| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 18:13:03
Looking for any lore and rules on magic that does not access the Weave. Other than Ed's general statements that place magic, table magic, blood magic, etc. exists, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of concrete lore available or how such systems work rules-wise. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Nov 2024 : 14:48:29
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Would it be reasonable to assert any deity can grant Weave-independent spells and always could so? The Weave merely made spell-granting easier. So by that logic, any divine spell could be a non-Weave spell.
In theory, yes. The "class" of these spellcasters in theory might need to be different (that being said, there are clerics using "weave equivalent".... operating systems... in other worlds and even within this world (Shar had the shadow weave, Lolth was trying to develop something called the demon weave which I know very little about). Just as a for example, on DMs Guild there's a product for an alternate divine caster called a "priest" (link below). The idea is that they MUST gather their spells through sacrifice at idols relevant to their deity OR their pantheon. The higher the level of spell, the more extravagant/large the idol required. So, getting higher level spells restored while in a dungeon is problematic, and even mid level spells require a lot of effort.
While I think this ruleset needs work, I think its a good foundation and have envisioned it being used in my own stories for civilizations transferring to Abeir.
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/192760/Priestess-Ancient-World-Divine-Class
Regarding Lolth's demon weave, I rely solely on what's written up on the wiki.... but in comparison to what I wrote up previously, I'd note it as "Lolth tried to take over some of Mystra's processing servers, but she needed to provide her own power sources "aka weave anchors" to fully power those processing servers that she was able hack into and gain shared admin access for .... she never got them powered by her own sources, and before she managed to obtain full control she got locked out of the servers by Mystra's admin account... and Mystra's forces seized control of the power sources that Lolth was setting up".
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Demon_Weave |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 19 Nov 2024 : 21:12:28
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Would it be reasonable to assert any deity can grant Weave-independent spells and always could so? The Weave merely made spell-granting easier. So by that logic, any divine spell could be a non-Weave spell.
-The slippery-slope of the existence of alternatives. |
| DoveArrow |
Posted - 19 Nov 2024 : 01:27:59
There are a few different forms of accessing magic in the Forgotten Realms that are canon, that are supported mechanically, and don't involve the Weave. Here are a few of the most commonly referenced forms.
-Divine: Your access to magic is channeled through your deity.
-Psionic: Your access to magic comes from your mind.
-Shadow: Your access to magic is channeled through the spaces and voids in the Weave.
There are other sources of magic that Ed Greenwood has named over the years, but they aren't generally supported mechanically. He discusses that in the following video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXFbgsFy1Xc |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 15 Nov 2024 : 21:29:58
Would it be reasonable to assert any deity can grant Weave-independent spells and always could so? The Weave merely made spell-granting easier. So by that logic, any divine spell could be a non-Weave spell. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Nov 2024 : 14:18:23
to add to this... someone will say "but Mystra banned all of Cyric's worshippers from the weave".
The quickest answer to that is "Yeah, because he didn't know HOW to reach into another source like other older, more experienced deities would know how to do... because he'd been a deity for all of a few years"
Then they will say "but X resource says that Mystra can do this"... and the best answer there should be "yep, she can deny them access to THE WEAVE .... so then they have to use something else".
The best way I've used to actually describe the weave is comparing it to an computer operating system with applications.... not necessarily as a power source as many think. Now the weave also HAS power sources (think Uninterruptable Power Supplies that hold a storage of magic energy that they constantly renew and feed to Mystra), and these are known as weave anchors. Some weave anchors are mortal (such as Chosen), and some are material (places, artifacts, etc...). But each "spell" is in essence an app tailored to her O/S. Thus, some spells/apps work differently in the realms than they might in other worlds. Her spells/apps are also able to work in many instances on other O/S's if someone knows how to call on those O/S's (for instance, accessing the O/S that Greyhawk mages may use), such that someone coming to the realms from say Greyhawk may be able to cast the "fireball app" by calling upon the "Greyhawk O/S" instead of the "Weave O/S". Then each "spell app" falls under the control of a consortium of deities who can lay claim to "that sort of magic"... for instance, Milil, Oghma, Finder, Mystra, and music deities of other pantheons might all be able to control some exclusively bardic spell... and these SAME deities can have input on a bardic spell that's also on other spell lists (for instance cure light wounds). You can picture all of this working without having to actually spell out all the rules for such and compare it to a change management process in our real world, especially since anyone that has ever dealth with a change review board will also know that their rules change, their rules are subjective based on individuals, and oftentimes the person approving changes don't even know what they are really approving. This madness is magic, and yet they try to "disguise" it as orderly, much like real world change management tries to hide behind a veneer of "we're the proponents of order" while being some of the most chaotic groups anyone can imagine.
