| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Feb 2021 : 22:31:40
Just curious, as I was reading something else. I know from realmspace we're given that Selune is size D and that size D is
Size D - 1,000-4,000 miles in diameter
But have we ever been given ANYTHING that was more exacting?
I only ask because I was thinking that the formula for the surface area of a sphere if 4(pi)* radius squared, so the surface area is variably between 3.14 million and 50.24 million square miles. I was mainly kind of curious to compare its surface area to say Faerun.
EDIT: Well, google found the answer to be presented in the 3e FRCS and a difference I wouldn't have expected between it and realmspace (realmspace says Selune is at a distance of 183,000 miles). Apparently the 3e campaign setting says different and I never noted it. Ironically realmspace is closer to what our moon/earth relationship is like.
from 3e frcs
Selune
Toril's moon is known as Selune. Through careful observations and persistent divinations, sages have determined that it circles Toril at a distance of about twenty thousand miles. While Selune in the sky appears no larger than a human hand held at arm's length, it is a world in its own right, easily two thousand miles across.
So selune is roughly 12 million square miles.
googling "how many square miles is north america" says its a 9.5 million.
So, since we know selune has some lakes on it unlike our moon (maybe a quarter of it?) the surface area of Selune is roughly the size of north america.
Damn that's a lot of land mass to play with. |
| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 17 Feb 2021 : 19:48:41
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just curious, as I was reading something else. I know from realmspace we're given that Selune is size D and that size D is
Size D - 1,000-4,000 miles in diameter
But have we ever been given ANYTHING that was more exacting?
It would only become necessary if someone ried to make a map of entire Selune, and there isn't even a map of entire Abeir-Toril, so...
"Realmspace", like those other 2 sphere splats, is not a great source, but better than nothing. At least it didn't trample the lore.
Also, "oops, Kisonraathiisar accidentally shot the moon" as revealed later dovetails into that funny habit of Selunites and sudden appearance of the Tears.  So it was accepted. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Feb 2021 : 21:34:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, playing on the idea a bit further... None of this is canon, and it does disregard what's written in Realmspace.
Selūne is hollow. It could be hundreds of miles thick, but there's a hollow interior, a huge open space.
In the center of the moon is a gigantic gemstone, miles across. It is radiant for roughly 10 hours a day, then slowly dims over the course of 2 hours, until fully dark. Ten hours later, it starts slowly brightening again, reaching full brightness after 2 hours. The mechanism that powers and controls this is unknown; no one has ever managed to pierce the unseen barriers around the gemstone, and the closer one gets, the less magic works (much like approaching the spire in the center of the Outlands, in Planescape).
At regular intervals on the moon's interior surface stand large, unabandoned cities. The original inhabitants/builders of these cities are long gone; no one has found any depiction of the inhabitants, nor any remains of their dead. Some of the dominant architectural features of the cities include smoothly and gradually undulating floors and walls, ramps for accessing different levels, round or oblong windows and doorways, and a general lack of the straight lines favored by other races. These features lead many to believe that the original inhabitants were yuan-ti or a physically similar race, but there is little conclusive proof of this.
Oddly, even the still-uninhabited cities remain pristine; some magic keeps animals and plants from reclaiming them.
During the rise of Netheril, many arcanists wondered what was on the moon. By chance, one arcanist found a large hole near the moon's southern pole. The hole is not a simple shaft, it twists and even runs horizontally, in places. The hole opens up in a mountain on the interior of the moon. This arcanist was the first to discover the artificial sun and abandoned cities of the interior.
Intrigued by the discovery, a group of arcanists immediately went to investigate. Many decided to permanently relocate there, though they kept word of their discoveries secret; they didn't want other arcanists destroying potential secrets of the original inhabitants in a rush to colonize the moon. The Netherese communities there grew quietly, eventually becoming self-sufficient and slowly withdrawing from Netherese society on Toril.
When Karsus's Folly happened, they were cut off from Toril, for a time. They eventually found their way back and discovered Netheril in ruins. Rather than try to reclaim what was lost, they returned to the moon and made that their new home. They've spread out since then, mostly settling in the abandoned cities, though some have been left empty for future research purposes.
Their society, I'd say, would be similar to Halruaa's.
Now, if you want to keep this inline with what's in Realmspace... At some point, some of the folks there found themselves at odds with their fellow interior-dwellers, and fled to the surface. These folks became the illusion-loving Leirans. They've lost a lot of their history, but they remember fleeing someone, and have legends of having come from Toril, so they fear invasion from that angle.
