| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 21 Aug 2021 : 23:24:36
I have come to the opinion that Manshoon is an idiot. This is not an opinion that is lightly formed, as it has been 20 years in the making. I have also figured out an in game explanation for why Manshoon was so muddled in the head. My apologies for the length of this post. I recognize that a lot of people here really like Manshoon. I don't mean this to detract from your enjoyment of the character in anyway. Consider this an alternative interpretation. I just really wanted to articulate my thoughts on Manshoon to a group of people who would be able to properly appreciate it. Even if they may sharply disagree with my conclusion.
My campaign in Forgotten Realms stretches back to the late 90's and is really 8 different campaigns in total. So many events have happened in my game in that time, that my Forgotten Realms differs very sharply in a number of ways due to divergent history. Basically, I acknowledge that everything in the Campaign Setting Book was true in 1372, but events since then have made the reality on the ground quite different.
I did not use the Zhentarium in my early games and, as my game progressed, areas where the Zhents operated were subsumed by other events. Eventually, I realized that, quite unintentionally, the Zhents had been taking it on the chin just about everywhere.
Most particularly at the end of my third campaign that caused what is known as the March of Cormanthor, where the forest grew over Northern Sembia and throughout the Tesh River Valley. The consciousness that was directing the growth was more concerned about Sembia, but it also didn't like the Zhents and so it made sense that it would grow the forest in that direction as well. In context of the march of Cormanthor there was the question of what would happen with Zhentil Keep itself. I didn't really have a purpose for it as a ruined city that could serve as a destination or as an actual living city, so I decided that one of the Manshoons had (somehow) shifted it to another plane or pocket dimension.
Meanwhile, in real life, I have over the course of years become a buff on history, economics, geography, politics, and how they intersect one another. As I ran my game over the past two decades, I have applied that knowledge to my game.
About five years ago, I realized that I had unintentionally caused the Zhents to take it on the chin for so long. I tried to think about how I could have them come back and what I could do with Manshoon Prime who was theoretically still attached to Zhentil Keep. I liked the idea of the Zhentarium. I liked the idea of Manshoon. But I can't run a bad guy unless I can understand what they want. I looked at the history of Manshoon to figure out what he wanted. I ultimately realized he was unusable to me as a DM for my game. He had spent a hundred years making sure the Zhentarium was a low level threat across much of Faerun, but never concentrated his power in any one place. To what purpose? Based upon what he had put his energies towards and what he had to show for it, I couldn't say he was competent.
I know the out of game reason for this, because the purpose of Manshoon and his Zhentarium was to be a shadowy threat to players wherever they may be in the world. But the world needs to make sense within itself. I couldn't think of an actual in game reason for Manshoon to have been so incompetent. So I shelved the idea of using him as a badguy. I had, in the background, knew where there were several Manshoon clones still active. (None of them had ever made an in-game appearance. I just wanted to know roughly where they were just in case.) I decided they would all quietly go away.
But all of this is not what made me decide that Manshoon was an idiot.
In the new campaign I am working on, I wound up setting it in the Moonsea area and have run a few sessions in and around Phlan. The March of Cormanthor happened in 1375-1376, it is now in the mid 1380's, and I am considering the geopolitical situation of Phlan (of all places).
From my notes: "Phlan commands the Stojanow River Valley. Bounded by the north by the Dragonspire Mountains, the east by Cormanthor, and the south by the Moonsea, the only soft border it has is with the Grey Land of Thar, but the River Stowjanow provides a hard defensive line to the orcs in the east. Phlan’s population is bolstered by many former residents of the Tesh River Valley, which both makes it more economically productive, but also provides more manpower to see to the defense of the far side of the Stojanow River."
But what was it's situation before? And then I really looked at the geography that Manshoon had to deal with for a century and that is when I realized he is a complete idiot, no getting around it.
History is replete with nations that first come into being by commanding an entire river valley. The reason for this is simple. The lowlands near the mouth of the river are going to be both better agriculturally and commercially due to being in a superb position to trade on the water. This means that the city-state at the mouth of a river valley will, over time, naturally become wealthier and more populous than the lands upriver. It then becomes only a matter of time before the city-state at the mouth of the river conquers everything upriver. Manshoon was ruling Zhentil Keep in the 1260's. I can go along with the idea that he faced stiff resistance from Teshendale and Dagger Dale, but one good military campaign up the Tesh River Valley and both of them should have been firmly attached to Zhentil Keep. The idea that he waited FIVE DECADEs to go after Teshendale and another TWO to go after Dagger Dale makes utterly no sense. During this time he frittered away a lot of energy on a lot of other stuff (such as the utterly useless Citadel of the Raven. No strategic value to that at all.) when he could have easily picked up the entire Tesh River Valley by the 1280's at the latest. With the entire river valley, Zhentil keep would have had more agricultural resources to support a larger population and a larger tax base to maintain it's army.
