| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Sep 2020 : 15:20:24
I know that we were given versions of the seven sisters with the epic ruleset, but that was before a lot of later ideas came out with 3.5e. Myself I find that particular edition to be the most adaptable for odd ideas (pathfinder as well). IF you were to redo any of the seven sisters (or to throw the topic out... any other FR NPC I guess), how would you lay them out (with either full stats or even just "this and that classes").
I'll throw out some ideas, and maybe people can improve upon them.
Sylune, the witch of shadowdale. I picture Sylune as a definite wizard. While some might instantly link witch to the Rashemi, I wouldn't necessarily go there. We do have warlocks that have gods as their patrons, so the idea of a wizard/warlock/eldritch theurge/incantatrix could fit her rather well. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 17 Sep 2020 : 00:46:02
Senior Scribe Demzer,
There is no by the books, unless you want it to be...
...just ask Leira. ;)
Whatever that means... ;) ;)
Best regards,
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 15:13:30
So, so far I feel like we've had some good insights that have changed the builds on several of these guys. So far, we've talked at length about Dove, Alustriel, Storm and the Simbul. That leaves Sylune and Laeral and Quilue. I personally don't feel like I "know" Quilue enough to do her justice as much as other people would, so I default to the earlier described version. Sylune I'd like to think about a bit. That brings us to Laeral, who honestly feels the most "simple wizard who focuses on people, politics, and rumormongering" to me than any of the others. She's not like the Simbul who is ALL ABOUT personal power. She's also not like Alustriel who is so sweeteningly giving and loving.
So, with that in mind, what could we do with Laeral? I don't see her statted out in the Epic Level Handbook. I see this in the FRCS though Laeral Silverhand (CG female human Wiz19/Sor4/Rgr7. This puts her character level in 3e at 30th. From the 2e Seven Sisters, we have this: Laeral is a chaotic good human female 25th-level mage who is very close to becoming 26th level. From earlier days and deeds, she can also claim to be a 9th-level ranger. She has STR 13, DEX 17, CON 16, INT 18, WIS 18, CHA 17, and 86 hp, and her usual AC is -1.
So, based on THIS information, we know that Laeral does have some skill as a warrior. She's less of an "I'm a warrior" than Dove though. In fact, we never really see her acting like a warrior (no wielding a sword or armor or such that I know of). They're also wanting to put in some levels as a spontaneous caster too though. Also, since Laeral is into subterfuge so much perhaps instead of sorcerer, we look at a different kind of spontaneous caster. The beguiler. In taking this class, whenever they get new spells, they also get all spells in the class list, as opposed to sorcerer, who gets a broader range but less spells. Also, perhaps we look at a couple different prestige classes that focus on building a more "skill" driven character for social skills like bluff, sense motive, etc... Perhaps also, instead of being so much of a "ranger", she's more "roguish" to get the social skills that seem to fit her persona? But, building her in beguiler, rogue, and wizard sounds like a poor build. So, perhaps just rogue and wizard, or even a mixture of some ranger and rogue then wizard for spellcasting?
Also, I see that Demzer chose her to go harper mage, which is interesting for its giving the equivalent of bardic knowledge, plus later several skill focus knowledge feats, skill focus spellcraft, and eschew materials feat abilities. It requires 3 feats to get in (Alertness, Education, and Extend Spell), but the class abilities could make later going into Loremaster less of a pain.
One thing also to bear in mind, that once you hit level twenty, the +1 spellcaster level bonuses become fairly meaningless unless you are building a second spellcasting skill. So, worrying about whether you get a +1 on spellcasting at each level at that point kind of doesn't make as much sense.
So, perhaps with 30 levels to play with, the "build" for her might be something like rogue 3/ranger2/wizard 3/unseen seer 2/arcane trickster 10/ Loremaster 3/Archmage 3 then there's 5 more levels to mess with... maybe Epic Infiltrator for some? At this point her caster level will have reached 21st level, so the +1 spellcaster level is fairly useless. I'm not real happy with this idea, but I can't see where focusing on classes that increase wizard caster level at this point gives a great return on investment. You could continue unseen seer, which DOES have a penalty to caster level for non-divination spells, but since you're still building caster level in general, its not as big an issue (especially if you're already epic level). Could also keep building loremaster as well. The bonuses it give are some extra skill points and sneak attack increase. Still not extremely happy with the build.... anyone see some better improvements that still fit her personality?
|
| LordofBones |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 12:05:39
Other than buff spells and spell durations, there are spells that scale off caster level post-20, like maw of chaos, not to mention epic spellcasting. The Simbul's problem is that Szass will trivially win caster level checks against her, his buffs will last longer, and his epic spells will be better. It also means that she's a worse spellcaster than most of the Zulkirs.
Though it would make things interesting if the Chosen simply didn't have the raw power of other high level mages; now the Simbul has a vested interest in keep Thay divided and Tam's attentions on his city, because she's well aware that the instant the Zulkirs get their shit together, Aglarond is in deep doodoo.
Also, arcane lord. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 11:43:20
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The problem now is that if you throw her up against Szass, he's going to brutally murder her.
I will still suggest dropping nightmare spinner as the class thematically doesn't fit her, and if you need extra spell slots, you could just make it a baseline ability granted to her as a daughter of the goddess of magic.
Alternatively, mix pathfinder in and turn her into an arcane bloodline sorcerer with the human favored class benefits, which grants her a bonus spell slot of the highest spell level she can cast -1. By RAW, that grants her an extra 9th level spell slot when she takes her first Improved Spell Capacity.
I was curious to see what we could build legally before making Mary Sue special rules for them. That's not to say that that afterwards such couldn't be added as well for a chosen template or somesuch.
But I'm curious, why do you think he would brutalize her? Generally, from what I saw of 3.5e, past 20th level, caster level generally had little effect. Also, on the nightmare spinner, again, this build is about just building a character that's kind of fitting to her persona. Her persona to me is pure individual power gamer. What class or prestige class would you take instead of that particular prestige class for a level? No special rules or alternate game system, just knowing that you have another level to take, what would you put it in that would net her more personal power than a level in that class? I mean, if anything, I'd say build out an epic progression for ultimate magi until she has both classes at level 20, but again, I was looking to build with the rules as written. Please take this in the vein intended, I'm looking for ideas, and I'm not married to these, but I'm not hearing the other options that are already represented in 3.5e. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 06:45:22
The problem now is that if you throw her up against Szass, he's going to brutally murder her.
