| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Sep 2020 : 20:58:41
Was randomly looking for lore on Myrkul and worshippers that might have followed Myrkul before converting to Cyric.
Then i came across the Myth of Four Rivers in the Empires of the Shining Sea.
The story is a typical muddled legend but i picked out some interesting points
The four who should not be named are clearly modelled after Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul plus one extra. Given that we have the cruel one, the brother of true fear, the pain giver, and the warrior whose sword drips anger, i'm thinking cruel one is Bane, brother of true fear is Myrkul, the warrior whose sword drips is bhaal, and the pain giver i'm gonna guess at loviatar.
The story is a lot of muddled nonsense and confused with the legend of the creation of Calimshans Rivers (in the original of which the four would be the 4 genie lords (djinn, marid, efreet, and the earth one).
In the later corrupted legend we now know it seems that the Dark Three plus an additional one wanted to challenge father sky (i'm guessing that means become a god).
The four went on an adventure and Bhaal managed to get rid of Loviatar (sending her on a wild goose chase).
The Dark Three travelled to the Peak that Gods Fear, which i think means there was some kind of demi/quasi deity like Borem, Maram, Haask, etc, but a new one that has thus far been undocumented.
The Dark Three must have found this quasi being and battled him because from the muddled legend i can gather that the mountain was shattered.
From the geographic info of the legend, near Spider's Swamp, created the four rivers, shattered mountain, etc. I'm going to guess that it happened in the Marching Mountains (it helps that the dragon skull the legend it is inscribed on was a servant of Bane and lived in the Marching Mountains). Reading through some mountains i can see that Ruler's Ridge is a peak with the top broken off in a long ago genie war, well perhaps the genies fought her against another evil and the Dark Three came here to defeat that evil later and finish the job.
The Dark Three were moving around Netheril and the Vilhon around -357 to -355. The dragon was killed in -284 DR and was the most powerful servant of the dark three. So that leaves a gap of 70 years where the Dark Three travelled from Netheril to Calimshan. However George has written that Bhaal took part in a ritual at Ascore in -339. So sometime after -339 DR and before -284 DR the Dark Three arrived in Calimshan. Around -307 DR the tethyrians start attacking and conquering Calishite territory before being granted independence in -288 DR, i'd be willing to bet that the Dark Three and the dragon Rivenaurlgoth were involved in that somehow. |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 17 Sep 2020 : 19:06:42
Great Reader Dallison,
I am curious about something you mentioned:
quote:
I'm going to rule out Thay because the version of this tale was penned in -284 DR, long before Thay existed and before there was any real contact between Thay and Calimshan (Calimshan traded and warred with Jhaamdath but there is no indication their exposure went beyond that).
Especially in medieval times, trade and war are the ways that information, culture, religion, etc. are exchanged, willingly or not. As to the Thay issue, while you are certainly correct that Thay didn't exist then, recall that The Citadel on Thaymount is believed to hail back to Batrachi/Creator Race times. Who knows what was going on at that point in the Jhaamdath Empire times that could have led to more than we think?
Thoughts?
Best regards,
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Sep 2020 : 21:25:09
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
I'm glad to marvel and enjoy the discussion herein. All those myths in EoSS were built to do just this--spark new ideas and make new connections without stating absolutely and definitively any canonical truths.
After all, pick up any culture's creation myths and you'll find wide disparities as well as major similarities whether the cultures had contact or not.
And just to add more mud to the waters, I ought to blow the dust off some ancient myths and stories I'd scribbled in notes long ago talking about spelljamming ships...but don't want to go all Erich von Daniken on the Realms with the elves... :D
Anything you can give, much appreciated. Way back when I wasn't as much into spelljamming as I've come to appreciate in the past ten years (because at the time I didn't have the money for spelljammer beyond the main boxed set).
Also, I am glad that you do like the spins. Just wondering though, I'm suspecting your original intent had some ties to the dawn cataclysm? |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 07 Sep 2020 : 17:49:18
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
I'm glad to marvel and enjoy the discussion herein. All those myths in EoSS were built to do just this--spark new ideas and make new connections without stating absolutely and definitively any canonical truths.
After all, pick up any culture's creation myths and you'll find wide disparities as well as major similarities whether the cultures had contact or not.
And just to add more mud to the waters, I ought to blow the dust off some ancient myths and stories I'd scribbled in notes long ago talking about spelljamming ships...but don't want to go all Erich von Daniken on the Realms with the elves... :D
Please continue. I used to enjoy watching that Ancient Aliens TV show until they went in the direction that EVERYTHING technological is linked back to aliens. Apparently, we (mankind) are just too stupid to be able to come up with anything on our own. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 07 Sep 2020 : 17:36:20
I'm glad to marvel and enjoy the discussion herein. All those myths in EoSS were built to do just this--spark new ideas and make new connections without stating absolutely and definitively any canonical truths.
