| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 16:15:28
I was just thinking about something, and I figured I'd bring it up to see if anything in particular springs to people's minds. In the Faerunian Pantheon there are 3 gods whose "symbology" is in effect 3 lightning bolts (Talos has 3 lightning bolts that either radiate FROM a point OR that all converge; Valkur has 3 lightning bolts that converge from a cloud; Assuran of the Three Thunders/Hoar the Doombringer has three lightning bolts as ONE of his symbols as well, but he also has a symbology of a coin with a two-faced head on it).
To note, prior to his fall, Kozah's symbol was a single lightning bolt (A stylized white lightning bolt on a crimson field between two flanking horizontal white bars). Also to note is something I've brought up a few times that Kozah had 2 eyes, whereas Talos has but one and an eyepatch.
My first thoughts are that there is some symmetry to an idea of Kozah splitting into multiple gods, of which Talos was but one. By splitting, I'm picturing something where multiple mortals ascend to take some portion of his position. It could be something where this comes in the form of lightning bolts hitting mortals and imbuing them with divine power, and possibly not all at the same time even.
Just throwing out some random thoughts on this line for perusal and possible improvement:
Talos losing an eye as a portion of himself is destroyed or giving up an eye as a willing sacrifice of himself for power.
Assuran of the Three Thunders/Hoar the Doombringer might be seen as holding the ethos "an eye for an eye".
Just because of the oh so common picture of ship's captain's wearing eye patches, I wouldn't be surprised to find Valkur portraying himself with one.
Talos is noted as being a person who LIKES to raise up mortals by helping them gain immortality. He's also noted as being very willing to then absorb them. Perhaps this "granting of divine power" to Malyk and Velsharoon for example also involved the striking of lightning.
Anyway, just a thought. Figured I'd throw it out and see if it makes anyone's radar shoot out something. It just seems weird that pretty much any god with a lightning bolt in his symbols has to have 3 of them... not 2 not 1 not 4 not 7... so there might be a reason behind it. One thing I'd noted in the past was that dragons with breath weapons in 1st edition only had 3 uses per day, and that possibly some of this symbology might also mean these were risen dragons.
|
| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Aug 2021 : 20:05:42
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Yeah, the idea of other gods using Mulan gods godflesh/manifestations, is quite interesting.
With Eldath, I wonder if she wouldn't be maybe a merger of a fey and/or elven deity and Ishtar, maybe with a largelly dead or dormant Ishtar (though still in her manifestation, but kinda barelly alive), but the process along with possibly loss of name and titles, caused the combined deity indeed expirience a loss of identity - and take up a name based on the elven Ondath - "peace".
With the "Eye of Kozah" were you maybe inspired by Tom M. Costa's take on Entropy, were it's related to Talos?
Though George Krashos also suggested Entropy could be related to Shar (and it also falls under her portfolio, and even resembles Shar's symbol, and even portfolio). Maybe Shar could help Kozah the creation of Entropy, possibly along corrupting Kozah (like she tried or tries wit people using the Shadow Weave or with Sharess, Shevarash or Hoar himself).
(Yes, Shar is kinda overused, but she very well fit's, here and Ed himself ha her heavily involved with [quote="https://www.sageadvice.eu/the-forgotten-realms-god-kings-of-mulhorand-and-unther/"]Uther and Mulhorand in his original Realms
. As well as the "Old Mulhorand", is essentially a prototype for Imaskar, hence Mulhorand was called the "oldest Human nation" in first Realms publications.)
[/quote]
On the "eye of Kozah" ... no, I was just thinking about how entropy seems to be involved in the area and how as a being of destruction it fit with Talos (and looked like a dark eye, which is what's under his eyepatch). Since Kozah had 2 eyes and Talos has one and a blackness under and eyepatch, I figured mix Talos and entropy and get Kozah.
Of course, with that "formula" one might also equate then that "Kozah" = Pandorym the Primordial if entropy is the separated part of Pandorym that's a sphere of annihilation created by the Imaskari. That then feeds back into how Thayd may have KNOWN about Entropy to involve it in the orcgate war to basically kill the gods... he's an Imaskari and they separated out Pandorym's body.
