| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 02 Mar 2021 : 00:51:20
Greetings sages,
I’ve been happily researching Turmish for some time, mostly focusing on its early history, but have recently turned to the post-Spellplague period. My progress has been stymied by Xxiphu, the enormously powerful floating city of aboleths. I feel that Xxiphu would be a mighty power broker in the region and I need to make some sort of decision about what it’s been up to and what happened to it.
I’ve been frustrated by the shortage of relevant lore. I know that there is no ‘right’ or canon answer about what happened to Xxiphu. (Or possibly there is? My understanding is that neither Xxiphu nor the Abolethic Sovereignty have been mentioned since 2012).
So my question is what happened to Xxiphu? Is it still floating around the Sea of Fallen Stars causing mischief? Or did it get transported back to Abeir with the second sundering? Or did Xxiphu just suddenly and mysteriously disappear one day? Or was it destroyed? I just need a concrete decision on the matter, which I am happy to make myself, but first wanted to avail myself of the collective wisdom of Candlekeep.
Also, do you sages agree with my presumption that WoTC is unlikely to ever feature Xxiphu (beyond perhaps a throwaway reference) again? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 15 Apr 2021 : 02:02:05
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So for me, everything up through the end of 2E would be canon. After that, I pick and choose what I like. My own headcanon -- like my theory that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim -- goes into the mix, and what I call "semicanon" stuff like unofficial lore from Masters of Realmslore like Krash or Eric Boyd.
I've occasionally experienced that "semicanon" feel when doing work with Eric.
-- George Krashos
George I just want to say that the stuff you and Eric have put out recently is just so well done. Such respect for and artful weaving together of prior Realmslore, with good storytelling to boot. Superb work.
For me, and what the hell do I know, I think about canon as the parts that "we all agree on." It has a sort of community element. Of course everyone has their own version of the Realms, as we should, but part of what's so great about a website such as this is as a forum for us to come together and make decisions about "the way things are." Now I don't mean in it an oppressive way, like anyone needs to be forced to conform to anything, or in a utopian way, like we're all going to ever actually come to complete agreement and reach some promised land. I mean it in a more practical sense, like we're all colleagues in a shared project of collective worldbuilding, and whatever this core of this shared thing is, is what canonicity represents. And so excellent works, such as those put forth by Eric and George of late, works that win the hearts and minds of the community over time, become increasingly canonical, existing as a sort of semicanon.
However, I feel duty-bound to add, that there is a large corporation that also produces Realmslore, and tends to operates quite independently of the aforementioned community project, complicating matters somewhat...
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 15 Apr 2021 : 00:40:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So for me, everything up through the end of 2E would be canon. After that, I pick and choose what I like. My own headcanon -- like my theory that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim -- goes into the mix, and what I call "semicanon" stuff like unofficial lore from Masters of Realmslore like Krash or Eric Boyd.
I've occasionally experienced that "semicanon" feel when doing work with Eric.
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Apr 2021 : 21:29:32
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The city had a control panel? 
Xxiphu will never even be mentioned in my personal Realms.
At least the managed to cover up their thermal exhaust port just days before the attack.
Oh, man, I needed that laugh! Thanks! |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 13 Apr 2021 : 19:43:45
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The city had a control panel?
Xxiphu will never even be mentioned in my personal Realms.
At least the managed to cover up their thermal exhaust port just days before the attack. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 05:41:14
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
I guess my question for you Zero, and all others reading this, what does canonicity mean to you, and how does it differ (or not) from that used at the FR wiki? Here's a link to wiki's canon policy: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Wiki:Canon
(snip)
In regards of the Realms, my "personal canon" is whatever the official setting I use + my headcanons + Ed Greenwood's stuff, and then anything I like to add later. I used to rely heavily in official stuff as I have little time to worldbuild. But, as I don't like the recent Realmslore (namely, 5e's Realmslore), I have begun to worldbuild in my personal campaign, thus creating a lot of headcanon.
I tend to agree. At one point, my personal canon followed existing Realmslore, with my own additional headcanon on top of that. But then 3E happened and I started questioning that stance, and then 4E happened. And that was when I decided my personal Realms was no longer going to follow official canon.