From that position of strength, the next two biggest threats to Zhentil Keep would have been Phlan and Hillsfar. Forget Mulmaster. Sea invasions are hard. Land invasions are easy. You just march your army across. Phlan and Hillsfar could both march armies directly at Zhentil Keep. The weaker of the two would be Phlan. By conquering Phlan that would make Zhentil Keeps Northeast border anchored at the Stowjanow. That would only leave Hillsfar as a geographic weak point. Hillsfar and Phlan would have been wise to team up an crush Zhentil Keep at any point. Think of the geographic position of Germany on the Northern European Plain with France on one side and Russia on the other. Germany's nightmare scenario was an attack on both sides. Same should have been for Zhentil Keep. Hillsfar would have to have recognized that it would not have stood a chance of being able to match the economic and military might of a Stowjanow and Tesh River Valley's united. That should have been Hillsfar's nightmare scenario.
And because Manshoon is supposed to be a Grade A badguy, Doctor Doom style, then he shouldn't have been a slouch. I could say, for story purposes, that Manshoon should have had all of that territory under firm control by the 1280's or 1300 at the latest. That would have resulted in Manshoon having his countries borders be anchored by Cormanthor to the south, the Dragonspire Mountains to the North, mountains and Border Forest to the West, and the Moonsea and Stojanow to the East.
From THAT position, Manshoon would have been very secure, but have difficulty projecting power. Moving into Thar would be easy, but holding it would be hard, and for little gain. Also, remember, sea invasions are hard and that is what an invasion of Mulmaster would be. And Mulmaster would be in a great position to control the Strait of Lis and cut Zhentil Keep off from the larger market of the Sea of fallen Stars. So I could see Mulmaster and Zhentil Keep achieving a stalemate that would prevent Zhentil Keep breaking out of the Moonsea as a direct political entity. Remember also, this is a world of monsters and stuff on the edge of civilization. His ability to power project would be hampered by having to maintain forts along his wilderness borders to deal with monsters. At THAT point, Manshoon deciding to spend his energies covertly trying to pull the strings around Faerun make more sense.
But Manshoon didn't do all that. And it is about fifteen years too late (in real time) for me to revise the history of my game as that would have changed the dynamics of my 3rd campaign.
So the world needs to make sense to me. Why would Manshoon be such an idiot and so incompetent for over the course of a hundred years?
My working solution is that he was cursed. As Zhentil Keep was conquering Teshendale, a witch living on the border area with Phlan could see the writing on the wall. She had interacted with Manshoon a few times and knew how dangerous he could be. First Teshendale, then Daggerdale, and then, without anyone to complicate his rear, that Manshoon would turn his attention to Phlan. Maybe she even had a vision of the future to steer her. However it was, so she sought out a place of power. Maybe an earth node? Whatever. It's a place of power. And maybe she brought in some allies to construct the curse. The curse being that Manshoon be obsessed with anything and everything not related to Phlan. If Manshoon turned his minds eye to Phlan, even a couple steps ahead in his thinking, he would find something else that he would need to devote his attention to. Thus, he could never serious devote resources to conquering Dagger Dale or making sure the garrison there was appropriate strength, because that would be a necessary step to be able to devote attention to Phlan. Yes! Let us rebuild the strategically useless Citadel of the Raven! Yes! Let us try to create "trade routes" across inhospitable land that won't ever return on investment! Yes! Let's needlessly antagonize being in X land and only put enough strength into it so that it will be like Vietnam! Always fighting! Never able to really attain victory! Yes!
Such a powerful curse this was that it might require annual sacrifices and even after Manshoon is gone those who have been entrusted with the sacrifices continue to do so. Maybe they don't know that all the Manshoon's are gone. Maybe because the specifics of why they make annual sacrifices have been lost over the past hundred years and the sacrifices on the alter in the place of power have taken on different meanings.
I think I want to have my players have to bring a stop to these sacrifices, just so that I can bring this explanation into the continuity of my game.
Anyway, if you made it this far into the post, I appreciate it. I am interested to hear what thoughts you may have. I am sure that some people may say that i am missing something or that my assumptions are wrong in some way. I’ll probably disagree, but I look forward to reading what you have to say. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 19:54:39
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Oh, do they killed Saharel? What a bummer... there goes another character that I actually liked destroyed to pave the 5e Realms...
No
She was introduced as an arch-lich that sacrifices her undeath to save Elminster (this is a special power of archliches - like, sacrifice your undeath for a wish effect). Then she was brought back as a spirit. To my knowledge the spirit is still there.
This all happened way back during the moment of the Time of Troubles where Mystra 1.0 was dead and Mystra 2.0 had not yet ascended and Elminster was holding her power, and as a result could not defend himself from the likes of Manshoon. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 19:12:32
Oh, do they killed Saharel? What a bummer... there goes another character that I actually liked destroyed to pave the 5e Realms... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 18:13:58
On the Simbul's Gift being a wonderful write for villain's, I have to very much agree. I equate this to the author's work in the thieve's world series, which was great for the same thing. I also loved that Szass is shown in said novel as on his heels. That representation of Lauzoril presented him as human in more ways than one, especially that he's more than a mage... he had a family and he was working to protect them. That's something that so often gets forgotten by authors, that everyone has SOMEONE that they care about. It may be blood relations. It may be a friend or lover. But very few people in this life truly have "noone". I can buy that with a few individuals (such as Larloch), but not every villain should be treated this way.
On Szass Tam in his portrayal in the Thayan Civil War (never was happy with that btw)... some points I've made in the past, though only to "fix" things.