I will still suggest dropping nightmare spinner as the class thematically doesn't fit her, and if you need extra spell slots, you could just make it a baseline ability granted to her as a daughter of the goddess of magic.
Alternatively, mix pathfinder in and turn her into an arcane bloodline sorcerer with the human favored class benefits, which grants her a bonus spell slot of the highest spell level she can cast -1. By RAW, that grants her an extra 9th level spell slot when she takes her first Improved Spell Capacity. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Sep 2020 : 22:25:39
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
My one quibble with Incantatrix for any of the Sisters is the Focused Studies class feature. I do not see the Sisters, especially the Simbul, giving up any schools of spells. If by the power of the Hand Wave you rule the Chosen of Mystra are exempt from this restriction, then by all means Incantatrix works.
My rough build for the Simbul: Sorcerer 13/Wizard 6/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 2 (archmage on wizard to get spells as 19th level wizard by the way).
If you include the Incantatrix, change sorcerer 13 to Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 7.
I strongly recommend dumping the Epic Spellcasting feat that was included in her Epic Level Handbook stats.
Ohhh, that's a damn good point, and one I hadn't noticed. I'll have to relook at things then for some other prestige class, but the idea of sticking straight class doesn't fit to me.
As a suggestion, the known sorcerer spells exclude one school (necromancy?) after level 3. Dump Epic Spellcasting epic feat or Spell Reprieve (epic version homebrew) that eliminates the school restriction. Also recommend dumping summon familiar from sorcerer and wizard levels for minor "oomph!"
Just to temporarily throw out some ideas that might fit for the Simbul to replace the 10 levels of Incantatrix.
Argent Savant - class giving bonus to force effects. Pretty easy to get into. You lose 1 level of casting.
Abjurant Champion - IF in her build we actually had her take a level in ANY class that gave her a single martial weapon, she could go into this. I only mention it because the ideas behind it very much fit her (i.e. casting abjurations freely, having her abjurations be stronger).
In fact, if we replaced the ten levels of incantatrix with these two classes, they kind of mesh well with any caster that uses shield spells, mage armor type effects, and magic missile type effects. I could see THAT fitting the Simbul.
In THAT particular vein, look at this from seven sisters towards justifying a single level of fighter in her build (or maybe something unusual like hexblade, spellthief, swordsage from Tome of Battle, etc...). Or maybe Duskblade... 2 levels gets combat casting...
[/i]Although the influences of Mystra, Azuth, Elminster, and her subjects have sent her drifting toward good aims and deeds, the Simbul is still a chaotic neutral human female 30th-level mage of STR 14, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 18, WIS 15, CHA 17. She has 82 hp, and her usual AC is -6. Over the years, she has done enough adventuring without magic that she can also claim to be a 6th-level fighter.[/i]
Or actually, something just occurred to me... what if INSTEAD of sorcerer, what if she had warmage as her second class? It seems to totally fit her concept of hurling invocations. It also works with ultimate magus. If she had it, then she would qualify for abjurant champion. Also, rather than having a limited selection of spells as a sorceror, she'd have a large number of spells to choose from at each level... thus her wizard levels would be for her "other" types of spells and her warmage levels would be extra blast attacks.
2 duskblade/3 wizard/1 warmage/10 ultimate magus/5 abjurant champion/4 archmage/1 nightmare spinner/1 Loremaster/5 argent savant
Lessee, that puts caster levels at
wizard 20th
warmage 13th
duskblade 3rd
The gains of this build would be a better BAB when she hits epic levels, which might matter for spell effects where she has to hit something. Not a major thing. The other gains are the improvements on her abjurations and a focus on force effects.
I'm really enjoying this discussion, and I feel like we're getting some better ways to really portray what the "characters" of the sisters are like more. I could see it where "early on" in her career the Simbul may have been more of a fighter mage, wearing armor, wielding a weapon as a backup, etc... and with time she's become more of a pure wizard. But, as she became more of a pure wizard, she had to drop the armor, etc... Alternatively a single level in there somewhere might have been also spent as a spellsword as well, and so maybe the Simbul wears some light armor underneath the robes (like a mithril shirt... how many people didn't know that the hobbit was wearing a mithril shirt, etc... ). I personally can see her valuing the ability to wear armor, if only because you can place numerous defenses on it. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 13 Sep 2020 : 21:29:21
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
My one quibble with Incantatrix for any of the Sisters is the Focused Studies class feature. I do not see the Sisters, especially the Simbul, giving up any schools of spells. If by the power of the Hand Wave you rule the Chosen of Mystra are exempt from this restriction, then by all means Incantatrix works.
My rough build for the Simbul: Sorcerer 13/Wizard 6/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 2 (archmage on wizard to get spells as 19th level wizard by the way).
If you include the Incantatrix, change sorcerer 13 to Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 7.
I strongly recommend dumping the Epic Spellcasting feat that was included in her Epic Level Handbook stats.
Ohhh, that's a damn good point, and one I hadn't noticed. I'll have to relook at things then for some other prestige class, but the idea of sticking straight class doesn't fit to me.
As a suggestion, the known sorcerer spells exclude one school (necromancy?) after level 3. Dump Epic Spellcasting epic feat or Spell Reprieve (epic version homebrew) that eliminates the school restriction. Also recommend dumping summon familiar from sorcerer and wizard levels for minor "oomph!" |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Sep 2020 : 20:40:27
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
My one quibble with Incantatrix for any of the Sisters is the Focused Studies class feature. I do not see the Sisters, especially the Simbul, giving up any schools of spells. If by the power of the Hand Wave you rule the Chosen of Mystra are exempt from this restriction, then by all means Incantatrix works.
