europeans didn't really face all that often as I understand it... cannibalism wasn't necessarily rampant as an issue). So, even as mages are highly secretive and hiding their discoveries, so might these technologists be, and sharing their discoveries only within their home communities.
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| Kelcimer |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 08:12:46
Hello Mannimark!
Sounds like this is helping you flesh out the idea. Cool!
quote:
Originally posted by Mannimark
The argument is that power attracts the corruptible, so allowing the existence of beings with that sort of power ensures that eventually the bad ones will pull stuff like that. Because they have already done so, over and over and over again.
Solzhenitsyn said, “[T]he line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." And the Germans have an expression that translates as "opportunity creates thieves". Power corrupts and it attracts people who most want to be corrupted. So the systems of power granted by better organization and technology will still be there to corrupt. The solution to deal with this in the real world is a decentralization of power and systems of accountability to keep the damage of potential abuses on as small a scale as possible. How to apply this to mages in Faerun would be a challenge. But in order to have a good story, you don't need to. You just need to have opposing forces slugging it out secure in their own perspective.
That gnome-dad has an axe to grind and needs to release his pain upon those who are deserving. That is a cool revenge story.
quote:
Originally posted by Mannimark
Remember, it is CANON that Mystra has warned Elminster that at some future point it is highly likely that society will turn against the supernatural. It's in the books already. [...] My point is that it seems this is somewhere the setting may be going.
It may go somewhere. I dunno. I haven't kept up with the changes to the setting since 4e came out.
quote:
Originally posted by Mannimark
Cannons rendered castles obsolete because sieges were over in a single day. The political, medical, and physical sciences have long been ignored in favor of magic. If you embrace a paradigm of science then you get things like social conditioning, printing presses, double-entry accounting, best-practice education, industrialized manufacturing, and bureaucratic techniques allowing manpower to be mobilized on a scale the world has never seen. These things are not as "impressive" as fireballs and teleport spells; they are a different sort of power that is for everyone to weild instead of a handful of powerful individuals. The more wealth and security the public gains, the less needed mages are.
There would be a lot of moving parts to it, so I imagine it would be challenging to manage.If you properly handle it, then that kind of blended setting could be pretty cool.
quote:
Originally posted by Mannimark
When I first got into FR I had the same view of Harpers. Their self-avowed mission is to preserve knowledge and prevent misuse of power through espionage and underhanded means. Originally that meant they were super cool magical spy "good guys", but as time went on they gained the additional goal of preventing governments from becoming too large or powerful because that supposedly leads to oppression and abuse. This had the side-effect of gaining them a reputation as meddlers who kept the world fractious and disorganized, which is what allows monsters to thrive. It's a paradise for adventurers of course, but not so great for farmers. And yeah, they're disorganized and obsessed with preventing positive change. So I agree with you fully. Perhaps they could use some formal rebranding.
As I'm thinking about it, perhaps the Harpers could turn into a straight up bad guy organization. They suffer the same problem the Zhentarium suffer, which is a lack of coherent goals and concentration of resources to achieve those goals.
In my own game I have allowed them to basically dissolve as they should have long ago, with their respective members joining organizations that do have coherent goals and concentration of resources to achieve those goals. That has been in the background though, something that I have in my DM notes to account for them in the world, but haven't brought into the actual game.
But I could.
Given how disorganized the harpers have traditionally been, it makes sense that there really should be a lot of splinter groups over the years. Not just the Tel'Teukiira. And why not a lot of groups that claim to be Harpers without any actual affiliation to the group(s)? |
| Mannimark |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 19:14:53
Thanks, guys for all the feedback! I'll try to respond to all the points as they've come up...
The idea of an evil gnome realm worshipping Shar and turning away from the Gnome gods is very cool and thematically appropriate. Especially since Shar is the goddess of loss, and in the aftermath of the Spellplague and Second Sundering people lost so much. It would be a fun campaign to have the Gnome gods return and try to set things right. Garl Glittergold is a greater god on par with Corellon Larethian or Moradin or Yondalla or Semuanya or any of the other demihuman primogenitor deities. He has millions of worshippers across numerous prime material worlds, so I imagine he and his pantheon (Baervon Wildwanderer, Callurduran Smoothands, etc.) wouldn't take crap from Shar.