To make it really fun, maybe after a few generations, the interior-dwellers realized something was changing them, making them slowly lose their human features in favor of other ones, perhaps even serpent-like features. The people that fled to the surface were a group of unchanged ones, not wanting to go through whatever this transformation was. They've been cut off from the interior, since then, and don't know what the interior-dwellers are like, now.
On the gem, I like the idea less of a radiant gem and more of a faerie fire gem, but I like the general concept.
I like the idea of some Netherese discovering it. I also like my own idea of later some Nimbraii settling on the surface of the planet to bring the worship of Leira (especially since Nimbral canonically has connections to spelljamming as well).
The idea of an abandoned culture on the interior works too, but instead of ONE culture... maybe its many of them. In the above, I mentioned an idea of a "skeksis"/nagpa sacrificing creatures to the "dark crystal"... so maybe therein lies the reason these cities are emptied. Nagpa specifically seek out to ruin societies because they are cursed to only be able to learn from ruined civilizations. Hmmm, maybe a culture of dark elves had been here, but dark elves that were good and worshipped Eilistraee? They were drained and turned into banshees that now occupy this interior. They might still exist, but much smaller, and maybe having "fled" into the crust/tunneled area?
Maybe the nagpa are remnants of the aearee, and this "change" you were discussing that affects some races is a result of them casting powerful spells (possibly enhanced and only able to be used by drawing on this moonfire crystal). So, less like hecate polymorphing people into pigs, but more these nagpa changing people to turn them into useful brutes.
If we did do this concept with an aearee remnant that's some kind of twisted race, we could have different types of them (kind of like rashasa that were originally introduced as one type and expanded). Having necromantic ones definitely fits, as do ones that focus on illusion/enchantment.
Maybe some kind of "moonfire gem" dragon that's linked to this crystal on the moon.
Hmmmm, and perhaps a play on that Netheril on the moon thing and Karsus' Folly. When Karsus' folly happened, the "blue fire" of this gemstone "flared". Many of those touched became "karsites" from Tome of Magic. Basically, they lost all ability to cast arcane or divine magic. Maybe this splits their society in two, and the karsites turn to being "warlocks serving the crystal" and warriors who are decidedly anti-magical
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Feb 2021 : 20:49:59
Okay, playing on the idea a bit further... None of this is canon, and it does disregard what's written in Realmspace.
Selūne is hollow. It could be hundreds of miles thick, but there's a hollow interior, a huge open space.
In the center of the moon is a gigantic gemstone, miles across. It is radiant for roughly 10 hours a day, then slowly dims over the course of 2 hours, until fully dark. Ten hours later, it starts slowly brightening again, reaching full brightness after 2 hours. The mechanism that powers and controls this is unknown; no one has ever managed to pierce the unseen barriers around the gemstone, and the closer one gets, the less magic works (much like approaching the spire in the center of the Outlands, in Planescape).
At regular intervals on the moon's interior surface stand large, unabandoned cities. The original inhabitants/builders of these cities are long gone; no one has found any depiction of the inhabitants, nor any remains of their dead. Some of the dominant architectural features of the cities include smoothly and gradually undulating floors and walls, ramps for accessing different levels, round or oblong windows and doorways, and a general lack of the straight lines favored by other races. These features lead many to believe that the original inhabitants were yuan-ti or a physically similar race, but there is little conclusive proof of this.
Oddly, even the still-uninhabited cities remain pristine; some magic keeps animals and plants from reclaiming them.
During the rise of Netheril, many arcanists wondered what was on the moon. By chance, one arcanist found a large hole near the moon's southern pole. The hole is not a simple shaft, it twists and even runs horizontally, in places. The hole opens up in a mountain on the interior of the moon. This arcanist was the first to discover the artificial sun and abandoned cities of the interior.
Intrigued by the discovery, a group of arcanists immediately went to investigate. Many decided to permanently relocate there, though they kept word of their discoveries secret; they didn't want other arcanists destroying potential secrets of the original inhabitants in a rush to colonize the moon. The Netherese communities there grew quietly, eventually becoming self-sufficient and slowly withdrawing from Netherese society on Toril.
When Karsus's Folly happened, they were cut off from Toril, for a time. They eventually found their way back and discovered Netheril in ruins. Rather than try to reclaim what was lost, they returned to the moon and made that their new home. They've spread out since then, mostly settling in the abandoned cities, though some have been left empty for future research purposes.
