| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Aug 2020 : 16:41:08
Canonically, there are two knightly orders affiliated with the deity Tempus,Faerun-wide.
It would strike me as plausible if there were also some others, perhaps more regional and less bound to the direct authority of the organized clergy. Orders to which mercenary men-at-arms and adventurers could belong and earn the title of 'Knight' in a way that was respected among fellow fighting men, without directly serving a lord or always being employed by the church.
In real world terms, more like donats of the Knight Hospitaller or other religious martial orders than those full-time brothers sworn to chastity and poverty in the orders.
I'm specifically looking for orders in the Blade Kingdoms, Chondath and the Vilhon Reach, with some reputation in Chessenta and the Old Empires (if only because so many mercenaries from the west come there to fight) and maybe around the Moonsea (the armed forces of Moonsea cities number many men born around the Vilhon Reach).
Does it seem plausible that such orders might exist, for men who want to be associated with Tempus and might support the Order of the Steel Fang, but are not willing or able to serve in a religious order full time?
And does anyone have suggestions for the names and histories of a few such orders? |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 18:52:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's actually not too much of a legal ramification if it's just a name, I think -- especially in fantasy. David Eddings and Ed Greenwood have both used Ashaba, for example, and Ed himself points out that he inadvertently lifted the name Aglarond from Tolkien.
And fantasy and sci-fi, it's really easy for people to independently come up with the same names. I thought up the name Tarl before I ever read a Realms novel, and I was seriously disappointed when I saw a character with that name in that first Phlan book.
Yeah, its not so much the name, but the similarity in use for the name as well.... i.e. Tempus god of war.... Tempus warrior-servant/avatar of the god of war. I've lifted many a name from some story I've read, but its not very often that the two share a lot of similarities (for instance, my main NPC's/sometime PC name Sleyvas actually came from thieve's world as well, but the two entities aren't similar).
That being said, not extremely important. I just know that later on Tempus in the stories becomes more and more "mystical", and I feel like the idea that THAT character going on to advance to godhood like so many other deities did makes sense. He just did it somewhere or some TIME else (because hell, for all we know, we could easily fit thieve's world within the realms at some earlier time. It could easily work down in Zakhara or on some nameless continent).
The main point was that its worth looking at the organization of mercenaries that he was involved with (The Stepsons) for an idea of one of these groups that Icelander was interested in. Its not a perfect mold, and perhaps more of a mercenary group, but the idea works for the feel of the group matching the regions he's interested in. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 18:30:58
There's actually not too much of a legal ramification if it's just a name, I think -- especially in fantasy. David Eddings and Ed Greenwood have both used Ashaba, for example, and Ed himself points out that he inadvertently lifted the name Aglarond from Tolkien.
And fantasy and sci-fi, it's really easy for people to independently come up with the same names. I thought up the name Tarl before I ever read a Realms novel, and I was seriously disappointed when I saw a character with that name in that first Phlan book. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 15:29:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Tempus is in "Down to Earth Divinity", from Dragon 54, dated October 1981.
Thieves World is a little older, 1978 -- so I guess the question is, when did Tempus first appear in Thieves World?
Tales from the Vulgar Unicorn, the short story "Vashanka's Minion" is by Janet Morris, and that's from prior to the Down to Earth Divinity article by at least a year (copyright 1980, not sure WHEN in 1980). Janet Morris created Tempus I do believe (or at least she used him a LOT), and I think this is the first mention of him (confirmed that he is in this short story just now by opening the book and he's mentioned in the first page of it). Vashanka is the god that Tempus serves, and Tempus is portrayed as something "like" a minor avatar of the deity (something more than a priest but less than a direct avatar, something like a paladin to a degree without any of the nobility but some ability to affect the god itself and not just be a servant).
I honestly though wonder if we'd ever get a true answer to this question because of the "legal" ramifications it might bring up. I don't blame them if they hedge it. That being said, Tempus isn't a god in said series, he's only some kind of being with very strong ties to the god. Still, when you read up on Tempus, the two are very similar, and I noted that right after the products came out we also started seeing the use of the name Tempos instead of Tempus in a lot of things.
Just talking about this made me pull my hard back copy of the first three books off the shelf. I think I will reread them and back burner a lot of this other garbage I've been reading. This was at least ONE of the original major shared world settings by any author (others being like Conan, but those authors tended to have less contact and were less tending to use each other's characters outside of Conan and maybe a few other characters). In fact, I'd go so far as to say that this was the FIRST MAJOR shared world setting ever done, and its popularity may have helped FR break through.
