| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 23 Jul 2020 : 16:01:17
This came up in another topic, and I think it deserved its own topic.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, I don't view Unther as recovered. I view it as a lot of the folk have returned, and they're probably trying to rebuild places. Proably a lot of them that are returned were still slaves, and some genasi that were "slave lords" for Karshimis probably came over as well. I picture the Untheric folk however occupying the coast lands at the southern end, and maybe along the coast heading northward for a bit. I picture the ship of the gods island back, but with no civilization occupying it (personally, I put a rotating retinue of gods in lesser avatar form … ie. sharing a body with a mortal... actually there while in Abeir). But I'm picturing Tymanther as occupying the more interior lands, and maybe even the area that used to be Messemprar.
We know most of the returned Untherans ARE slaves, if not all. IIRC, the only ones with some degree of freedom were the priests of Gilgeam, and I don't know if they were just privileged slaves. That's why there were almost 2000 people willing to desert Gilgeam at the start of The Devil You Know (of these, only almost 1000 succeeded).
Now that I think about it, in the novel, the Untherans began to rebuild Unthalass at the start of 1487 DR, but how much they would have advanced by 1492? I guess they will be still focused in that area, maybe with a new town nearby. I mean, we don't know how much resources they have, besides man-power (a few thousand slaves?). And Unthalass was nearly rubble since it was destroyed by Gilgeam and Tiamat in the Time of Troubles, and then nearly buried during the Spellplague. They have a lot of work to do to...
As for the slave lords... maybe? We know Shyr was not transferred to Toril (Gilgeam's army was outside of it when the transferring happened, and they ended up a few miles outside Unthalass); but perhaps the blue flames would have transferred a few Shyran genasies (?) that were outside the city. Perhaps a whole platoon of city guards or something. Something I know, if they go to Akanûl they will not be welcomed there. The Akanûlans were slaves themselves while in Abeir, and they dislike the slaver culture of Calimshan. The Shyrans would be welcomed there, tho.
As for the coast lands, Unther definitely makes up the coast north of the delta of the Alamber. But the southern coast is definitely Tymantheran territory. Djerad Kethendi is just in the opposite coast of Unthalass, and the Untherans are unable to defeat Vivesh Nannari (Nanna-Sin) as per the SCAG. If you have BRJ proto-map of Tymanther, perhaps Unther currently goes from Unthalass' bay up north to Faol Egurod.
As for Tymanther, the SCAG says the dragonborn expanded around Ash Lake and south of it. Perhaps they surrendered their northern lands?
As for Arush Vayem, it wasn't sent to Abeir, as the novel depicted it in Toril after the transferring of lands.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Who occupied that area? Is it more dragonborn?
In Abeir? IIRC, this was part of Shyr, or the territory of the Dream Giants. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Dec 2024 : 14:01:30
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
If i'm right about my theories, then the yuan-ti in Kara Tur are a prototype version of the modern yuan-ti (different breeding models and outcomes).
Their origin is abyssal in nature and the sarrukh of Okoth went planewalking for a time.
So having cobra dragons as Okothian experiments makes sense. They should have mostly died out as the climate of Unther changed. Any cobra dragons left should be much more desert like in nature after 30,000 years of magical evolution.
Climate affecting and killing off magical creatures that can literally endure someone sticking a burning torch directly on their skin isn't something I'd push. The way things work in our world doesn't necessarily reflect the way they should in FR because of magic. That being said, part of why I noted so many undead ones is that I picture there being very few living ones left in the region (but having at least one still living and of breeding age proves useful... more at end of this).
That being said, your other statements (that you figured them for malatra)... yep, totally agree. Its apparent from the original article that they were absolutely intending these to be in the Kara-tur region, but they thematically fit a few other areas (i.e. anywhere with a focus on snakes, jungles, or in theory very dry/hot places as well like deserts, volcanic areas, etc....).
On the yuan-ti of Kara-tur being different from those of Faerun.... I can definitely buy that someone found the sarrukh rituals ... or that the sarrukh modified the rituals of someone else. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say that Set's "weresnakes" might have been a modification of such (noting, I know they were called weresnakes, but I don't believe they were able to pass the disease like a lyncanthrope, so they were just shapechangers).
Since we're already talking about Snakes, Unther, and Mulhorand.... Dragon #313 article is worth a look "Elder Serpents of Set" starting on page 84 by Thomas Costa. To note, this is for ALL snakes (tiny, huge, flying, etc..). It might be a better fit for giant snakes in the area than just "giant snakes". They are conferred a measure of human level or better intelligence and can speak. They become "magical beasts" as opposed to animals (making them harder to control). Their skin thickens, they gain a hit die, and their hit die become d10's. They can use an ability to command lesser serpents, and they can speak with serpents (parseltongue  ). They have blindsense. The article presents these snakes as even possessing class levels of cleric, etc.... (if I were doing 3.5 rules, I'd love a multiclassed wizard(necromancer)/archivist/mystic theurge/true necromancer to give arcane and divine magic, but with a focus on them having to FIND their divine spells to learn them ... fits with Set's role of Evil Magic)
These elder serpents of Set were found throughout Faerun as Set worked against Sseth in the years leading up to the spellplague. They formed an "Order of the Grand Snakemaster" that was working together to spread Set's influence sneakily across Faerun (in whatever name/alias he chose to present himself locally). This order was only 67 members strong per the article, mostly elder serpents.
https://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/organizations/snakemaster.shtml
They used the portal network of the winding serpent (from James Wyatt's perilous gateways web article). Ssisthlerine, The Forked Tongue of Varae, was the current Grand Snakemaster per the article (and a 10th level cleric). She is noted as being the chief vizier of the dark naga Ebarnaje (and several of his predecessors) in the Serpent Hills. Vasrass is noted as a member working against Mulhorand in the Plains of purple dust, and one of its most effective assassins killing Mulhorandi priests. Statistics are provided in the article. The second in command of the Order is Circelice, who is also in the Raurin and roams Imaskari ruins (also a cleric, but I'd change it to the later developed Archivist). Supposedly, the leader of this group gained some intrinsic power, such that when they shed their skin it would have some special effects if eaten. Personally, I prefer some ability related to using snake skin to create scrolls and/or spellbooks (especially given the "skins of the world serpent"), and have her using her own skin as both archivist and wizard to create powerful books of magic.