Tam is portrayed in a short story "Red Ambition" in Realms of Magic. In it, he is involved with a temple of Leira that holds a crown that makes one's heart never stop beating.. so when he puts it on, it brings him great pain (hmmm, aftereffects of being affected by such magics?). The point of it is to show that Leira is more ruthless than him. So, Leira (conceivably a goddess who may serve Mystra to some degree) doesn't like Tam or is at least messing with him.
He received a cursed ARTIFACT (not simple magic item mind you) from Larloch (i.e. the Death Moon Orb). This artifact would affect your behavior, turning you more and more to Chaos and Evil, performing increasingly evil acts and becoming monstrously cruel and wicked. The curse says that it would lead most such people eventually to death, unless they were already dead, like Tam (it doesn't mean he's unaffected). Larloch is supposedly a chosen of Mystryl and thus may have leanings towards serving her still.
Tam's alignment in Unapproachable East and all earlier products is listed as NE. Therefore, the Death Moon Orb, being an artifact, should be pushing Tam towards Chaos.
Tam's scheme to enslave Eltab goes awry, due to some involvement with the Chosen of Mystra (i.e. the Witch Queen of Aglarond sics some adventurers onto his plots). Eltab and Tam go after each other, and while Eltab flees, Tam is notedly portrayed as affected by the encounter and having to appear much more deathly before his fellow Zulkirs in Simbul's Gift.
Shortly after that Tam fails on implementing his grand scheme to enslave Eltab.... his "known enemy" Velsharoon, a renegade red wizard (so former red wizard forced to leave), manages not to oust him from his seat as Zulkir of Necromancy. His enemy BECOMES THE GOD OF NECROMANCY. Velsharoon also becomes a servant of Mystra, and a possible spy within the ranks of Shar. Perhaps he even "picks on" his former enemy? Maybe makes his spells that allow him to appear "human" start to fail randomly? As he loses his "humanity", he begins to lose his "sanity"?
SOMEONE introduces "the Tome of Fastrin the Delver" to the Zulkir of Transmutation, Druxus Rhym, who looks at the book and its claims that you can build some towers and draw upon energy and remake the whole world and have the power of a god like being. He's fascinated by the theories, but he says they won't work. As a transmuter, he sees some kind of flaw in the transformation ritual, but he's fascinated by the "science" of it. He shows it to Tam, perhaps thinking that the two of them can figure out the issue and advance magic. Tam looks at the book and is convinced that the ritual will work. Yep, he too can become a god... just like his enemy Velsharoon... but a more powerful one... yep, because there's no trick hidden in that transmutation spell... nope, not a single trick or deception. Yep, that Tome of Fastrin the Delver's absolutely not a manifestation of Leira's power in book form (who had absolutely not recently manifested herself in another book form as the Cyrinishad) with the aid of Deneir, god of books and spellbooks, and possible would be servant of Mystra.
The events of the Thayan Civil War happen, but possibly not all Zulkirs "die" as the writer would make one think. For instance, we never see Lauzoril die. He jumps off a cliff... big deal... feather fall, fly, levitate.... We see Yaphyll "die", but only after she splits herself in two and sends a version of herself forward in time and encounters the spellplague and makes a prophecy... so possibly that version survived, just not on Toril. We never see Mythrella'a die on stage, but for some reason everyone is believing her name is Mythrellan... almost like she faked her death and used a spell to make everyone think her name was something different. We never see Lallara Mediocros die at all, so presumably she was still alive. We see Dmitra Flass die, but it was just as the spellplague was occurring, any chance she had a clone in waiting or some other means of survival?
Many red wizards leave Thay, spreading their knowledge of magic across Faerun (and possibly to other continents that go to Abeir? ::cough:: Fort Flame ::cough::)
Spellplague happens. The cursed artifact which had affected Tam blows up in his hand (possibly making its effects incurable and pushing him further towards depravity and evil?)
Fast Forward a hundred years. Tam plans to implement a great magic ritual centered on some Towers spread around Thay meant to "draw upon the magic of the land".... at the center of which is a great and powerful artifact (insert the idea of Ed's Athora)... However, the ritual is implemented not by Tam, but rather by a subordinate, Malark Springhill, who is himself not UNDEAD but instead IMMORTAL (not just slow aging mind you) due to a potion of eternal youth..... and then this IMMORTAL being is sacrificed (I mean is killed, yeah, that's it)... and then events start occurring ... almost like something was kicked off... "Mystra" somehow "returned to life"... almost like some big ritual had drawn a whole bunch of energy related to make and drained it into the weave. Oh, and Tam can't redo that ritual using Thay, because whatever "power" had been there is drained, and now he needs to find a new place of power to use the ritual whispered of in the Tome of Fastrin the Delver.
Wow, its ALMOST like Tam's whole last century has been the gods manipulating him into performing some ritual in order to rebirth the goddess of magic and he didn't even know it..... all with possibly gods with an affinity of some sort to Mystra helping it occur (Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Deneir)....
