| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 12 Oct 2020 : 18:07:22
These eel like creatures were first described, I believe in the 2e books about the sahuagin from 2e (Evil Tide, Night of the Shark, Sea of Blood, the Sea Devils), then brought back in to 3e with Stormwrack.
I just read Sea of Blood for some light reading and found out some weird lore.
First off, the eelfolk had a god that they tried to birth into a mortal body named Aguillesius (or something like that) and here is the kicker...
When elves foiled this plot (prior to the Crown Wars), thats when the anguillians went to Sekolah and most became the sahuagin we know and love today.
I love the deep trenches of our own world and the mystery that surrounds them so this whole concept is fascinating to me. The anguillians were original inhabitants of this region and I wonder if they are still there on Toril. Any thoughts? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Oct 2020 : 14:08:20
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Is there a picture of this critter in Stormwrack or somewhere? I'm having trouble picturing it.
Yes, there is artwork in Stormwrack and The Sea Devils before that. They claim in looks like a sahuagin in many ways but is more eel-like. To me the toothy mouth gave them more of a leech-with-legs look but that wasn’t intended.
Just to note, I like the 2e sea devils imagery better, though that was all in black and white I think. Look at that first Dalor. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Oct 2020 : 14:03:51
Hey going back to my regular email. I know you said you were having someone else do a drawing for you, but your idea for the city sounded like something that would be fun and relatively easy to make a real quick 3d model of and do a quick and dirty paint job of in blender and then do some artist effects in paint.net. I know its not the greatest thing in the world, but you may find it useful. If not, no biggie. I had fun doing it. If you respond, just let me know here, as I probably won't think to check that account again for a while. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 28 Oct 2020 : 05:55:11
Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
Where (as in page and book) do you see the name Leemoogoogoon other than "Out of the Abyss" a 5e module about the underdark?
Sorry for the confusion here. No, I saw the reference to "Deep Father" from your post on 13 Oct 20. When I read Sea of Blood and didn't see it, I used my Google-Fu doctorate and found it listed that way, with citations pointing towards Out of the Abyss.
Best regards,
|
| Seethyr |
Posted - 28 Oct 2020 : 02:30:05
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Is there a picture of this critter in Stormwrack or somewhere? I'm having trouble picturing it.
Yes, there is artwork in Stormwrack and The Sea Devils before that. They claim in looks like a sahuagin in many ways but is more eel-like. To me the toothy mouth gave them more of a leech-with-legs look but that wasn’t intended. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 28 Oct 2020 : 02:17:57
Is there a picture of this critter in Stormwrack or somewhere? I'm having trouble picturing it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Oct 2020 : 00:00:37
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
@Sleyvas. Sent an email with sine raw notes. Will post an outline of a new project here after we discuss it a bit.
Thanks for the heads up. Logging into that email account for the first time in a while 
|
| Seethyr |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 19:26:39
@Sleyvas. Sent an email with some raw notes. Will post an outline of a new project here after we discuss it a bit. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 11:47:55
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
Just a thought regarding Anguileusis and the ritual performed by the Anguillians along with "the Deep Mother" and "the Deep Father"... its said they created a "child god" from one of their perfect offspring... we know this from Sea of Blood. Given other lore, we might even tie anguillians to the batrachi as they're a fallen civilization. Secondarily, perhaps the "death" of Anguileusis created a powerful version of "Atropal".
So, to begin with: under-the-seas area is my least knowledgeable arena for the Realms. I know very, very little about it. That being said, I just read Sea of Blood, the entry in Drizzt DoUrden's Guide to the Underdark, and your self-created deity entry [badass entry by the way!], and I have some questions if you don't mind?
I get the "Deep Mother", as I just read about it. However, looking into the "Deep Father", if I am reading the right stuff here, the Deep Father is none other than Demogorgon, a.k.a. Leemooggoogoon. Am I on the right track here, or did I get off at the wrong stop? haha
Best regards,
Well, I'm skimming the history, but
The Adherents' spell blasted aside the still weak magical defenses of the evil child-god, turning Anguileusis's new flesh to
inanimate mineral. The Deep Father was likewise affected, holding the child-god in his arms; thus was born the Stone Which Abides.
So, the Deep Father was turned into stone along with the "child god" and became the "Stone Which Abides".