So for me, everything up through the end of 2E would be canon. After that, I pick and choose what I like. My own headcanon -- like my theory that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim -- goes into the mix, and what I call "semicanon" stuff like unofficial lore from Masters of Realmslore like Krash or Eric Boyd. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 03:31:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
I guess my question for you Zero, and all others reading this, what does canonicity mean to you, and how does it differ (or not) from that used at the FR wiki? Here's a link to wiki's canon policy: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Wiki:Canon
Are you asking what is my general stance about canonicity, or just about canon in the Realms? I usually follow the canon of the product I'm enjoying at the moment, but I really like when I have the option of having my personal canon (or headcanon), as happens in D&D and some videogames I like (like Dragon Age).
In regards of the Realms, my "personal canon" is whatever the official setting I use + my headcanons + Ed Greenwood's stuff, and then anything I like to add later. I used to rely heavily in official stuff as I have little time to worldbuild. But, as I don't like the recent Realmslore (namely, 5e's Realmslore), I have begun to worldbuild in my personal campaign, thus creating a lot of headcanon. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 01:58:20
-That old link reminded me, I got a warning/ban (I forget) back in the day on the WotC because my "job" was to keep track of and recommend threads that were posted in the wrong areas and there were so many lore questions being posted in the LFR section(s) that I put tickets in to get moved to the Forgotten Realms section(s) that whoever the LFR person was at the time got angry because traffic there started dropping noticeably. |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 01:55:56
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
Thank you Zeromaru for this, I had no idea. Do you have any source saying the first two years were canon and the later years were not?
Here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14943
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
LFR content is canon up to a point. I don't know exactly which adventure it stops with, but as of FY2011 all LFR modules are no longer reviewed by WotC-- meaning the canonical integrity is removed at that point.
And this topic rescued from the old WotC forums.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13751
quote:
Change of Power: WotC is turning the campaign over to the community, but in a structured fashion. LFR will still have contractors (the Globals) supervising the campaign by shepherding the plot, setting release dates and approving adventures. WoTC will still offer guidance or be involved as needed. For example, Chris Tulach is still the Organized Play Content Developer, but he will no longer have any day to day management of LFR. Everything else is now a community/volunteer effort, including adventure creation. If this works, there is hope is that this new LFR model can serve as a template for any future community-driven campaigns, whatever they might be. The Globals are now in charge of almost 100% of the campaign in almost every way. Most of these changes will be behind the scenes and the player base will likely not notice them. One particular change is of note: WOTC is 100% removing itself from approving adventures. This means that LFR will no longer be canon with the exception of certain special events that we work out with them, if any. While this may initially seem unfortunate, it is really for the best as well will no longer have to work on their timeline. We should be able to make things move much faster now.
I know that LFR was canon up until the year 2 adventures. I don't what were the canonical special events they did, however. And as far as I know, the AL adventures are not canon either. In fact, only official published stuff from WotC is canon nowadays.
I see Zero, this is very helpful. Thank you! You know, I feel that my ideas of what is canon or not is perhaps too-heavily influenced by the Fandom wiki (which I believe you are a big contributor in!). According to the canon page there, it says there is no "hard and fast rules" for what is canon according to WoTC, although you are absolutely right in the describing the spirit of the situation, namely from Wizards point of view only their (recent) officially published stuff is what matters.
I guess my question for you Zero, and all others reading this, what does canonicity mean to you, and how does it differ (or not) from that used at the FR wiki? Here's a link to wiki's canon policy: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Wiki:Canon |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 00:56:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
Thank you Zeromaru for this, I had no idea. Do you have any source saying the first two years were canon and the later years were not?
Here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14943
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
LFR content is canon up to a point. I don't know exactly which adventure it stops with, but as of FY2011 all LFR modules are no longer reviewed by WotC-- meaning the canonical integrity is removed at that point.