I would also find it interesting if there were "half-dragon" versions of these "Elder Serpents"... in other words cobra dragons may have bred with giant snakes in the century since Set elevated the Elder Serpents. This might be a good way to produce some lesser opposition, given them a full snake body (no foreclaws), but possibly wings. So, essentially "giant winged snakes that can talk". In the doing of this, it would be in my view that the Elder Serpents were wanting this, and they would be acquiring the offspring for the greater glory of Set. I could definitely see Ssisthlerine producing these offspring by meeting with a cobra dragon herself and placing her offspring in places of power over the last century. However, in my view, if your interest is in developing Unther, then developing the 2nd in command who only got a one line sentence, but was in the Raurin works best.
Circelice (female, elder serpent Huge viper cleric 5 NE) who spends her time wandering through Imaskari ruins across Raurin, the Dust Desert.
So, I'd probably modify Circelice for 3.5 be a wizard 3/archivist3/mystic theurge X based on needs. But I know your developing 5e rules, and those rules aren't as rigorous for developing unique monsters. Having her controlling breeding with a cobra dragon to produce winged snakes that may have viper or cobra characteristics, but more often wings than not, seems like a fun thing. Also having her interested in finding/using magic to alter her offspring also seems like a good idea. So, in essence, she may be interested in not just Imaskari, but also Sarrukh, magics. However, she may be worried about making the Sarrukh aware of her, since they're likely to want to simply control her. It could also be that she resorted to undeath to survive the last hundred years (the Grand Snakemaster is noted as possibly immortal, but not the second in command... but who exactly is STILL the Grand Snakemaster may have changed in a hundred years ... or exactly how long a huge viper lives, or if Set was less discriminating on handing out immortality, possibly using his own blood to confer it in a ritual). Preferably she is still living though, to keep producing offspring. It could be fun if she's using her own shed skin as discussed above (or the shed skin of a cobra dragon may be magical as well). Perhaps even, she has discovered the methods that the manifestations of the Mulhorandi gods would use to make the godkings that served them (i.e. creating incarnations from humans of certain bloodlines), possibly even finding the "body" of Set in some temple in the desert and using blood from it to enhance herself in a similar way.
What happened to this organization when Set disappeared... did Sseth wake up and provide spells, but the organization worked under its own guidance.. until Set returned recently, and now SOMETHING is happening? To note, I previously metioned the Citadel of Black Ash as being Gilgeamties... but for a while Set was masquerading as Gilgeam and providing their spells before they died. Which... that opens up yet another theory for "who is it that is REALLY the Son of Victory that returned in Gilgeam's name". I may actually like the idea of it being Set wearing' Gilgeam's godflesh more than it being Bane aftering thinking through some of this. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 30 Dec 2024 : 03:25:16
Now that you guys mention yuan-ti and that stuff, I had completely forgotten that Chris Sims and the people of the LFR program had added this bit of lore about dragonborn specially reviling Sseth. This was before Richard Lee Byers and Erin Evans took the place and stablished their lore, so they ignored that bit, but I think it can be rescued. And if they revile Sseth and its cult, it means perhaps the dragonborn have had problems with the snakey folk down there.
And yes, I had also thought about Okoth, and how they may be influencing the developments in the Old Empires. How much they would allow big nations like Mulhorand develop, is something that I'm still figuring out. Though, in my headcanon, Okoth is mostly occupied with dealing with Glalmorra right now (the beholder empire Ed mentioned in the video), and so have less time to be masterminding stuff from the shadows. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 29 Dec 2024 : 21:09:42
If i'm right about my theories, then the yuan-ti in Kara Tur are a prototype version of the modern yuan-ti (different breeding models and outcomes).
Their origin is abyssal in nature and the sarrukh of Okoth went planewalking for a time.
So having cobra dragons as Okothian experiments makes sense. They should have mostly died out as the climate of Unther changed. Any cobra dragons left should be much more desert like in nature after 30,000 years of magical evolution. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Dec 2024 : 20:55:15
You know, after researching cobra dragons for a few minutes, I really think they'd be a great addition to the Unther/Mulhorand/Raurin/Murghom/shining south region (as well as Zakhara... which might not deem them to be "dragons" since they are effectively giant winged snakes that happen to have front claws and a breath weapon). I could see them involved with the cult of Set, with the cult of the dragon, with the cult of Tiamat, etc... It could be an interesting article to put 8 or 10 of these spread throughout the region, with some being undead.
Maybe a vampiric one in the Black Ash Plain that converted Jaxanaedegor of Mount Thulbane (who serves Alasklerbanbastos the dracolich .... maybe somehow the dracolich managed to twist the bonds of vampire master and vampire spawn... not freeing Jaxanaedegor but rather forcing itself to be viewed as its master). This might be a source of enmity between Alasklerbanbastos and this cobra dragon, but the cobra dragon dare not act against the dracolich for fear of being destroyed itself.
Possibly serving the cult of Set, a mummified cobra dragon (and thus immune to fire, most mummies worst fear... and the powers of a mummy lord, plus extra) who guards the former home of the manifestation of Set in the Raurin desert (i.e. before he like the other Mulan gods were allowed to leave the prime material plane and return to the outer planes). Maybe after the god went silent due to the spellplague, it took over as "the manifestation of the god".
A ghost cobra dragon tied to the Okothian civilization who has been forced to guard some special, but long lost, ruins for millenia (or alternatively, who was changed into a ghostly guardian of the Imaskari lost city of Metos in the Methwood, and is the reason noone has returned from trying to find it).
A dracolich cobra dragon, converted by the cult of the dragon and serving Alasklerbanbastos, who possibly hates the vampiric one in the black ash plains for some slight... such as refusing to turn him into a vampire and forcing him to turn to the cult of the dragon... and quite possibly being the person who then convinced Alasklerbanbastos into "acquiring control of" Jaxanaedegor.
That right there is easily 4 undead varieties with interesting stories. Some living ones
A cobra dragon that serves the cult of Tiamat and spies on the Citadel of Black Ash, where once Gilgeam's worshippers fled to after their god died in a fight with Tiamat. Set began answering their prayers as Gilgeam. His followers were then killed in a volcanic eruption, but lived on as undead. With the return of Gilgeam, perhaps these undead are in motion again, and this cobra dragon seeks to gain favor with Tiamat's clergy (and possibly acquire the citadel, which was formerly a brown dragon's lair as well).
A cobra dragon that sets itself up in the ruins of one of the first dwarven settlements on Toril, which exists beneath the country of Semphar. It uses the underdark to make hit and run attacks against the surface world.