Yes, I would strongly consider a revitalized Athar if we wanted to delve into Planescape. In fact, that's a fantastic idea and I think I'm going to take it for my campaign. The Factions didn't all disband after all, or even get kicked out of Sigil, they just stopped existing as political entities and having rallies for fear of getting Mazed. I believe they had to abandon their headquarters too, at least those who had them. As for the cult of Asmodeus...depends on which version we're using. If we are using the "Asmodeus is a giant snake at the bottom of Nessus who can eat all the mortal souls who don't worship deities" then yeah, I'm sure his cult would try to support it. But I'm sure they'd have to be very subtle about it or they'd get purged too. Gnomes are intelligent and long-lived. I'm sure if the Lantanese got any inkling that some magical group out there was trying to manipulate them from the shadows (like everyone in Faerun thinks they're clever enough to do) they'd target them immediately.
And Kelcimer...this is a big topic. Here's my take on it;
I'm not trying to vilify mages. But the fact is, most major villains and tyrannical empires throughout history (Netheril, Thay, etc.) have been driven by magical power held in the hands of the few. Faerun is/was a world where arcanists formed an elite upper crust of "special people". In the golden days of the Ed Greenwood novels, the world was basically "Lock Stock And Two Smoking Barrels" meets "Super Sayan Fight Night". If you weren't a mage you couldn't do anything important because if you did a mage would come along and manipulate or mind-control you.
As for the "rest of the world not being that way", you are correct. But that's not the issue. The issue is that the few people who *were* that way did massive jerk things. People don't remember the archmages and gods who were quiet and peaceful, they remember the ones who blew them up or tidal waved their homelands. And the argument isn't that all supernaturally powerful beings are bad. The argument is that power attracts the corruptible, so allowing the existence of beings with that sort of power ensures that eventually the bad ones will pull stuff like that. Because they have already done so, over and over and over again.
Also, a gnome-dad who had his family drowned and then got thrown into dragon-tyrant-world for several years isn't a super level-headed emotionally stable guy. Neither are his several thousand steamship driving canon toting pals. They WILL vilify gods and mages quite readily, and rightly so. Some stupid gods they never worshipped or wanted anything to do with got into a childish Super-Sayan fight and sent a tidal wave crashing into their homeland where it massacred hundreds of thousands of innocent people, and they're expected to take it quietly because "the gods are mighty and not to be offended"? Gnome-dad already lost everything to divine abuse. He isn't inclined to listen to arguments. He's gonna paper the cities of the Sword Coast with political satire cartoons and broadsheets demonizing gods and condemning spellcasters as indolent "bourgeois" who caused the apocalypse and now live lives of ease while everyone else has to work hard and heap them with adulation. And his message will probably find fertile soil.
Remember, it is CANON that Mystra has warned Elminster that at some future point it is highly likely that society will turn against the supernatural. It's in the books already. The gods are getting very quiet now. Guns are starting to show up, and if you read Dragon Heist there's nothing in there about them being unreliable. My point is that it seems this is somewhere the setting may be going.
Regarding monsters...you're absolutely correct. This is what I meant when I said society has no feasible way of getting rid of arcanists. That's also why the Lantanese could actually do it. If firearms technology took a big leap forward (became reliable) and large stable governments formed despite the efforts of the Harpers to keep the world fractured into city-states, then none of those critters would stand a chance. Large disciplined armies of Napoleonic soldiers with muskets and 12-lb cannons could decimate all that stuff. Cannons rendered castles obsolete because sieges were over in a single day. The political, medical, and physical sciences have long been ignored in favor of magic. If you embrace a paradigm of science then you get things like social conditioning, printing presses, double-entry accounting, best-practice education, industrialized manufacturing, and bureaucratic techniques allowing manpower to be mobilized on a scale the world has never seen. These things are not as "impressive" as fireballs and teleport spells; they are a different sort of power that is for everyone to weild instead of a handful of powerful individuals. The more wealth and security the public gains, the less needed mages are.
Regarding the realms as a whole making sense...yeah, you're right. The "regional" nature of these cosmic upheavals is something that was never addressed at all. A few weak attempts were made, but Faerun is a huge planet. It is never discussed what the sundering did to places like Zakhara or Kara-Tur. If we believe the weave encompasses the entire planet, then presumably all this apocalyptic nonsense impacted other countries and peoples. The spell plague burned people alive, mutated them, drove them mad, and caused destructive freak weather. There should have been angry armies pouring into the North from other parts of the globe waiving swords and demanding to know why their capital just transposed to another dimension and why portions of the countryside just got melted.