And this topic rescued from the old WotC forums.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13751
quote:
Change of Power: WotC is turning the campaign over to the community, but in a structured fashion. LFR will still have contractors (the Globals) supervising the campaign by shepherding the plot, setting release dates and approving adventures. WoTC will still offer guidance or be involved as needed. For example, Chris Tulach is still the Organized Play Content Developer, but he will no longer have any day to day management of LFR. Everything else is now a community/volunteer effort, including adventure creation. If this works, there is hope is that this new LFR model can serve as a template for any future community-driven campaigns, whatever they might be. The Globals are now in charge of almost 100% of the campaign in almost every way. Most of these changes will be behind the scenes and the player base will likely not notice them. One particular change is of note: WOTC is 100% removing itself from approving adventures. This means that LFR will no longer be canon with the exception of certain special events that we work out with them, if any. While this may initially seem unfortunate, it is really for the best as well will no longer have to work on their timeline. We should be able to make things move much faster now.
I know that LFR was canon up until the year 2 adventures. I don't what were the canonical special events they did, however. And as far as I know, the AL adventures are not canon either. In fact, only official published stuff from WotC is canon nowadays. |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 13:31:30
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The thing here is that the LFR program was canon only for the first 2 years of adventures. So, only the adventures released in 2008 and 2009 can be taken into account, the rest had no support from WotC and contradicted with later official information. Those adventures you mention are from year 4, and cannot be taken as a source of what happened, at least in the canonical Realms. However, that is a good explanation for a homecampaign (not mine, tho. The Abolethic Sovereignty is still a threat in my campaign).
As for dates, year 1 adventures started in 1479 DR, which means year 2 are in 1480, and year 4 should have take place in 1482 had they be canon.
Thank you Zeromaru for this, I had no idea. Do you have any source saying the first two years were canon and the later years were not? I confess to hoping they are canon, though, just to get some resolution. Generally I have struggled to find details about the LFR program, and implicitly assumed they were either all canon or were not. Also, thank you for the DR years, I again had no idea they connected to real world years in such a one to one fashion.
As to your home campaign, I just want to hasten to add that the fall of Xxiphu in these LFR modules in no way signifies the fall of the Abolethic Sovereignty. As I mentioned, the Eldest aboleth very much survives, and the Adventurer League modules I mentioned earlier (DDAL5-18 and DDAL5-19) describe how if one gets their hands on the artifact the Eye of Xxiphu they would be able to raise Xxiphu once again above the Sea of Fallen Stars. I'm again unsure if these AL modules are canon, but if they are, then Xxiphu's destruction is canon whether or not the LFR modules explanation of how Xxiphu was destroyed is canon. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 10:20:16
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Canon or not, what a grand entrance only to just fade away into the background with a little fart noise.
That's how AL rolls. Take the implied cool outside parts of a campaign's environment and then give them a harmless spin-off.
If you pick up a 4th edition adventure (or at least the ones I have) they will look very similar to the AL content- controlled modal guidance adventures.
They typically involve resurrecting an abandoned piece of lore and take one theoretical chunk of it, eradicate everything else, build up hype over the one artifact or other mid-campaign hook, destroy all trace of the artifact or what have you in the climax.
Mass Manufactured Epic Pointless Consequenceless Adventure. At least when skimming. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 05:56:03
-I vaguely recall some kind of keystone/control thing from the first novel in that trilogy. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 03:50:03
The city had a control panel?
Xxiphu will never even be mentioned in my personal Realms. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 03:39:24
Those LFR adventures are very difficult to reconcile lore wise.
-- George Krashos |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 09 Apr 2021 : 22:33:55
The thing here is that the LFR program was canon only for the first 2 years of adventures. So, only the adventures released in 2008 and 2009 can be taken into account, the rest had no support from WotC and contradicted with later official information. Those adventures you mention are from year 4, and cannot be taken as a source of what happened, at least in the canonical Realms. However, that is a good explanation for a homecampaign (not mine, tho. The Abolethic Sovereignty is still a threat in my campaign).
As for dates, year 1 adventures started in 1479 DR, which means year 2 are in 1480, and year 4 should have take place in 1482 had they be canon. |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 09 Apr 2021 : 20:36:18
So I think I found out how, exactly, Xxiphu was destroyed.
It happened in two Living Forgotten Realms adventures (SPEC4-1 'Cerulean Dreams' and SPEC4-2 'The Writhing Obelisk') released in 2012. For those that don't know, the LFR was the Adventurer's League of 4th edition.