Breeding age cobra dragons in Okoth which are enslaved by the Sarrukh there seek their freedom, meanwhile the Sarrukh are using them to breed an army of young dragons to serve their own nefarious purposes.
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 29 Dec 2024 : 20:43:25
I think the Cobra Dragon is intended to be placed in Malatra, which has a yuan-ti presence already.
But dont let that restrict you. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Dec 2024 : 16:48:44
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I was aware of the tuuru, but not of the plesiosaurus. I don't know why I was under the impression that dinosaurs were a Chult exclusive thing.
One thing I want to develop (and is something that made me stop and repurpose my almost finished "Guide to Tymanther"), is the existence of the giant snakes Ed mentioned in his video about his original Unther. Perhaps as a game changer in the future of the region.
Hmmm, so possibly "prehistoric"/"dinosaur" giant snakes resembling the giant snake that Conan fought in the original Conan movie. I can definitely buy that given that there was a Sarrukh civilization nearby (i.e. in what becomes Thay and the first civilization in Okoth). The should be amazingly huge since you already have a yuan-ti, sarrukh, and weresnake presence (so snakes as big as humanoids).
Something like titanoboa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanoboa which reached a length of 50 feet long in our real world. Since they like heat, the black ash plains seems like a great place for them to live, where they might regularly hunt the giants and brown dragons found there (and vice versa)..... like living in the lush area around the river alamber and then heading into the black ash plains to hunt... then returning to the river to digest their meals. When dragonborn appear to their south, I could see them going down there to hunt as well, such that dragonborn might take up snake hunting as opposed to dragon hunting.
You know, I could see that being a staple food in the region, much like how people in Louisiana eat alligator made into sausage. Slabs of Snake Steak might be considered a delicacy, and giant snake egg omelets cooked by street side vendors could be another big fad.
Of course, Dragon #146, Dragon bestiary article page 22 mentions Cobra Dragons. It specifically places them in FR, in T'u Lung, and more numerous in lands "south and west"... not southwest.. but south and west. Unther is west and just a little north of T'u Lung. Cobra dragons breath fire, aren't affected by fire, and can breath out a huge black smoke cloud. DEFINITELY could see these hunting in the black ash plains, and perhaps so few people survive the encounters that they're relatively unknown. They could DEFINITELY be the creations of the Sarrukh experimenting with crossing red dragons and snakes. They were also adversely affected by cold, highly magic resistant and couldn't use spells like other dragons, and their bite had a venom effect that was nasty.
Cobra dragons live in caves and underground caverns in tropical and subtropical environments. They dislike swamps. In Kara-Tur (the Oriental Adventures lands of the FORGOTTEN REALMS™ setting), cobra dragons are found in the far southern reaches of the T’u Lung Empire, where they cause considerable grief and destruction. They are said to be even more numerous in other lands south and west of that empire.
some additional notes
Skull collecting is a favorite pastime of cobra dragons. Skulls of powerful monsters and rare creatures are highly prized. Favorite skulls include those of cave bears, dinosaurs, dragons, giants, and unicorns. Humanoid skulls are deemed interesting but of little value since they are so easily obtained. The offering of a rare skull as a gift when attempting to converse with a cobra dragon aids considerably in gaining the dragon’s favor.
<snip>
Common followers include bakemono, mono, gargoyles, lizard men, and mobats. These creatures live with the dragon and worship it as a god.
If there were some cobra dragons in the area, I could see there being conflict between them and the vayemniri just over the mere fact that its a dragon, it wants to be worshipped, and it might have something like kobolds/urds "winged kobolds" as worshippers. So, maybe one big ancient one that would hunt in the area, but with smaller offspring that are killed off periodically (to note, as a breed, they don't take a lot of care of their offspring). |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 29 Dec 2024 : 03:54:07
I was aware of the tuuru, but not of the plesiosaurus. I don't know why I was under the impression that dinosaurs were a Chult exclusive thing.
One thing I want to develop (and is something that made me stop and repurpose my almost finished "Guide to Tymanther"), is the existence of the giant snakes Ed mentioned in his video about his original Unther. Perhaps as a game changer in the future of the region. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Dec 2024 : 13:46:43
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Kanjentellequor Abraxus is an odd-scaled, cheerful dragonborn whose demeanor soured only when I referred to him as an "strixiki," a term my dear friend and expert translator Lady Jalan Valos of Waterdeep said was the appropriate draconic word for their people. Apparently, in these parts, they prefer the term "Vayemniri," so to save me any future headaches I'm going with the Common term for them, dragonborn. Abraxus has been assigned to be my guide as I head to Djerad Thymar and a meeting with their “King,” Vanquisher Kallan. I might as well burn my old “Volo’s Guide to the Old Empires” as the book is one hundred years old and the information is completely outdated. If anything, Volo needs to write a new book about this region.
Tymanther is a land of great contrast. Marvelous cities are surrounded by the ruins of ancient, lost realms; fertile grasslands lay near arid plains, and are surrounded by great mountain ranges and the Alamber Sea. However, its culture is alien when compared with that of the rest of the Realms. Nowhere in my travels, not in the heart of the great dwarven halls of the Great Rift, nor the streets of Menzoberranzan, have I felt so much an outsider as in Tymanther.
Every kingdom of the Realms has its secret histories, but no land in Faerûn has its early years as undocumented as Tymanther. Until the latter part of the fifteenth century, the dragonborn were a quiet people, content to live alone in their ruin-filled lands, with only a few individuals who occasionally left their homeland to search for dragon lairs. These travelers did not offer any great insight into the customs of their people, beyond the fact that their culture favors military prowess and dragon hunting, and that they have a great sense of honor. It’s said that a dragonborn prefers to die rather than going against their given word.
We know that the original land of the dragonborn was “thrown unceremoniously into Unther like a boulder”, in the words of an anonymous Untheri scribe, who is said to have survived the dreaded Spellplague and saw the events first hand. The next thing we knew is that the dragonborn built a [redacted] pyramid so huge it can be seen from miles around, that makes dwarves open their eyes in awe every time they think about it, during the Wailing Years.
The historian Hyurkes of Luthcheq once wrote, "The dragonborn people have, throughout the last century, been perhaps the least-understood group in Faerûn. Yet, those who have taken the time to experience their culture have gained a greater appreciation for this noble and beautiful people." It should be noted that Hyurkes disappeared during his final expedition into the eastern lands of Tymanther, in the Year of the Ageless One (1479 DR), searching for some Abeiran ruins.