On the idea of Eldath being a merging of Ishtar's godflesh and some elven being.... that's an interesting idea. We have the official story that "she left and gave her power to Isis", but what if she challenged Gilgeam with the aid of some elven power or some fey being. She gets killed, and the other being makes off with her physical body... Isis moves in, because the Mulan now have an opening in Unther, knowing that Gilgeam dare not strike at her without risking the wrath of all of Mulhorand's gods.... and thus she can begin the move in of Mulhorand into Gilgeam's territory. In this way we get "Eldath" and we have a much more interesting story for why and how Ishtar's clergy accepted Isis. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 06 Aug 2021 : 15:42:51
Yeah, the idea of other gods using Mulan gods godflesh/manifestations, is quite interesting.
With Eldath, I wonder if she wouldn't be maybe a merger of a fey and/or elven deity and Ishtar, maybe with a largelly dead or dormant Ishtar (though still in her manifestation, but kinda barelly alive), but the process along with possibly loss of name and titles, caused the combined deity indeed expirience a loss of identity - and take up a name based on the elven Ondath - "peace".
With the "Eye of Kozah" were you maybe inspired by Tom M. Costa's take on Entropy, were it's related to Talos?
Though George Krashos also suggested Entropy could be related to Shar (and it also falls under her portfolio, and even resembles Shar's symbol, and even portfolio). Maybe Shar could help Kozah the creation of Entropy, possibly along corrupting Kozah (like she tried or tries wit people using the Shadow Weave or with Sharess, Shevarash or Hoar himself).
(Yes, Shar is kinda overused, but she very well fit's, here and Ed himself ha her heavily involved with [quote="https://www.sageadvice.eu/the-forgotten-realms-god-kings-of-mulhorand-and-unther/"]Uther and Mulhorand in his original Realms[/quote]. As well as the "Old Mulhorand", is essentially a prototype for Imaskar, hence Mulhorand was called the "oldest Human nation" in first Realms publications.) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Aug 2021 : 18:00:17
We had been discussing some of this here and on the side, so I just wanted to come back to the topic.
I wanted to approach the ideas that some of the gods of Unther either purposely or not on purpose left Unther/Mulhorand rather than dying OR their "godflesh" became inhabited by another similar entity. Wanted to see if anyone else had any similar ideas. Some of the ideas I put forth go like this:
Eldath either on purpose or because she doesn't KNOW who she is any longer, is in fact inhabiting the godflesh of Ishtar. This may be because Isis stole Ishtar's titles, or it may be she gave them up to Isis to get away from Gilgeam, or something else entirely. This is why Eldath was prime bound prior to the ToT.
Mielikki is inhabiting the godflesh of Ki. This may be for dozens of reasons (Ki may have called out to her as she fell in the orcgate war, or Mielikki used her godflesh to enter the world, or they're aspects of the same entity in reality, or something else entirely). This is why Mielikki was prime bound prior to the ToT.
Gilgeam possibly was infected by Bane via the Black Lord's Cloak or some other method, and thus Gilgeam's change in personality as well as the rise of the largest temple of the god of tyrants right on Unther's border. However, that doesn't mean that Gilgeam was pure of heart, and he may have started to go dark prior to this. "Gilgeam" possibly killed off Enlil, and then explained away that the god was "so heartbroken that he left". Then again, there might be another story...
The other possible story --- Assuran of the Three Thunders (possibly an ascendant dragon), a popular god of Chessenta which is unhappy with Untheric rulership, intends to take out Enlil by aligning with Kozah of Netheril. "Kozah's eye".... aka Pandorym/Entropy... is brought into the conflict via the the Imaskari/Theurgist Adept leader, Thayd, prior to the opening of the orcgate. This may have been when Kozah began to be transitioned into Talos, and his ties to "Entropy the godswallower" and its return in the spellplague era may have ties to why Talos disappeared. Assuran's involvement with "the power of destruction"
The existing story for Marduk is that "he was an aspect of Bahamut" that kills Tiamat in the Orcgate Wars. Perhaps this story should be changed just a tidbit.... Marduk was Marduk. He hated Tiamat. He killed Tiamat and died. Bahamut used his godflesh to enter the world once again. This may be because Bahamut is ALSO forced to enter this world only through intermediaries (i.e. he must have a physical form to inhabit).