Odd too that around that time, he was confronted with not one, but two methods of immortality (one via Malark, the other via the crown that his apprentice/lover/compatriot Frodyne would have gotten in the temple of Leira).... almost as if someone was hedging bets and introducing people with chances for immortality around Szass Tam. Hmmm, and some would believe that Tam himself had obtained immortality (rumors of khaledshran, an elixir of immortality derived from the precious divine blood of the dead deity Re that is given to the incarnations of Horus-Re are in Tyrants in Scarlet). Almost like an immortal being had to cast the ritual found in the Tome of Fastrin the Delver.
meanwhile other gods may have been manipulating Cyric (Mask, Leira, Deneir, Savras).... into entering Dweomerheart during the time that the worlds would collide. Almost like the colliding of Abeir and Toril wasn't so much the result of Mystra dying, but events set in motion to occur at that time for some reason. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 16:09:19
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
"There have been very few Realms villains that have been given any good treatment in novels. Even when they do, they end up being heroes instead, because subtlety is frowned upon and the bad guy always has sterling motivations."
I know I say this a lot, but read The Simbul's Gift. The zulkirs in it are treated with reverence, with multiple layers and motivations and definitely not idiots. Given they are up against the Simbul and Alustriel is involved etc you would expect them to get their butts handed to them, but it is just great in terms of writing the villains.
Did you miss the whole part where Enchantment is a misunderstood good guy with complex motivations deep down (I oversimplify as a form of hyperbole). He's basically a hero at the end, though I would agree, his character is infinitely more interesting than Tam's in the Undead books. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 16:05:14
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Szass Tam was given better treatment because he was the pre-determined winner, because they wanted Ravenloft in the Realms. So interesting. Meanwhile, every other Zulkir - 9 in all - are made to look like idiots, whose mastery of their own school of magic (as archmages) is dwarfed by a lich and his mcguffin. One literally "dies" by jumping of a cliff because Tams say so - JOKE. Those 3 books had more awfully written archmages and any 5 other series combined.
You mean the same Szass Tam who has consistently been portrayed as the most powerful of the Zulkirs?
What Mr Greenwood is good in is short stories and worldbuilding. In contrast, he's not really a good novelist, which is consistent even with books outside of the Realms - the Falconfar saga, for instance. There's an Elminster book where the climatic battle with Manshoon is reduced to the latter showing up to get blown to bits in a kamikaze attack by a lich infatuated with Elminster, for example.
This isn't exactly something new. There is a startling contrast between every other portrayal of Telamont Tanthul and the the writing in the book where he dies. And then there's Larloch, who...ends up gloating while Elminster rolls his eyes.
It's just Mr Greenwood's writing style. That's not a knock against him; Mr Greenwood's strengths are in world-building, so blaming some hidden cabal of editors for, well, what seems to be a consistent theme in his writing is kind of bizarre.
Look at it this way: Take the best player on a basketball team. Then have that one player play a team of the 5 next best. That player would lose every time. No question.
Was Tam always depicted as the most powerful? Yes.
Had he ever been described as more powerful than the collected and concerted might of every other red wizard in Thay? No. Because that is just stupid. It is just lazy storytelling.
Also, if you think the sacrifice in Spellguard was because the lich was infatuated with Elminster, read it again. It was about conduct, and the duty of a host to her guests, which I thought was a fun way to tie arcane real-world practices to the Realms. Sarahel could no more have chosen to allow El's destruction than she could have chosen to not be Netherese.
I only point this out because that entire book was about the measured use of one's power, which is a major question posed by the implications of powerful wizards in the world (and is a theme EG has touched on several times since). It also is, arguably, Manshoon's biggest weakness. His amorality does not allow him to believe his magic should ever be constrained.
EDIT: Also, since the Simbul's gift was mentioned, why in the world would you march off to fight big bad god-undead without cashing in THAT chip. Liches don't fare too well against silver fire. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 14:19:08
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Szass Tam was given better treatment because he was the pre-determined winner, because they wanted Ravenloft in the Realms. So interesting. Meanwhile, every other Zulkir - 9 in all - are made to look like idiots, whose mastery of their own school of magic (as archmages) is dwarfed by a lich and his mcguffin. One literally "dies" by jumping of a cliff because Tams say so - JOKE. Those 3 books had more awfully written archmages and any 5 other series combined.
You mean the same Szass Tam who has consistently been portrayed as the most powerful of the Zulkirs?
What Mr Greenwood is good in is short stories and worldbuilding. In contrast, he's not really a good novelist, which is consistent even with books outside of the Realms - the Falconfar saga, for instance. There's an Elminster book where the climatic battle with Manshoon is reduced to the latter showing up to get blown to bits in a kamikaze attack by a lich infatuated with Elminster, for example.
This isn't exactly something new. There is a startling contrast between every other portrayal of Telamont Tanthul and the the writing in the book where he dies. And then there's Larloch, who...ends up gloating while Elminster rolls his eyes.
It's just Mr Greenwood's writing style. That's not a knock against him; Mr Greenwood's strengths are in world-building, so blaming some hidden cabal of editors for, well, what seems to be a consistent theme in his writing is kind of bizarre. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 12:25:35
Also Szass takes a back seat because he's in hiding after a vicious defeat. His cameo appearance is very memorable however. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 12:20:29
"There have been very few Realms villains that have been given any good treatment in novels. Even when they do, they end up being heroes instead, because subtlety is frowned upon and the bad guy always has sterling motivations."