So, how do we picture spellcasting working in this instance? The "weave anchors" are essentially the power sources running the "Mystra computers". The Mystra computer(s) is one of many servers running on behind a VPN/FIREWALL acting as a separate "corporation" on the "Interweave"... and they use a cool O/S name of The Weave which confuses people who hook into the "Interweave". These Mystra computer(s) act as a "server" for "remote apps/spells" that individuals "activate" via spellcasting. The spellcaster has also hooked into "the interweave" much like a user at home getting an IP address from their Internet Service Provider. If they activate the "remote app/Spell" with a "header" that says "go to the Mystra Computer" to process your "formula/app/program". The spell goes there to the "Mystra computer" for instance for the "fireball app", and the "Mystra Computer" reaches out to some source of fire energy, formulates it in the correct pattern, and uses the spellcaster's focus to translate the energy where they are directing it.
In this whole idea, the spellcaster is connecting to the "Interweave" to perform their "job".... if we add another layer into this and include VPN's and firewalls... a spellcaster accessing Mystra's weave from home could be seen as connecting through a VPN to "Mystra Inc" via a VPN. There is however a competitor also hooked up with its own VPN for people to work through known as "Shar Inc", and another one known as "Mulhorandi Southern Magic Inc", and another known as "Greyhawk Inc". There are in fact thousands of these "corporations" on the Interweave, and some "spells/apps" absolutely do not work with certain "corporations" and can't make it past their firewall/VPN... much less their internal computers.
As you can see, taking our modern internet and comparing it to how this "functionality" works makes for a very good way to compartmentalize all of this. For instance, what happens when "Mystra dies".... well, that would be equivalent to a company on our internet like Google or Apple suddenly losing all of its internet presence..... and you're fine if you aren't using google or apple apps. Meanwhile, someone may introduce an insidious "virus" that infects the "servers" at google, apple, or "Mystra Inc" and when this happens their apps may act flaky but not die entirely.
There may be "weave anchors" that get their power from multiple sources, such that "suddenly" all of the "power" running the "Mystra Computers" goes away... The servers go down. Then one of the weave anchors automatically turns on its "gas powered generator", and suddenly the server reboots with all the settings from its last save... possibly different than the way it was running before the reboot. |
| Naralex |
Posted - 13 Nov 2024 : 13:23:59
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader Darden,
Thank you for your reply!
quote:
Look at the first quote you made and realize you are ONLY seeing what you want to see: quote:
Mortals cannot directly shape raw magic. Instead, most who wield magic make use of the Weave. The Weave is the manifestation of raw magic, a kind of interface between the will of a spellcaster and the stuff of raw magic.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.55)
There is no small amount of irony in there. Out of that entire rebuttal, you respond to one sentence of a quote alone. That point you are making is specifically addressed in my counter-claim throughout my rebuttal, which is heavily predicated upon the notion of "ever-present energies."
Effectively, it is evidence suppression, or colloquially referred to as "cherry-picking": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking#:~:text=Cherry%20picking%2C%20suppressing%20evidence%2C%20or,that%20may%20contradict%20that%20position.
quote:
Your whole argument is consistently locked in your own thinking and not SEEING what others are writing. MOST who wield magic...not ALL who use magic.
I am quite glad to address this rebuttal from you as well. Thank you for the opportunity.
The notion of quote:
MOST who wield magic...not ALL who use magic.
was addressed by me in identifying that the OTHERS are not accessing another structure of magic, they are accessing the same platform of magic, using different forms.
I'd definitely interested in hearing your thoughts on that.
Best regards,
I had to turn to the dark art of necromancy because I feel that this is an important topic that deserves a resolution. I have personally been researching the question of whether magic can be accessed through means other than the weave for a couple of days now, and this is how I discovered this thread.
The weave is merely a method, an interface to tap into the raw, ever-present energies, but it is by no means synonymous with those energies.
Like you yourself mentioned in the very beginning of your argument, Great Reader Cpthero2, referencing what Ed said -
"the Weave is the predominant and "most correct" (and thus, most powerful) means of harnessing natural energies"
To further reinforce - this is Ed's video dive-in topic, and he says explicitly at around 6:30 mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXFbgsFy1Xc&t=399s
That there are other ways of accessing magic. Being that this video is from 2023 and coming straight from the creator of FR, this is a definitive and hopefully final ruling on the matter.
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 07 Nov 2020 : 18:13:39
Senior Scribe TheIriaeban,
I forgot to mention that I very much liked your consideration of garnering power from some other process of harnessing that energy. In fact, in another scroll I was just commenting on [Earth's Similarities to the Realms, http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23657&whichpage=2], I was commenting on how cross-pollination, or rather the lack of it, was interesting. This just made me think if gaining access to magic from another location might be possible? That would be a huge issue with magic in the Realms for sure, from a power position perspective.