Both sun gods of the Mulan people died in the orcgate wars (Utu and Ra). The sun experiences a solar eclipse. Ra is documented as being killed by the avatar of Gruumsh that is "summoned" by his shamans/priests. We had been theorizing something a Amun-Ra and At'ar being merged in the Netherese pantheon into Amaunator (Amun-Ra-At'ar), and knowing this Talos may have helped bring Gruumsh into the world to basically kill Ra.
Going back to the above idea a little of "Pandorym/Entropy" as "Kozah's Eye" .... perhaps the "godswallower" doesn't act like a sphere of annihilation as we picture it when it comes to godflesh. Maybe it absorbs the spirit of the god from it but leaves behind the flesh (for every OTHER material object, it may destroy it, but the body of the divine may be indestructible). While some may see this as "Kozah's Eye"..... a bunch of orcs seeing a giant black orb moving around a battlefield to take out gods might see it as "the eye of Gruumsh". To note, Egyptian myth also revolves around "The eye of Ra" as a counterpoint to him that acts as his divine retribution, and when the whole Set/Osiris/Horus fiasco happens, its said that Horus' eye is also ripped out by Set... but it acts differently. If it were in fact "Entropy" moving around and killing Utu and Girru and the orcs saw it as Gruumsh's eye doing it.... we could have a decent basis for the stories of "the black flame".... as these beings may have given over their links to fire to Kossuth and somehow he has been affected.
|
| Baltas |
Posted - 08 Jun 2021 : 23:49:41
With Ramman and Assuran, I think it could be interesting if he could be his son - as Ramman/Adad is indeed in real life myths either Enlil son, brother or grandson.
This could be a part of a patricidal conflict that plagues the Untheric pantheon (ie Ramman deposing Assuran, Gilgeam deposing Enlil).
Though I guess it could also the start of darker aspect of Assuran/Hoar (ie maybe influenced by Shar? As they had an alliance in past), omehow helping the Orcish pantheon, or at least underming the Untheric pantheon.
With Eldath, I think it's possible she is connected to Ishtar, though I also think she was a Fey/Elven deity (ie Ed connected her with elves and nymphs, as did some sourcebooks like Empires of Sands, her oldest known centre of worship is Myth Nanthar, were she is worshipped among suffrace and sea elves, and her name seems to be connected to elven word "Ondath" - peace). It is possible though Eldath was born from Ishtar and a Fey/Elven deity merging (again, a bit comparable to the situation with Bast). (or maybe even had n elven connection as Ishtar?)
With Aumanator that's also quite possible he a was born from Amon-Re's partly failed subsumption of A'tar. It would also explain why A;tar is so vicious - even if she was set kinda free after Amuanator's death, she probably exists as a maddened vestige. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Jun 2021 : 21:53:50
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
It's actually stated Ramman drove of Assuran, not Gilgeam.
Still, I think Talos sponsorship, could be how he got into the Faerun pantheon initially. Or it could be in part how Assuran ascended, by inheriting/stealing part of Talos' and/or Kozah' power (if we go with early backstory of the Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons being ascended Imaskari.)
Though it could be interesting if Assuran and Enlil were originally the same god, but split. With the Netherese pantheon connection, artificier Enlil stealing part of Kozah's power, and Re of Amaunator (known as Amun among Imaskari/Raurini). Maybe even in part causing the turn of these deities for worse - Kozah splitting, and Amaunator becoming calous.
And Enlil and Re could be influenced by Shar and Jergal.
With Gilgeam, his turn to cruelty is indeed interesting. Bane also, on Nethir Vale, presents himself with a backstory similar to Gilgeam (ie hero who slew monsters - Primordials - who became despotic), though it s implied to be false (and that possibly he is Realms! Bane). It's possible Bane was subsuming Gilgeam subtly, and infuencing his personality (kinda like Shar did with Bast/Sharess).
