| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Horatio |
Posted - 13 Aug 2021 : 08:41:30
A bunch of us played in an FR role-playing universe in a made-up penal colony island settings, and some characters were racists whereas others were not. Some players were complaining about the fact that players who play human characters are being too friendly and inclusive towards those who play orcs or half-orcs... (Orc was playable too in our setting) - I personally played a racist because it was fun to explore but I got a lot of heat from other characters (all in-character, all though role-play).... but there was still this divide in the community. I'm not really an FR buff, I was taking liberties and played what I thought would be fun, but now I'm curious to understand what it's really like in FR in terms of racism, how prevalent, whether we were being extra harsh or extra friendly.
Image from our game and my character (NWN Server): https://ibb.co/sFRzVwz |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 15 Sep 2021 : 03:38:42
quote:
Originally posted by Exodite
When the characters finally did encounter actual monsterous creatures (toad-men in a swamp) they reacted like summer camp kids meeting a hockey-masked revenant and ran screaming for their lives, their players stunned at the revelation there were THINGS in the wilderness beyond the ken of man. This band of hardcore adventurers, veterans of many battles, shaken to their cores by what D&D would call bullywugs. 
-The last game I played, it was also an all-human world where I later introduced encounters with undead/monsters. I wish I was able to capture that sense of "holy crap" in the players when I did. |
| Exodite |
Posted - 14 Sep 2021 : 17:30:41
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
If you keep humanizing all your monsters then you'll eventually have no monsters left to kill. You'll only have people left to murder.
I created and ran a homebrew fantasy world for 5 years before my players encountered actual monsters apart from risen dead or elementals, both the result of spells cast by... human mages. Humans were both the heroes and antagonists but monsters were cryptids rumored to exist and often boasted about by mercenaries and adventurers with little or no proof of their encounters that couldn't be easily refuted.
The collection of city states had well established and policed trade routes and the focus of the campaign involved a war brought on by power struggles between various factions played out through their proxies like the PC's and their rivals. Being a fantasy world, there were non-conventional animals that no one would have called monsters if encountered in the wild, dinosaurs and the like.
When the characters finally did encounter actual monsterous creatures (toad-men in a swamp) they reacted like summer camp kids meeting a hockey-masked revenant and ran screaming for their lives, their players stunned at the revelation there were THINGS in the wilderness beyond the ken of man. This band of hardcore adventurers, veterans of many battles, shaken to their cores by what D&D would call bullywugs. |
| Azar |
Posted - 12 Sep 2021 : 02:34:55
This is why you refrain from tumbling down that particular rabbit hole. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 12 Sep 2021 : 02:01:16
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Do we have to treat hobgoblins, goblins, and bugbears as stand-ins for humans? Hags? Ogres as a stand-in for obese people? Can you no longer notice that halflings are short? We went from orcs being absolutely not human looking (they looked like Gamorrean guards from star wars... or rather gamorrean guards looked like orcs from D&D), to people changing their skin color to a "gray green" color and their noses became slightly less piggish. But they're still enormously different. If someone wants to play a more human orc, there's the "half-orc" as the option. If someone has a problem with it, they should bring it up to the DM, but the game itself shouldn't have to change for everyone because of this. There WILL be exceptions, but the norm acting as presented makes for a viable creature active in the wild that parents may need their children to be wary of on the edges of society.
-Yup. I never really made the connection between Orc and Gamorrean, but yeah, wow, they're very Orcish. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 08 Sep 2021 : 01:52:29
It's difficult to not see some humanoids from D&D (especially the playable ones) as "stand-ins for humans" when that is exactly as they were created (in real life, I mean). It's even outright stated in one the DMGs from 1e or 2e. The intention of the authors was for them to be stand-ins. |
| Azar |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 23:41:58
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Do we have to treat hobgoblins, goblins, and bugbears as stand-ins for humans? Hags? Ogres as a stand-in for obese people? Can you no longer notice that halflings are short? We went from orcs being absolutely not human looking (they looked like Gamorrean guards from star wars... or rather gamorrean guards looked like orcs from D&D), to people changing their skin color to a "gray green" color and their noses became slightly less piggish. But they're still enormously different. If someone wants to play a more human orc, there's the "half-orc" as the option. If someone has a problem with it, they should bring it up to the DM, but the game itself shouldn't have to change for everyone because of this. There WILL be exceptions, but the norm acting as presented makes for a viable creature active in the wild that parents may need their children to be wary of on the edges of society.