What happens in the adventure is a group of adventurers is hired in Brassune by the Order of the Cerulean Sign, who equips them with a special Psychic Backlash ability which allows them to infect the Aboleths of Xxiphu with some psionic virus/handicap. They are I believe teleported to the prison onboard Xxiphu and rescue the prisoners held captive there.
Simultaneously, and in coordination with the Order of the Cerulean Sign, the Plaguechanged Thing below Westgate sends another group of adventurers to Xxiphu, who take advantage of the chaos caused by the first group, and manage to destroy the city's control panel, causing it to fall into the Sea of Fallen Stars.
Granted, it is not a total destruction. The oldest aboleth, The Eldest, survives, and shortly thereafter supports the demon lord Dagon in his attack on Myth Nantar, as described in the LFR battle interactive ADCP4-1 "City of Destinies."
There you have it folks. Kind of like a combination of the plot of Independence Day (infecting with a virus) and Star Wars (a plucky group of adventurers infiltrating the megaship). Not sure if it is the best way it could have been done, but I'm glad it was resolved somehow. I wish I knew what dates Dalereckoning corresponded to these LFR modules though. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Mar 2021 : 00:27:45
-Canon or not, what a grand entrance only to just fade away into the background with a little fart noise. The end of 3e and the early 4e days made such a big deal about the Far Realms and Elder Evils and all of that only for none of that to really be relevant. Apparently they were involved in some going-ons, but nothing on the level of being an existential threat. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 19 Mar 2021 : 18:54:29
I guess that adventure is related to the events of the novels, that as I mentioned earlier, happened a century ago in the Realms timeline. Xxiphu was destroyed and sent to the deeps of the the Sea of Fallen Stars. What happened in 4e was a resurgence of the Abolethic Sovereignty. Just my two cents. |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 19 Mar 2021 : 15:22:53
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I don't think the AL adventures are canon, but I could be wrong.
Yeah I am unsure if they are canon or not either. Does anyone know? My hope is that they are ruled canonical, however, due to the relative scarcity of lore in recent years (especially for areas outside the sword coast). For example, if the modules are canon, we have a canonical answer to what happened to Xxiphu! (It was destroyed). If they are not canon, then Xxiphu's whereabouts is completely unknown despite its terrifying power.
Now of course, if the adventurer league modules are canon, then there could be all sorts of contradictions and weird things that result as there seem to be quite a few of them. But my preference is to have too much and contradictory lore (that can be sorted out like the great and creative sages did with Jergal: The Lord of the End of Everything) then to have no lore at all. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 19 Mar 2021 : 14:34:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
Just wanted to report the results of my recent investigations. There actually has been some updates about Xxiphu, from the adventurer's league modules DDAL5-18: The Mysterious Isle and DDAL5-19: Eye of Xxiphu. While the exact story of what happened to Xxiphu is vague, we learn from these modules that,
Xxiphu "was destroyed several years ago, when it threatened the world." Apparently a part of it survived, the artifact called the Eye of Xxiphu which sank into the depths of the Sea of Fallen Stars, and was recovered by a Morkoth. This Morkoth does not want anyone to get the artifact, as it will apparently allow the creation of a new Xxiphu, described as a mighty Abolethic skyskip.
So, assuming that these modules are canon, this means Xxiphu was destroyed 'several years ago' from whenever the modules were set. These are adventurer modules for The Storm King's Thunder, which is I believe set in 1485 DR. Thus the adventurer modules are probably a year or two after 1485 DR. Thus I think a consistent date for Xxiphu's destruction 'several years before' would 1484 DR, and it was likely destroyed over the Sea of the Fallen Stars (explaining why the artifact was found there, and it is also was where Xxiphu was last reported being I believe in 1479 DR). This is also during the sundering when many skymotes are falling, so perhaps Xxiphu fell into the ocean, but now I am speculating. They would be a fun ruins to explore, though.
I don't think the AL adventures are canon, but I could be wrong. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 19 Mar 2021 : 14:31:34
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Gone in 1490?
Man, too many flying cities to deal with in the 1480's and then all of the sudden we got no flying cities.