I know I say this a lot, but read The Simbul's Gift. The zulkirs in it are treated with reverence, with multiple layers and motivations and definitely not idiots. Given they are up against the Simbul and Alustriel is involved etc you would expect them to get their butts handed to them, but it is just great in terms of writing the villains. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 09:43:53
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Any claim that the nebulous editors mandated that Manshoon had to twirl his moustache is somewhat suspicious in light of Larloch and Telamont's treatment. Akhlaur and Szass were treated with more respect and dignity, and this was when Tam decided to go on full omnicidal maniac.
Mr Greenwood is just really bad at writing villains. Manshoon could be substituted with Dr Claw, and nothing would change.
Well, you are welcome to think everyone involved in the process has been lying about he subject for the last 30 years, but since you have no new insight into the events, I'll go ahead and believe those that actually read Ed's pre-edit drafts.
Aklaur looked like a buffoon. He just happened to be one of two uber-powerful wizards - due only to their super secret pact - in a nation that should have had hundreds. The wizard-war acted like Halruaa had all apprentices and two teachers. Same story inverted.
Szass Tam was given better treatment because he was the pre-determined winner, because they wanted Ravenloft in the Realms. So interesting. Meanwhile, every other Zulkir - 9 in all - are made to look like idiots, whose mastery of their own school of magic (as archmages) is dwarfed by a lich and his mcguffin. One literally "dies" by jumping of a cliff because Tams say so - JOKE. Those 3 books had more awfully written archmages and any 5 other series combined.
There have been very few Realms villains that have been given any good treatment in novels. Even when they do, they end up being heroes instead, because subtlety is frowned upon and the bad guy always has sterling motivations. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 03:46:59
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
There is also the danger, if enough time passes, that he makes a new clone, dies, and the clone that wakes up doesn't know that his previous self made the new clone. So you would potentially end up with Manshoon clones that are years and years behind, simply because the rest of the clones waking up didn�t know that the clone existed and never updated them, and then suddenly that clone is the one waking up.
Do we know whether they needed to be updated one by one or any one would suffice? I mean, all clones were already linked, after all.
Even if not, depends on how the stasis contingency sequence as such works. It could be sorting by the most recent update.
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
RoZK is a fun / frustrating product. I like the timeline's "alternate take" on events, but the overall timeline was pretty messed up.
The way I rationalize it in my brain is the RoZK timeline is clearly propaganda, and someone (Fzoul? Manshoon?) wished to portray themselves as in power for longer than what was really true.
Indeed, unreliable in-universe lore is classic and Ed-blessed (gleefully).
But why just one of them tinkering with official history, rather than many cooks?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
He can try to secure it with magic, but just doing that would be stupid as hell.... anyone in security knows you have to do double security. So, spells on top of his own cipher or some other means to make it secure that can't be easily broken. His own cipher will generally mean he has to unbreak his own cipher (which perhaps he has a spell for that, but if he does, then he has to recover his spellbook first AND he has to make sure that that spellbook and that spell are not lost).
It should be not just magic, something that only he knows. As in, a spell that accepts key.
Of course, as magic need to be covered with obfuscation/misdirection, so is obfuscation/misdirection with magic. To rephrase Max Frei, Realmspace is full of two-bit diviners.
But that's far from an unique problem. What the clone thing changes is making more dynamic approaches difficult, as in he had to do it again and again, and could not change places until all clones know.
This suggests hiding great secrets within small secrets. E.g. his traveling spellbook is valuable loot, and thus at least some instances are likely to survive, but it would not be considered a key to his other secrets. That sort of thing. |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 17:48:43
Hello Eric!
Thank you for your responses!
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
b) Did I have time to figure stuff out / research it? (Oftentimes there were tight deadlines.)
How tight, generally speaking, was the time from time that you knew you were working on a project to when the copy had to be completed?
What was the longest amount of time you ever had to work on a project?
What was the shortest? |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 15:00:15
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
How did that happen then? And why not do an actual patch on the continuity later to fix it? Either to overwrite it or to implement your mental patch?
It always depended on:
a) Did I have a reasonable opportunity? (WoTC would pick the products.)
b) Did I have time to figure stuff out / research it? (Oftentimes there were tight deadlines.)
In this case, I never worked on a Moonsea product. However, George and I fixed hundreds of things over the years as we went.
--Eric
|
| LordofBones |
Posted - 29 Aug 2021 : 16:24:33
Any claim that the nebulous editors mandated that Manshoon had to twirl his moustache is somewhat suspicious in light of Larloch and Telamont's treatment. Akhlaur and Szass were treated with more respect and dignity, and this was when Tam decided to go on full omnicidal maniac.
Mr Greenwood is just really bad at writing villains. Manshoon could be substituted with Dr Claw, and nothing would change. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 28 Aug 2021 : 15:28:38
There was a correction, of sorts, in the GHofR on page 128:
"1261 DR Year of Bright Dreams
Manshoon claims his seat on the Zhent council. He then founds the secret organization of the Zhentarim."
That clarifies that he is only a council member on 1261 and not the overall ruler of Zhentil Keep.
The next mention is his involvement in the taking of the Darkhold.
That could leave his true rise to power in the 1300s as listed in Ed's articles and discussed here. There is some logic to that. I can see him using his success at the Darkhold as a means to silence his naysayers. I can also see Fzoul trying to elevate his level of participation to try and limit the prestige Manshoon was getting from it and thus blunt Manshoon's use of the seizure of the Darkhold to Manshoon's political advantage.