Yeah, I could have written that better. I meant Gilgeam made it so Nergal wasn't allowed in country for his burial for some reason. Then at some unspecified time, Ramman ran out Assuran. How close these events were, and whether they may have been related.... (as in might we find out Assuran was there prior to the orcgate wars, and he betrayed Unther WITH Nergal, and later Ramman finds out when he joins). Lot of options.
I'd like to explore the Assuran thing with you more... as I feel we're both hinting around similar things, but nothing nailing. For instance, I too had some thoughts of Enlil "separating" into Assuran somehow (possibly having been betrayed, and the story of him leaving of his own free will is propaganda). I know from real world that Enlil, Anu, and Assura are often treated as the same being, and its been noted in FR that Enlil and Anu are aliases.
BTW, I picture other gods having fled as well. For instance, when Enlil "leaves" shortly thereafter Ishtar "decides to leave and give her power to Isis". I don't know about you, but gods giving up their power just seems odd. I find it much more believable that she was forced to run, and take on say the name of Eldath. Whether this is because Isis was forcing it, or Gilgeam was threatening to kill Ishtar/Eldath... to note in 1e Eldath was still a prime-bound deity.
Actually, on Amaunator and Re, I go another path.... Re is Amon-Re and he tried to merge with At'ar (successfully) and creates Amon-re-at'ar... which becomes Amon-at'ar... which becomes Amaunator. So, he becomes two distinct aspects in the world, until one is killed by Gruumsh... sponsored by Kozah/Talos into the world (to explain the whole Talos is Gruumsh fiasco).
I think we're definitely of the same mind on Gilgeam/Bane. Something happened between these two. I remember in the original draconomicon, there was even reference to something like a "banespear" that supposedly could kill Gilgeam. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 08 Jun 2021 : 21:06:24
It's actually stated Ramman drove of Assuran, not Gilgeam.
Still, I think Talos sponsorship, could be how he got into the Faerun pantheon initially. Or it could be in part how Assuran ascended, by inheriting/stealing part of Talos' and/or Kozah' power (if we go with early backstory of the Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons being ascended Imaskari.)
Though it could be interesting if Assuran and Enlil were originally the same god, but split. With the Netherese pantheon connection, artificier Enlil stealing part of Kozah's power, and Re of Amaunator (known as Amun among Imaskari/Raurini). Maybe even in part causing the turn of these deities for worse - Kozah splitting, and Amaunator becoming calous.
And Enlil and Re could be influenced by Shar and Jergal.
With Gilgeam, his turn to cruelty is indeed interesting. Bane also, on Nethir Vale, presents himself with a backstory similar to Gilgeam (ie hero who slew monsters - Primordials - who became despotic), though it s implied to be false (and that possibly he is Realms! Bane). It's possible Bane was subsuming Gilgeam subtly, and infuencing his personality (kinda like Shar did with Bast/Sharess).
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Jun 2021 : 12:26:25
Hmmm, even though I mentioned it, I hadn't really put in that idea.... of Valkur being raised up and breaking away from Talos (much as Velsharoon did, though the two gods are much different). I wonder if it couldn't be something where like "Valkur stole the eye of Kozah" as a mortal northerner and was struck with the power of divinity, maybe even so that he could fight against Umberlee, who possibly sought the power of storms at sea.... and interestingly, the original description of him says that he was prayed to by northerners to "intercede against Talos for favorable winds".
On Assuran, he interloped FROM the Untheric pantheon and BECAME Hoar the Doombringer.... but he WAS a "god-king", so he WAS prime-bound.... and as Hoar it seems like he may have no longer been prime bound. On his being cast out.... I would love to really develop a good story behind the fall of the Untheric pantheon with the orcgate wars. Nergal being buried far from his homeland, as an outcast god, at the behest of Gilgeam, and Assuran being run from the country, and then Gilgeam's character totally changing just screams something else happening behind the scenes.
On Ed's realms, I wouldn't be surprised if he had Shar, Bane, Assuran, Myrkul, Bhaal, etc... all actively worshipped in the region. I've often said, there's some ties between Gilgeam and Bane. Maybe there are ties between Talos the Destroyer and Hoar the Doombringer. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 08 Jun 2021 : 05:59:11
Well, yes it's an interesting connection.