When it comes to humanizing monsters, I find the practice deceptively boring. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 16:13:22
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
By the way, the mentioning of "Scro" and my thinking about gamorrean guards of star wars just made me realize something... has anyone ever linked this (granted, Scro are more intelligent, and gamorreans... drool a lot)? For instance, is there a homeworld of the scro called Gamorrea? I half think right now that this would be a good name for the world that the gray orcs came from through the orcgate now..... and now my mind is thinking "Sith" orcs amongst the gray orc population as incarnum wielders (the soulborn class).... so they use constitution for meldshaping and use strength in combat... and since they don't actual start meldshaping until 4th level the majority would mechanically be little different than fighters.
The scro homeworld is Dukagsh, named for the ascended hero who changed the orcish culture after the First Unhuman War. As a race, they're less than 300 years old (hard to say when the orcs who fled with Dukagsh became scro, but it was likely after his death). The best source for their world is Roger Moore's article in Dragon Magazine Annual #1 (1996).
Jeff |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 14:18:48
By the way, the mentioning of "Scro" and my thinking about gamorrean guards of star wars just made me realize something... has anyone ever linked this (granted, Scro are more intelligent, and gamorreans... drool a lot)? For instance, is there a homeworld of the scro called Gamorrea? I half think right now that this would be a good name for the world that the gray orcs came from through the orcgate now..... and now my mind is thinking "Sith" orcs amongst the gray orc population as incarnum wielders (the soulborn class).... so they use constitution for meldshaping and use strength in combat... and since they don't actual start meldshaping until 4th level the majority would mechanically be little different than fighters. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 14:02:13
Do we have to treat hobgoblins, goblins, and bugbears as stand-ins for humans? Hags? Ogres as a stand-in for obese people? Can you no longer notice that halflings are short? We went from orcs being absolutely not human looking (they looked like Gamorrean guards from star wars... or rather gamorrean guards looked like orcs from D&D), to people changing their skin color to a "gray green" color and their noses became slightly less piggish. But they're still enormously different. If someone wants to play a more human orc, there's the "half-orc" as the option. If someone has a problem with it, they should bring it up to the DM, but the game itself shouldn't have to change for everyone because of this. There WILL be exceptions, but the norm acting as presented makes for a viable creature active in the wild that parents may need their children to be wary of on the edges of society. |
| Azar |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 23:53:48
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
perhaps another player is forced to revive a problem in their escapism game that they may as well be experimenting in their real life.
...then the player should bring that up (ideally, with some discretion). Alternatively, if a DM is aware of prior problems with his group, he should make sure everyone is on the same page. I used to walk on eggshells concerning this topic, but no more; orcs are orcs. Orcs are not thinly veiled stand-ins for humans and human issues unless someone is making an active/conscious effort to portray them as such. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 22:11:51
The problem is not if it makes sense or not in the lore. The problem is when these attitudes can hurt people in the real world. Because you may find it "fun" (as the OP said), but perhaps another player is forced to revive a problem in their escapism game that they may as well be experimenting in their real life. |
| Azar |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 19:05:24
When it comes to this game, people want a race/species that is a monolith of evil; there's nothing wrong with that desire. If done right, our hobby is healthy escapism and perhaps an outlet for excess creativity. That said, as noted, there are a few canon exceptions to the rule when it comes to orcs (in particular, there are orcs that worship Eldath). |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 14 Aug 2021 : 17:10:09
Orcs are universally hated by almost all other races, even other monstrous humanoids and goblinoids. The reason is simple: the Orc pantheon DEMANDS (on pain of death) that orcs make war on every other race, and attempt genocide.
This goes back to the wars between the orc pantheon and the Seldarine. This is the orc identity and what it means to be an orc.
The average individual of EVERY other race would more than likely hate orcs with a deep burning passion. There aren't many societies in the North that haven't been negatively effected by orcs at some point during their history, and many have been obliterated solely due to orcs, many times over.
It's not "racism", it's baked in history and theology from the dawn of the setting.
I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Are there orcs that aren't evil? Sure. Just like there are drow that aren't evil. Is it relevant to the rest of the world? No.
Can you make an interesting story about such a case? Yes!
But, it's not good vs evil, it's racial identity. What it means to be an orc, and what it means to reject that. It's not a moral quandary.
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 14 Aug 2021 : 16:34:33
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I dont think alignment should ever have affected humanoids to determine conflict and restrict their choices.
Mortals have choice, they can choose to be evil or not evil. Perhaps it is the benefit of a soul. They might choose to align themselves with the forces of evil or chaos but they can easily unmask that choice.
