| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 16 Feb 2021 : 04:50:12
These snakelike beings were detailed in MC11 (a Monstrous Compendium just for the Forgotten Realms) and in my delving into old monsters I came across them again recently.
The details on their origins are scant but there is something really reminiscent in them of the strange alien nature that Spellweavers take. Even the names have a similar feel, weavers versus warpers. Has anyone ever used these creatures in their game? Is there any more info outside of MC11? Any homebrew? If not, I just found my next project. |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Feb 2021 : 16:37:17
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
The monstrous compendium entry actually contradicts itself.
"The dimensional warper has never been encountered on the Prime Material Plane."
is followed by:
"Occasionally, for reasons of their own, dimensional warpers have communicated with humans and demihumans. These adventurers have reported that the warpers come to the Prime Material Plane to learn about the creatures native to the plane. However, only those warpers who are old and wise can visit this plane."
Yeah, I read those two statements like this "they spoke to humans and demihumans on another plane, where they learned that the dimensional warpers DO come to the prime material but noone ever NOTICES them there". Still, like I said above, I think that "never" is way too definitive a word and should be taken with salt. Its more likely that these creatures are so hard to "find" that they're watching people who don't even know they're there. I think it would be interesting if their duo-dimension ability was a little "warped" and allowed them to hide IN someone's shadow and ride in it or something. Granted, this and what I noted above starts to make these creatures sound a LOT more like shadow creatures, BUT at the same time their description is almost like they are "shadowing" us and watching what we do.
In terms of 5e rules, I think they should not only have proficiency with stealth, but actually expertise (i.e. double proficiency bonus) with this skill. It might also be interesting if these creatures are the enemies of Malaugrym and/or doppelgangers. Maybe they report their findings back to the spellweavers as well, but without actually KNOWING who they are reporting back to (i.e. they bring reports back to a certain place that are relayed verbally to an artificial construct.... an illusion or somesuch that collects the information and relays it magically elsewhere). In order to use these folks effectively, they need to be an information network, but who are they informing, what are they interested in watching in particular, and why are they watching? |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 17 Feb 2021 : 19:01:51
The monstrous compendium entry actually contradicts itself.
"The dimensional warper has never been encountered on the Prime Material Plane."
is followed by:
"Occasionally, for reasons of their own, dimensional warpers have communicated with humans and demihumans. These adventurers have reported that the warpers come to the Prime Material Plane to learn about the creatures native to the plane. However, only those warpers who are old and wise can visit this plane."
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Feb 2021 : 17:43:03
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The dimensional warper has never been encountered on the Prime Material Plane.
Yet these creatures are specifically listed in a forgotten realms monstrous compendium. Now, obviously "never" is a definitive word, and perhaps that should be noted as "its not been documented or noted by anyone recently". Their only known use was in For Duty and Deity, and in that they were for some weird reason found in a barracks in the abyss in the town of Samora where they are not even a threat. So, why are these creatures known in the FR, but haven't been encountered in the FR? They are also "watchers".
I'd be hesitant to use the inclusion in a Monstrous Compendium appendix as proof of anything. Some of those appendices were clearly "okay, what else can we toss in there? Come on, we need twenty more pages!"
That said, if you make them some sort of favored servant for a particular Realms deity or connect them to a powerful planar entity known to have strong connections to the Realms, then you've got an angle for their inclusion. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Feb 2021 : 16:24:44
The creatures are interesting, but they need some kind of twist to them to make them "fit" better. Its perhaps worth looking at them a little more to see how they might need a change from their 2e representation.
One thing to note with these creatures regarding the original canon source
The dimensional warper has never been encountered on the Prime Material Plane.
Yet these creatures are specifically listed in a forgotten realms monstrous compendium. Now, obviously "never" is a definitive word, and perhaps that should be noted as "its not been documented or noted by anyone recently". Their only known use was in For Duty and Deity, and in that they were for some weird reason found in a barracks in the abyss in the town of Samora where they are not even a threat. So, why are these creatures known in the FR, but haven't been encountered in the FR? They are also "watchers".