My rough build for the Simbul: Sorcerer 13/Wizard 6/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 2 (archmage on wizard to get spells as 19th level wizard by the way).
If you include the Incantatrix, change sorcerer 13 to Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 7.
I strongly recommend dumping the Epic Spellcasting feat that was included in her Epic Level Handbook stats.
Ohhh, that's a damn good point, and one I hadn't noticed. I'll have to relook at things then for some other prestige class, but the idea of sticking straight class doesn't fit to me. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Sep 2020 : 20:38:05
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Why nightmare spinner? While the Red Wizards probably believe that the Simbul steals Thayvian babies from their cribs as a midnight snack, the Simbul herself has no association with fear magic. Studying magical fear seems that it would be a better fit for a Banite wizard.
Likewise, I can't see her with incantantrix levels. Altering magical formula seems to be more up a wizard's alley, and the only actual one I could see as an incantatar is Sammaster.
The Simbul has ties to be someone that "generates" fear at times, and people may not know why. She's also "fearless" it seems. This is what nightmare spinner does if you only take a single level. The third and main reason is that you get 9 new spell slots for illusions (one at each level 1 through 9), which she might just fill with "in case" illusion spells. She doesn't even have to use these spells as illusions, as they could just be "burnable" spell slots that she burns the spell in order to generate some other effect.
That seems metagamey. The Simbul being fearless and terrifying does not mean that she's a nightmare spinner, which is a class that revolves around being the Scarecrow.
The nightmare spinner can reach into the darkest recesses of the mind, draw forth his victim's nightmares, and make them seem all too real. He wields fear as his weapon and uses it to cut down even the mightiest opponents. It is irrelevant whether his magic produces real threats or not; they are real enough to his victims.
The Presence of the Mage feat is a far better feat, considering it's tied to the caster being charismatic and having magical oomph.
Prerequisite: Int 11, Cha 17, arcane caster level 18th.
Benefit: Allies within 25 feet of you are heartened and gain a +1 morale bonus on saving throws and attack rolls.
Non-allied creatures within 25 feet of you are slightly unnerved and suffer a -1 penalty on saving throws and attack rolls.
Further, natural animals shy away from you, becoming uneasy within 25 feet. Any attempt by you or your allies to influence an animal using a Charisma-based skill or ability (such as Handle Animal or wild empathy) within this area suffers a -1 penalty. Ride checks made within the area suffer a -2 penalty.
The latter two effects are mind-affecting fear effects.
The idea not being that she joined the prestige class for the fear effects, but rather the spell slots. The fear effects were just gravy and fit with her persona to a degree. I didn't go into the class more than a toe dip (i.e. 1 level), so its not some defining characteristic. So, from that perspective, it is all about her building power (which is the type of character that I see the Simbul being). |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 13 Sep 2020 : 20:04:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I have them all pegged as level 19-26 Plot Devices.
-- George Krashos
Pfft. The Simbul is clearly a level 28 Plot Device.
 
Add 4 to the level to account for the Cheater, err, Chosen of Mystra template. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 13 Sep 2020 : 19:56:00
My one quibble with Incantatrix for any of the Sisters is the Focused Studies class feature. I do not see the Sisters, especially the Simbul, giving up any schools of spells. If by the power of the Hand Wave you rule the Chosen of Mystra are exempt from this restriction, then by all means Incantatrix works.
My rough build for the Simbul: Sorcerer 13/Wizard 6/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 2 (archmage on wizard to get spells as 19th level wizard by the way).
If you include the Incantatrix, change sorcerer 13 to Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 7.
I strongly recommend dumping the Epic Spellcasting feat that was included in her Epic Level Handbook stats. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 13 Sep 2020 : 08:01:58
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Why nightmare spinner? While the Red Wizards probably believe that the Simbul steals Thayvian babies from their cribs as a midnight snack, the Simbul herself has no association with fear magic. Studying magical fear seems that it would be a better fit for a Banite wizard.
Likewise, I can't see her with incantantrix levels. Altering magical formula seems to be more up a wizard's alley, and the only actual one I could see as an incantatar is Sammaster.
The Simbul has ties to be someone that "generates" fear at times, and people may not know why. She's also "fearless" it seems. This is what nightmare spinner does if you only take a single level. The third and main reason is that you get 9 new spell slots for illusions (one at each level 1 through 9), which she might just fill with "in case" illusion spells. She doesn't even have to use these spells as illusions, as they could just be "burnable" spell slots that she burns the spell in order to generate some other effect.
That seems metagamey. The Simbul being fearless and terrifying does not mean that she's a nightmare spinner, which is a class that revolves around being the Scarecrow.
The nightmare spinner can reach into the darkest recesses of the mind, draw forth his victim's nightmares, and make them seem all too real. He wields fear as his weapon and uses it to cut down even the mightiest opponents. It is irrelevant whether his magic produces real threats or not; they are real enough to his victims.
The Presence of the Mage feat is a far better feat, considering it's tied to the caster being charismatic and having magical oomph.
Prerequisite: Int 11, Cha 17, arcane caster level 18th.
Benefit: Allies within 25 feet of you are heartened and gain a +1 morale bonus on saving throws and attack rolls.
Non-allied creatures within 25 feet of you are slightly unnerved and suffer a -1 penalty on saving throws and attack rolls.
Further, natural animals shy away from you, becoming uneasy within 25 feet. Any attempt by you or your allies to influence an animal using a Charisma-based skill or ability (such as Handle Animal or wild empathy) within this area suffers a -1 penalty. Ride checks made within the area suffer a -2 penalty.
The latter two effects are mind-affecting fear effects. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Sep 2020 : 16:08:49
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, I hadn't realized they bumped her to 32 (for some reason I was thinking she was 28, but even seven sisters has her at 30 when I look). In that respect then that gives me 4 more levels to play with. I DO like that idea of putting her in as warlock for the abilities, especially if we say that her patron is Mystra (as a point to that, when Mystra dies, that means she should lose her warlock abilities in some way). That's an interesting idea.