An outsider does not have choice (although how that fits into redemption or corruption I'm not sure). Their behaviour and their actions are determined by their alignment.
99 times out of 100 an angel will always choose to do the good thing regardless of the outcome (save one life now even though millions may suffer later).
At least that's how I interpret and use alignment. Orcs are mortal, their evil is caused by their environment and upbringing, but they can disregard it if they want. Outsiders are good or evil by their very nature and will almost never be able to disregard it (perhaps as they get older they get more control over their instinctive urges)
-That's how I have always interpreted it as well. Mortal creatures are products of their environment/society. Extraplanar entities are like manifestations of concepts such as "good", "evil", "law", "chaos" and so on and it is inherent in their nature to be "good", "evil", "lawful", "chaotic" and so on (with a handful of story exceptions). |
| Horatio |
Posted - 14 Aug 2021 : 09:21:21
Thanks for all the replies-- I feel vindicated ;) I wish I made this topic before I started playacting a racist, I'd have had so much more material to work with during my character's rants. Thanks for all the great feedback, I'll use this thread in the future for reference if the community is being too "carebear" and just wants everyone to get along in-character. Mind you we're a hardcore role-play community. Maybe that stuff can fly if you're just role-playing casually and having fun, but if you want to take RP to the next level... it should probably be very rare for someone to be so-called "Woke". Although I'd also blame the players playing orcs for portraying them as harmlessly stupid...it kinda fed the "woke" mentality...
EDIT: Here is a short film I made about racism in this specific gameworld I'm talking about - https://youtu.be/vYmsoZ-uaRQ |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 14 Aug 2021 : 08:53:42
All one needs to look at is what has been the net positive result of orcs in the FR since they invaded to understand the very logical reaction of the other sophont species. What have they introduced to the world in terms of arts, sciences, laws, philosophies, products, or services that have benefited anyone who is not an orc? What improvements have orcs made that have lasting positive effects (roads, forestry, game animal management) or sustainable resource harvesting (field rotation farming, selective foraging, stocked fish ponds) in lands controlled by orc populations? What are the values in the aggregate of orc societies that endear outsiders to their culture? How many of those orcish religious beliefs, views on personal rights, treatments of foreigners, and definitions for the words "fair" or "just" would those sophont civilizations find anathema or abhorrent? And this is in addition to what the prior sages have brought up about repeated and constant bloody campaigns by hordes of orcs sweeping across the land.
The orcish religion is about dominance and genocide - what room is there for coexistence? The write-ups for half-orcs often depict them as being maltreated by pure-blood orcs in their culture - what hope is there for any other race under the aggregate governance of orcs? Conversely, any action that does not advance an orc's social standing in his own culture and does not demonstrate an orc's personal power can be seen as a sign or weakness to all the orc's peers - what do orcs have to gain by being nicer? Which response is more desired by the aggregate of orc chiefs as they have been presented in FR lore, their appearance to elicit from foreign people: friendly greetings or alarm & fear?
This is not a matter as trite as dividing people of the same race over variations in skin color. These are different species of people with demonstrable physiological differences in anatomies & capabilities. Add the history & attitudes of the orcs to this biological difference (including fecundity) and orcs represent an existential threat to every race in the FR. And, as other sages have stated, orcs are evil by default - members deviating from this norm have extraordinary events allowing for these anomalous outliers of the species. Brutality is their cradle, sociopaths & sadists are their gods, slaughter is their ladder of social status, and strong progeny is their immortality. Viewing all orcs with a jaundiced eye isn't racism, its a good survival instinct! |
| Baltas |
Posted - 14 Aug 2021 : 08:45:29
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
One factor which may or may not apply in our world but certainly prevails in D&D worlds (like the Realms) is alignment. It is a cornerstone of divine and arcane magics, it is a fundamental element in the cosmos. Orcs and goblinoids (and their deities) are Evil aligned, humans (and their deities) sometimes are but usually are not. Certainly it's possible for individuals to break the pattern - Realmslore has an orc paladin and a drow ranger - but as a species orcs are monstrous.
Well, it's kinda more complicated - yes alignement is increadibly important in DnD, but even Gary Gygax did write stuff, that implied that some things aren't black and white in terms of aligment, seeing how he presented his (kinda controversial) take on what can be counted as Lawful Good:
https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11762&start=60
A number of sources sources indicate tht at least most mortal races, including orcs, are born true neutral-ish/unaligned-ish, most notably the "Bastion of Broken Souls" adventure:
https://mimir.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/desayeus
This is further supported by the fact orcs brought up by priests of Eldath, outright turned out as Good - ancestors of the above mentioned Ondonti, who gone on as a Lawful Good society long after the first generation. At least kinda showing orcs are not born evil.