It was not until the so-called “Draconic Crisis” of the Year of the Ageless One that Tymanther became “known” outside of the Old Empires. Then, a couple of dragonborn helped in the defense of Suzail during the Shadovar siege of the Year of the Nether Mountain Scrolls (1486 DR), turning the attention of the common folk to this strange land of eastern Faerûn.
Compared to Cormyr, Tymanther can be seen as a "backward" land economically speaking. Most of the agriculture is grown by subsistence farmers, and their only official trading partner is the city of Luthcheq, in Chessenta. Banditry was never a big problem for the dragonborn, but rumors persists [sic] of gangs led by Tiamatans, smuggling rare drugs made of Abeiran flowers across the borders of Tymanther, but this has remained unproven to this day.
More troubling is their “cold war” with their erstwhile neighbors, the Untherans.Though recently defeated when their navy was destroyed by the titanic dragon turtle that lairs in the waters of the Alamber Sea, the agents of the mad god-king of Unther are said to lurk in the shadows, always trying to sow chaos in the rather orderly cities of the dragonborn...
— except from "A Pocket Guide to Tymanther", by the bard and professional adventurer Dorn Cormaeril, written under the auspices and generous patronage of Her Majesty the Queen Raedra Obarskyr of Cormyr, in the Year of the Warrior Princess, 1489 DR
Nicely done. Just throwing out some additional food for thought.
One thing I'd project further into a campaign in the area is the portion between Chessenta, Tymanther, and Unther that contains dinosaurs (i.e. some of the Riders to the Sky Mountains). We don't hear a lot about it in the books or anything, but it was there in the Old Empires. The Tuuru as a pteranodon like species is mentioned in Old Empires, but its also mentioned during the Spellplague with Dungeon #178 Backdrop:Chessenta. There it has Wilden riding the Tuuru. Old Empires places trolls, duergar, and yuirwood exiled half-drow in the region as well. Dungeon #178 specifically has marine trolls (scrags), domesticating pleisosaurs as mounts, so I'd probably recommend developing that civilization.
I personally like the idea of the Wilden appearing and pushing back the trolls, duergar, and half-drow, meanwhile, the maw of the godswallower maybe further drives these groups out of other portions region that they would have inhabited. Perhaps the trolls BECAME the scrag living in the methmere because their village was destroyed (a whole story could be developed of them beseeching a power to transform them from one type of troll into another so that they can live in the water, or enacting some secret ritual, etc... or just breeding with a small group of existing scrags).
On the wilden, even further... the Methwood was inhabited by elves. It was known that some portion of these elves had developed into the Eldreth Veluuthra (xenophobic elven racists) who hunted anyone coming into their woodlands. The article in Dungeon #178 mentions "fey" being in the Methwood, which could be the elves to make things simplest... but it could ALSO be Wilden. It might be interesting to develop this Wilden population as even more insular than the dragonborn, but also EXTREMELY protective of their territory. It could also be interesting to put mammoths and sabretooth tigers in the methwood to put a feral prehistoric vibe even more in the region, |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 28 Dec 2024 : 07:29:17
Kanjentellequor Abraxus is an odd-scaled, cheerful dragonborn whose demeanor soured only when I referred to him as an "strixiki," a term my dear friend and expert translator Lady Jalan Valos of Waterdeep said was the appropriate draconic word for their people. Apparently, in these parts, they prefer the term "Vayemniri," so to save me any future headaches I'm going with the Common term for them, dragonborn. Abraxus has been assigned to be my guide as I head to Djerad Thymar and a meeting with their “King,” Vanquisher Kallan. I might as well burn my old “Volo’s Guide to the Old Empires” as the book is one hundred years old and the information is completely outdated. If anything, Volo needs to write a new book about this region.
Tymanther is a land of great contrast. Marvelous cities are surrounded by the ruins of ancient, lost realms; fertile grasslands lay near arid plains, and are surrounded by great mountain ranges and the Alamber Sea. However, its culture is alien when compared with that of the rest of the Realms. Nowhere in my travels, not in the heart of the great dwarven halls of the Great Rift, nor the streets of Menzoberranzan, have I felt so much an outsider as in Tymanther.
Every kingdom of the Realms has its secret histories, but no land in Faerûn has its early years as undocumented as Tymanther. Until the latter part of the fifteenth century, the dragonborn were a quiet people, content to live alone in their ruin-filled lands, with only a few individuals who occasionally left their homeland to search for dragon lairs. These travelers did not offer any great insight into the customs of their people, beyond the fact that their culture favors military prowess and dragon hunting, and that they have a great sense of honor. It’s said that a dragonborn prefers to die rather than going against their given word.
We know that the original land of the dragonborn was “thrown unceremoniously into Unther like a boulder”, in the words of an anonymous Untheri scribe, who is said to have survived the dreaded Spellplague and saw the events first hand. The next thing we knew is that the dragonborn built a [redacted] pyramid so huge it can be seen from miles around, that makes dwarves open their eyes in awe every time they think about it, during the Wailing Years.
The historian Hyurkes of Luthcheq once wrote, "The dragonborn people have, throughout the last century, been perhaps the least-understood group in Faerûn. Yet, those who have taken the time to experience their culture have gained a greater appreciation for this noble and beautiful people." It should be noted that Hyurkes disappeared during his final expedition into the eastern lands of Tymanther, in the Year of the Ageless One (1479 DR), searching for some Abeiran ruins.
It was not until the so-called “Draconic Crisis” of the Year of the Ageless One that Tymanther became “known” outside of the Old Empires. Then, a couple of dragonborn helped in the defense of Suzail during the Shadovar siege of the Year of the Nether Mountain Scrolls (1486 DR), turning the attention of the common folk to this strange land of eastern Faerûn.
Compared to Cormyr, Tymanther can be seen as a "backward" land economically speaking. Most of the agriculture is grown by subsistence farmers, and their only official trading partner is the city of Luthcheq, in Chessenta. Banditry was never a big problem for the dragonborn, but rumors persists [sic] of gangs led by Tiamatans, smuggling rare drugs made of Abeiran flowers across the borders of Tymanther, but this has remained unproven to this day.
More troubling is their “cold war” with their erstwhile neighbors, the Untherans.Though recently defeated when their navy was destroyed by the titanic dragon turtle that lairs in the waters of the Alamber Sea, the agents of the mad god-king of Unther are said to lurk in the shadows, always trying to sow chaos in the rather orderly cities of the dragonborn...