Its for this reason that I think these creatures should be made residents of a transitive plane that can SEE onto the prime material. Maybe their eyes allow them to see both at once.
I can visually see why you are tying these creatures to the spell weavers, as in some ways they appear similar. They could also be a creation of the sarrukh used to spy.
So, what are their abilities? Well, they "warp the dimensions of things". They make things bigger or smaller via enlarge. They enable things to move faster or slower via haste/slow. They can "jump" from one place to another instantaneously via dimension door. They can also use duo-dimension (i.e. make themselves flat). The most powerful members of this race (about 1 in 6) can stop time, but they only use this to escape and not for purposes like killing.
So, these dimensional warpers can't move across dimensions. They are "trapped" in whatever plane they are in, unless they use some other magic like a portal to move around. This is how they are written.
I vote, to make them more useful, we somewhat CHANGE how they are written. For instance, perhaps these creatures exist in "extradimensional space". By that, I mean... we cast "rope trick" and it creates an extradimensional space with a "link" to the prime material. You cross the boundary and you are in this little pocket of extradimensional space. So, what if there's something special to their "duo-dimension" ability to make themselves "flat" that allows them to traverse from "the place of extradimensional space" to "the prime material space". Essentially they make themselves "thin" enough to "slide" in between the edges of this opening on extradimensional space and into the real world... but when they do so they're effectively existing on both planes. The majority of their bodies are still on the extradimensional space and they are just presenting a portion of themselves on the prime material. Maybe they can only interact with the prime while that "link" they used to cross over still exists (so, they can come to the prime material because someone cast's rope trick, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, or they can use a player's portable hole or bag of holding as a means to traverse to the prime).
With this idea in mind, these creatures may have had some involvement with watching the Imaskari, who were some of the masters of extradimensional spaces. Perhaps even the Imaskari travelled to where these creatures exist and learned from them. Perhaps the spellweavers were using them for this task of spying on the Imaskari.
Also, perhaps these creatures can use ANY source of a link between the prime material and some other "place" as a means to "slide" into the prime material. So, a gate to the Abyss may provide a perfect place to "slide" into a drow city, etc...
Next, let's look at the duo-dimension spell in 2e. In essence, it lets someone become invisible if they're viewed "sideways", slide through the thinnest of openings, and a large portion of their body in 2nd edition says that its on the astral plane. They can only be seen with true seeing if they're sideways. The spell is also noted as a spell that's associated with "shadow" and "dimension" magics.
So, maybe a better spin on these creatures is to make them a creature of the plane of shadow, and maybe they can use the connections between the prime and "extradimensional" spaces or links to the plane of shadow to "slide" onto the prime while they are duo-dimensioned. Maybe their dimension door is more like a shadow jump from one shadow to another.
I note that the drawing of them shows them wearing boots. Perhaps they are known, like dark elves, for using something akin to boots of elvenkind that make them silent, but maybe these items only work on creatures of their race who are using their specific duo-dimension ability?
Perhaps giving them some ability to be on the plane of shadow and "ride" someone's shadow and view through its perspective to spy on a party of people on the prime material? So, for instance, if someone has a bag of holding, one of these creatures might ride in that person's shadow, and as they traverse someplace, they might use the bag as a means to come to the real world and pick up something they might need via their duo-dimension ability... shadow jump a couple times to get where they need.. and then pick it up, and return to the plane of shadow?
To note, from a visual perspective... remember the "demogorgon" creature on stranger things that was in some shadowy place? These things are kind of starting to take on that vibe for me. They've got the whole tentacle arms, and the "snake like head" might open up to reveal a weirdly fanged maw, and maybe their wings serve some purpose to envelop things and then do something to them.... absorb them, turn them to shadow, etc....