EDIT: Also, for those looking for gay references in books (admittedly that's not me..... not hurt in seeing it, just not one to go LOOKING for it) this series does go into homosexuality to some degree. More modern works are probably a lot more explicit, but this is the time when I know a lot of this type of stuff was first seeing light of day (I believe it was Mercedes Lackey who also had similar stuff with her heralds of Valdemar books). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 15:26:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Tempus is in "Down to Earth Divinity", from Dragon 54, dated October 1981.
Thieves World is a little older, 1978 -- so I guess the question is, when did Tempus first appear in Thieves World?
At some point in 1981, with "A Man and His God". |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 15:08:52
Tempus is in "Down to Earth Divinity", from Dragon 54, dated October 1981.
Thieves World is a little older, 1978 -- so I guess the question is, when did Tempus first appear in Thieves World? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 14:21:48
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I like the Order of the War God's Helm (Order of the War Helm). I would drop the chivalrous part because I don't see many of his followers being chivalrous, at least not in some regards (bravery and other combat oriented areas sure, not necessarily in regards to being overly courteous, but that's just my opinion - I see followers of Tempus being more 'rough and tumble' types with followers of Red Knight being more likely to take on the other aspects of chivalry).
This is more my view of Tempus. Honestly, one take I have on "Tempus" is that he is actually a risen mortal from the Thieve's World novels. That Tempus was a mortal warrior in service to a god of war that somewhat resembles Ramman (his name was Vashanka and he was a god of war and storms, with lightning as a symbol). He had some kind of link to the god in the novels that was more than that of a priest. Other war gods were also trying to tempt him to them. I honestly feel like this was the inspiration for "Tempus" being the war god of the realms as many of us were reading this material around the same time as the realms was being released, and I've wondered at times if Tempus was an Ed addition or a TSR addition (and did he have another god by another name in the war god position, or was this separated out such that a being such as Talos might have held war as well as destruction to make them more relevant).
With that in mind, it might be worth looking at some source material from that product.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sacred_Band_of_Stepsons
As a sidenote, I personally wish I had known as much about real world history and religion when I read these as I do now, as I bet there's a lot of hidden seeds in the old thieve's world stuff that I just didn't realize when I read them in my teens and early 20's. For those that want an original feel for what the idea of the realms was like originally, I think this is a good series to read. I still think it fits a lot of places like original Thay, the Old Empires, Calimshan, Dambrath, etc... I'm finding myself inclined to revisit a lot of things (old shows, as I'm rewatching battlestar galactica, etc...) and maybe it might be time to reread this series. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 11:24:51
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I like the Stalwart Order of Warriors. If it was near Cormyr, how about The Crimson Cavaliers? Or, you could just go by a very simple name but have the group be the most feared fighting force in the Vilhon Reach. Say, something like The Legion. Obviously, the leader(s) would have to be "colorful" and unique. Say one guy (or gal) almost like the Monty Python Black Knight only he has a couple artificial limbs (he just wouldn't stop fighting even after losing a limb or two until the enemy was defeated so he was "rewarded" with some artificial limbs so he can keep fighting).
I was thinking about this in the context of knightly orders or religious organizations, which, true to the doctrine of Tempus, would have companions/serjeants, donat knights or knight-brothers serving in many mercenary companies, perhaps even on opposite sides. That seems very plausible for Blade Kingdoms, Chessenta and Chondath, all regions where allegiances shift rapidly, mercenaries carry out warfare for causes that don't necessarily matter to them and the valor, honour and renown of the participants might matter more to them than victory or defeat in any single engagement.
For example, I imagine the Order of the Bloody Gauntlet to send out knights, clerics and entourage into warzones (mostly in the Blade Kingdoms, Condath and Sespech, but sometimes into western Chessenta, especially near the Blade Kingdom borders) to ensure that the wars of laws are followed with respect to the wounded and non-combatants, that the injured are treated and that the blessing of the Lord of Battles is bestowed upon those wounded in honourable warfare.
Individual lay worshipers, knights or clergy would rarely serve the Order full time, but they would rather pledge a month, a campaigning season or perhaps a longer time to the service, to atone for someone or perhaps because they no longer saw any purpose to their violent lives and wanted to renew their commitment to the Lord of Battles.
Those who received knighthood for serving the Order of the Bloody Gauntlet could use it all their lives, even as serving a secular lord or fighting as a mercenary, but they also swore to take no contracts where they would be bound to violate the laws of war or mistreat the wounded, and to remonstrate with any commander who did not respect the law of the Lord of Battles on the subject.