After all, pick up any culture's creation myths and you'll find wide disparities as well as major similarities whether the cultures had contact or not.
And just to add more mud to the waters, I ought to blow the dust off some ancient myths and stories I'd scribbled in notes long ago talking about spelljamming ships...but don't want to go all Erich von Daniken on the Realms with the elves... :D |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Sep 2020 : 15:11:46
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
This was pre wotc days and is written by Steven schend so this was done carefully and with consideration.
I'm going to rule out Thay because the version of this tale was penned in -284 DR, long before Thay existed and before there was any real contact between Thay and Calimshan (Calimshan traded and warred with Jhaamdath but there is no indication their exposure went beyond that).
Further this was penned in -284 DR after the fall of Jhaamdath and Netheril, both nations of which abandoned their gods after the fall, so if any migrants headed south to calimshan they are unlikely to have retold stories about gods they hate.
Then there is the fact that the geography of the tale is already matched to the geography of calimshan and is about the formation of calimshan rivers and the spider swamp.
Most crucial of all however is that this version of the tale is penned on or in the skull of the most powerful servant of the dark three in calimshan (a huge dragon) and it was penned by the players of that dragon (achanatyrs priests).
I reckon this is an insult to the Dark Three, a tale twisted deliberately to show the Dark Three as greedy and grasping beings that desired power above all else, that betrayed each other for it, and damaged the world in their quest, but ultimately failed to break calimshan the nation and the people (the tale ends with a bit about love between father sky and mother earth).
Just my take on it however. I'm going ahead with old genie fight seals evil in mountain and dark three plus one find out about it and take its power in their quest for godhood.
One thing we do have to bear in mind here is that we are reading this with a lot of information that didn't exist at the time of its writing (for instance, Jhaamdath didn't exist at all, we didn't have dates for a lot of things, and a lot of dates in GHotR are questionable). Also, more importantly, they say that the myth is older than when the djinn ruled. So, at the time of this being written in our world, we didn't have a definitive date for when Calim and Memnon had ruled (in fact, Star of Cursrah I believe had some dates that makes the ones in GHotR questionable).
Bear in mind that in the below, I'm not looking necessarily at the original author's intent, because his intent may be entirely impossible after later works came along and made new "facts". We have to bear in mind that the author making this unclear means that other people may have unintentionally provided dates for things or have created new civilizations entirely that just invalidate everything. Also, bear in mind that these myths are that... myths... and some of this may have been twisted over time. For instance, another myth is that "Tigers have stripes because they lost some of their gold to the First Trader of Calimshan". I'm just trying to find a way to make the myth work with things we know.
It was PENNED before Thay, but not before the land containing Thay was inhabited. I only say Thay because that helps people realize where I'm talking about. At the time, they would have likely called it "The Priador" and it was a holding on the edges of Mulhorand.
If this was a myth spread from say the people of Unther (which would have been a culture involved if Father Sky is Enlil/Anu), then this could have passed from Unther to Jhaamdath as the two had contested regions (in the form of Chessenta and Chondath).
If this WAS following the death of Ra and Utu, it could explain the eclipse. That being said, if the death of Amaunator caused the sun to eclipse, that might also be the source time (for which we have no definitive date). Of course, IF some of my theories that Amaunator was Amon-Ra-At'ar are also true, then the death of all 3 sun gods may have been at this same time.
However, just to take a further step back on this and look a little deeper, its noted as being "from before the time of Genies". What I would take that to mean at least is that this is BEFORE THE TIME OF CALIMSHAN... and maybe before the time of Coramshan. So, this may be before the -5000's DR. Heck, it COULD be before the Sundering to the time when the sun went dark then.
Of course, some other odd twists on this could be that Bane's clergy don't know that this is in fact an origin story for the birth of Bane. For instance, was he born as a child of the Sea and one of the Four of Fear that's mentioned at the end? Did Bane's clergy recover this story because Bane didn't want knowledge of his birth well known.
This story also makes me wonder about the nature of another thing from Jhaamdath, in there being a god of anarchy named Valigan Thirdborn. So, was he the "thirdborn" child of the goddess of the Sea and the Four of Fear? Did Tyr come into the world so as to hunt down the children of the goddess of the Sea? Might we find out that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul all share a common mother in a sea goddess with their fathers being the Four in Fear? If so, Myrkul is hinted at being a Prince of Murghom in another later product, so he may have been a "God-King".