But are orcs in vast majority (specifically in the Realms) of evil alignement? Yes, but it isn't really somethin at least completelly inborn, and there is no little evidence it's a sociological problem.
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 14 Aug 2021 : 08:28:07
I dont think alignment should ever have affected humanoids to determine conflict and restrict their choices.
Mortals have choice, they can choose to be evil or not evil. Perhaps it is the benefit of a soul. They might choose to align themselves with the forces of evil or chaos but they can easily unmask that choice.
An outsider does not have choice (although how that fits into redemption or corruption I'm not sure). Their behaviour and their actions are determined by their alignment.
99 times out of 100 an angel will always choose to do the good thing regardless of the outcome (save one life now even though millions may suffer later).
At least that's how I interpret and use alignment. Orcs are mortal, their evil is caused by their environment and upbringing, but they can disregard it if they want. Outsiders are good or evil by their very nature and will almost never be able to disregard it (perhaps as they get older they get more control over their instinctive urges) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Aug 2021 : 08:03:34
One factor which may or may not apply in our world but certainly prevails in D&D worlds (like the Realms) is alignment. It is a cornerstone of divine and arcane magics, it is a fundamental element in the cosmos. Orcs and goblinoids (and their deities) are Evil aligned, humans (and their deities) sometimes are but usually are not. Certainly it's possible for individuals to break the pattern - Realmslore has an orc paladin and a drow ranger - but as a species orcs are monstrous. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 14 Aug 2021 : 03:20:15
Well I agree with you Wooly, hence I wrote that I don't think it decides about humanity being more, or as evil as orcs. I just gave examples to show the cathegory of being "a monster" can be more complicated in D&D lore.
What I meant is, that we can humanize monsters, or at least ones like like orcs, goblins, drow ogres etc, if we have many evil, even monstrous members of non-evil races, or species, like the mentioned human examples.
[EDIT]
I think it's important to mention that humanizing monsters, and presenting them sympatherically, is far from new. We done it for millennia, as shown in an example with one of the oldest monsters known - Humbaba:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPB0RW7zg60 |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Aug 2021 : 03:03:24
To be fair, humans are also the most populous race in many D&D settings -- so of course you're going to find more human Dark Lords and more examples of monstrous humans. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 14 Aug 2021 : 02:22:41
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
If you keep humanizing all your monsters then you'll eventually have no monsters left to kill. You'll only have people left to murder.
Well, the things is orcs recieved some humanizing elements since at before 2E AD&D (ie Orcs of Thar - Basic D&D Mystara, but still counts).
The term monster is also quite relative. Many could say as well that humanity is quite monstrous both in reall life, and D&D. Athas is screwed up in part due to a group of humans, humanity being chosen aby Raajat as the ones he would use to cleanse uwrothy races (and them kill them, after they played their role, and use the nergy they harvested with defiling magic), in large part due to humantity's share potential for destruction.
On other worlds, humanity caused immense destruction, including Toril - it's not that far to say humanity caused as much or more grief as orcs to each other and other races on Toril.
Many increadibly destructive and monstrous villains, are, or at least started out as human - among the best examples being Vecna, who was a threat to all of the multiverse/existence, and before and after that commited many trully deplorable acts. Or why so many Dark Lords of Ravenloft, are or were human?
This is without a malicious god with a simlar dark pantheon of gods under him, and their society outright ordering destructive and malicious behavior.
To be clear I'm not saying humans are more evil than orcs, or as evil as whole, but saying the situation isn't so black and white, and wasn't for decades in D&D, maybe even to a degree from near the start. After all, there is a reason why humanity and demihumans, did have also a place in the pages of many editions of the Monster Manual... |
| Gelcur |
Posted - 13 Aug 2021 : 22:35:59
Something slightly tangent but related, it seems shorter lived species bred a lot faster and these species were seen more and more as pests by longer lived species, like elves. Orcs hit middle age at 17 and venerable at 35. Humans are middle aged at 35 and venerable at 70. Compare that with elven middle age is at 175 and venerable is 350. Many smaller creatures like insects and small mammals live for a few months to a year or two. We must all seems like bugs to dragons and motes of dust to gods. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 13 Aug 2021 : 21:06:07
If you keep humanizing all your monsters then you'll eventually have no monsters left to kill. You'll only have people left to murder. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 13 Aug 2021 : 15:11:45
-In universe, the average Joe is going to have a negative opinion of Orcs. Only the most wise, theosophical type is going to raise arguments regarding regarding the nature of good and evil and nature versus nurture.