Edit: Also, Manshoon wouldn't have necessarily have to had died many times for it to affect his plans. If he died at a critical juncture to his plans, his next clone may have to pick up the pieces of something he has no idea about. That could easily extend the amount of time it took to gather power.
Also-Also, the spell description lists that the new clone will have one point less of Constitution and the spell won't work if someone has only a 1 CON. With a listed CON of 16, that makes it a maximum of 15 generations of clones (assuming no magic is used to permanently increase CON). Manshoon would likely have dozens of clones of each generation with an associated cache of magic for each one.
Another Edit: Nevermind about the previous also-also. He could have had one clone create multiple scrolls of wish before offing himself. That way, as each clone awakens, it reaches for a scroll of wish and boosts its CON to 16. |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 28 Aug 2021 : 07:53:20
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Cult of Boyd resurfaces. I thought we'd eradicated that a long time ago. Guess not.
It was the "Forgotten Realms Designer" tag above his profile picture that tipped me off. I was like "Really?" And then I looked at a couple of my books and saw his name on them.
I have no particular affinity to any designer. I didn't recognize your name either. And just now see that you have worked on some FR stuff as well. The only names I remember off the top of my head that have done work on Forgotten Realms is Ed Greenwood and Elaine Cunningham. I remember really enjoying her books. Ed...ah man...Ed made an interesting world for sure, but to really run the realms you have to decide what stuff you are going to emphasis and what parts you are going to change.
I couldn't tell you what products Eric has worked on, but as that he has worked on a bunch of them I would like to assume that he made some good contributions, even if there may be stuff I dislike. I think it is fair to thank him for that.
Anyway, instead of me having to figure out what the longstanding stuff is on the forum about fans, George, and Eric, could someone just summarize it for the new guy?
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
RoZK is a fun / frustrating product. I like the timeline's "alternate take" on events, but the overall timeline was pretty messed up.
The way I rationalize it in my brain is the RoZK timeline is clearly propaganda, and someone (Fzoul? Manshoon?) wished to portray themselves as in power for longer than what was really true. That allows the DM to enjoy the story but get the dates right as Ed had originally envisioned.
How did that happen then? And why not do an actual patch on the continuity later to fix it? Either to overwrite it or to implement your mental patch? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Aug 2021 : 05:54:01
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe something like a scrying bowl, that when certain linked items are placed into it, and then it's filled with a particular type of liquid, it then acts as a journal that can record/play back thoughts or spoken words, or show images of writing. So Manshoon could write something down, put an image of what he wrote into this device, destroy the original writing, and then disassemble the device. (Or speak into it, whatever)
As long as the user is the only one who can see/hear what's in this scrying bowl, even someone in the room with him would think Manny was just scrying on something.
That sounds an awful lot like a Pensieve out of Harry Potter. Which may be the intent?
Kinda. I'm thinking a scrying device like a bowl or crystal ball would work well. It would have to be more complex to operate, though, hence the idea of the extra components and such.
Unlike the Pensieve, though, it wouldn't be a thing where any yahoo could walk up and say "Hey, let's get a VR tour of this dude's memories!" It would have to be assembled first, a particular spell/ritual used, and then the caster can get like an AR overlay of things they themselves put into it.
This is all just tossing out ideas, though. An alternative would be something like a special crown. It looks normal, but pop out one or more gemstones and pop in ones that function similar to a kiira and go from there. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 23:06:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe something like a scrying bowl, that when certain linked items are placed into it, and then it's filled with a particular type of liquid, it then acts as a journal that can record/play back thoughts or spoken words, or show images of writing. So Manshoon could write something down, put an image of what he wrote into this device, destroy the original writing, and then disassemble the device. (Or speak into it, whatever)
As long as the user is the only one who can see/hear what's in this scrying bowl, even someone in the room with him would think Manny was just scrying on something.
That sounds an awful lot like a Pensieve out of Harry Potter. Which may be the intent? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 19:31:24
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I like that... telepathic link should "confirm identity" more than visual and voice. Combined with a certain password given telepathically, even someone scrying on him would be hard pressed to figure out the methodology.
I'd be more inclined, in this scenario, to have the journal in some sort of multipart form. Maybe something like a scrying bowl, that when certain linked items are placed into it, and then it's filled with a particular type of liquid, it then acts as a journal that can record/play back thoughts or spoken words, or show images of writing. So Manshoon could write something down, put an image of what he wrote into this device, destroy the original writing, and then disassemble the device. (Or speak into it, whatever)
As long as the user is the only one who can see/hear what's in this scrying bowl, even someone in the room with him would think Manny was just scrying on something. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 18:02:34
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Don't you worry, George. There are those that know that Eric wouldn't know his Eaerlann from his Evereska without your help. 
Same thing, different name. Gnome-ruled realm. Quite the horror show.
<Answer pending George's seal of approval.>
--Eric
Now why did you have to go that way? Now I have an idea for an evil gnome kingdom who is working towards taking over the world. They would use the gnome's ability to stay in the background wherever they are but pull the strings on those in power to get what they want. The current ruler is Marandar Valuneba Bodgedass (Marandar is the Gnim version of queen).