— except from "A Pocket Guide to Tymanther", by the bard and professional adventurer Dorn Cormaeril, written under the auspices and generous patronage of Her Majesty the Queen Raedra Obarskyr of Cormyr, in the Year of the Warrior Princess, 1489 DR |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 06 Dec 2024 : 20:48:27
Oh, I was talking about individuals that go against the norms of their own societies (ie. the orthodox Tymantheran dragonborn are atheists and dragon haters by tradition, but there is an important minority of dragonborn who do worship gods, and don't mind, or even do like, dragons). But your points are valid. The jinaari dragonborn (from Acquisitions Incorporated) have a quite different culture than the Tymantheran vayemniri dragonborn. The jinaari have a royal family, something that would be appalling for an orthodox dragonborn of Tymanther. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Dec 2024 : 23:52:19
That’s largely how I’ve introduced elements of Returned Abeir in my Realms. I actually liked the concept back in the days of 4e… and I’ve been steadily tinkering with my own home campaign Realmslore in order to make it fit how I think best. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Dec 2024 : 14:10:42
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And given the amount of celestial, temporal? time that Abeir and Toril were separated… deviations between civilisations or cultures of Dragonborn resident on both worlds had plenty of temporal room to develop both independently and very, very differently.
Yeah, one of the things I've been noting is that the lands that come back to Toril should be a lot different.... and at the same time the lands that return to Abeir should find their neighbors very different. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Dec 2024 : 23:28:25
And given the amount of celestial, temporal? time that Abeir and Toril were separated… deviations between civilisations or cultures of Dragonborn resident on both worlds had plenty of temporal room to develop both independently and very, very differently. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Dec 2024 : 13:33:34
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Just a silly thing that came to my mind today...
On gods, dragons, and dragonborn
"A common thing many maunthreki—I mean, humans, tell me is "I didn't knew dragonborn worshiped gods". They are genuinely surprised to learn that. Those among them who are learned, instead say "I'm surprised to know dragonborn worship dragon gods! I thought you hated dragons." People tend to forget that societies aren't monolithic, and that individuals that go against the norms and trends of their societies aren't that rare. Humans do that all the time.
Their bewilderment is legitimate, however. As everyone knows, we vayemniri —or dragonborn, as you humans call us—, have a complex history with dragons, and our ancestors lived in a world were the gods didn't existed, literally —they had been barred from entering there by their own king (or whatever you call the being that oversees the gods. Ao did they call him?). The mere idea of powerful beings that ask you to venerate them in exchange for protection and wellbeing is very similar to what the tyrants of Abeir did to our ancestors under the steelsky.
So, the answer for this question is complex. Why some of us worship the gods, specially dragon gods? And why some of us believe that we are kin to dragons, even when dragons were the ones who enslaved our ancestors? Have we forgotten the ancient debt of blood? No, we haven't forgot. But the truth is that the dragons of this world have little to do with the dragons of Abeir. It would be unfair to kill someone who didn't do anything to you just because it comes from the same people that hurt your people. Both for our ancestors and for the dragons of this world, who did nothing to them.
There is also the little known fact that not every vayemniri hates dragons. Yes, the founders of our people were fanatics who rebelled against the tyrants who enslaved them, and their descendants still carry the hardcore beliefs of these ancient heroes. But even among these rebels, there were people that believed not all dragons were bad ones, only the tyrants that enslaved them. And there were other individuals that because indoctrination or bad circumstances, believed they were better under the dragon rules that fending for themselves in a world where wealth is the real tyrant. This is specially true among my kind in the faraway land of Laerakond.
And so, some of our ancestors suffered the bigotry and prejudice of their own peers, as for all that we vayemniri talk about how we like freedom and dislike tyrants and slaves, the sad truth as that Tymanther subject of the the Tyranny of Thoughts. We can only think what the traditions allow us to think, we can only believe what our ancestors believed, we can only marry who the clan elders choose for you, and so on. And our own clan elders have become the new tyrants that enslaved the common vayemniri, this time not with chains made of iron and steel, but with ones made of "traditions" and "duties". And those who rebel against these chains are exiled or even killed. Not so different from what the dragon tyrants did to the slaves that misbehaved.
And so we came to this world, and learned about freedom of thoughts, and that the gods existed, and that the good dragons also existed and were more common. And that the dragons also had gods, good and evil. And those of us that still believed that dragons were as any individuals, and that those in Abeir chose to be evil, but many here chose to be good, decided it was time to learn about the new world and its gods, and perhaps the truth behind our own origins..."
— except from a conversation between a human scholar and a dragonborn, compiled in "In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of an Oghmanite", published by Tym Waterdeep Limited in association with the Fellowship of Innkeepers and the Fellowship of Carters and Coachmen, in the Year of the Narthex Murders, 1482 DR.
Love this Zero, as it fits perfectly my view of the PARTS OF ABEIR THAT CAME TO TORIL. Just like the people of Faerun know very little about what goes on in Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, "the land faerunian sages call Anchorome", "the land faerunian sages call Katashaka", etc.... the people of Abeir likely know very little about what happened on other continents. We have from Ed himself that the gods were worshipped in Abeir, but possibly not the gods that WE know of. We also have from Ed that magic worked in Abeir. I imagine that there were dragonborn in other areas of Abeir that would have had a society completely alien to the ideals of the Vayemniri, and there may have been portions of the world where dragonlords didn't hold sway. In short, "we have seen Abeir painted with a very broad brush, and we should consider that it should be as diverse in thought, tradition, and knowledge as Toril is". In another view, the "discovered history" that faerunian sages uncovered about estelar and dawn titans should be considered colored by lack of information and not fact. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 03 Dec 2024 : 20:22:04
Just a silly thing that came to my mind today...
On gods, dragons, and dragonborn
"A common thing many maunthreki—I mean, humans, tell me is "I didn't knew dragonborn worshiped gods". They are genuinely surprised to learn that. Those among them who are learned, instead say "I'm surprised to know dragonborn worship dragon gods! I thought you hated dragons." People tend to forget that societies aren't monolithic, and that individuals that go against the norms and trends of their societies aren't that rare. Humans do that all the time.
Their bewilderment is legitimate, however. As everyone knows, we vayemniri —or dragonborn, as you humans call us—, have a complex history with dragons, and our ancestors lived in a world were the gods didn't existed, literally —they had been barred from entering there by their own king (or whatever you call the being that oversees the gods. Ao did they call him?). The mere idea of powerful beings that ask you to venerate them in exchange for protection and wellbeing is very similar to what the tyrants of Abeir did to our ancestors under the steelsky.