Some other concepts that came along after 2e might also fit with these creatures. For instance, the idea of blinking back and forth between the coterminous border ethereal and prime material could just as easily occur with the shadowfell and the prime since they are coexistent at places.
Physically, the creatures lack hands (they have a hook-like claw on the end of their snake like arms), so they can't per se "hold" things like a normal person would. But what if they have a "shadow hand"... something akin to a magehand that's tied to them... for manipulating things.
These are the first things that pop in my head. Maybe they'll spawn something for you and you can improve upon them. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Feb 2021 : 13:56:44
I've never liked the idea of Faerie being damaged or falling, myself. It's its own dimension/plane -- it shouldn't be able to become entirely damaged, thinks I.
My preferred spin is that creatures from Faerie migrated to the mortal world for some reason -- and that first elven homeworld was also called Faerie. It's that world that fell, not an entire plane.
Also, for me, the Feywild is not Faerie. I prefer to think that the Feywild is another plane, strongly influenced by Faerie, but existing "between" Faerie and Toril's Prime. Sort of an intermediate plane, easier to get to, and with a mix of Faerie and Prime elements. (The place the Lythari go to is its own area within the Feywild, and also not Faerie)
Similarly, for me, the Shadowfell is simply another mixed place, this one between the Prime and the Shadow plane.
Again, this is all my preferred spin. I've never liked the Feywild or Shadowfell, in large part because of how they were introduced. |
| maransreth |
Posted - 17 Feb 2021 : 06:18:13
In regard to homebrew and the number of races that are the remnant of an old universe/plane/world, I made up a tale that in my mind at least ties different points/concepts together.
**Warning - Long read** I also posted this on the Sages of Forgotten Realms Facebook group about a week or so ago.
This is an attempt to explain the multiple "broken" or destroyed universes that powerful creatures are the remnants of, as well as link the planes and crystal spheres together.
Premise:
Energy is never lost, only transformed
Ao has a master
The races that are all that remain from shattered universes
In the beginning was nothing. The next a being existed. It had no form, only sentience. With its coming, energy came forth as well. Part of this energy is the remains of nothing (Entropy), that wants to return to nothingness and interferes with the being's descendants.
The ultimate (primary) being used the energy that came into being at the same time to create other beings. These beings also had no form, only sentience. The creation of these new (secondary) beings created more energy. How many secondary beings were created is up to you. But eventually there was no more initial energy for the ultimate being to use. The initial energy was transformed into the secondary beings and energy for the secondary beings to use.
(Secondary beings - think Ao. And the master Ao refers to is the ultimate being)
Each secondary being was urged by the ultimate being to use the energy released with its (secondary being's) creation to create. Create what? What the secondary beings were to create depended upon what the secondary being could think of. These creations are the various original universes.
The first set of secondary beings created universes that gave form to the universes of the leShay, spellweavers, Far Realms, ancestors of the initial demons, etc, etc. Whatever ancient races, empires you desire.
(This allows for the leShay and spellweavers to both be the remnants of empires/universes, as well as obyriths and other ancient and powerful beings)
One secondary being waited and pondered what to create. It saw the universes created by its peers and acknowledged the variety of creatures and structures its peers created. It decided to create a way to traverse between the universes and took components from the universes - elemental planes; positive & negative energy; the outer planes and the Astral and Ethereal Planes that connected the planes together. As the planes took shape and touched the universes, the secondary being used the energy generated by the existing universes touching and overlapping to "link" each universe with the planes. This link also "allowed" for beings in the universe to "discover" planar magic.
Thus did ancient beings learn how to move from their own universe into other universes and even the planes.
I see the universes of the secondary beings as bouncing balls near each other. The effect of bouncing and touching/overlapping other universes created energy that the planar secondary being used to generate links between its creation (the Planes) and the universes. All universes are separate (Prime Material Planes in the old parlance) but the planes overlay all universes.