With Stronmaus, it's also possible he represents an early split or form of the Storm God - like Kozah, he has one lihtning bolt, but it already splits into a fork. Talos himsel has an implication of being a VERY old deity, with his three staffs (possibly also connected to the three lightning bolts as a symbol) - first the staff made from the first iron forged on Toril, second is a staff of the first silver smelted, third from the third staff is carved from the first tree felled in Faerūn. Though it's possible Talos ingerited those from Kozah.
With the three gods, it is indeed possible they were created from the fragmentation of the original Storm God (Kozah?), or Talos sponsored Valkur and Assuran as gods, with the original intent of subsuming/absorbing them. With Valkur surviving thanks to Selune's and latter Tempus' protection, and Assuran due to joining the Untheric pantheon.
With the Untheric pantheon, there was also Marduk, who was also a Storm God. With Ramman older lore stated he came after the rest of Untheric gods, and drove of Assuran/Hoar.
The amount of Storm Gods though could be explained in a few ways:
- Assuran was indeed a native Torillian God, possibly the god of Storms and Justice of Imaskari and/or Turmish who allied and joined the Untheric pantheon. Possibly splitting from the original Storm God (Kozah?), or to escape Talos
- It's a paralell to Mesopotamian religion, which had multiple storm/weather gods (Enlil, Adad/Ramman, Ninurta, Marduk, and Teshub/Taru/Tarhun/Tishpak when he wasn't seen as an aspect of Marduk or Adad)
- Assuran could be seen as the "Babylonian" equivalent of Enlil - Enlil's role was minimized in the Babylonian religion proper, but as the same time, in the very closelly related Assyrian Empire's religion, Assur/Ashur was the chief god, with Assur/Ashur himself being either a regional variant of Enlil, or a god who basically very early on merged with Enil (if also latter with Anshar).
Assuran/Hoar being driven of/deposed by Ramman, also parallis some stories of real life Enlil. In Hurrian/Hittite mythology, Kumarbi (Enlil's equivalent, and syncretized with him), was deposed as the King of Gods by his son Teshub/Tarhun (syncretized/equivalent with Adad/Ramman). In Babylonian myths, there is a myth "War of the gods" about Marduk going to war against Enlil, and ultimatelly deposing him.
The Unther/Netherse pantheon indeed has some connection. Which is curious, as Ed had Shar very active in his Unther and Mulhorand:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/the-forgotten-realms-god-kings-of-mulhorand-and-unther/
But yeah, it's a discussion for another time. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Jun 2021 : 22:30:06
Well, interesting that you bring up Stronmaus, because he was one of the other entities I was thinking about who is actually a lot like Thor, but his says Forked lightning, whereas the others are 3 distinct lightning bolts.
It still feels a little weird, 3 lightning bolts and 3 gods with that symbology..... its also a little weird that Hoar/Assuran was also in the Untheric pantheon which also kind of had 3 storm entities (Assuran, Ramman, and Enlil).
The number of gods of the Untheric/Babylonian pantheon that seem to fit very well in the Netherese pantheon is kind of interesting as well (i.e. Nergal/Jergal as a death god, Shar/Anshar as a god of darkness), but that's another discussion for another day. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 07 Jun 2021 : 15:22:19
This is very interesting.
With Talos' symbol, in 2nd edition and earlier, the lightning bolts wre drawn as connected at the base, suggesting it's a forked lightning...(if a return stroke of lightning or upward/ground lightning):
https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Holy_Symbol_of_Talos
And another god with a forked lightning as a symbol...is Stronmaus. Though essentially their symbols are kinda inversions of each other.
Valkur's Symbol also has similarities to Stronmaus - being lightning coming from a cloud, and in Powers and Pantheons, each bolt was forked - with Stronmaus symbol being described like that, just with a Sun behind the clouds. (Though in the 2e Campaign setting, Valkur's 3 lightning bolts weren't forked).
Hmmm... |
|
|