So, the answer for this question is complex. Why some of us worship the gods, specially dragon gods? And why some of us believe that we are kin to dragons, even when dragons were the ones who enslaved our ancestors? Have we forgotten the ancient debt of blood? No, we haven't forgot. But the truth is that the dragons of this world have little to do with the dragons of Abeir. It would be unfair to kill someone who didn't do anything to you just because it comes from the same people that hurt your people. Both for our ancestors and for the dragons of this world, who did nothing to them.
There is also the little known fact that not every vayemniri hates dragons. Yes, the founders of our people were fanatics who rebelled against the tyrants who enslaved them, and their descendants still carry the hardcore beliefs of these ancient heroes. But even among these rebels, there were people that believed not all dragons were bad ones, only the tyrants that enslaved them. And there were other individuals that because indoctrination or bad circumstances, believed they were better under the dragon rules that fending for themselves in a world where wealth is the real tyrant. This is specially true among my kind in the faraway land of Laerakond.
And so, some of our ancestors suffered the bigotry and prejudice of their own peers, as for all that we vayemniri talk about how we like freedom and dislike tyrants and slaves, the sad truth as that Tymanther subject of the the Tyranny of Thoughts. We can only think what the traditions allow us to think, we can only believe what our ancestors believed, we can only marry who the clan elders choose for you, and so on. And our own clan elders have become the new tyrants that enslaved the common vayemniri, this time not with chains made of iron and steel, but with ones made of "traditions" and "duties". And those who rebel against these chains are exiled or even killed. Not so different from what the dragon tyrants did to the slaves that misbehaved.
And so we came to this world, and learned about freedom of thoughts, and that the gods existed, and that the good dragons also existed and were more common. And that the dragons also had gods, good and evil. And those of us that still believed that dragons were as any individuals, and that those in Abeir chose to be evil, but many here chose to be good, decided it was time to learn about the new world and its gods, and perhaps the truth behind our own origins..."
— except from a conversation between a human scholar and a dragonborn, compiled in "In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of an Oghmanite", published by Tym Waterdeep Limited in association with the Fellowship of Innkeepers and the Fellowship of Carters and Coachmen, in the Year of the Narthex Murders, 1482 DR. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Jul 2024 : 19:14:22
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I see. For what I understand, Erin's Inanna may be based on D&D Ishtar (who is also called Inanna in some sources, like Dragon mag #329), who is said to be a Chaotic Neutral deity.
So, we specifically AND canonically for the realms have those two individuals as NOT the same entity. By that, I mean that Ishtar is still worshipped in NAME in Unther. But its noted that "she left and turned over her power to Isis". So, at present, Isis is accepting her prayers. She, like Ramman, is noted as a "Babylonian" god who was accepted by the people of Unther whenever they lost so many of their gods in the orcgate wars. So, she came after the orcgate wars and got run off. She was a river goddess. This is why I like the story that for Ishtar that she was a prime material bound goddess... aka Eldath. It puts a nice bow on where Eldath came from. So, just like Hoar, we may have a handful of gods that fled Unther's pantheon when Gilgeam started to become a problem and changed their names in order to do it. In her instance, she may have given up her "name rights" to Isis to not screw over her worshippers, since I don't see Gilgeam as willing to take on the whole Mulhorandi Pantheon.
As an irony, many of the "Untheric" gods that died and that are noted as travelling on the ship of the gods with Enlil are in fact Babylonian "gods". Nergal, Marduk, Girru....Gilgamesh whom Gilgeam is modeled from.. these are all listed as Babylonian pantheon (that being said, Deities and Demigods does note that that sumerian and babylonian pantheons are a D&D created difference). So, its also kind of odd that the old empires references that the "Untheric" Pantheon imported Babylonian gods, because it had them already.... but at the same time, the list of those gods and their deaths were actually put in by a different author (i.e. I believe it came in Powers and Pantheons). The D&D Sumerian gods THAT WE KNOW OF who were part of the "Untheric Pantheon" were only Enlil, Inanna, Ki,Nanna-Sin, and Utu.... and we explicitly know that Enki didn't come over from powers and pantheons. That leaves Nin-Hursag as the one "Sumerian" pantheon goddess that's unclear if she came or not (an earth goddess with control of gravity, magnetism, and flight per D&D lore, but actual mythology focuses on her as a nurturing/fertility/mother goddess and wife/consort of Enki OR sometimes wife of Enlil).
Inanna is canonically claimed to have died in the orcgate wars, so in the realms, she is NOT Ishtar. I know in OUR world there's a lot of stuff that claims the two are the same on the web.... but generally the myths that I read... when I see stuff about Ishtar its more "kind" and when I see stuff about Inanna, she's typically portrayed as a B word.
By the way, this concept that the Untheric Pantheon started "taking in" Babylonian Pantheon gods... that's one thing where I like to personally think that we kind of have the story wrong. By that, I mean that there weren't TWO groups of deities that came over for the Mulan people. There were THREE OR MORE .... so maybe there was another group that followed Anu. This fits in well with the canon lore that Anu was worshipped down in Durpar from Desert of Desolation (which yes, was shoehorned into the realms... but take lemons, make lemonade). So, we may have had Anu, Ishtar, Ramman, Assuran, and maybe a few others (Anshar becoming Shar, Dahak becoming Null, Druaga as another name for possibly Gargauth). I ALSO wouldn't be surprised if many of these "gods" were ascended dragons and that's an even further hidden part of this story... as in the manifestations that they used were draconic bodies that they possessed like ToT Avatars... and I state that because so many instances of "dragon gods" seem to appear in THAT section of the realms. So, unlike the other mulan gods who "spelljammed" here in magically created (or possibly mortal grown) manifestation bodies, these gods may have come through via possessing draconic bodies.... which may have also been what "Primordials" did in having "dragon mounts". It might even be something where these "deities" were already existent in the realms, but trapped in Abeir, and their method of coming to their worshippers was via "crossing over" in the shared body of a dragon.... and maybe this was possible because there's some ties between the old empires land and Abeir from a prior crossover.
|
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 09 Jul 2024 : 04:52:37
I see. For what I understand, Erin's Inanna may be based on D&D Ishtar (who is also called Inanna in some sources, like Dragon mag #329), who is said to be a Chaotic Neutral deity. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Jul 2024 : 22:34:44
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Is there any sourcebook depicting the D&D version of Inanna? I've only found her in 1e Deities and Demigods, and there is not much about her personality and her religion in that book, just her stats and battle tactics; and in On Hallowed Ground, and this book doesn't even talk about her, but about her domain and what the souls there fight between them...