<sigh> Let me add that to my list. I think I can use them in the 5e era for Iriaebor as one of the groups operating in the city once it is fleshed out a bit. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 17:57:40
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
A contingency that will teleport currently worn magic items to a specific location? Otherwise, he would have to have multiple copies of all his "usual wear" items.
As for a journal, why would it have to be a book? What about a construct? It would have total loyalty to him, couldn't be mind read, and could be self mobile so that it would automatically move to a certain location in a certain pattern to keep it safe.
And magical trickery can't be used to make that construct believe that person A isn't Manshoon? Not secure enough. That being said, that's a good step towards security that I do like. I just think its worth exploring next steps beyond that. A password that is specific to each place that it moves to would be a good next step (i.e. when it's in place X the password is muffin, when in place Y the password is macguffin, when in place Z its puffin.... something where Manshoon can remember that the ending changes and that something about the site <sitename, etc...> reminds him of the beginning).
The construct idea was just something off the top of my head. There are ways to secure it. A Helmed Horror can see through any desception if contacted telepathically. Manshoon could leverage that in his construct so that if someone doesn't authenticate via telepathy, the construct remains silent or even performs other actions. Manshoon is a genius. I, unfortunately, am not.
I like that... telepathic link should "confirm identity" more than visual and voice. Combined with a certain password given telepathically, even someone scrying on him would be hard pressed to figure out the methodology. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 17:27:46
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Don't you worry, George. There are those that know that Eric wouldn't know his Eaerlann from his Evereska without your help.
Same thing, different name. Gnome-ruled realm. Quite the horror show.
<Answer pending George's seal of approval.>
--Eric |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 14:54:51
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
A contingency that will teleport currently worn magic items to a specific location? Otherwise, he would have to have multiple copies of all his "usual wear" items.
As for a journal, why would it have to be a book? What about a construct? It would have total loyalty to him, couldn't be mind read, and could be self mobile so that it would automatically move to a certain location in a certain pattern to keep it safe.
And magical trickery can't be used to make that construct believe that person A isn't Manshoon? Not secure enough. That being said, that's a good step towards security that I do like. I just think its worth exploring next steps beyond that. A password that is specific to each place that it moves to would be a good next step (i.e. when it's in place X the password is muffin, when in place Y the password is macguffin, when in place Z its puffin.... something where Manshoon can remember that the ending changes and that something about the site <sitename, etc...> reminds him of the beginning).
The construct idea was just something off the top of my head. There are ways to secure it. A Helmed Horror can see through any desception if contacted telepathically. Manshoon could leverage that in his construct so that if someone doesn't authenticate via telepathy, the construct remains silent or even performs other actions. Manshoon is a genius. I, unfortunately, am not. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 14:46:03
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Hello Eric L. Boyd!
It was not until yesterday that I realized who you were! Thank you for all your work over the years and your contributions to the Realms!
The Cult of Boyd resurfaces. I thought we'd eradicated that a long time ago. Guess not.
-- George Krashos
Don't you worry, George. There are those that know that Eric wouldn't know his Eaerlann from his Evereska without your help. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 13:42:38
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Hello Eric L. Boyd!
It was not until yesterday that I realized who you were! Thank you for all your work over the years and your contributions to the Realms!
The Cult of Boyd resurfaces. I thought we'd eradicated that a long time ago. Guess not.
-- George Krashos
That just goes to show how well we hide directly in the open right under your nose George.... or is that an illusion of me, and I'm secretly in your pantry stealing all your best candy? What, you didn't realize that I'm REALLY a wizard from Faerun located here and able to teleport? What I still haven't been able to uncover is how Eric knows so much truth about my world. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 13:36:15
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm also wondering, now, how many magical items Manshoon has lost over the years by having them on his person when getting destroyed -- because even if the next clone is fully up to date, it's not likely to know where the prior clone was when it was killed.
Probably many, though it hardly matters.
It is canon that he has one of the largest collections of magic items in the realms - on par with Khelben and Silverymoon.
Moreover, it is also known that he creates his own magic items as well as others used by other Zhents. Among these are at least two of such power that Azuth or Mystra chose to step in and take them away. How many archmages of the realms can make that claim? I'd have to say the list is not long.
It is one of the tidbits about him that is usually overlooked, which is unfortunate as it confirms he is among the upper echelons of realms mages. Perhaps only surpassed by the likes of a couple Chosen, Halaster, Larloch, etc.
One part of this I feel needs to change. The idea that Manshoon makes magic items for himself and others. If he's having to keep some "journal" for updating his clones, that takes time (I know with my job I have to write up a weekly report once a week of what I've done in detail, with the help of my email, so that I can apply time to numerous projects..... even going back just 4 days, it takes me 2 to 3 hours to remember and write it all down in a meaningful way). If he's having to run the Zhentarim and plot, that takes time. If he's having to do spell research on new spells, that takes time. If he's having to hunt down someone who betrayed him, that takes time. If he's having to periodically run around and access numerous hidden clones spread all over the realms, that takes time.
Manshoon has no damn time to be making magic items for himself or anyone else. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 13:22:46
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
A contingency that will teleport currently worn magic items to a specific location? Otherwise, he would have to have multiple copies of all his "usual wear" items.
As for a journal, why would it have to be a book? What about a construct? It would have total loyalty to him, couldn't be mind read, and could be self mobile so that it would automatically move to a certain location in a certain pattern to keep it safe.