Their society, I'd say, would be similar to Halruaa's.
Now, if you want to keep this inline with what's in Realmspace... At some point, some of the folks there found themselves at odds with their fellow interior-dwellers, and fled to the surface. These folks became the illusion-loving Leirans. They've lost a lot of their history, but they remember fleeing someone, and have legends of having come from Toril, so they fear invasion from that angle.
To make it really fun, maybe after a few generations, the interior-dwellers realized something was changing them, making them slowly lose their human features in favor of other ones, perhaps even serpent-like features. The people that fled to the surface were a group of unchanged ones, not wanting to go through whatever this transformation was. They've been cut off from the interior, since then, and don't know what the interior-dwellers are like, now. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Feb 2021 : 20:30:00
Also, just to play with numbers a bit still....
So, moon is 2000 miles in diameter. Then I'm thinking about a concept of an interior area that's hollow. So, if we said that this interior hollow area is ... 1000 miles in diameter... that would make a 500 mile thick "crust". This "crust" would actually be thick enough that you could have underdark like tunnels in it, so that you can have the "best of both worlds".
Thus, you could have a convoluted path through this "crust" to get to the interior. You could have whole cities in there along the way to prevent people easily finding out the great secret of the hollow interior. Meanwhile, that hollow interior might have portals to somewhere else, like the shadowfell maybe? In fact, it could be this "duality" that spawned the actual "split" between Selune and Shar..... maybe the moon was once solid and a void formed in its interior. Maybe the moon is strengthened by the sun shining upon it, and when it becomes a new moon this void within it grows in power.
As another play on terms and such... if there is some kind of "faerie fire" like energy at the center of the moon that looks like blue fire.... there could be a whole new take on the term "blue moon". Maybe at times this faerie fire energy extends out beyond the outer crust and gives a nimbus around the moon. Since faerie fire is harmless, it wouldn't necessarily harm the residents there. Hell, it might empower them or something. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Feb 2021 : 20:03:34
I would buy into that a lot more readily than I would the idea of a bunch of paranoid worshippers of a deity other than Selūne living under a giant illusion, terrified about an invasion that they had absolutely no reason to expect, and that somehow, at no point in history, did anyone notice the moon changing color. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Feb 2021 : 19:44:35
Ok, I knew there was something, and if you can point me to that by any chance (not a big deal if you can't) I'd love to read exactly what's said.
BTW, what kind of got me thinking about this was that I've been in the background thinking about how to keep the spirit of realmspace, but change what exactly is there. I know some folk have heard me talking about using the "shadow elves" or Arak / ellefolk from the shadow rift lore of ravenloft (but having it be a separate group. So, a kind of big idea TO that would be the idea of there being an underdark on the moon, and that the reason that the moon people specifically WON'T ALLOW other groups to come there and mine is that they don't want others to discover their society.
Then a couple days ago, over at the Piazza, someone threw out an idea that has been in development by some folks there called the "Hollow Moon". I won't say I follow all of what they're talking about, but it occurred to me that with gravity working like it does in wildspace... what if Selune IS hollow? I mean, we don't know jack about it, and it could be fun to develop it on the side.
So, just as a thought experiment, If we had the outer planet and then there were a few tunnels that go to an a "world in reverse" that's lining the interior... what might this interior world look like? My first thought was to put a false sun in there.... but then I thought, what if its not a "sun" with radiant light... what if it's a "faerie fire" sun that's blue and purple? What if it even does something like enhance darkvision? This "sun" might be entirely crystalline as well and act something like faerzress. However, it might be "radioactive" if one gets too close. Maybe some have developed spells to protect themselves from it and go to this crystal to harvest from it or somesuch, but it continues to grow... and maybe it's not floating in the middle, but actually attaches to the interior via spikes radiating from it?
This crystal may somewhat work like faerzress and mythallars in another way. It might make something akin to quasi-magic or drowcraft items that work only on the moon. If so, they should be somewhat unique "Lunar" related magics, but not sure what. I could see there being "moonfire blades" that are blades made of faerie fire like substance.... kind of like a lightsaber and sword of flame mixed. Maybe moonfire armor or constructs made of moonfire.
And wow, as I write this I'm realizing how easy it would be to adapt the material of GAZ13 shadow elves into this. Obviously I'd want a different take, but a lot of the concepts are similar in some ways. The idea of "soul crystals" for instance.