Best regards,
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 23:13:14
Great Reader Darden,
Thank you for your reply!
quote:
Look at the first quote you made and realize you are ONLY seeing what you want to see: quote:
Mortals cannot directly shape raw magic. Instead, most who wield magic make use of the Weave. The Weave is the manifestation of raw magic, a kind of interface between the will of a spellcaster and the stuff of raw magic.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.55)
There is no small amount of irony in there. Out of that entire rebuttal, you respond to one sentence of a quote alone. That point you are making is specifically addressed in my counter-claim throughout my rebuttal, which is heavily predicated upon the notion of "ever-present energies."
Effectively, it is evidence suppression, or colloquially referred to as "cherry-picking": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking#:~:text=Cherry%20picking%2C%20suppressing%20evidence%2C%20or,that%20may%20contradict%20that%20position.
quote:
Your whole argument is consistently locked in your own thinking and not SEEING what others are writing. MOST who wield magic...not ALL who use magic.
I am quite glad to address this rebuttal from you as well. Thank you for the opportunity.
The notion of quote:
MOST who wield magic...not ALL who use magic.
was addressed by me in identifying that the OTHERS are not accessing another structure of magic, they are accessing the same platform of magic, using different forms.
I'd definitely interested in hearing your thoughts on that.
Best regards,
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 22:50:33
Look at the first quote you made and realize you are ONLY seeing what you want to see:
quote:
Mortals cannot directly shape raw magic. Instead, most who wield magic make use of the Weave. The Weave is the manifestation of raw magic, a kind of interface between the will of a spellcaster and the stuff of raw magic.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.55)
Your whole argument is consistently locked in your own thinking and not SEEING what others are writing. MOST who wield magic...not ALL who use magic.
After that your argument is moot. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 21:54:14
Great Reader Darden,
quote:
No, what Ed said was:
"the Weave is the predominant and "most correct" (and thus, most powerful) means of harnessing natural energies: in other words, it is magic but it's not the ONLY magic (as evidenced by the Shadow Weave and other, less-powerful alternatives to the Weave: table magic, pluma magic, etc.)."
That isn't hard to understand and doesn't leave room for your view.
I can certainly appreciate your point there; however, it appears there is some possible conflict between what is put out in the 3rd edition FRCS, and some of what is being put out by Ed as well such as in the statement quoted above. The sheer volume of debate about the subject appears to demonstrate that this isn't quite yet, "settled law" as it were. ;) However, I do feel points made, such as yours Great Reader Darden, due add to the discourse, such that mayhaps some day (possibly today even), this will get "figured" out.
Looking at material a bit deeper now, and taking some excerpts from it, is really bringing about some unusual questions for me. I'll start by laying out some points before I write the complete argument.
Substantive Points
Raw Magic
quote:
Mortals cannot directly shape raw magic. Instead, most who wield magic make use of the Weave. The Weave is the manifestation of raw magic, a kind of interface between the will of a spellcaster and the stuff of raw magic.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.55)
What I find interesting here is that first, as stated, the Weave is "raw magic." So, a category to acknowledge and set-aside for a moment. Also, an absolute proclamation that raw magic cannot be accessed by mortals, appears to answer and refute the hypothesis by Great Reader Dallison on 20 Aug 20 @ 1604, that, quote:
After reading the avatar crisis recently, myrkuls super epic rituals never seemed to fail and it was clear he was using the power of souls to perform these magics. Seems to me that incarnum (soul magic) does not use the weave, and there are places where souls gather that they can break through a weak point in the planes to travel to the outer planes.
I believe the answer as to why my claim is valid is because Myrkul, though in avatar form, was not mortal, and that is why Myrkul could interface with the Weave, or "raw magic" as it were. Again, just another point to acknowledge and set-aside as I continue pressing forward with my argument.
Also, I left out other quotations of material from page 55 of the 3rd Ed. FRCS as the implication about casting/using spells it that someone is choosing to use the Weave for that, and I want to provide credence to the argument that other forms of magic exist apart from the Weave, to fully explore this hypothesis.