-In reality, yeah, Orcs are just socialized by and large to act (what we would consider) evil, but they are just like anyone else with sentience in that they can also grow up in societies that are not evil and come out non-evil, like the aforementioned Odonti. That is true or basically every race except things that embody universal concepts, like devils, angels, modrons, elementals, inevitables, all those things (and even then, you occasionally see fallen angels or redeemed devils). |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 13 Aug 2021 : 14:14:15
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The entire orcish pantheon is compromised of a malevolent deity and his underlings whose stated goal is basically brutal conquest. There's probably not a single race that hasn't come into conflict with the orcs.
This, in essence.
In Forgotten Realms racism/speciesism/whatever you term it exists in any number of places, for any number of reasons:
- A long history of conflict (e.g. orcs, drow).
- Supremacist views (e.g. the Eldreth Veluuthra are literally elven supremacists out to exterminate humans who view half-elves as abominations).
- Personal hatred brought about by past events (e.g. the half-golem Dorn, who explicitly hated all dragons because he was nearly killed by one as a child).
And that's just three or four examples off the top of my head. There are many more.
In the case of orcs, there are myriad reasons in Forgotten Realms why an individual within the setting would have negative views, even entirely justified negative views, of them. In some areas, those views are more likely to be shared by others (e.g. among dwarves). In other areas, those views are less likely to be shared by others (e.g. Thesk, as mentioned).
To do otherwise, I think, is to create an overly sanitised image that doesn't really feel like an actual living, breathing world. That is, however, only my opinion, and I can appreciate that others may prefer something different. |
| deserk |
Posted - 13 Aug 2021 : 11:26:53
I've encountered this sort of stuff before in roleplay, and I'd personally say (and it feels silly to have to say it) there is a difference between roleplaying a *character* who is doing or saying something in a pretend story than actually saying and doing something yourself in RL. That fact that there are so many that can't distinguish between the player and the character is always a problem when it comes to roleplay. And of course in many NWN PWs you don't personally assemble the group of people you'd want to play with, so often you don't get like minded people.
Personally I want a bit of roughness and grittiness and antagonism that you would expect in a Medieval/Renaissance/Dark Age setting, and therefore it'd be natural for there to be contention and conflict between various races, cultures, faiths, etc. But of course that style of setting is not for everyone.
Though 5E is certainly striving to make the world of FR more sanitized by conforming with current trends but it is clear that in 2nd and 3rd there are many rivalries and conflicts between the various people of the Realms. Of course it's not the same everywhere. While in the North orcs might be reviled by most humans, elves and dwarves, whereas in places like Thesk, orcs are viewed very favourably due the fact that they've helped to defend this land against many outside threats (like the Tuigan invasion). And I like that personally. Not every place is the same. Not every place has the same issues or the same outlooks. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 13 Aug 2021 : 11:22:46
As mentioned by others, orcs (and by extension half-orcs) in canon Forgotten Realms, are seen very negativelly, due to a long story of raiding, often extremelly destructive. There are exceptions - the Kingdom of Many Arrows was more like a normal country, traiding and having more peaceful relations with other peoples. This did cause to orcs to be a bit better relations with other races for a time at least, and should still have some effects of it (it explored in the 4E/post Spellplague era (1470-early 1480s), while Neverwinter Nights and your persitent world probably takes place during the 3E era (1372 DR - 1376 DR/)).
Ondonti were a very peaceful (pacifistic even) group of orcs, who worshipped Eldath.
There is also a the city of Palischuk, rebuild and populated near entirelly by Half-Orcs, and peaceful and functioning within the larger Vaasan society.
With Half-Orcs, they are though rather more probable to be accepted than full orcs, at least in areas were half-orcs more populous, though they are probable to face people being at least suspicious of them. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 13 Aug 2021 : 10:00:16
The entire orcish pantheon is compromised of a malevolent deity and his underlings whose stated goal is basically brutal conquest. There's probably not a single race that hasn't come into conflict with the orcs. |
| ElfBane |
Posted - 13 Aug 2021 : 09:50:53
(Sigh) Again?! OK, Here goes, it's not hard to learn to discriminate against a race, clan, etc., when they are raiding and pillaging and killing YOUR group. Why is that SO HARD TO FIGURE OUT??? Sometimes I think that "Woke" doesn't quite mean you're as aware as the name suggests. |
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