I'm not particularly fond of adding a warlock patron to the mix of the allegiances of the Simbul, but the idea of her blasting stuff all day long has some merit so why not go straight for Mystril as a patron? She is already dead and staying that way and can be a good excuse for the Simbul deeper knowledge of ancient and more primal magic. Alternatively you can go for Karsus for the lulz as someone has to keep an eye on that guy (and this might help explain the "attitude problems" the Simbul always had).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, just to play devil's advocate, if the point is to give her some blast effect she can use all day, what if she instead goes with a couple reserve feats. I admit, I'm not big on wasting feats like this, but she seems like a person that might use them. Of all the reserve feats, 3 stand out to me as ones I'd love to give the Simbul. I don't see her spending 3 feats on this though, so which 2 do YOU see her taking (or do you see her taking another reserve feat, and if so which)?
Mystic backlash (touch a spellcaster, and for a number of rounds equal to the highest level abjuration spell you have available, said spellcaster takes 1 point of damager per spell level as well, every time they cast a spell). Since this isn't a spell itself, it can bypass a lot of protections, even if its not a lot of damage per round.
Fiery Burst (reserve feat for a 1d6 fire dmg/spell level 5' radius fire burst for the highest level fire spell you have available with range 30 feet, also give +1 caster level for fire spells)
Storm Bolt ((reserve feat for a 1d6 lightning dmg /spell level 5' line 20 feet long for the highest level lightning spell you have available, also give +1 caster level for lightning spells)
I would go for Fiery Burst first and Storm Bolt second because she is the Michael Bay of the Seven. Fiery burst could do well as standalone as there is meteor swarm at 9th level giving 9d6 damage whereas I think the highest lightning damage spell is ... chain lightning at 6th? So Fiery Burst would have more punch.
On Alustriel, I like archivist as a way to get divine spells and I like the concept you are after but I don't like war weaver as I don't see her actively doing that past whatever buffing a regular wizard with mighty powers would do: mass stat boosts and a teleport circle to make sure her strike team gets where she wants them with an advantage sure, actually preparing a different tapestry for random Knights in Silver patrols probably not.
Then again maybe she has a magical tapestry linking her to all her sons instead of random agents of Silverymoon, and on occasions she can extend it to her sisters (like in the case of Storm chasing Xvim) ...
On Storm
I think we're on the same page, as I was thinking fiery burst and storm bolt myself as more fitting her. Mystic backlash I see as something a more "conniving" and less "in your face" wizard would use. With Storm Bolt, I don't know if they ever adapted the spell to 3.5e, but I was always favored of both Storm AND the Simbul habitually carrying Lightning Ring (8th level, makes you immune to lightning and hurl 2 minor lightning for several rounds). I can see the Simbul carrying that spell and just using it to keep the storm bolt powered at 8d6 damage unless she has a need for protection or the need to send a mass lightning discharge (said mass lightning discharge can be against a single opponent or multiple). While this spell would need to be updated to 3.5e for damage and things, the general idea behind it is pretty balanced.
On Alustriel
Bear in mind, with war weaver, since she did go to the trouble of multiclassing, there's nothing that prevents her using any spell she has with the tapestry. So, she could take a simple cure light wounds/cure moderate wounds/cure serious wounds spell and use it across her tapestry. The class itself calls out against making a VARIANT of the class specifically for divine casters (i.e. someone who doesn't learn any arcane casting), but there's nothing stopping you multiclassing and using it. Also, just to note, the tapestry is only for spells of a level equal to class level (so max 5th level).
I picture that she probably has a select group of hand picked body guards (some of which may be her sons, so that's a good point) and spellcasters that are usually with her pretty much around the clock. Also, it only takes 10 minutes and a weaving check to change the members. There's also nothing that says how often you can change the members. So, I could see this being something where she's at X spot, and assuming she has INT 20 like in the epic handbook, that's 5 people (I honestly picture her having something to boost INT by +4 or +6... what wizard wouldn't at that level... so it would probably be 2 or 3 other people as well). She picks the people she knows well and who she knows will be around for a few hours in service to her. When she goes with her sisters on missions, she probably acts primarily as the party healer (with others also helping on that front). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Sep 2020 : 15:37:55
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Why nightmare spinner? While the Red Wizards probably believe that the Simbul steals Thayvian babies from their cribs as a midnight snack, the Simbul herself has no association with fear magic. Studying magical fear seems that it would be a better fit for a Banite wizard.
Likewise, I can't see her with incantantrix levels. Altering magical formula seems to be more up a wizard's alley, and the only actual one I could see as an incantatar is Sammaster.
The Simbul has ties to be someone that "generates" fear at times, and people may not know why. She's also "fearless" it seems. This is what nightmare spinner does if you only take a single level. The third and main reason is that you get 9 new spell slots for illusions (one at each level 1 through 9), which she might just fill with "in case" illusion spells. She doesn't even have to use these spells as illusions, as they could just be "burnable" spell slots that she burns the spell in order to generate some other effect. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 12 Sep 2020 : 11:22:17
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, I hadn't realized they bumped her to 32 (for some reason I was thinking she was 28, but even seven sisters has her at 30 when I look). In that respect then that gives me 4 more levels to play with. I DO like that idea of putting her in as warlock for the abilities, especially if we say that her patron is Mystra (as a point to that, when Mystra dies, that means she should lose her warlock abilities in some way). That's an interesting idea.
I'm not particularly fond of adding a warlock patron to the mix of the allegiances of the Simbul, but the idea of her blasting stuff all day long has some merit so why not go straight for Mystril as a patron? She is already dead and staying that way and can be a good excuse for the Simbul deeper knowledge of ancient and more primal magic. Alternatively you can go for Karsus for the lulz as someone has to keep an eye on that guy (and this might help explain the "attitude problems" the Simbul always had).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, just to play devil's advocate, if the point is to give her some blast effect she can use all day, what if she instead goes with a couple reserve feats. I admit, I'm not big on wasting feats like this, but she seems like a person that might use them. Of all the reserve feats, 3 stand out to me as ones I'd love to give the Simbul. I don't see her spending 3 feats on this though, so which 2 do YOU see her taking (or do you see her taking another reserve feat, and if so which)?