Where (as in page and book) do you see the name Leemoogoogoon other than "Out of the Abyss" a 5e module about the underdark? Is that name actually in Sea of Blood or Sea Devils or something? If its that he's taken on the epithet "the Deep Father" I wouldn't put much stock to it being related to the Anguillians. After all, other demons, like Demogorgon, claim to be "The Prince of the Undead" and there are other demon lords who claim to be "the Ghoul King" or somesuch. The name Leemoogoogoon, I believe, was some 5e authors creation to use with whichever underdark culture was worshipping his arrival (was it the kuo-toas?) and was just a play on words. I doubt they had any intentions to tie it to a an unnamed entity in some 2e module from 20+ years prior. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 04:51:57
Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
Just a thought regarding Anguileusis and the ritual performed by the Anguillians along with "the Deep Mother" and "the Deep Father"... its said they created a "child god" from one of their perfect offspring... we know this from Sea of Blood. Given other lore, we might even tie anguillians to the batrachi as they're a fallen civilization. Secondarily, perhaps the "death" of Anguileusis created a powerful version of "Atropal".
So, to begin with: under-the-seas area is my least knowledgeable arena for the Realms. I know very, very little about it. That being said, I just read Sea of Blood, the entry in Drizzt DoUrden's Guide to the Underdark, and your self-created deity entry [badass entry by the way!], and I have some questions if you don't mind?
I get the "Deep Mother", as I just read about it. However, looking into the "Deep Father", if I am reading the right stuff here, the Deep Father is none other than Demogorgon, a.k.a. Leemooggoogoon. Am I on the right track here, or did I get off at the wrong stop? haha
Best regards,
|
| Seethyr |
Posted - 20 Oct 2020 : 03:35:50
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Ka'Narlist is probably my favorite Forgotten Realms character. A true G.
LOL, except he makes Szass Tam look like a jolly fellow. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Oct 2020 : 01:44:55
-Ka'Narlist is probably my favorite Forgotten Realms character. A true G. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 19 Oct 2020 : 22:29:52
I just reread the short story. It’s telling was pretty unambiguous. It was Ka just wanting to become a god by making a servitor race of the sea, in part to wipe out sea elves.
And yes, as a legend told by a captured wemic they could have just not gotten all the details right. I could see Ka’Narlist really just having bred Malenti to get control over the sahuagin who had already come into being via their evolution from the anguillians. It’s not a massive change to the story and one that keeps the important parts of the legend true.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Oct 2020 : 15:31:36
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Hrmmm. I had no idea about the Ka’Narlist reference even though I now remember reading that long ago. I wonder if from a lore standpoint the two differing origin stories can be found compatible with additional lore.
Perhaps Ka’Narlist’s story is more about the origins of the Malenti or perhaps his experiments involved the anguillians.
-Elaine Cunningham specifically goes out of her way to highlight that the entire story is a myth, and that it is up to you to believe it or not (all of the historical parts of Evermeet: Island of Elves were written in that way, really, though basically all of it has been accepted as absolute). It was being told to the "listener", apparently an Elf, who for whatever reason took a Wemic captive. It ends,
"And so, my elven captor, you have the story, as it was passed to me by my grandsire, who had it from his. Why would the lion-folk tell such a tale, you ask? Perhaps because the elves will not. Yes, there is danger in speaking of such magic. It is true that for every wise wemic who hears the warning in this tale, there will be a fool who sees in it the glittering lure of a dragon's hoard. So regard it as myth, if such pleases you. And indeed, it may well be this story was not built upon the solid stone of fact. But remember this, elf, and write it upon your scroll: oftentimes there is far more truth to be found in legend than in history."
That gives a lot of leeway which is excellent. I wish more authors would do the same, particularly when they freewheel with Realmsian lore.
I think a myth such as that could really have lost some of its truth over the millennia, with the truth having it as more of an origin story to the malenti. Perhaps Ka'Narlist ACTUALLY didn't create the sahuagin, but his experiments with one (named Malenti and all) is what led to the unfortunate occassional birth of such creatures among the sahuagin. I will have to read the Monstrous Arcana books again to see what they say about the Malenti origins and see if that would be compatible.