Evaluative Analysis of the Weave and Shadow Weave
quote:
Open any three books describing the magic and mage lore of Faerun, and you're apt to find three conflicting accounts of the origins and true nature of magic.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.56)
This is a great point to reference from Ed as the author, because it is a predicate for the confusing nature that is facilitating this very discussion within this scroll, and is also apriori to the points made by Ed in a few paragraphs.
quote:
Hear now the truth of things, as best it is understood. To speak simply, all known worlds and planes swarm with ever-present energies. Large and small, free-flowing or bound by physical barriers or magical effects (themselves merely energies shaped and designed to restrict or hold other energies); these surges and dissipations of energy give light and life and movement to everything. They are the stuff of life itself, and they would be present even if all living and once-living things on Toril were stripped away to bare rocks.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.56)
A fundamentally crucial element of this inductive analysis is that all "known worlds and planes" have those "ever-present energies." That acknowledgement alone means that whatever is to come by evidence of Ed (as the creator of the Realms) applies everywhere in this case, in terms of Realms lore.
quote:
What some folk refer to as magic and wizards speak of as the Art is the means by which some beings can call on the ever-present energies and wield them to create effects.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.56)
Again, just laying substantive points here for the argument as it will be formalized. The warrant (using the Toulmin mode of argumentation term) in this argument is that "energies" in the most recent quote above, are related to the "ever-present energies" from the previous quote. That necessarily relates the "ever-present energies" when "wizards speak of the Art" to that same energy that is present in "all known worlds and planes."
The clear implication here is that those "ever-present energies" are inseparable from the Weave, which would necessarily mean that the Weave is in fact everywhere, and is a moniker for how those of the Realms perceive the "ever-present energies."
quote:
Many types of magic—rune magic, shadow magic (not to be confused with the Shadow Weave), gem magic, elemental magic, even the elven high magic of old—have been spoken of down the years, but these are all merely different processes or paths to the same mastery of natural energies.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.56)
This statement appears to be fundamental with the etc., indicating those additional instances of the "ever-present energies" that though may be manifested in a manner so as to appear different, end up being in fact, "different processes or paths to the same mastery of natural energies." Those "natural energies" again, appear to be inductively related to the "ever-present energies."
quote:
She miscalculated. The Weave collapsed so completely that Shar not only failed to gather up its fraying threads, she also lost control over the Shadow Weave.(4th Ed. FRCG, pg.50)
I think of this like matter and dark matter since the belief is that quote:
If the Weave is a loose mesh permeating reality, the Shadow Weave is the pattern formed by the negative space between the Weave's strands.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.58)
It is verifiable by canon that the Weave and Shadow Weave are related based on what happened, inductively, so I argue that it can be said that the "ever-present energies" are as linked to the Shadow Weave as they are a part of the Weave. In essence, though the Shadow Weave is an "alternative conduit" (3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.58)
Alternative Forms of Magic
The alternative forms of magic that have been referenced, such as, but not limited to, "table magic, pluma magic, etc." appear to inductively fall within the range of considerations presented by Ed when he said, quote:
the Weave is the predominant and "most correct" (and thus, most powerful) means of harnessing natural energies: in other words, it is magic but it's not the ONLY magic (as evidenced by the Shadow Weave and other, less-powerful alternatives to the Weave: table magic, pluma magic, etc.).(So Saith Ed, Jul - Sep 2005)
However, there is more to this than I believe is initially obvious. First, Ed also said in that same "So Saith Ed" quote:
First and foremost, all gamers should remember that none of the information about the gods of the Realms can truly be trusted: it's a collection of what mortals imperfectly understand and can visualize (muddied by the 'pet theories' of many sages and priests, both current and down the centuries) about divine beings who may or may not impart accurate information to their worshippers (as the power of deities is related to the number and strength of their worshippers, it's best to think of deities as somewhat akin to used-car salesmen in the real world, presenting everything to make themselves look good or at least vitally necessary and as important as possible). So arguments about specifics of the gods (as opposed to their mortal churches and faithful) are essentially futile, because none of the data those arguing use can be trusted. Priests of Mystra often say that "Mystra IS the Weave." The priests are correct: Mystra is the Weave, and if there was another deity controlling magic, whatever precise system of harnessing natural energies (whether it was called the Weave or not) would be (at the least) subtly different from the Weave as Faerűnians know it today.
This is important, because what Ed does by making this proclamation is lay down the rule that nothing is deductive. It will be inductive at most.
So, for anyone at all, to declare that it "...doesn't leave room for your view" should review Ed statement from "So Saith Ed, Jul - Sep 2005", and consider that there is no deductive analysis here, at best it is going to be inductive, and therefore, such decree's are "essentially futile".
Maztican Magic: Hishna/Pluma Magic
quote:
The two forms of magic are the characteristic powers of Maztica. Although very different from each other, each has its roots in the natural aspects of the True World things of light and life and air, in the case of pluma: things of sharpness and scale and venom, for hishna.(Maztica Campaign Set, pg.71)
When it is said there are two forms of magic, it is evident that by forms, it is meant that "Many types of magic" (3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.56) also includes hishna and pluma magic. Going off of this assumption, quote:
Spells of pluma and hishna interact with other AD&D® game powers just as does normal magic.(Maztica Campaign Set, pg.73)
inductively implies that hishna and pluma magic operate from the very same "ever-present energies" that Ed wrote about.