And magical trickery can't be used to make that construct believe that person A isn't Manshoon? Not secure enough. That being said, that's a good step towards security that I do like. I just think its worth exploring next steps beyond that. A password that is specific to each place that it moves to would be a good next step (i.e. when it's in place X the password is muffin, when in place Y the password is macguffin, when in place Z its puffin.... something where Manshoon can remember that the ending changes and that something about the site <sitename, etc...> reminds him of the beginning). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 13:16:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing that I REALLY think should have never have been removed from his special clone spell was the idea that the clone is reborn with only the knowledge known by the last version of Manshoon to touch it. In many cases, there might have been a few months in between these times. With him running as many machinations as he was, just think how discomfiting this may have been. You essentially wake up and say half a year has passed... during which you did all kinds of plots, set passwords on these, hid things, etc... and you may not have written it all down for your other self to find to "catch up". You also don't know how you died. It would create a great paranoia, especially if the "next" clone dies before he can even reach the "third tier down"... and THAT one awakes with even less information.
That's an interesting point. I would imagine that Manshoon would have regularly had to take the time to go touch all his clones to update them -- but I'm pretty sure existing lore contradicts that. So unless he keeps a detailed journal, and it's been in one spot for a while, there's a strong possibility of Manshoon forgetting his own plots, or betrayals by or against him, or recent magical item caches/creations/acquisitions.
Here's another thing that comes from being in IT and security... he has to have that journal... he has to have it WELL hidden (so that if he dies someone doesn't immediately go to move it on him)... and he has to have it SECURE in a way that means NOONE can interpret it. He can try to secure it with magic, but just doing that would be stupid as hell.... anyone in security knows you have to do double security. So, spells on top of his own cipher or some other means to make it secure that can't be easily broken. His own cipher will generally mean he has to unbreak his own cipher (which perhaps he has a spell for that, but if he does, then he has to recover his spellbook first AND he has to make sure that that spellbook and that spell are not lost). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 13:07:31
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing that I REALLY think should have never have been removed from his special clone spell was the idea that the clone is reborn with only the knowledge known by the last version of Manshoon to touch it. In many cases, there might have been a few months in between these times. With him running as many machinations as he was, just think how discomfiting this may have been. You essentially wake up and say half a year has passed... during which you did all kinds of plots, set passwords on these, hid things, etc... and you may not have written it all down for your other self to find to "catch up". You also don't know how you died. It would create a great paranoia, especially if the "next" clone dies before he can even reach the "third tier down"... and THAT one awakes with even less information.
LOL
Now I'm envisioning Manshoon as a disorganized IT guy. He's got all sorts of partial snapshots of his systems with varying timestamps.
EXACTLY why it hit me so well, because while I'm NOT disorganized, I am an IT guy... and I'm always balancing multiple projects, keeping track of schedules, IP addressing, port types, circuit ID's, names of personnel around the country and who has quit and been replaced by who..... I can see Manshoon coming back and expecting that Captain X is in charge of a fortress, only to find out he was killed by harpers 6 months prior and that he was personally replaced by someone handpicked by Fzoul (but he doesn't know that Fzoul put him in place). |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 12:30:13
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You essentially wake up and say half a year has passed... during which you did all kinds of plots, set passwords on these, hid things, etc... and you may not have written it all down for your other self to find to "catch up". You also don't know how you died. It would create a great paranoia, especially if the "next" clone dies before he can even reach the "third tier down"... and THAT one awakes with even less information.
There is also the danger, if enough time passes, that he makes a new clone, dies, and the clone that wakes up doesn't know that his previous self made the new clone. So you would potentially end up with Manshoon clones that are years and years behind, simply because the rest of the clones waking up didn’t know that the clone existed and never updated them, and then suddenly that clone is the one waking up.
And on him forgetting how he died, I vaguely recall him dying to a lich in one novel, and then his clone waking up and thinking "I was killed, it must have been Elminster" even though it actually wasn't (that time).
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
A contingency that will teleport currently worn magic items to a specific location? Otherwise, he would have to have multiple copies of all his "usual wear" items.
There's already a spell that does something similar to this, Drawmij's Instant Summons. It's existed across multiple editions (renamed "Mage's Instant Summons" in 3e, I believe). It doesn't work if the items have already been claimed by somebody, just tells you who has them (depends how long it takes his clone to wake up, if it is near-instant "Die > Wake Up > Activate Spell" then he could theoretically snatch them in time), and there are also some other differences that would need to be worked around. Still, it's reasonably viable as something he would possess and could use, I think.
EDIT: Stupid iPad and stupid auto-formatting, what the hell even happened there. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 10:47:04
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Do you have any personal opinion on how many times Manshoon may have died?
So, probably not as many as most people suppose.
I do also think George's timeline analysis is spot on, so there's been less time overall. (Not a surprise. George did much of the original timeline analysis that appears in most of the products I worked on.)
RoZK is a fun / frustrating product. I like the timeline's "alternate take" on events, but the overall timeline was pretty messed up.
The way I rationalize it in my brain is the RoZK timeline is clearly propaganda, and someone (Fzoul? Manshoon?) wished to portray themselves as in power for longer than what was really true. That allows the DM to enjoy the story but get the dates right as Ed had originally envisioned. |
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