I would have to look at the release dates, but I THINK the Sea Devils came AFTER the short story.... and I THINK they are compatible as you say, because I THINK they were trying to make both true back then. I honestly want to go back and reread the short story, but I know I won't because of time constraints (i.e. it would take me an hour just to hunt down the novel).
That being said... I am tempted to reread Evermeet: Island of Elves. God its been so long that I barely even recall the plot of that book, but I remember enjoying the read.
Oh, and on the discussion of "making things less concrete" in earlier editions.... yeah, I too like things sometimes that are definitive, but especially with old myths that are just there for story, giving room to wobble it here or there can be fun. At the same time, it also leads to issues where things just can't be true without there being some insane occurrence. I sometimes wonder if it might be interesting if there were actually multiple timelines that somehow got collapsed together without overwriting one another, such that you have myths in one book from one timeline existing alongside myths in another book from a different timeline but being in the same world. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 18 Oct 2020 : 16:41:27
-I'm surprised 4e didn't go in that direction actually, now that I think about it (don't know enough about 5e to comment). It would have detailed the new in a satisfactory way while at the same time fulfilling the whole "it's unknown and up to you" kind of mandate they had going. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Oct 2020 : 04:15:45
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Agreed. I started playing D&D/following the Realms in like 2002 or 2003 or something like that, firmly in the 3e era that presented everything as absolute fact, and I used to prefer it that way. In the years since, the "flawed" perspective of most 2e products has grown on me, simply because of the storytelling possibilities they give. On one hand, it's nice knowing definitively that the Starym murdered Aravae Irithyl but on the other, it was fun not knowing and wondering who dun it.
I like a mix, myself. I'm of the opinion that you have to have absolute facts, because that's the groundwork everything is built on. But not everything has to be an absolute fact. It's a fact that Frehd was the Duke of Waerever until he fell from a balcony while drunk, but it's believed that his wife was involved in his death.
You can build in a lot of wiggle room without having to say that everything comes from an unreliable narrator.
For that matter, the unreliable narrator gig would work a lot more if he was contradicted in other material and addressed that. "Yes, I know I said this other thing previously; everything pointed in that direction..." |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 18 Oct 2020 : 03:10:21
-Agreed. I started playing D&D/following the Realms in like 2002 or 2003 or something like that, firmly in the 3e era that presented everything as absolute fact, and I used to prefer it that way. In the years since, the "flawed" perspective of most 2e products has grown on me, simply because of the storytelling possibilities they give. On one hand, it's nice knowing definitively that the Starym murdered Aravae Irithyl but on the other, it was fun not knowing and wondering who dun it. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 18 Oct 2020 : 00:40:42
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Hrmmm. I had no idea about the Ka’Narlist reference even though I now remember reading that long ago. I wonder if from a lore standpoint the two differing origin stories can be found compatible with additional lore.
Perhaps Ka’Narlist’s story is more about the origins of the Malenti or perhaps his experiments involved the anguillians.
-Elaine Cunningham specifically goes out of her way to highlight that the entire story is a myth, and that it is up to you to believe it or not (all of the historical parts of Evermeet: Island of Elves were written in that way, really, though basically all of it has been accepted as absolute). It was being told to the "listener", apparently an Elf, who for whatever reason took a Wemic captive. It ends,
"And so, my elven captor, you have the story, as it was passed to me by my grandsire, who had it from his. Why would the lion-folk tell such a tale, you ask? Perhaps because the elves will not. Yes, there is danger in speaking of such magic. It is true that for every wise wemic who hears the warning in this tale, there will be a fool who sees in it the glittering lure of a dragon's hoard. So regard it as myth, if such pleases you. And indeed, it may well be this story was not built upon the solid stone of fact. But remember this, elf, and write it upon your scroll: oftentimes there is far more truth to be found in legend than in history."
That gives a lot of leeway which is excellent. I wish more authors would do the same, particularly when they freewheel with Realmsian lore.
I think a myth such as that could really have lost some of its truth over the millennia, with the truth having it as more of an origin story to the malenti. Perhaps Ka'Narlist ACTUALLY didn't create the sahuagin, but his experiments with one (named Malenti and all) is what led to the unfortunate occassional birth of such creatures among the sahuagin. I will have to read the Monstrous Arcana books again to see what they say about the Malenti origins and see if that would be compatible. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 17 Oct 2020 : 16:34:13
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Hrmmm. I had no idea about the Ka’Narlist reference even though I now remember reading that long ago. I wonder if from a lore standpoint the two differing origin stories can be found compatible with additional lore.