Additional Evidence
quote:
1) Yes. Blood magic (censored out of the published Realms due to TSR's fears that there'd be gory real-world experiments, and lawsuits), candle magic, table magic, and more. I deliberately wanted magic to be so vast and varied that even "rules-lawyer" players...#Realmslore 2) ..couldn't remember it all at the gaming table, which would lead to a better roleplaying experience, as opposed to metagaming. (Memorizing spell details, limits of magic, and so on, to "beat" the DM and "win" the game. There was too much of that in early D&D play.) #Realmslore (@TheEdVerse, March 9th, 2020, https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1237215843815165957" target="_blank">https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FQaiwCP4OtIJ:https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1237215843815165957 &cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
The clear implication of Ed's statement here is that these "alternative" forms of magic were to keep things mysterious and to most importantly defeat the "rules-lawyer." These forms (please see my reference to those above in the manner they are references) are clearly part and parcel of the "ever-present energies."
_______________________________
Argument
With my substantive points about raw magic, evaluation of the weave/shadow weave, and alternative forms of magic laid out above, I make my argument.
To begin with, at the beginning when I was making points, I identified a good point by Great Reader Darden, and myself wrote, quote:
Also, I left out other quotations of material from page 55 of the 3rd Ed. FRCS as the implication about casting/using spells it that someone is choosing to use the Weave for that, and I want to provide credence to the argument that other forms of magic exist apart from the Weave, to fully explore this hypothesis.
In evaluating this after I've completed laying out my points, I feel that this point I made was irrelevant. I wanted to freely and without bias present arguments for access to magic by alternative means, but I standby by the evidence I have gathered.
I believe that there is no way for spellcasters to go without the Weave or Shadow Weave. The evidence laid out above indicates that the concept of "ever-present energies" is the ultimate point of connection between all forms of magic, whether that be hishna, pluma, The Art, The Power, table magic, etc. If everything is connected together by the same energies, then what appears to be the real difference is naming conventions, not a fundamental and different system of magic all together.
Declarations
- If I disagree with you, state your points are invalid, unsound, valid, sound, etc., I am not attacking you. These terms are common parlance in a more formal manner of argumentation, and that is exactly how I mean it: I take no umbrage here.
- Points, hypotheses, declarations, perspectives, analysis, or any other form of mechanism that has been used to facilitate an academic discussion on these matters before us should be taken in that vein, please. I have a great, abiding affection for rigorous debate and ultimately seek to enjoy that experience, alongside the always sought "right" answer.
- I am as stated above, approaching this discussion (formal argument) with a neutral perspective. I take no umbrage with anyone if they disagree, agree, or wholly discount anything or everything I have said. Please afford me the same courtesy, as I take no offense by arduous discourse; rather, I seek it out, in an academically polite manner
- Please (as a request) address my points, point by point, by utilizing the quote function when engaging in the argument. It makes it enormously easier to parse through the large amount of material when I can easily relate a comment, rebuttal, etc. directly to the point at hand.
As always, I look forward to any rebuttals, comments, replies, etc.
Best regards,
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 16:49:26
No, what Ed said was:
"the Weave is the predominant and "most correct" (and thus, most powerful) means of harnessing natural energies: in other words, it is magic but it's not the ONLY magic (as evidenced by the Shadow Weave and other, less-powerful alternatives to the Weave: table magic, pluma magic, etc.)."
That isn't hard to understand and doesn't leave room for your view.
Edit:
Found earlier in this scroll is the also ignored information from Ed:
quote:
@AenastF
If Mystra limited the way The Weave can be used (Mystra's Ban on magic), theoretically, could some Sorcerer (or some other specific spellcaster) that do not rely on The Weave as their source of magic, cast higher than 9th lvl spells as they don't Weave?
@TheEdVerse
Yes and no.
In theory, a spellcaster that doesn’t use the Weave to work magic could elude Mystra’s Ban, BUT we wouldn’t know the ‘level’ of their spells, because arcane spells (ranked in levels) use the Weave.
#Realmslore
Bold print my point: spellcasters can go without using the Weave. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 16:35:47
Senior Scribe TheIriaeban,
Ah yes. Perfect. I appreciate that correction. Thank you!
quote:
Given the list of magic in the 3e FRCS that is specified to use the Weave, it may be reasonable to think that any type of magic not listed, such as blood magic, does not use the Weave.
I do get your point there regarding someone looking at it like that, but at the same time, I think the FRCS and Ed made it pretty clear. If another form of manipulation comes along later, it doesn't matter as it is using the same process/path to make it happen.
