| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 17:19:49
All of our discussions on Netheril lately have me wondering once again about the extent and limits of Mystra’s ban.
In order to not rehash much of what has been discussed again, let me provide this link to a great discussion regarding [url=“https://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=23091”] 10th-12th level spells.[/url].
I’m focused more on magic items though. Many items throughout D&D history as you know have simply been a receptacle that could imitate known spells. I don’t know much about the magic item creation process in 5e, but I assume casting of these spells might be included in some of the creation process.
Well, when I read up on Mystra’s Ban, I see wording that indicates that certain things can’t be done “forevermore.” But what about items that contained 10th-12th level spells prior to the ban? The tarrasque and meteor summoning scrolls from Rime seem to indicate that power of this level isn’t unheard of.
Might there be a “Proctiv’s Move Mountain” or “Tolodine’s Killing Wind” scroll out there in some hidden ruin? Can it be used?
|
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Feb 2021 : 17:57:10
The one thing I wonder when I look at the 10th-12th lvl spells is this
Mavin's Create Volcano
This spell was never cast in Netheril‚ but every arcanist that looked at its formula was convinced that it would do as promised: create a volcano.
So, if this is the case... WAS it ever cast anywhere or was it just hypothetical?
To take an example of this, using something that you've developed Seethyr and putting a spin on it: Could we use this to add some extra fire to someplace like "Lopango: Land of Fire" and have a section with just tons of volcanos on top of each other and then dump in some ancient Netherese enclave that crashed in the area near these volcanoes. Maybe Mavin himself came here. Maybe he even found lore on a similar casting by batrachi long ago and a lot of his lore on fire magic came from here.
Similar could happen in like Katashaka as well and fit quite well.
As a further side thought on this, and not one I'm sure I'd like, but all avenues can be explored. Might we find that there is a deity (Intiri) down in Lopango who is possibly "bound to the mortal plane" because some Netherese mage performed a spell like Karsus' Avatar, but did so in a proper way and stole the god's power.... but with its power doesn't come its outer planar domain. He was thus transformed into a god, and didn't want to deal with the repercussions of having to lead his people (or have them figure out he's a mortal with stolen god powers), and so he sends them away from the holy city they were building in his honor to build another city nearby. But he keeps the priests on hand to be his servants. Note, this concept wouldn't have it that Intiri didn't exist long ago, just that the entity calling itself Intiri NOW isn't that same entity. It could have happened 2000 years ago (more than 3000 years after the Natican civiliztion came to the surface). Just a thought process to throw out there.
Same concept could be performed with Qotal to make "Ubtao", in the concept for someone dragging down the power of a god into mortal flesh, and perhaps he left them. Something similar could be done with the great spirits of Anchorome, and the idea of someone "becoming" like turquoise man via this method. Maybe an aranea that becomes " |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Feb 2021 : 16:09:07
I personally think they stuck those two scrolls in rime of the frostmaiden as a means for the party to come back and finish off Auril without having to use their own normal powers. That being said, what does it mean exactly?
I submit that the world has changed and that a lot of the things that might have been truisms prior to the second sundering aren't TRUE anymore. This would be a homebrew take of course, but my personal take is that its not "Mystra I" that's back or "Mystra II" but rather that its somehow an amalgamation of Mystryl, Mystra I, and Mystra II as well as numerous powerful souls of mages like the Simbul. Magic obviously works differently now, but then people were bypassing Mystra's ban technically with epic magic in 3e. Maybe Mystra's ban is gone, but at the same time noone knows HOW to use the weave to create 10th - 12th level spells. At the same time, magic is different now, so IF a high level Netherese archmage were to come back, maybe he still couldn't cast a 10th lvl spell because things are different and he'd have to discover how things work NOW.
This all being said, your question wasn't about spellcasting directly, but on items where high level magics were placed into it. Honestly, if someone were to introduce such for plot/story reasons.... I wouldn't say that its that much beyond the stretch of some of the BS that's already been being brought up. We already had someone stopping all raise dead type affects in the world. I wouldn't be surprised to find that there's some magic item that can duplicate the 10th - 12th lvl magics that we know about, but I'd be probably be upset if they could use an item repeatedly. I'd also recommend that some flaw be introduced into it. Perhaps the best way to do it would be to introduce a flaw that's also related to the level of the person making the attempt (i.e. a "scroll of tarrasque summoning" in the hands of a 1st lvl mage might have a 99% chance of failing, but in the hands of a 20th lvl mage that chance might only be 10%). The results of "failure" should be very nasty in ways that reflect the item as well... so for instance the tarrasque's head may pop through a portal and swallow its summoner.
I honestly wish they'd just go ahead and introduce level 20+ character rules for 5e. The power levels that we're talking about are amazing compared to what 5e spellcasters can do right now (sure, they can cast cantrips all day, but they can only do a handful of high level spells). Not that we need anything near the power levels of 2e, but the wings are so clipped right now they just feel handicapped. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 08 Feb 2021 : 14:41:45
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
But what about items that contained 10th-12th level spells prior to the ban? The tarrasque and meteor summoning scrolls from Rime seem to indicate that power of this level isn’t unheard of.
Might there be a “Proctiv’s Move Mountain” or “Tolodine’s Killing Wind” scroll out there in some hidden ruin? Can it be used?