The next set of secondary beings came into being - Ao (Realmspace), Ptah for Greyspace (I think), whoever created Krynnspace, etc. While these latter secondary beings were still equivalent to their older peers, there was not as much energy to create. The new creations by the later secondary beings were smaller in size than the original secondary beings, and shared the same "universe". Each secondary being was responsible for a Crystal Sphere. The creation of Crystal Spheres, planets and other spatial bodies generated more energy that was transformed by the secondary beings into tertiary beings - deities for each Crystal Sphere. These new tertiary beings used the energy released with their creation to aid the secondary being who created them by furthering creation in their Crystal Sphere.
These tertiary beings were the last of the beings and differentiated from the ultimate and secondary beings by taking a shape as part of their sentience. Finally phlogiston was created when the Crystal Spheres were created. [The number of Crystal Spheres depends on you]
If you want to include primordials in your world, it is at this point that primordials would also be created. Whether primordials were created by the later secondary beings, or something else is up to you.
After the creation of the original universes and the new Crystal Spheres in one larger universe, some secondary beings, who had not created anything, wanted to create beings that would be found in any world/universe/plane/Sphere that would have them. These secondary beings had seen the forms that the tertiary beings had created in the Crystal Spheres and decided to morph into multiple beings with forms. Thus were born the elven, dwarven, halfling, orc, goblin, etc pantheons. Each pantheon had a "primary" being who would lead the pantheon. The pantheon would work together to create mortal creatures in their own image and seed the mortal creatures through the universes and Crystal Spheres.
As time passed and the knowledge of the Crystal Sphere tertiary beings grew, they learnt that they were not unique, i.e. there were planes and other Crystal Spheres and even universes not constrained by spheres. Some tertiary beings were content to stay and assist where they were. Others hungered to learn what else was out there to explore. Their initial attempts to leave their Crystal Sphere via phlogiston met with failure. Attempting to enter phlogiston resulted in extreme pain in the tertiary beings. Some beings died and only after many deaths did the tertiary beings seek alternate avenues.
One avenue that was open to tertiary beings was the Planes. By this time the Planes had matured and evolved into "worlds" of the own. No longer simply a flat surface, the Planes had adapted by taking elements/components/attributes of the worlds/universes they touched. Thus there were mountain ranges, deep forests, crystal blue waters and everything in between for the tertiary beings to explore. There were even other beings - the universal pantheons and mortal creatures that lives on the Planes. By studying the new options, some tertiary beings decided to settle on a Plane that suited them. Other tertiary beings travelled to Crystal Spheres and decided to stay.
Now to the end of this tale:
One universe contained a race now called spell weavers. The spell weavers extended their empire into these new Crystal Sphere universes and the last Crystal Sphere reached was Realmspace, in particular the planet Toril. There the spell weavers created a node at modern day Ascore.
When the spell weaver experiment, called Disjunction by Eric & George, failed (-3939 DR) the spell weaver's universe was destroyed, rippling across time (forwards and backwards in time) and space, impacting all other secondary being's universes - the leShay empire/universe was destroyed; the initial demon universe with the obyriths destroyed; the Faerie universe damaged so that the elves of Tintageer fled from Faerie to Toril; Far Realms "leaked" into the surviving universes and next set of universes. If you use the Feywild and Shadowfell, it could be said that Faerie was so fractured that the Feywild and Shadowfell were created. This then allows for the Shadar-Kai in the Shadowfell.
Have all secondary beings created something? Maybe, maybe not. That is up to you to decide. What happened to secondary beings who had created? Did they still exist, did they pass on? It is known that Ao still interacts in Realmspace.
This is a tale that uses elements from all D&D editions that I currently remember and hopefully weaves a story of how planes, deities, races, etc are found on multiple worlds, planes and be similar yet different.
Making the above simple:
First nothing
Then the ultimate being came into existence
Energy released with this emergence
Ultimate being used this energy to create secondary beings
The creation of secondary beings released more energy
The secondary beings used the energy to create universes
The universes were spherical shaped that "bounced" up and down and occasionally touched or overlapped
One secondary being created the Planes as a way for beings from the universes to move between universes
The Planes were original Chaos but over time, possibly shaped by a being, into the Planes known today
#9675; Upper Planes, Lower Planes, Positive Energy and Negative Energy planes, Elemental Planes, Limbo, Astral Plane, etc, etc.