Mystic backlash (touch a spellcaster, and for a number of rounds equal to the highest level abjuration spell you have available, said spellcaster takes 1 point of damager per spell level as well, every time they cast a spell). Since this isn't a spell itself, it can bypass a lot of protections, even if its not a lot of damage per round.
Fiery Burst (reserve feat for a 1d6 fire dmg/spell level 5' radius fire burst for the highest level fire spell you have available with range 30 feet, also give +1 caster level for fire spells)
Storm Bolt ((reserve feat for a 1d6 lightning dmg /spell level 5' line 20 feet long for the highest level lightning spell you have available, also give +1 caster level for lightning spells)
I would go for Fiery Burst first and Storm Bolt second because she is the Michael Bay of the Seven. Fiery burst could do well as standalone as there is meteor swarm at 9th level giving 9d6 damage whereas I think the highest lightning damage spell is ... chain lightning at 6th? So Fiery Burst would have more punch.
On Alustriel, I like archivist as a way to get divine spells and I like the concept you are after but I don't like war weaver as I don't see her actively doing that past whatever buffing a regular wizard with mighty powers would do: mass stat boosts and a teleport circle to make sure her strike team gets where she wants them with an advantage sure, actually preparing a different tapestry for random Knights in Silver patrols probably not.
Then again maybe she has a magical tapestry linking her to all her sons instead of random agents of Silverymoon, and on occasions she can extend it to her sisters (like in the case of Storm chasing Xvim) ... |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 12 Sep 2020 : 10:59:56
Why nightmare spinner? While the Red Wizards probably believe that the Simbul steals Thayvian babies from their cribs as a midnight snack, the Simbul herself has no association with fear magic. Studying magical fear seems that it would be a better fit for a Banite wizard.
Likewise, I can't see her with incantantrix levels. Altering magical formula seems to be more up a wizard's alley, and the only actual one I could see as an incantatar is Sammaster. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 12 Sep 2020 : 06:37:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I think all the characters in the FRCS kind of got a bad deal simply due to the fact that it uses the very basics of 3.0 in which almost no other support was made for it. So when Drizzt (and a whole bunch of NPCs) were made, you didn't have much to pull from. Not to mention that he specifically takes a hit to his XP earned since his Multiclassing is all wonky (3 classes, none of which are his favored by race). I wonder if that every entered their minds when they created them?
One of the things that marked the 3.x era was the entire pages of stats -- and the fact that the stats didn't always match what the character was described as being able to do. I recall several instances of this, but the most notable one was an NPC in a web article, described as being a skilled dancer -- but not having the associated skill in the statblock.
Oof, yeah that's problematic lol. I also blame 3e/3.5 for having the need for things like Perform BUT not giving the classes enough points to make use of it |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Sep 2020 : 19:40:47
Moving on, let's take a look at Alustriel. Now personally, of all the chosen, except for possibly Sylune, I see Alustriel is more of a TEAM player. She's the opposite of the Simbul whose feats and class choices will all be about building her skills as an individual.
As a result, I see one of the first paths I'd go with Alustriel is with war weaver from Heroes of Battle. This class also fits her vibe that I see her as skilled with weaving in a classical sense (i.e. embroidery, sewing, etc...). This class you build a "tapestry" that covers a small group of people that you pick daily, and then you can cast effectively single targeted (but not personal) spells and have them affect all the people in the tapestry. You also "hang" these effects in the tapestry and can drop them all at once when you need to do so. Thus, protections, buffs, etc... are quickly cast across the tapestry to quickly protect people so that the person can get around to casting. Eventually you can affect individuals in your tapestry with increased range (i.e. a touch spell become close range, etc...)
Interestingly, the spellguard of silverymoon's selective spell class ability is somewhat similar to this and they also later have an ability to cast defensive spells on other people that are personal as touch spells.
I also picture Alustriel as using healing magics. I'd normally think take the feat that allows using the healing domain spells, but I could also see her going to any of cleric, druid, OR paladin (druid with her unicorn and forest/nature fetish). However, she is CG, and druid requires a neutral component (hmm, that could be a problem with Storm above, but I'd be inclined to change Storm to NG). But then again, there IS another kind of divine caster, and one which COULD get us spells from ALL of these classes. The Archivist let's you SCRIBE any divine spell into a "spellbook" and then you can cast them. Sounds like a great way for Alustriel to learn all kinds of tasty cleric, paladin, druid, or even ranger divine spells for use as a "buffer"/"healer".
Looks like the Epic Handbook set her as level 24, so let's start with that.
There's only a few wizard/divine caster theurging classes, so let's delve from that angle.
archivist 3/ wizard 3/ mystic theurge 10 / war weaver 5 / archmage 3
It's a relatively straightforward build. It's almost like a straight wizard. BAB at level 20 is only +9, which is even 1 point lower than a wizard's. However, she's not meant for melee. She's a 20th level wizard, plus she also has the spellcasting slots of a 13th level archivist and pretty much any divine spell she could have gotten her hands on to scribe (which in my mind, totally fits a follower of Mystra, especially one who lives in a city that's all about colleges, scribes, etc...). Her archivist special skills also somewhat resemble a bard's, though its more occult based. With her war weaving, she can back up groups of knights, or her fellow chosen. With her archmage levels, arcane reach, mastery of shaping, and mastery of elements seem like the best choices.