When I first got into FR I had the same view of Harpers. Their self-avowed mission is to preserve knowledge and prevent misuse of power through espionage and underhanded means. Originally that meant they were super cool magical spy "good guys", but as time went on they gained the additional goal of preventing governments from becoming too large or powerful because that supposedly leads to oppression and abuse. This had the side-effect of gaining them a reputation as meddlers who kept the world fractious and disorganized, which is what allows monsters to thrive. It's a paradise for adventurers of course, but not so great for farmers. And yeah, they're disorganized and obsessed with preventing positive change. So I agree with you fully. Perhaps they could use some formal rebranding. |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 03:32:46
Hello Mannimark!
I don't know as why "society at large" across Faerun would turn against mages as such. Yeah, a well prepared wizard can kill a lot of folks, but that is through the careful stockpiling of resources. People who put a lot of energy into the accumulation of resources tend to be relatively careful in expending those resources. What makes sense to me is that most wizards would prefer to enter into a working relationship with a city-state or organization to be paid handsomely for when magic is needed, and leave the whole bureaucracy and tax collecting to people more specialized in those tasks.
Another thing to remember is this world is populated by all sorts of monsters. These monsters are a fairly constant source of disruption to civilization. Mages do a lot of good in putting monsters down. When given a choice between civilization and monsters, most wizards would choose civilization. After all civilization makes it a lot easier to get spell components and get comfy slippers.
So say individual society gets tied of mages and does a purge of mages. What happens a short while later? The society isn't as able to withstand any number of monster attacks. It might take a few decades as various administrations are increasingly inefficient in defending society from the wilderness, but eventually you have a market for some folks who know how to sling area of effect spells to great effect.
quote:
Originally posted by Mannimark
I might, say, start mass manufacturing firearms and selling them to people heading back to the mainland.
I don't know what the specific rules are on firearms, but I generally understand them to be slightly unreliable, with low rate of fire, limited range, and expensive to obtain and repair. If that is correct, then they shouldn't catch on.
If they are reliable, decent rate of fire, relatively inexpensive, decent range, and easy to maintain; then yeah, they could catch on. I don't know how much that would necessarily affect things.
Okay, if they were imported to Thay where you actually have a wizard class lording it over everyone, then yeah, revolts would happen and wizards would have to be looking over their shoulders at every hedge. But most of Faerun isn't like that. In most of Faerun I could still see mages being useful, because they would still be able to do a lot of things that guns couldn't.
quote:
Originally posted by Mannimark
The Harpers exist to preserve history, knowledge, and freedom. Those are great things. But they also exist to undermine governments and force the world to remain fractured into a patchwork of cottage city-states.
I don't know that Harpers exist to preserve history, knowledge, and freedom. When I first got into Forgotten Realms they seemed cool, but as I got older they seemed more like a "world without borders" order of tree hugging hippies who meddled in the affairs of other peoples on a regular basis largely "in secret" and largely unaccountable. They never promoted a coherent idea of how to organize society around freedom. They seemed more inclined to preserve the status quo than to promote positive change.
quote:
Originally posted by Mannimark
I'm sure most readers will rip this apart, since a setting like that would not be the "Forgotten Realms" anymore. But if you look at all the evidence laying around...
Eh. Do what you want. If you only look at one small portion of the Realms, then it makes sense. But if you zoom out and look at it as a whole...it doesn't make sense.
In order to run Forgotten Realms well, I think a DM needs to decide what parts he is going to keep and what parts he will ignore or throw out. This is guaranteed to create quite a range of customized Forgotten Realms. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 00:40:07
This sounds less atheism and more like antitheism. After all, the gods certainly existed and meddled in mortal affairs. If you want to introduce new elements, would you consider a revitalized Athar and/or the Cult of Asmodeus stepping up activity?
The OP really suggests Asmodean involvement if you allow 2E Guide to Hell lore. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 23:45:27
In another thread, Eric joked about an evil gnome kingdom. I ran with that and have come up with something similar with the Kingdom of the Wailing Caves. This place was hit hard by the Spellplague and the gnomes there turned away from the gnome gods (Garl and the rest got demoted) so they embraced Shar. I am thinking of putting them in the Giant's Run Mountains. They have similar motivations to what you listed so I don't see what you are proposing is bad. BUT, I still haven't worked out how they will react after the Second Sundering. Once Garl and crew get's their mojo back, I don't see them NOT reaching out to any gnomes that have lost the faith. As you said, there will be gnomes who remember the old times and when a chosen of Garl shows up and helps to restore things to the way they were, that may be enough to convert at least some of the wayward back. That could lead to a civil war in that society and then you could have Garl's chosen asking outsiders for help.
Or, if the wayward community has drifted far away from the old faiths, I could see a TEAM of gnome chosen, one from each gnome god, show up to set the gnomes on the straight and level again. That could be very interesting, too. |
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