Perhaps Ka’Narlist’s story is more about the origins of the Malenti or perhaps his experiments involved the anguillians.
-Elaine Cunningham specifically goes out of her way to highlight that the entire story is a myth, and that it is up to you to believe it or not (all of the historical parts of Evermeet: Island of Elves were written in that way, really, though basically all of it has been accepted as absolute). It was being told to the "listener", apparently an Elf, who for whatever reason took a Wemic captive. It ends,
"And so, my elven captor, you have the story, as it was passed to me by my grandsire, who had it from his. Why would the lion-folk tell such a tale, you ask? Perhaps because the elves will not. Yes, there is danger in speaking of such magic. It is true that for every wise wemic who hears the warning in this tale, there will be a fool who sees in it the glittering lure of a dragon's hoard. So regard it as myth, if such pleases you. And indeed, it may well be this story was not built upon the solid stone of fact. But remember this, elf, and write it upon your scroll: oftentimes there is far more truth to be found in legend than in history." |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 17 Oct 2020 : 15:28:45
There doesnt need to be only one origin of a race.
Humans today resulted from the evolution and mixing of many different subspecies.
There is evidence that very similar creatures have evolved independently in separate time periods (i read about a creature on one of the mediterranean islands that was wiped out by a natural disaster and then an almost identical creature evolved independently over the next several thousand years).
With magic involved why not have multiple origins for a race, i would be willing to be magic users of great power have created similar servitor races (by altering existing races). Those that escape their servitude or are set free, if they survive and meet other similar creatures eventually breed to create a true breeding race we know today.
So sahuagin might have been created by Ka'Narlist, and by some netherese archmages, and by other magical accidents. There might even have been some naturally evolving creatures. They all mix together over the millennia and today we have sahuagin. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 17 Oct 2020 : 15:07:39
Hrmmm. I had no idea about the Ka’Narlist reference even though I now remember reading that long ago. I wonder if from a lore standpoint the two differing origin stories can be found compatible with additional lore.
Perhaps Ka’Narlist’s story is more about the origins of the Malenti or perhaps his experiments involved the anguillians. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 16 Oct 2020 : 22:17:39
-Ka'Narlist's first attempt ended in failure. Whatever he did to the female Aquatic Elf slave that he was experimenting on, the first baby that she gave birth to was a regular ol Sea Elf. He commanded his Wemic slave, Mbugua, to get rid of it, but Mbugua let it live, giving it to an free Aquatic Elf who came to a secret cove near Ka'Narlist Keep. According to Mbugua, the baby was a regular Aquatic Elf physically, but had Ka'Narlist's evil nature bred into him. The plan was to raise the baby, named Malenti, to hate Ka'Narlist, so that he would eventually challenge (and kill) him, avenging all of the Aquatic Elves that he enslaved/killed and reclaiming their magic that he stole. When the time came years later, Malenti betrayed Mbugua, revealing himself and his past to Ka'Narlist. In exchange for his services and the Aquatic Elf magic that he had poached from others, Malenti asked to lead the Sahuagin army that Ka'Narlist had successfully developed after his first "failure" with Malenti.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Oct 2020 : 19:01:36
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To note: canonically, I believe there's a short story of illythiiri (sp?) changing sea elves into sahuagin in one of the realms of anthologies.
-Correct, "Secrets of Blood, Spirits of the Sea" in Realms of the Arcane.
-Ka'Narlist was into..."magical experimentation". He wanted to conquer the seas and created the Sahuagin/Malenti (Sahuagin that look like Aquatic Elves) by mutating Aquatic Elf slaves. The story was told in such a way to be unreliable, so it's up to you if you want to believe that is how they came to be in the Realms.
So, since my memory isn't what it was, he took pre-existing aquatic elves and changed them to look like aquatic elves but to be truly sahuagin? I know I brought it up, but I'm just fuzzy on the particulars after all this time. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 16 Oct 2020 : 16:56:15
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To note: canonically, I believe there's a short story of illythiiri (sp?) changing sea elves into sahuagin in one of the realms of anthologies.