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| Icelander |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 09:56:55
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I like the Order of the War God's Helm (Order of the War Helm). I would drop the chivalrous part because I don't see many of his followers being chivalrous, at least not in some regards (bravery and other combat oriented areas sure, not necessarily in regards to being overly courteous, but that's just my opinion - I see followers of Tempus being more 'rough and tumble' types with followers of Red Knight being more likely to take on the other aspects of chivalry).
'Chivalry' originally meant the men raised to arms who brought warhorses with them. The root is in 'cheval' ('horse'), nothing to do with courtly love or troubadours.
That being said, Tempus is explicitly chivalrous in many ways. His dogma is not about winning at any cost. It's about respecting any foe, following the laws of war, never using dishonorable stratagems to win, etc. In fact, if followers of Tempus follow his dogma, they'd be a lot more chivalrous than any historical knight.
Most of all, it's about what a culture views as the ideal of warriors. In a society where men are part-time raiders, like the Savage North, the kind of religious honors and ceremonies they invent will match that. In a society like the Blade Kingdoms and the Vilhon Reach, where armoured men on good warhorses are the highest expression of martial might, 'chivalry' will be an important attribute for any warrrior. Whether they have it or not, they'll make a claim to it.
Because claiming chivalry is about claiming a status as the most important and most socially important warriors in that society. So, having men with good reputation and credit acknowledge a successful mercenary as their peer in a chivalric order is part of that mercenary being able to claim the status of a 'Knight'.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Assuming there aren't any orders listed in F&A (but I'm sure there are) have looked at the old module I14 Swords of the Iron Legion or FR15 Gold and Glory? Either one of them might detail a group dedicated to Tempus (although they both likely detail mercenary companies more than knightly orders).
Come to think of it, I think we need Ed to publish a supplement at the DMsguild detailing knightly orders of the Realms.
There's Order of the Broken Blade, which is effectively a pension and retirement institution for those injured in serving Tempus, and then there's the Order of the Steel Fang, elite clergy and warriors in direct service to the church.
Both fine and important organizations, but as the text say that they are two examples of the many orders dedicated to Tempus, I rather think that my campaign needs more. After all, you can't have knights without some mechanism of acknowledging them as such and in the mercenary societies of the Blade Kingdoms, Chondath and Chessenta (all of which lack central government authority), orders of knighthood under the auspices of respected warlike deities seem like a natural outgrowth. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 04:16:09
I like the Order of the War God's Helm (Order of the War Helm). I would drop the chivalrous part because I don't see many of his followers being chivalrous, at least not in some regards (bravery and other combat oriented areas sure, not necessarily in regards to being overly courteous, but that's just my opinion - I see followers of Tempus being more 'rough and tumble' types with followers of Red Knight being more likely to take on the other aspects of chivalry).
Assuming there aren't any orders listed in F&A (but I'm sure there are) have looked at the old module I14 Swords of the Iron Legion or FR15 Gold and Glory? Either one of them might detail a group dedicated to Tempus (although they both likely detail mercenary companies more than knightly orders).
Come to think of it, I think we need Ed to publish a supplement at the DMsguild detailing knightly orders of the Realms. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 01:44:02
I like the Stalwart Order of Warriors. If it was near Cormyr, how about The Crimson Cavaliers? Or, you could just go by a very simple name but have the group be the most feared fighting force in the Vilhon Reach. Say, something like The Legion. Obviously, the leader(s) would have to be "colorful" and unique. Say one guy (or gal) almost like the Monty Python Black Knight only he has a couple artificial limbs (he just wouldn't stop fighting even after losing a limb or two until the enemy was defeated so he was "rewarded" with some artificial limbs so he can keep fighting). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Aug 2020 : 20:13:21
Any of these names seem good or inspire any other ideas?
Most Chivalrous Order of the War God's Helm (Order of the War Helm)
Stalwart Order of Warriors
Brotherhood of Battle
Order of the Bloody Gauntlet (Knights of the Gauntlet)
Illustrious Order of the Foehammer's Field (Knights of the Battlefield)
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| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 26 Aug 2020 : 17:15:28
Some mercenary companies have widespread reputations like the Flaming Fists or a really good local rep like the Red Ravens. Now, the Red Ravens behave in a certain way to make sure they don't lose the contracts they have with Cormyr. That would give them a certain level of respect with the Purple Dragons and any other fighters in Cormyr. I suppose, there could be one or more mercenary companies that would be the go-to groups when the church of Tempus needs an instant army. Like the Red Ravens, they would closely follow the teachings of Tempus so they won't lose that coveted relationship with the church. That would also generate respect with the members of the Order of the Steel Fang and may actually be the means that the Order gains recruits by seeing how someone does in that mercenary company. |
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