sidebar: doesn't fit her "character", but looking at this really makes me want to look at a fighter/wizard build that employs fighter2/wizard4/abjurant champion5/spellsword1/eldritch knight6/war weaver 5 where the person has a focus on abjuration spells and maybe the feat for domain spellcasting for healing spells. They'd be a 20th level caster, able to wear some light armor, wield weapons quite well, and they'd make a really good buffer with low level abjurations or hung spells in their tapestry. Granted, that's a lvl 23 character, and most of the being a good buffer for multiple people would be coming in at the upper levels unless you delay some eldritch knight levels to the end (not a bad option, if you take the first 2 levels of war weaver, then eldritch knight, then come back to war weaver at the epic levels). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Sep 2020 : 16:48:11
quote:
Originally posted by see
My personal approach to the Simbul was to take the 32 levels she had (per the ELH, Sorcrer 20/Archmage 2/Wizard 10) and apply them as follows:
Sorcerer 1/Warlock 1/Wizard 3 (5 levels)
Ultimate Magus 10 (effectively Sor 11/War 1/Wiz 10, 15 levels)
Eldritch Theurge 5 (effectively Sor 16/War 6/Wiz 10, 20 levels)
Incanatrix 10 (effectively Sor 26/War 6/Wiz 10, 30 levels)
Archmage 2 (effectively Sor 28/War 6/Wiz 10, 32 levels)
With the Practiced Spellcaster feat, that got her effective sorcerer caster level to her full character level of 32 (critically important for dealing with peer-level characters in the 3.x rules), while she still had the full Wiz10 spellcasting and Archmage 2 class features of the ELH writeup, got the combined metamagic benefits of both Incanatrix and Ultimate Magus, and had the ability to Eldritch Blast all day long (for 3d6) without using spell slots.
Oh, I hadn't realized they bumped her to 32 (for some reason I was thinking she was 28, but even seven sisters has her at 30 when I look). In that respect then that gives me 4 more levels to play with. I DO like that idea of putting her in as warlock for the abilities, especially if we say that her patron is Mystra (as a point to that, when Mystra dies, that means she should lose her warlock abilities in some way). That's an interesting idea.
However, just to play devil's advocate, if the point is to give her some blast effect she can use all day, what if she instead goes with a couple reserve feats. I admit, I'm not big on wasting feats like this, but she seems like a person that might use them. Of all the reserve feats, 3 stand out to me as ones I'd love to give the Simbul. I don't see her spending 3 feats on this though, so which 2 do YOU see her taking (or do you see her taking another reserve feat, and if so which)?
Mystic backlash (touch a spellcaster, and for a number of rounds equal to the highest level abjuration spell you have available, said spellcaster takes 1 point of damager per spell level as well, every time they cast a spell). Since this isn't a spell itself, it can bypass a lot of protections, even if its not a lot of damage per round.
Fiery Burst (reserve feat for a 1d6 fire dmg/spell level 5' radius fire burst for the highest level fire spell you have available with range 30 feet, also give +1 caster level for fire spells)
Storm Bolt ((reserve feat for a 1d6 lightning dmg /spell level 5' line 20 feet long for the highest level lightning spell you have available, also give +1 caster level for lightning spells)
If I did do this, then I'd probably do the same build I was previously doing and add nightmare spinner for a level (it fits that the Simbul can inspire fear like few others). This also gives her an additional bonus illusionist spell of each spell level (1-9). It also make her immune to fear (also a very Simbul thing). It doesn't increase caster level, but at this point, she's already high enough in level in both wizard and sorcerer, so its more about getting 9 new spell slots and immunity to fear with a single class level.
That leaves 3 more levels... Loremaster for 1 level would gain another feat (via secret), then maybe 2 more levels of archmage for 2 more high arcana (I see her having mastery of elements, mastery of shaping, arcane reach, and mastery of counterspelling) .
5 wizard/1 sorcerer/10 incantatrix/ 10 ultimate magus/4 archmage/1 nightmare spinner/1 Loremaster,
Of all the sisters, I see her with improved counterspell and reactive counterspell as well. Of all the chosen, I think choosing feats for THIS one will be the hardest for me, because I picture her with so many magical options. I also picture her with craft contingent spell. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Sep 2020 : 14:10:56
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I think all the characters in the FRCS kind of got a bad deal simply due to the fact that it uses the very basics of 3.0 in which almost no other support was made for it. So when Drizzt (and a whole bunch of NPCs) were made, you didn't have much to pull from. Not to mention that he specifically takes a hit to his XP earned since his Multiclassing is all wonky (3 classes, none of which are his favored by race). I wonder if that every entered their minds when they created them?
One of the things that marked the 3.x era was the entire pages of stats -- and the fact that the stats didn't always match what the character was described as being able to do. I recall several instances of this, but the most notable one was an NPC in a web article, described as being a skilled dancer -- but not having the associated skill in the statblock. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 11 Sep 2020 : 07:03:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ain't no party like a Cross-Down Party! 
(I kid! I usually ignore typos, unless I can have some fun with them! )
Haha, Cross-down parties are pretty amazing, I gotta say!
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Drizzt has always been the poster-child of inadequate statblocks, for me -- simply because characters are written for a story, not to be playable. Obviously, he has to hew close to established rules and so we shan't expect him to toss a fireball any time soon, but for him and so many other characters, game rules just don't work. Fiction characters are beyond rulesets.
It also doesn't help that with constant additions to the game, later rules -- like the dervish class -- may be more suitable than what was available during a previous write-up.
Very true, though I am surprised that Drizzt hasn't been "statted" in 5th Edition yet. I assumed that, with Rime of the Frost Maiden being set in the area of Icewind Dale, we'll get a write-up of him there.
I think all the characters in the FRCS kind of got a bad deal simply due to the fact that it uses the very basics of 3.0 in which almost no other support was made for it. So when Drizzt (and a whole bunch of NPCs) were made, you didn't have much to pull from. Not to mention that he specifically takes a hit to his XP earned since his Multiclassing is all wonky (3 classes, none of which are his favored by race). I wonder if that every entered their minds when they created them? |
| see |
Posted - 11 Sep 2020 : 00:47:36
My personal approach to the Simbul was to take the 32 levels she had (per the ELH, Sorcrer 20/Archmage 2/Wizard 10) and apply them as follows:
Sorcerer 1/Warlock 1/Wizard 3 (5 levels)
Ultimate Magus 10 (effectively Sor 11/War 1/Wiz 10, 15 levels)
Eldritch Theurge 5 (effectively Sor 16/War 6/Wiz 10, 20 levels)
Incanatrix 10 (effectively Sor 26/War 6/Wiz 10, 30 levels)
Archmage 2 (effectively Sor 28/War 6/Wiz 10, 32 levels)
With the Practiced Spellcaster feat, that got her effective sorcerer caster level to her full character level of 32 (critically important for dealing with peer-level characters in the 3.x rules), while she still had the full Wiz10 spellcasting and Archmage 2 class features of the ELH writeup, got the combined metamagic benefits of both Incanatrix and Ultimate Magus, and had the ability to Eldritch Blast all day long (for 3d6) without using spell slots. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Sep 2020 : 21:34:00
yeah, that's exactly why I was looking at fochlucan lyrist. Its damn hard to get in because you have to do rogue, bard, and druid (though in the past I've house ruled a Deneiran getting in by shenanigans as some would call it... a Deneiran cleric being a god of languages acquiring the druid tongue via quest.. that was just one NPC though).