-Correct, "Secrets of Blood, Spirits of the Sea" in Realms of the Arcane.
-Ka'Narlist was into..."magical experimentation". He wanted to conquer the seas and created the Sahuagin/Malenti (Sahuagin that look like Aquatic Elves) by mutating Aquatic Elf slaves. The story was told in such a way to be unreliable, so it's up to you if you want to believe that is how they came to be in the Realms. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Oct 2020 : 11:28:52
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Whoa! I just found out about Sekolah the Great Shark earlier today, and now there's a thread all about sea-devils. Awesome! I'll have to read all of this thread later..
Going down the rabbit hole.... here come the kopru...
Don't you talk about Rabbit Holes, I just learned the secret of the Beholders and the Astral Dreadnaughts! Here I was spending the whole year researching Ghuanadaur not knowing where it all connected back to..
Want to know another secret of the beholders? They had "hive mothers" that birthed them as a species... so apparently they're born multiple ways |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 16 Oct 2020 : 07:17:05
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Whoa! I just found out about Sekolah the Great Shark earlier today, and now there's a thread all about sea-devils. Awesome! I'll have to read all of this thread later..
Going down the rabbit hole.... here come the kopru...
Don't you talk about Rabbit Holes, I just learned the secret of the Beholders and the Astral Dreadnaughts! Here I was spending the whole year researching Ghuanadaur not knowing where it all connected back to.. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 15 Oct 2020 : 15:05:44
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Whoa! I just found out about Sekolah the Great Shark earlier today, and now there's a thread all about sea-devils. Awesome! I'll have to read all of this thread later..
Going down the rabbit hole.... here come the kopru... |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 15 Oct 2020 : 09:39:32
Whoa! I just found out about Sekolah the Great Shark earlier today, and now there's a thread all about sea-devils. Awesome! I'll have to read all of this thread later.. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Oct 2020 : 23:05:16
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Is it possible that “Deep Father” could’ve been an incarnation of Dagon? To give birth to a god in a flesh form, I’d think the ‘rents would need to be uniquely powerful and Dagon seems to fit the bill.
Iakhovas would make a great vestige - if only the Binder class would become canon again! When he was alive, I thought I recalled that he was just a megalodon that had learned magic (perhaps after being awakened) and would regularly polymorph into humanoid forms. But that’s a discussion from another thread...
Anyway, one of the things that was happening in Sea of Blood was that the sahuagin who followed Deep Mother were starting to mutate more eel features. Ghosts of Saltmarsh should’ve taken this further with all they did with the shark-folk. They even had “Sahuagjn Deep Divers” who had lighted lures atop their head, but there was no connection to anguillians mentioned.
From the stuff "Deep Father" was turned into mineral along with the would be godling, so while not imppossible, it does make it harder to use him as Dagon. I personally wouldn't do that and would instead say that the aforementioned "Sahuagin Titan Daganisoraan" is another name for Dagon.... unless someone can find ANYTHING to tell me what a sahuagin titan is (maybe IT is a sharkwere)?? Maybe it was a designed creature in 2e? Maybe that's even the long name for Dagon in the cthulhu myths for all I know (not a big cthulhu fan, but it kind of sounds similar).
BTW, from the description given, Deep Mother should have continued to grow with time as well, but she didn't because she was devoting her energy to the "godling". So, both her and Daganisoraan are like sharks in that they never stop growing. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 13 Oct 2020 : 21:23:30
Is it possible that “Deep Father” could’ve been an incarnation of Dagon? To give birth to a god in a flesh form, I’d think the ‘rents would need to be uniquely powerful and Dagon seems to fit the bill.
Iakhovas would make a great vestige - if only the Binder class would become canon again! When he was alive, I thought I recalled that he was just a megalodon that had learned magic (perhaps after being awakened) and would regularly polymorph into humanoid forms. But that’s a discussion from another thread...
Anyway, one of the things that was happening in Sea of Blood was that the sahuagin who followed Deep Mother were starting to mutate more eel features. Ghosts of Saltmarsh should’ve taken this further with all they did with the shark-folk. They even had “Sahuagjn Deep Divers” who had lighted lures atop their head, but there was no connection to anguillians mentioned. |
| Compaste |
Posted - 13 Oct 2020 : 01:30:49
That is a fantastic Idea! |
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