To my knowledge... no. It does give her alignment though as Lawful Evil and her home to be in the nine hells. My judgment of her personality comes entirely from what I've read of her on the web based on the stories from their myths, and I'd agree with a lawful evil assessment. She's depicted as a power hungry and demanding goddess with a spiteful streak against anyone who crosses her. That being said, I'm no expert on that section of mythology either, having only really started haphazardly learning about it in the last 6 to 8 years. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 06 Jul 2024 : 06:04:00
Is there any sourcebook depicting the D&D version of Inanna? I've only found her in 1e Deities and Demigods, and there is not much about her personality and her religion in that book, just her stats and battle tactics; and in On Hallowed Ground, and this book doesn't even talk about her, but about her domain and what the souls there fight between them... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Jul 2024 : 03:12:32
hmmmm, yeah, not big on this variation of Inanna if they just focus on her as a love goddess. When I read the things about her, Inanna is a royal b-word, who is lawful evil, expects everyone to do what she wants them to do, uses her "womanly wiles" to seduce men to get what she wants, but then also orders people about like she's a queen, and is also a war goddess. So, reducing her to just another Bast or Sune etc.... not my cup of tea. Now Ishtar, she's been portrayed in D&D as more neutral to possibly good and more like other love gods. Since in real world myth Inanna and Ishtar are often confused, but in realms they are two distinct entities, I'd prefer to keep them different like this. Inanna should more closely resemble Loviatar (which oddly, we see Loviatar PLAYING the role of Inanna in the short story in Complete Book of Necromancers). |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 04 Jul 2024 : 22:21:01
So, ok, I rewatched the relevant part of the video. The Inanna thing starts at 3:44:00/3:45:00 mark. But, there is a lot of context from the rest of the video that you need to understand what's happening, so I'm going to try to summarize here as best as a I can.
The leaders of the dragonborn clan Kanjentellequor seems to have been investigating the god-tombs of the old Untheric gods on their own, without nobody (not even the other members of the clan or the dragonborn government) knowing what they were doing. They have already found Nanna-Sin's tomb (that they rebuilt as Djerad Thymar), Marduk and Tiamat's tombs (that they found empty, logically), and Utu and Inanna's tombs. Utu's body is protected by a wall of fire and the dragonborn were unable to get closer to him. The dragonborn have the tomb heavily guarded, however.
The tomb of Inanna was different, as the body of Inanna was not as protected as Utu's. Her tomb is located below the place where the dragonborn built one of the pyramids of Djerad Kethendi, btw. (specifically, her tomb-room is connected to a section of the catacombs that's were the clanless (thrikominaki) dragonborn are interred).
The patriarch of clan Kanjentellequor, Baishir, and his two sons, tried to resurrect Inanna with a spell that could have controlled her as well (I guess, to try to gain more power?), because nothing could "possa-bly" go wrong, right? Well, things went wrong and they were unable to correctly resurrect her, and all of Inanna's consciousness and divinity were transferred to a cat (lol). Cat-Inanna wasn't happy with all this stuff, and used her powers (however diminished) to influence Baishir's oldest son, Lahar (Bahar? Mahar?) and made his passions go wild, and in this state he killed his father and his younger brother (and a dragonborn female who was helping them), and the cat uses this opportunity to flee and gets lost in Djerad Kethendi, despite Lahar's best efforts to locate it.
Then we are on Ash Day (no date for the day given) of 1496 DR, a year or so after the dragonborn killed Gilgeam. Ash Day is the day that dragonborn celebrate their independence from the dragon lords of Abeir and make their marriage contracts with a big festival. A group of young dragonborn that were looking for their potential grooms/brides, by whims of fate found the cat and followed it to the tomb. There, they learn the truth of what happened, and Cat-Inanna chooses (as in, makes a Chosen) one of the young dragonborn, Verthisathurgiesh Hencin, to try to do what Enlil did with Dumuzi and return as a full goddess (Hencin influences her to become a female dragonborn goddess, the same way Dumuzi influenced Enlil into becoming a dragonborn warrior).
The youngs then go and tell it to the Adjudicators (Tymanther's equivalent to the War Wizards of Cormyr), that are like the police force of the dragonborn. Lahar is arrested and clan Kanjentellequor gets patriarch-less (Baishir is death and Lahar was the next on line for the patriach/matriarch seat, plus he killed his brother, leaving no one next in line).
As an aside, Inanna is not that happy that the dragonborn are worshiping Enlil, lol. Seems things between them ended badly before the Battle of the Gods.
So, in the political landscape of things, now three dragonborn clans have their "own personal" gods. Daardendrien has Bahamut/Marduk (as Medrash is basically in charge of the Platinum Cadre by the end of the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels, and I can see the dragonborn saying now that the Platinum Cadre and Bahamut's fate are "Daardendrien's"); Kepeshkmolik has Enlil (as Dumuzi is Kepeshkmolik), and now Verthisathurgiesh now has Inanna. And I'm sure they are going to use them as political tools in the future.
I guess that this can work even if we don't kill Gilgeam (that I don't see WotC doing that canonically), and the Kanjentellequor trying to revive and control Untheran gods makes more sense if they want to use them as weapons against Gilgeam. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 04 Jul 2024 : 19:51:24
I have to rewatch the whole thing, because yes, 4 hours is too much and between my bad hearing, my non-native English and horrible AI translated transcript, I have had problems to understand the whole thing (I'm not sure if the Kanjentellequor's Scion is Bahar, Lahar or Mahar, lol), but IIRC, Inanna appears around the 3:50 hour mark.
Anyways, the adventure ends with Hencin, one of the characters, being the potential chosen of Inanna, and clan Kanjentellequor being patriarch-less, lol |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Jul 2024 : 01:32:46
Hmmm... I am interested, but I don't want to sit through 4 hours of this. What I wonder is how does she portray Inanna. From what I've seen, treatments of Inanna are very different. Any point I should fast forward to? |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 02 Jul 2024 : 06:37:43
A bit of update on this, but Erin Evans ran an special adventure set in Tymanther in 2020, known as the Qal Contracts Murder. Long story short, there is a series of murders in Djerad Kethendi just the same day the dragonborn are celebrating their Qal (marriage) contracts. There are some details about the city of Djerad Kethendi, and some stuff that affects the future of clan Kanjentellequor, but the stuff that I found most interesting is that:
1. Erin killed Gilgeam off-screen. Basically, the dragonborn behead him in some battle and that was all, lol. His followers fled to the ruins of Messemprar. The adventure takes place after this event.