It might be a little weird, because Storm doesn't have an animal companion that we know of, but having her take arcane hierophant from races of the wild instead of mystic theurge isn't a bad BAB (it's the clerical BAB) and builds both arcane and divine, plus it lets you bypass arcane spell failure if you're wearing armor that a druid would favor. Hmmm, oddly, Fochlucan Lyrist lets you bypass the normal druid requirements for armor as a specific class ability. In theory you could allow that for Storm to wear non-druidic armors that she's proficient in (for a PC, I'd be hesitant, but for this NPC..... ah, probably still wouldn't allow it). Arcane hierophant also lets you combine your wizard and druid levels for determining your animal companion, but you give up your familiar... but the companion would still be weak from all the multiclassing, so not I can see why she might not keep one called (she might call a companion to serve as a spy, but not to fight with her maybe, so people may not know about it... and now I'm picturing Storm with some little songbird spy that she looks through its eyes).
So, if for Dove we did rogue2/bard1/wizard1/druid3/fochlucan lyrist10/arcane hierophant5 for a level 22 character ... let's see .... +15 BAB at level 20 (I forget the progression after 20... and that might have to adjust some of that earlier stuff.. forgot things change at epic). She'd actually be highest spellcasting as a druid (level 18) followed by wizard (16) and only 1st level as a bard spellcaster (you could swap the wizard and bard, but I wouldn't). She'd get her bardic music and bardic knowledge enhanced by both bard and fochlucan, so they'd be at level 11. The one thing "suffering" through all this would be her fort saves, which would be +7 at level 20, but even that's not horrible (actually not bad considering most classes have at least one save that's +6 at lvl 20). Her reflex would be +13 and will would be +17 at level 20. With the fochlucan she could build a lot of rogue skills as the skill progression for the class is pretty strong. The one thing on this build would be that she'd have to probably burn a feat to get her perform up high enough to enter the class at 8th level (I forget the rule for what can be your skill max, but it requires a perform of 13). Still, decent skills, very nice spellcasting in both druid and wizard, bardic abilities, plus not a slouch at physical combat (the equivalent of a bard of the same level) and even a minor sneak attack bonus (just 1d6, but hey, it's something). |
| Demzer |
Posted - 10 Sep 2020 : 20:10:49
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmm, I'm looking at your builds Demzer, and I like most of them, but if you don't mind, I still want to tweak.
I don't mind at all, go ahead, make them yours!
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
stuff on the Symbul and Dove
Those work for sure! Another possibility for Dove, but it's tricky to add it in replacing something (maybe paladin and some EK levels?), is to add Divine Champion from PGtF. It would hurt her spellcasting but increase her fighting prowess and I always think of her as more of a generalist fighter boosted by magic than an actual spellcasters.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On Storm, I think I like it, but I'm going to try and take another spin on it. Not right now though. I see her as definitely building her bardic and wizard spellcasting levels. Even though she's a harper, I don't see her doing harper agent, as she already has the bardic ability to get knowledge. I want to see if there's some way to build her in bard, wizard, and maybe even druid levels at the same time. Fochlucan Lyrist would seem to fit her, but the requirements are rough, and would probably require some rogue. Ultimate Magus would raise both bard and wizard. Mystic theurge could be used to raise either bard or wizard along with the druid casting. I know people don't think of Storm as a druid, but doing this makes her fit the "traditional" 1e version of the "bard" more along with giving her some decide mix of spellcasting. I'd probably have her focus spellcasting levels on druid and wizard primarily for versatility, since in 2e bards used wizard spells. Just not sure how to make this build.
Storm is a tough one because she *is* a Jack-of-All-Trades and the most harpish(?) of the bunch (that's why I had given her the harper agent PrC). So she should have exquisite bardic abilities, good spellcasting abilities, good fighting abilities and some ranger-y/druid-y stuff to the side. Not as easy as her spellcasting sisters for sure!
Oh, I just noticed the Fochlucan Lyrist from Complete Adventurer gives full BAB progression too, maybe it is worth dropping two rogue levels in for evasion (and trapfinding which never hurts on someone as savvy as her). |
| Demzer |
Posted - 10 Sep 2020 : 19:50:45
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Demzer does a very good job of detailing the Seven Sisters, so I wouldn't even touch those lol.
One NPC that always kind of bothered me with never getting a proper rewrite was Drizzt. Especially with the later things that certain classes could do, specifically alternate class features and feats, the FRCS kinda did him dirty. I'd probably go make Drow Ftr 4 (hit and run tactics ACF DotU)/Bbn 1 (lion totem for Pounce Complete Champion )/ Dervish 10/Warblade 1; CR 18.
The last 4 levels are kinda up for grabs. Levels in the Tome of Battle certainly add to his survivability AND play into his Writing. I mean, Drizzt signature Cross-Down Party is pretty legendary and fits right in as a maneuver. Still, 4 levels of Tempest ( Complete Adventurer can't be ignored since it drops that TWF penalty to 0/0. He'd also need Feats like Daylight Adaptation (PGtF) and Deeper Darkness (DotU) for extra Darkness uses that we saw in A Thousand Orcs.
Thanks!
I really like the concept of Tome of Battle but never got around to studying the mechanics and classes in detail.
And yeah, poor Drizzt is so iconic he gets statted at the start of every new edition (or close to it) and is always "mechanically impaired". |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Sep 2020 : 15:23:17
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Demzer does a very good job of detailing the Seven Sisters, so I wouldn't even touch those lol.