The planar secondary being used energy generated by the "bouncing" universes to create links between the Planes and each universe the touched the planes.
The links in turn allowed planar magic to be discovered
Later secondary beings created smaller universes in self-contained Crystal Spheres as the amount of energy available to them was not as much as their older peers
Creation of Crystal Spheres created phlogiston to "join" the Crystal Spheres into one large "universe"
The later secondary beings created tertiary beings, i.e. deities specific to their Crystal Sphere/universe
The deities/tertiary beings took a form when they came into being
Not all secondary beings had created. After seeing the older universes, the Planes, Crystal Spheres, creatures, races, nature, etc, some secondary beings desired to create creatures that could be found across multiple worlds/planes/universes/Spheres. These secondary beings used the energy available to them to transform into a number of forms who looked alike and had a similar outlook. The pantheon had a "primary" being who led the other beings/deities of the pantheon.
These universal pantheons used the remaining energy available to them to create mortal races in their image
Tertiary beings, deities, cannot leave their Crystal Sphere via phlogiston. They move away via the Planes
Some deities decided to remain in their Crystal Sphere, others moved to the Planes, others moved onto other Crystal Spheres
Spell weaver empire moved into the newer Crystal Spheres, ending in Realmspace
The experiment/Disjunction was enacted just as the last spell weaver was "born" on Toril - Jergal.
The backlash/failure of the experiment destroyed the spell weaver universe, rippling across time and space and affecting the "original" secondary beings' universes - not the later secondary being creations - Crystal Spheres
#9675; This destruction destroyed the leShay universe
#9675; fractured the obyrith universe and said surviving obyrith fled to the Planes, settling in one now known as the Abyss
#9675; Faerie was damaged, moon and sun elves came to Toril. If you use Feywild and Shadowfell, the damage to Faerie was extensive enough that the Feywild and Shadowfell came into being and settled around the planets (Prime Material Plane) of each Crystal Sphere
#9675; Far Realms universe "leaked" into the Crystal Spheres
#9675; Anything else
Creatures have two methods to move away from the "homeworld":
#9675; Via the Planes
#9675; Via phlogiston in spelljammers to other planets or Crystal Spheres
Tertiary beings cannot move through phlogiston, only using the planes
|
| Seethyr |
Posted - 16 Feb 2021 : 18:24:01
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Here's a homebrew idea:
The illithids once destroyed a solar system, home of the planet Talaron (DRAGON 281, Mind Lords of Talaron). From there, a race of refugees known as the Talaire came to wherever one's main Material Plane campaign world is set.
The Dimension Warpers could also be refugees from the same world/crystal sphere, and their information-seeking focus could be a form of vigilance to escape a potential future cataclysm, and preserve the memories of the lost.
I'm probably going to include their participation in some manner in an ongoing war at the planet of Glyth for my Realmspace project.
Heh, thats a pretty cool article. Makes me quite upset that psionics have yet to really get their due. So much good stuff to take from the 3e days particularly.
Just as a note, the article said that Talaron was another plane. I think that works pretty well, I just need some more psionics! |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 16 Feb 2021 : 17:09:07
Here's a homebrew idea:
The illithids once destroyed a solar system, home of the planet Talaron (DRAGON 281, Mind Lords of Talaron). From there, a race of refugees known as the Talaire came to wherever one's main Material Plane campaign world is set.
The Dimension Warpers could also be refugees from the same world/crystal sphere, and their information-seeking focus could be a form of vigilance to escape a potential future cataclysm, and preserve the memories of the lost.
I'm probably going to include their participation in some manner in an ongoing war at the planet of Glyth for my Realmspace project.
|
|
|