Scrolls are little different from casting a spell.
More complex items — maybe. There was a throne in one of Ed's novels?
But in the expansions/splats there were no canon items with one of those (known) spells at all, AFAIK.
Either way, if Mystra or Mystra II had serious objections to some old magic trinkets, there are none left outside very old dead-magic zones, of course. That was just one more mission type for their mortal agents.
Still, it may be possible to imitate specific functions of a 10-level spells with "lesser" spells. Or higher ones with "special dispensation" 10-lvl spells, of course (see wizardly mythals).
My guess, for one, is that Thayan Grand Helm could be an attempt to imitate now-unavailable Valdick's Spheresail, by using Thayan circle magic methods as workaround for raw power limit. So they have mostly-successfully implemented one of its two functions. Obviously, those Red Wizards didn't pull anything they really shouldn't have, since neither it simply failed, nor did Mystra&Azuth close their shop permanently by making Simbul pay a brief, but noisy visit. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 02 Feb 2021 : 14:22:17
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I think you should all have a good read of p.91-92 of "Secrets of the Magister".
-- George Krashos
I just took that book down from the attic last week! Perfect timing!
The clip on page 92 about the city that a magister tried to send into a chasm using a 10th level spell which both Mystra and Azuth restored REALLY had me curious. Is there any other information about that anywhere? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 02 Feb 2021 : 07:27:40
I think you should all have a good read of p.91-92 of "Secrets of the Magister".
-- George Krashos |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 21:50:06
I've actually been curious that with the Weave being reborn or renewed, if the 2e spell level limits (not sure how this would translate in later editions) might come off the caps again. AKA 10 magic missiles as opposed to 5 at max. If the Weave was rebooted, it's possible the corruption was wiped from it and/or strengthened. Given that it literally rained dragon eggs a decade or so before the Spellplague and Mystra's return around the Sundering, I could see magic being or growing stronger. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 18:54:17
Realmslore has stuff like the Cyrinishad - a written magic powerful enough to affect the minds of gods.
And of course there are also the Nether Scrolls.
So it seems certain that pre-Mystra scrolls can still exist. Whether any actually do exist is a different question. Mystra, her Chosens, her Magisters, and her clergy would likely try to procure these things for their own uses, or at least likely to try destroying these things to deny others from using them. As would certain "free agency" entities like Larloch and the Simbul. Along with countless liches and archmages and magelings who lust for powerful magics.
2E had rules for wizards and priests casting scrolls. Chances to fail or miscast if the spells were higher levels than the spellcaster could normally cast. "Miscasts" typically meant unexciting fizzles but could be minor malfunctions, major malfunctions, reversed effects, wild surges, spectacular or even fatal consequences. Even a cantrip-slinging apprentice could read mighty magical writings, albeit this likely wouldn't end well. The rules could also apply to thieves and bards, though they basically had no real chance of (successfully or unsuccessfully) casting anything written to far above their levels.
Late-2E products described rules for casting 10th level magics. Short version is that the such magics will only work if approved by Mystra, somewhat like a priest spell, if she doesn't want you to move mountains or travel through time (because you're not one of her loyal supporters, you haven't petitioned her convincingly enough, and you don't even have a particularly good reason for wanting to cast the spell) then your spell will automatically fail. But even with Mystra's permission you still have only a roughly 50/50 chance of casting the spell properly.
It seems like casting spells off scrolls is basically the same thing as casting them from memory. The ink and symbols and words basically contain all the "potential" magic energy you'd normally construct and channel through your Vancian mind slot. The only real difference is that the guy who wrote the scroll might be able to memorize and transcribe more complex magic than you can understand. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 17:45:27
Well below is just my own theory but here goes.
In short, yes.
In long. Magic items use the weave just like quasi magic items used a mythallar (the two are akin but mythallars are focused and localised whereas the weave is huge and not controlled by any one person / thing.
If you move a quasi magical item between mythallars it still works. If you move a magic item between weaves it also still works (not that we have more than one weave in modern times but there is a point).
The first collapse of the weave with mystryls death ended when someone disconnected the nether scrolls from the weave (making then a backup separate from the weave) and a new weave was made almost identical to the old one but without the nether scrolls.
Now a weave is a way of storing spells in easy to access and standardised ways. Those 10th and 11th level spells were always the same, same components, same effects, etc. Anyone that knew the components could cast that spell. These spells are stored in weave anchors.
The nether scrolls were weave anchors and netheril created and stored a host of new spells in them. Those nether scrolls are not part of the weave and so cannot be accessed.
But we do know that 10th level spells can be cast, it's just that they automatically fail the first time a person casts them (a good way to put people off and make then think it's impossible, and those spells are selfishly expensive to cast). The new weave has different rules but all the magic works the same ish. So if you wanted to you could create a new tolodines killing wind and add it to the weave (if you had access to a weave anchor to add it to the weave) but it would fail at the first casting.
So magic items with those spells inside them would work in similar ways with the new weave as they did the old. Scrolls are spell completion so the first casting would fail (not so useful unless scribed). Wands would be better and staffs and other magic items.
We know that rituals and high magic work as normal and those can be used to replicate the spells of 10th level and higher so there is nothing to stop those spells from working, it's just that weave versions always fail the first time.
That's just my theory though. |
|
|