Best regards,
|
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 16:21:19
The 3e FRCS clearly states that rune magic uses the Weave on page 55. Prior to that, the 2e Giantcraft book is what introduced rune magic to the realms so it could be that it was intended to be separate but was put under The Weave in 3e to avoid confusion. However, Ed has said this in So Sayeth Ed Part 7 pg 98:
"the Weave is the predominant and "most correct" (and thus, most powerful) means of harnessing natural energies: in other words, it is magic but it's not the ONLY magic (as evidenced by the Shadow Weave and other, less-powerful alternatives to the Weave: table magic, pluma magic, etc.)."
Given the list of magic in the 3e FRCS that is specified to use the Weave, it may be reasonable to think that any type of magic not listed, such as blood magic, does not use the Weave. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 05:45:16
Senior Scribe TheIriaeban,
My apologies for the delayed response. I meant to rudeness by it: I usually try to respond swiftly! :)
quote:
I think that settles it. The acknowledgement in differentiating the Shadow Weave from the regular Weave, and then going on to demonstrate that different forms of magic (as identified) are merely "different processes", lays out the fact that it all leads to "the same mastery of natural energies."
quote:
That really doesn't make sense for rune magic. Rune magic was given to the giants by Modrons. Since The Weave is limited to Toril, Modrons would use magic that was not dependent on The Weave because they would also intact with Oerth and the other non-FR primes and their magic would have to work there as is.
Sorry if I am missing something here, but I think I am missing something:
Master Arcanamach stated, quote:
Looking for any lore and rules on magic that does not access the Weave.
If rune magic being given to the giants by Modrons, and Modrons quote:
...use magic that was not dependent on the Weave...
, wouldn't that put rune magic back on that list then? [I'm hoping a few shots into my Scotch hasn't caused me to overlook something here, haha].
Best regards,
|
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 23 Sep 2020 : 14:41:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Which is why I think of it as more of a power grid, rather than anything else.
-Same, that's why I find the concept of magic not utilizing the Weave (or Shadow Weave) so problematic.
If the Weave is a power grid, the Shadow Weave is a bunch of old extension cords plugged in at odd places -- still capable of providing power, and even able to reach places the grid doesn't, but those cables just can't carry as much power.
If it were extension cords, it is directly connected. I would see it like a wireless charger. It gets energy from the grid without being physically connected to it. That way, if the grid goes down, it goes down, too. Also, there may not be a plug in the area (dead magic zone) but you can still get power because you don't need to physically touch the grid to get power. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 23 Sep 2020 : 14:36:19
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Which is why I think of it as more of a power grid, rather than anything else.
-Same, that's why I find the concept of magic not utilizing the Weave (or Shadow Weave) so problematic.
Why? We have people that are "off the grid" now using solar, wind, or hydro. They are localized but if the grid goes down, they still have power. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Sep 2020 : 04:23:45
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Which is why I think of it as more of a power grid, rather than anything else.
-Same, that's why I find the concept of magic not utilizing the Weave (or Shadow Weave) so problematic.
If the Weave is a power grid, the Shadow Weave is a bunch of old extension cords plugged in at odd places -- still capable of providing power, and even able to reach places the grid doesn't, but those cables just can't carry as much power. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 Sep 2020 : 02:12:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Which is why I think of it as more of a power grid, rather than anything else.
-Same, that's why I find the concept of magic not utilizing the Weave (or Shadow Weave) so problematic. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 22:54:28
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Some might view spellcasting kind of like a computer program with certain "default directories" chosen at their core. In the absence of a certain command being available in the directory structure you are working from, the "program" being called upon by the spellcaster goes and checks the "default directories" for a similarly named command. If it finds it, it uses it. Thus, if someone were working in "the weave" directory, and they cast fireball, and there's a fireball command in the weave directory, they use that one. If they go somewhere else, "the weave" directory is unavailable, so they default to the "default directories". Doing this allows certain spells to be cast easier or with different results using the weave. At times, Mystra does something to remove "the default directories" from the search list.
I guess that makes the Spellplague a BSOD. That seems appropriate. 
Error 404 - Spell not found
That would be a dead magic zone. A wild magic zone would be Error 500 - Internal server error. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 22:49:46
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Some might view spellcasting kind of like a computer program with certain "default directories" chosen at their core. In the absence of a certain command being available in the directory structure you are working from, the "program" being called upon by the spellcaster goes and checks the "default directories" for a similarly named command. If it finds it, it uses it. Thus, if someone were working in "the weave" directory, and they cast fireball, and there's a fireball command in the weave directory, they use that one. If they go somewhere else, "the weave" directory is unavailable, so they default to the "default directories". Doing this allows certain spells to be cast easier or with different results using the weave. At times, Mystra does something to remove "the default directories" from the search list.
I guess that makes the Spellplague a BSOD. That seems appropriate.