There is still one flying city at least, Airspur. |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 19 Mar 2021 : 14:13:19
Just wanted to report the results of my recent investigations. There actually has been some updates about Xxiphu, from the adventurer's league modules DDAL5-18: The Mysterious Isle and DDAL5-19: Eye of Xxiphu. While the exact story of what happened to Xxiphu is vague, we learn from these modules that,
Xxiphu "was destroyed several years ago, when it threatened the world." Apparently a part of it survived, the artifact called the Eye of Xxiphu which sank into the depths of the Sea of Fallen Stars, and was recovered by a Morkoth. This Morkoth does not want anyone to get the artifact, as it will apparently allow the creation of a new Xxiphu, described as a mighty Abolethic skyskip.
So, assuming that these modules are canon, this means Xxiphu was destroyed 'several years ago' from whenever the modules were set. These are adventurer modules for The Storm King's Thunder, which is I believe set in 1485 DR. Thus the adventurer modules are probably a year or two after 1485 DR. Thus I think a consistent date for Xxiphu's destruction 'several years before' would 1484 DR, and it was likely destroyed over the Sea of the Fallen Stars (explaining why the artifact was found there, and it is also was where Xxiphu was last reported being I believe in 1479 DR). This is also during the sundering when many skymotes are falling, so perhaps Xxiphu fell into the ocean, but now I am speculating. They would be a fun ruins to explore, though. |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 03 Mar 2021 : 10:56:28
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Gone in 1490?
Man, too many flying cities to deal with in the 1480's and then all of the sudden we got no flying cities.
Very true. Maybe it shouldn't be in 1490, (another choice could be 1484 'The Year of the Awakened Sleepers' as I think The Eldest, inside of Xxiphu, is described as in a deathlike sleep. So possibly in 1484 The Eldest awakens and hides Xxiphu or transports it elsewhere.)
Were it left to me, probably I would have had Xxiphu disappear at a different time. Because, as you say, we have a ton of flying cities in the 1480s and then none by the 1490s, and it would maybe make sense to spread them out.
However, if you think about it, haven't we been here before? We had too many flying cities to deal with in the -330s and then all of the sudden we got no flying cities.  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Mar 2021 : 10:08:26
Thats what happens when you let accountants and marketing consultants become game designers and world builders. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 03 Mar 2021 : 10:00:39
Gone in 1490?
Man, too many flying cities to deal with in the 1480's and then all of the sudden we got no flying cities. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 03 Mar 2021 : 02:32:56
Yes and no. It's threat was neutered in 1396 (or so). The novels take place "in the past", but by the 4e era (1479) they were once again a threat, being active in at least two fronts (Neverwinter and the Sea of Fallen Stars). |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 02 Mar 2021 : 22:29:50
Been too long since I read the books, but didn't it get sort of neutered at the end of the trilogy? |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 02 Mar 2021 : 19:42:23
Thanks for your input sages. It is as I feared: something I must decide with very little hard information to go on, and with the looming possibility of future WotC decisions invalidating my lore.
I'll go then with the simplest and most-noncommittal option. Xxiphu simply disappears. Maybe it is still in Faerun? Maybe it went to another plane of existence? Maybe it returned to Abeir? Or possibly it it using advanced magic/psionics to conceal itself from sight? Learned sages cannot agree, but they all agree we probably haven't heard the last of agents of the Far Realm.
When did Xxiphu depart? Looking at the roll of years, a nice choice would be 1490DR: The Year of the Star Walker's Return. Given the association of the Far Realm with the evil stars, Xxiphu could be the 'Star Walkers' and the 'Return' symbolizes Xxiphu's (apparent) departure from Faerun.
And in practice I will ignore it unless Wizards ever makes it come back.
That said, I do like Leshynmul, the aboleth and kuo-toa city dug in the tunnels beneath the Sea of Fallen Stars. So maybe some Xxiphu aboleths migrated there (or were consumed by the local aboleths, who gained the memories of Abeiran aboleths). |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 02 Mar 2021 : 18:07:19
If so, it was behind scenes, because it was never dealt with in any novel or adventure so far. And if they did that way.... it's really underwhelming... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Mar 2021 : 17:07:24
-Realistically, it represents a threat to literal reality and probably would've/should've been dealt with by...pretty much anybody and everybody, |
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