One NPC that always kind of bothered me with never getting a proper rewrite was Drizzt. Especially with the later things that certain classes could do, specifically alternate class features and feats, the FRCS kinda did him dirty. I'd probably go make Drow Ftr 4 (hit and run tactics ACF DotU)/Bbn 1 (lion totem for Pounce Complete Champion )/ Dervish 10/Warblade 1; CR 18.
The last 4 levels are kinda up for grabs. Levels in the Tome of Battle certainly add to his survivability AND play into his Writing. I mean, Drizzt signature Cross-Down Party is pretty legendary and fits right in as a maneuver. Still, 4 levels of Tempest ( Complete Adventurer can't be ignored since it drops that TWF penalty to 0/0. He'd also need Feats like Daylight Adaptation (PGtF) and Deeper Darkness (DotU) for extra Darkness uses that we saw in A Thousand Orcs.
I like the idea of trying to rework some NPC's as well with that book in mind. I'm not sure which ones though. Perhaps some of the Impilturan or Damaran Nobility. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Sep 2020 : 15:12:53
Hmm, I'm looking at your builds Demzer, and I like most of them, but if you don't mind, I still want to tweak.
Oh, and on your aside about classes with their own spell progression.... yeah, I hate that on Nar Demonbinder and any other class. I don't mind the idea of an extra spell getting added to their list specifically for that class, but keep advancing your classes.
I probably wouldn't stick the Simbul so straight class on wizard and sorcerer (the ultimate magus is where we both agree she would go). I'd probably go with 10 levels of incantatrix and take them from the sorcerer and wizard levels. I'd probably also want to put her character level around 28, since I know that's what her level was. So, playing with that, 5 wizard/1 sorcerer/10 incantatrix/ 10 ultimate magus/2 archmage puts her at 28th character level, with 22 caster level as wizard and 21st caster level as sorcerer plus the 2 archmage special abilities if my in my head math is right.
On Dove, you have some really good ideas with using the harper paragon, but the two feat requirements are a bit much for me and the BAB loss for full progression kind of is also a downer. I do like the paladin of freedom point though. Still, taking your ideas and thinking on them (and putting her at 22nd level, just because)... let's see, so fighter 2/ranger 2/paladin of freedom 2/wizard 1/abjurant champion 5/spellsword 3/eldritch knight 7. That puts her with almost a full BAB, 14th lvl wizard casting for which spells she has, but her caster level would equal her BAB from abjurant champion (so 21st level). Her base saves without ability scores, magic items, or paladin's grace would be fort +18, ref +7, will +11 , and the paladin's grace would affect all 3 if you made Dove beautiful (and let's face it, they're all supposed to have a huge Charisma). Nets her a lot of bonus feats too to use as fighter (two from fighter, one from ranger, one from spellsword, one from eldritch knight) too. I'd definitely have her using shield a lot since its quickened and extended for free, so she could still fight two weapon style (her ranger feat) and have a nice AC from that. Not sure why, but I now picture Dove as having a dancing blade as well.
Oh, I haven't looked at how the build goes, but let me say I like your Quilue. It seems to fit her "idea".
On Storm, I think I like it, but I'm going to try and take another spin on it. Not right now though. I see her as definitely building her bardic and wizard spellcasting levels. Even though she's a harper, I don't see her doing harper agent, as she already has the bardic ability to get knowledge. I want to see if there's some way to build her in bard, wizard, and maybe even druid levels at the same time. Fochlucan Lyrist would seem to fit her, but the requirements are rough, and would probably require some rogue. Ultimate Magus would raise both bard and wizard. Mystic theurge could be used to raise either bard or wizard along with the druid casting. I know people don't think of Storm as a druid, but doing this makes her fit the "traditional" 1e version of the "bard" more along with giving her some decide mix of spellcasting. I'd probably have her focus spellcasting levels on druid and wizard primarily for versatility, since in 2e bards used wizard spells. Just not sure how to make this build. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Sep 2020 : 15:02:27
Ain't no party like a Cross-Down Party!
(I kid! I usually ignore typos, unless I can have some fun with them! )
Drizzt has always been the poster-child of inadequate statblocks, for me -- simply because characters are written for a story, not to be playable. Obviously, he has to hew close to established rules and so we shan't expect him to toss a fireball any time soon, but for him and so many other characters, game rules just don't work. Fiction characters are beyond rulesets.
It also doesn't help that with constant additions to the game, later rules -- like the dervish class -- may be more suitable than what was available during a previous write-up. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 10 Sep 2020 : 12:30:03
Demzer does a very good job of detailing the Seven Sisters, so I wouldn't even touch those lol.
One NPC that always kind of bothered me with never getting a proper rewrite was Drizzt. Especially with the later things that certain classes could do, specifically alternate class features and feats, the FRCS kinda did him dirty. I'd probably go make Drow Ftr 4 (hit and run tactics ACF DotU)/Bbn 1 (lion totem for Pounce Complete Champion )/ Dervish 10/Warblade 1; CR 18.
The last 4 levels are kinda up for grabs. Levels in the Tome of Battle certainly add to his survivability AND play into his Writing. I mean, Drizzt signature Cross-Down Parry* is pretty legendary and fits right in as a maneuver. Still, 4 levels of Tempest ( Complete Adventurer can't be ignored since it drops that TWF penalty to 0/0. He'd also need Feats like Daylight Adaptation (PGtF) and Deeper Darkness (DotU) for extra Darkness uses that we saw in A Thousand Orcs. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 10 Sep 2020 : 12:26:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I have them all pegged as level 19-26 Plot Devices.
-- George Krashos
Pfft. The Simbul is clearly a level 28 Plot Device.
You are both completely right, but I have a member of my 15 years old static group who can become very argumentative so I need an idea of how to "build" plot device characters "by the books" to shut down arguments.
Beside that, when you are a dungeon master for a long time it's nice to play around with tweaking builds with 20-30 hd worth of filling (while avoiding idiocy like punpun and triplebetrayers and all that stuff). |
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