Hmm, some further twists, maybe the interior is freezing cold, and anyone that wishes to survive has to carry a crystal because the moonfire keeps them warm. Maybe its full of darklings, glouras, bheur hags, night hags, and banshees... maybe shadar-kai. Maybe some twists from dark crystal and having nagpa / skeksis that "serve the crystal" by draining creatures into it.
Anyway, just wanted to throw out the idea and see if it sparks anything in anybody like just the two words "hollow moon" sparked in me. Sometimes the simplest things make you think about things in a new way. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Feb 2021 : 17:38:42
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing to note is that the illusion over the moon dropped after the spellplague AT SOME POINT... I forget the reference and really need to find it again.. I think Wooly pointed me to it at some point.
It was in one of the Countdown to the Spellplague web articles -- but it didn't say if it was permanent or momentary, and has, I believe, remained unmentioned since then.
To me, it's notable because it's one of the only cases I know of where material in Realmspace was referenced in Realmslore.
And I understand why, if any Realmspace info had to be brought in, it was that bit -- it was perhaps the easiest thing to include. Still, given that I've long considered the Toril and Selūne parts of Realmspace to be particularly problematic, with regards to Realmslore, I think including the line introduced more issues without really adding anything... especially since it's not been referenced since, so we don't know if the illusion was restored or not. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Feb 2021 : 17:26:45
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Half on-/off-topic:
Does Abeir have a similar moon? If so, then what is it named? (It probably wouldn't be named after Selune, Luna, etc.)
FR players guide for 4e says it sees "the same moon and sun" or something to that effect. Yeah, I wondered the same thing a few years back.
Huh? So, does someone on Selune see both Toril and Abeir at the same time. Do they get to pick which one they go to if they travel by spelljammer?
My thoughts are that its like Abeir and Toril, as in it is the separate moons but that they look exactly alike. Similar with the sun. One thing to note is that the illusion over the moon dropped after the spellplague AT SOME POINT... I forget the reference and really need to find it again.. I think Wooly pointed me to it at some point.
My thoughts based on all this is that all of realmspace was twinned and not just one planet, though whether they were "twinned" exactly the same ... for instance, Coliar may still be intacts (assuming that it was destroyed at some point and that's why its a bunch of earth and water islands). I also assume that the failing of the illusion has to do with possibly a portion of Selune going to Abeir as well during the spellplague.
In fact, its never really been touched upon, but we could easily find that ALL the worlds of realmspace experiments some kind of similar transposition (maybe some on a much smaller scale, maybe some on a much larger scale). This could be a very fun way to "redo" realmspace. For instance, perhaps the small "Garden" planet made of a few little moons suddenly found itself with a full sized planet and the tree just TOOK OFF growing. Perhaps we find out that the batrachi survived the tearfall and went to Karpri on the abeir side. I say all this because while I find realmspace intriguing... it was a take by a handful of authors years ago, and there's so many things that can be improved upon. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 13 Feb 2021 : 16:15:39
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Half on-/off-topic:
Does Abeir have a similar moon? If so, then what is it named? (It probably wouldn't be named after Selune, Luna, etc.)
FR players guide for 4e says it sees "the same moon and sun" or something to that effect. Yeah, I wondered the same thing a few years back.
Huh? So, does someone on Selune see both Toril and Abeir at the same time. Do they get to pick which one they go to if they travel by spelljammer? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Feb 2021 : 02:52:15
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Half on-/off-topic:
Does Abeir have a similar moon? If so, then what is it named? (It probably wouldn't be named after Selune, Luna, etc.)
FR players guide for 4e says it sees "the same moon and sun" or something to that effect. Yeah, I wondered the same thing a few years back. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 13 Feb 2021 : 02:42:53
Half on-/off-topic:
Does Abeir have a similar moon? If so, then what is it named? (It probably wouldn't be named after Selune, Luna, etc.)
Indeed, does the central star in Realmspace have a name? Do the people of Faerun call it Amaunator/Lathander as we call our star Sol (Solarion, Solarius, Invictus Sol)? Do the people of Abeir call it something else? Do the elves call it Corellius? Do the dwarves call it Big Yellow Forge? Do the orcs simply curse this unnamed source of pain? Or do they all just unimaginatively call it "the sun"?
Seems odd to use generic names like "the moon" and "the sun" when these things have divine representation, when these things are important elements in all sorts of magic. |
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