Error 404 - Spell not found |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 22:34:50
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Some might view spellcasting kind of like a computer program with certain "default directories" chosen at their core. In the absence of a certain command being available in the directory structure you are working from, the "program" being called upon by the spellcaster goes and checks the "default directories" for a similarly named command. If it finds it, it uses it. Thus, if someone were working in "the weave" directory, and they cast fireball, and there's a fireball command in the weave directory, they use that one. If they go somewhere else, "the weave" directory is unavailable, so they default to the "default directories". Doing this allows certain spells to be cast easier or with different results using the weave. At times, Mystra does something to remove "the default directories" from the search list.
I guess that makes the Spellplague a BSOD. That seems appropriate. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 19:17:57
Some might view spellcasting kind of like a computer program with certain "default directories" chosen at their core. In the absence of a certain command being available in the directory structure you are working from, the "program" being called upon by the spellcaster goes and checks the "default directories" for a similarly named command. If it finds it, it uses it. Thus, if someone were working in "the weave" directory, and they cast fireball, and there's a fireball command in the weave directory, they use that one. If they go somewhere else, "the weave" directory is unavailable, so they default to the "default directories". Doing this allows certain spells to be cast easier or with different results using the weave. At times, Mystra does something to remove "the default directories" from the search list. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 16:39:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
[quote]That really doesn't make sense for rune magic. Rune magic was given to the giants by Modrons. Since The Weave is limited to Toril, Modrons would use magic that was not dependent on The Weave because they would also intact with Oerth and the other non-FR primes and their magic would have to work there as is.
-Extraplanar/otherworldly magics seem to just "default" to the Weave, as magicians from elsewhere are able to come to Realmspace and continue practicing magic with no troubles despite continuing to use the magical traditions from where they are from. Likewise, magicians from Realmspace go to other words and are able to continue using magic without a hitch, meaning that Realmsian magical traditions that utilize the Weave default to whatever laws of magic/physics are in those places.
Which is why I think of it as more of a power grid, rather than anything else.
I like that VERY much and it explains a lot. Every prime has a "Weave" it is just that Toril's has achieved sentience. It also explains spell keys needed for the outer planes: they are basically adapters so that you can hook into that plane's "grid" normally. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 06:38:25
Master Rupert,
I do recall you discussing the notion of it being a power grid before. That kind of makes sense as to some thoughts on Karsus as well. Starts getting pretty complicated though. I like the idea I must say. It does make me pause to think on it more.
Best regards,
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 03:02:55
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
[quote]That really doesn't make sense for rune magic. Rune magic was given to the giants by Modrons. Since The Weave is limited to Toril, Modrons would use magic that was not dependent on The Weave because they would also intact with Oerth and the other non-FR primes and their magic would have to work there as is.
-Extraplanar/otherworldly magics seem to just "default" to the Weave, as magicians from elsewhere are able to come to Realmspace and continue practicing magic with no troubles despite continuing to use the magical traditions from where they are from. Likewise, magicians from Realmspace go to other words and are able to continue using magic without a hitch, meaning that Realmsian magical traditions that utilize the Weave default to whatever laws of magic/physics are in those places.
Which is why I think of it as more of a power grid, rather than anything else. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 02:27:58
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
[quote]That really doesn't make sense for rune magic. Rune magic was given to the giants by Modrons. Since The Weave is limited to Toril, Modrons would use magic that was not dependent on The Weave because they would also intact with Oerth and the other non-FR primes and their magic would have to work there as is.
-Extraplanar/otherworldly magics seem to just "default" to the Weave, as magicians from elsewhere are able to come to Realmspace and continue practicing magic with no troubles despite continuing to use the magical traditions from where they are from. Likewise, magicians from Realmspace go to other words and are able to continue using magic without a hitch, meaning that Realmsian magical traditions that utilize the Weave default to whatever laws of magic/physics are in those places. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 01:01:15
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Arcanamach,
quote:
Rune magic, used by the dwarves, may also circumvent the Weave, but again I'm unsure.
I found some good information in the FRCS, 3rd edition, on page 56:
quote:
Many types of magic—rune magic, shadow magic (not to be confused with the Shadow Weave), gem magic, elemental magic,
even the elven high magic of old—have been spoken of down the years, but these are all merely different processes or paths to the same mastery of natural energies. This endless, ever-shifting web of forces is known as the Weave. Humans refer to the entity or awareness that is bound to the Weave of Toril as Mystra, and worship her as their goddess of magic.
I think that settles it. The acknowledgement in differentiating the Shadow Weave from the regular Weave, and then going on to demonstrate that different forms of magic (as identified) are merely "different processes", lays out the fact that it all leads to "the same mastery of natural energies."
Best regards,
That really doesn't make sense for rune magic. Rune magic was given to the giants by Modrons. Since The Weave is limited to Toril, Modrons would use magic that was not dependent on The Weave because they would also intact with Oerth and the other non-FR primes and their magic would have to work there as is.