2. By the end of the adventure, the players found the vestige of Inanna, and there is a hint that maybe Inanna would be fully revived and added to the "Tymantheran pantheon" (currently, just Bahamut, Enlil and Tiamat). - I think sleyvas would be interested in this, lol
For those interested, the game was recorded on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyC4csDIdRQ
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 May 2023 : 18:34:49
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The new Ed video has unveiled a lot of info that will benefit my campaign. Glolmarra will definitely will be part of my campaign, as I always wondered what was located in the Underdark below the Old Empires. Also, weird like undeads and a super blue dragon!
https://youtu.be/fGDt-VLY1Ms
Thanks... so notes on the "super blue dragon"... name is Meirytraukkrul (Meer for short) and when the Untheric manifestation of Ki (goddess of Nature) lay dying during the orcgate wars, devoured the manifestation's torso. She gained the ability to basically phase through earth and see through it while doing so, summon a half dozen "monsters" every round to fight for her, regenerate 4d4 hit points a round. She also gains some bit of Ki's personality. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 22 May 2023 : 00:29:37
The new Ed video has unveiled a lot of info that will benefit my campaign. Glolmarra will definitely will be part of my campaign, as I always wondered what was located in the Underdark below the Old Empires. Also, weird like undeads and a super blue dragon!
https://youtu.be/fGDt-VLY1Ms |
| Vinzor Burrow |
Posted - 15 Apr 2023 : 23:28:16
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, I was thinking that perhaps the Spellplague may have suspended the inhabitants of Messemprar in stasis, and they were released in the Second Sundering. This way, we can use Messemprar as it was in 3e. Obviously this means I have to work on their current status, their stance on Gilgeam and the Untherans in Unthalass, etc.
As always, ideas are welcome!
Gilgeam did form a pact with Grazzt, so that could easily be seen as evil, regardless of what his intentions were |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Apr 2023 : 21:49:54
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I like the idea about Ptah. Actually, we can use both ideas and say that the artifact brought half of the city to the Astral Plane (timeless place, so the untherans there wouldn't have aged). I say half of the city, so the other half are the ruins that canonically existed in the place during 4e. Then, during the SS, Ao brought back the city (that was semi-restored by the untherans during their timeless stance in the Astral). Now, the Messemprar untherans have to deal with a guy they though they had rid off in the past.
Though, it makes me wonder why Ptah would care about the untherans and did nothing about the mulhorandi.
Again, I would say it has to do with the artifact itself and Ptah putting an "anti-theft" ward on it. That being said, it might not have even been just Ptah. If we were to say that the artifact were the Galley of the Gods, then its believed that this artifact was created by an Untheric god Enki who CHOSE to NOT come to Toril with the other Untheric gods (or rather, he chose not to split off a portion of himself into a separate manifestation). So, maybe Enki put a ward on it that prevents the ship from leaving "this reality"... as Abeir is in some other weird phase of the universe. Enki was a god of knowledge, crafts, but also rivers and earth (so he would have been a bit redundant with Ishtar... which may have been why he didn't come). So, throwing it out there, the galley of the gods may have been a joint creation of Enki and Ptah to make a ship which could sail the astral seas.
So, in this idea, maybe the people of Messemprar come back, but with a fervent worship of Ptah and Enki as gods of craftsmanship, wildspace, etc.... and maybe they taught their people in the meantime to not like Gilgeam. The first thoughts I have there would be "and they have a lot of artificers", but I think their crafting should be more of crafting wood, stone, cloth, paper, etc... Maybe some of their people are the wizards that have pet books from one of the 5e sources. I also like them coming back using magic in the form seen in the DM's guild book "Priestess: Ancient World Divine Class"... basically they have to sacrifice to and be near a divine idol of their deities to get their spells, and some learn to animate these idols for really really short spans... and the idols have to be bigger and more extravagant to get back higher level spell slots. I picture something where golems carry horse sized idols on a metal sled following priests around the countryside. Not a requirement mind you, but something to make a change that will definitely be something people may not be used to. The reason why they maybe have to use this innately weaker form of divine magic is because Enki and Ptah both are not officially sanctioned realms gods, and they're using this method to bypass Ao's strictures. Just a thought. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 13 Apr 2023 : 21:26:46
I like the idea about Ptah. Actually, we can use both ideas and say that the artifact brought half of the city to the Astral Plane (timeless place, so the untherans there wouldn't have aged). I say half of the city, so the other half are the ruins that canonically existed in the place during 4e. Then, during the SS, Ao brought back the city (that was semi-restored by the untherans during their timeless stance in the Astral). Now, the Messemprar untherans have to deal with a guy they though they had rid off in the past.
Though, it makes me wonder why Ptah would care about the untherans and did nothing about the mulhorandi. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Apr 2023 : 14:51:57
I look at it this way... we know SOME things went to the Feywild .... we know SOME things went to Abeir .... so I don't have a problem saying that some places went to other worlds, other planes, etc....
Now, along those lines... I personally also have no problem with sending Messemprar even to other campaign worlds. For instance, in Mystara there is the "hollow world", which brings cultures there and keeps them in a kind of stasis (they still function, but they don't significantly change). They could have gone there (not necessarily great, but its an idea worth a ponder... putting them near the Nithians could be interesting).
Another idea might be that there was a temple of Ptah in the city (and despite some things, there ARE references to Ptah's temples in the realms) and he pulled the city to the original world where the Mulan people were stolen from (which may or may not be earth... I prefer not). This may not even have been of his knowledge and could have been something like a failsafe on an artifact like the ship of the gods which carried the gods to Toril. They wouldn't even necessarily have gone to the original home world... they could have had their bit of land and its surrounding territory transferred into wildspace and hooked onto something like a very large asteroid. Without spelljamming vessels they may have been trapped there for a bit, but you could just as well have them come back with several flying pyramids and turn their little section of the world into people aware of spelljamming.
That all being said, we do know that a good portion of Unther went to Abeir, and we also have some references that the Untheric peoples were being lorded over by the Mulhorandi.... so anything you do should be relatively small scale. |
|
|