Going back to the idea of Valigan Thirdborn being one of the children and Tyr taking him out.... we have Tyr showing up, slaying this thirdborn child, and then just prior to this, a mass slaughter of life occurred by tidal wave that caused a society to fail and fall into anarchy. This tidal wave also slew a massive amount of sea life that didn't necessarily adhere to the goddess of the sea either and which was becoming very orderly. So, did Valigan have some hand in tricking the elven high mages to cause the tidal wave that destroys Jhaamdath? Did his possibly being a "child of the Sea" have some involvement with it working? This bringing about anarchy could serve his purposes, but it could also be seen as a massive sacrifice of life to a Sea God. It also resulted in the death of another goddess (Murdane).... in the "time before the dawn cataclysm". So, perhaps the reason the sun going dark had ties to the "dawn cataclysm".
Anyway, lots of possibilities that can be gleaned from this myth, and thanks for bringing it up.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Sep 2020 : 07:03:31
This was pre wotc days and is written by Steven schend so this was done carefully and with consideration.
I'm going to rule out Thay because the version of this tale was penned in -284 DR, long before Thay existed and before there was any real contact between Thay and Calimshan (Calimshan traded and warred with Jhaamdath but there is no indication their exposure went beyond that).
Further this was penned in -284 DR after the fall of Jhaamdath and Netheril, both nations of which abandoned their gods after the fall, so if any migrants headed south to calimshan they are unlikely to have retold stories about gods they hate.
Then there is the fact that the geography of the tale is already matched to the geography of calimshan and is about the formation of calimshan rivers and the spider swamp.
Most crucial of all however is that this version of the tale is penned on or in the skull of the most powerful servant of the dark three in calimshan (a huge dragon) and it was penned by the players of that dragon (achanatyrs priests).
I reckon this is an insult to the Dark Three, a tale twisted deliberately to show the Dark Three as greedy and grasping beings that desired power above all else, that betrayed each other for it, and damaged the world in their quest, but ultimately failed to break calimshan the nation and the people (the tale ends with a bit about love between father sky and mother earth).
Just my take on it however. I'm going ahead with old genie fight seals evil in mountain and dark three plus one find out about it and take its power in their quest for godhood.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Sep 2020 : 05:28:26
quote:
The four who should not be named are clearly modelled after Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul plus one extra. Given that we have the cruel one, the brother of true fear, the pain giver, and the warrior whose sword drips anger, i'm thinking cruel one is Bane, brother of true fear is Myrkul, the warrior whose sword drips is bhaal, and the pain giver i'm gonna guess at loviatar.
Alternately, "the cruel one" could be Shar, "the brother of true fear" could be Bhaal, "the warrior whose sword drips anger" could be Bane, "the pain giver" could be Myrkul.
Loviatar, Talos, Talona, Malar, Mask, Tempus, and Azuth are all possibilities.
As are Gruumsh, Lolth, Tiamat, and all the usual Big Name archfiend sorts.
If the myth is from Calimshan then it could involve genies, elementals, and the like.
And, being a muddled old myth, it could be referencing cities or nations or persons or families or whole races instead of personified deities. It might even be a story about celebrities from ancient Netheril, like Karsus and his peers.
The names or attributes of prominent liches, villains, heroes, and champions have a way of working into myths.
What else is described in the text passages surrounding this myth? WotC's writers have a tendency to progress predictably along topics in a way which lets context and placement reveal what is "unwritten" or obfuscated between the other things plainly stated. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Sep 2020 : 22:02:36
Wow, I was just asking last month where the myth of a 4th person with the dark three was.
If they wanted to challenge father sky, I'm hearing a sky god like Talos/Bhaelros/Kozah.... thanks for the heads up, I'm pulling up that document to read that now. Sadly I'm forgetting why I even wanted to see this a month ago.
EDIT: Yeah, Father sky appears to be a rain god, as he's heard in the thunder, lightning and brings rain.
What I'm reading is that one day the sun wasn't seen. This story is supposed to be old "before the genies reigned" (I'm taking that sentence to be uncertain, because the genies reigned in -6800 DR if they are talking about Calim and Memnon).
The Giver of Pain is called a he in this story. It does SOUND like Loviatar though. It also reads like the Giver of Pain is also known as "the One who is Known in Terror". This person is mentioned in the next paragraph as having been duped to "follow a phantom" into the forest. Except for the fact that the name doesn't match, this somewhat sounds like them rolling the skull that Malar goes off to chase in the knucklebones myth.
I actually don't know why, but I WANT to say that this myth is misplaced in Calimshan. A lot of this has more of a Thay area around the time of the Orcgate wars feel. Thaymount might be the mountain that gods fear. The sun not rising might be because two sun gods died. That area is also where in theory the gods were fighting the avatars of the orcs. The forest to the north with the phantom could be Rashemen before Rashemen and the witches ever existed (before even Raumathar and Narfell did). Again, I don't know why I'm saying this, but it just feels right. It also feels right that the fourth in that scenario might be Assuran of the three thunders. |
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