Otherwise, there is no "etc." in that declaration about types of magic that use The Weave. Those listed DO use The Weave and there are others not listed that do not. Ed's quote that Wooly posted speaks to that point. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 23:55:01
Master Arcanamach,
quote:
Rune magic, used by the dwarves, may also circumvent the Weave, but again I'm unsure.
I found some good information in the FRCS, 3rd edition, on page 56:
quote:
Many types of magic—rune magic, shadow magic (not to be confused with the Shadow Weave), gem magic, elemental magic,
even the elven high magic of old—have been spoken of down the years, but these are all merely different processes or paths to the same mastery of natural energies. This endless, ever-shifting web of forces is known as the Weave. Humans refer to the entity or awareness that is bound to the Weave of Toril as Mystra, and worship her as their goddess of magic.
I think that settles it. The acknowledgement in differentiating the Shadow Weave from the regular Weave, and then going on to demonstrate that different forms of magic (as identified) are merely "different processes", lays out the fact that it all leads to "the same mastery of natural energies."
Best regards,
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Aug 2020 : 22:35:35
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
So they made spellweavers one of the founding races now too? Why can't people just leave well enough alone?
IF you like spellweavers, you may like this. Not canon at all, but one thing that Seethyr and myself discussed for Anchorome was the city of Esh Alakar (from City of Gold). Its a city that is ancient and noone knows who built it. At one point some people who are known as "the Ancients" were there and they did bad things (without going way overboard), and the people shun the city now. What we did was say that the city was built by Spellweavers LOOOONNNGG ago (during the time of the sarrukh, batrachi, and aearee). They didn't create other creatures though, so weren't a "creator race". They occupied their area, and when the spellweaver empire collapsed they fell apart. Some still survive and they occupy the underdark beneath Anchorome, and they secretly control the mantis men of the "land of insect men" which is also canon in Anchorome. The Ancients were some humans that came along later, discovered some of the spellweaver knowledge, and used it to be pricks before themselves failing. Meanwhile, the ruins of Esh Alakar are a link to the Underdark throughout Anchorome (its like a hub), and thus it becomes a superdungeon for Anchorome but without everything going down from it... rather it spreads to everywhere else.
One of the things I was discussing with him was the concept that perhaps the spellweavers work through other creatures on a literal sense (i.e. they're holed up somewhere and occupying other creature's bodies, and in doing so they're slowing down their aging or simply just not exposing themselves to danger). They would want creatures with a lot of arms though so that they can cast like the normally can. So, the idea was the party keeps running across all these creatures with multiple arms and they're all spellcasters (mariliths, thri-kreen, sahuagin mutants, ettercaps, giant four armed gargoyles, etc...). This starts to become a hint that something else is going on. BTW, if anyone thinks of a 4 or 6 armed creature, at one point I was trying to make a list, and I'd appreciate the heads up. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Aug 2020 : 21:43:23
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
So they made spellweavers one of the founding races now too? Why can't people just leave well enough alone?
IF you like spellweavers, you may like this. Not canon at all, but one thing that Seethyr and myself discussed for Anchorome was the city of Esh Alakar (from City of Gold). Its a city that is ancient and noone knows who built it. At one point some people who are known as "the Ancients" were there and they did bad things (without going way overboard), and the people shun the city now. What we did was say that the city was built by Spellweavers LOOOONNNGG ago (during the time of the sarrukh, batrachi, and aearee). They didn't create other creatures though, so weren't a "creator race". They occupied their area, and when the spellweaver empire collapsed they fell apart. Some still survive and they occupy the underdark beneath Anchorome, and they secretly control the mantis men of the "land of insect men" which is also canon in Anchorome. The Ancients were some humans that came along later, discovered some of the spellweaver knowledge, and used it to be pricks before themselves failing. Meanwhile, the ruins of Esh Alakar are a link to the Underdark throughout Anchorome (its like a hub), and thus it becomes a superdungeon for Anchorome but without everything going down from it... rather it spreads to everywhere else.
One of the things I was discussing with him was the concept that perhaps the spellweavers work through other creatures on a literal sense (i.e. they're holed up somewhere and occupying other creature's bodies, and in doing so they're slowing down their aging or simply just not exposing themselves to danger). They would want creatures with a lot of arms though so that they can cast like the normally can. So, the idea was the party keeps running across all these creatures with multiple arms and they're all spellcasters (mariliths, thri-kreen, sahuagin mutants, ettercaps, giant four armed gargoyles, etc...). This starts to become a hint that something else is going on. BTW, if anyone thinks of a 4 or 6 armed creature, at one point I was trying to make a list, and I'd appreciate the heads up. |
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