| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Jul 2020 : 17:52:26
In another thread we were discussing this
Originally posted by BadCatMan
On Katashaka, an interesting connection is the Ebony Queen, a ship that sails to the elemental planes. The amazon warriors on board seem to come from Katashaka, so it's likely the rest of the crew and the even the ship itself do too.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Katashaka
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ebony_Queen
and then later this
Thank Look-a-troopa for connecting to the Ebony Queen at the wiki, it was quite an impressive leap. :)
And I should clarify that while Gold & Glory only refers to a distant, unnamed island, it's Dragon Annual #4's "Speaking in Tongues" that has the early Tabaxi and the Anaconda come from a "Dark Continent" (a hypothesised sub-Saharan-like island, and itself a generic Africa-style setting proposed in an earlier Dragon). Serpent Kingdoms expanded on the Tabaxi origins and The Grand History of the Realms went further and finally named Katashaka. So, linking the chain, I concluded the Dark Continent was Katashaka.
An alternative, though, is Akota, both a city in Zakhara (perhaps a colony or trade enclave) and a country somewhere well outside in Zakhara. I imagine one of the smaller continents/islands between Zakhara and Katashaka, if not on or part of Katashaka itself.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Akota
Looking further into the Ebony Queen, Captain Soot is an ajami mage, and an ajami is an outlander or foreigner to Zakhara. So, it's very likely he also comes from Katashaka. Soot is also lucky enough to be considered an honorary genie. There are also two gnome sea mages who could come from the same place.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Soot
With that, I picture modern Katashaka as being highly magically advanced, with ships that go to the elemental planes, though the Anaconda might hide their might from Faerun, hence their secrecy. A Torilian Wakanda, perhaps.
I was bringing up how the "weretiger" reference might be that these Anaconda folk might actually be shapechanging tiger and snake Katanga from Malatra and that these two sections of the world (Malatra and Katashaka) may share a link. I also mentioned that Malatra possessed a culture that's since failed of "the ancient Nubari" which are "spelljamming humans" who apparently fled some enemy to come hide on Toril on a plateau in Malatra thousands of years ago. To note the "ancient Nubari" have only 3 instead of 4 fingers and possess larger skulls, so they may be an offshoot human race like the githyanki/githzerai/githvyrik. These "ancient Nubari" then later suffer some issue and begin to die out, but then they breed with the local human populace, and thus the modern Nubari humans exist.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Nubari_(ancient)
Where I'm proposing we take this is that we define that the "ancient Nubari" settled in several places. All of these places should be remote holdfasts which are very defensible. We also define that the reason they failed in Malatra is that their old enemy found them and assaulted these holdfasts. Their last remaining hold out should be in Katashaka.
So, who were these great enemies? The Arcane. They were pissed off because the Nubari were attempting to wiggle their way into the market for the creation of spelljamming helms. Or Perhaps the Nubari had found and assaulted the Arcane's home world. Maybe both. So, the Nubari retreat to realmspace millenia ago and take up residence in a bunch of places like the moon, the Wu Pi Te Shao Mountains, this illusion covered isle of Nimbral, the island of Machukara in Wa territory, the Malatran Plateau, southern Katashaka in the lands surrounded with nyama-nummo, and maybe even some places like mount mixhuacan in Maztica. In most of these places, they destroyed the Nubari, or forced them into hiding. However, we can use things like the island of Machukara to explain Wa both developing an interest in spelljamming AND developing their own spelljamming technology. Perhaps they stumbled across some old Nubari tech. Same with the red wizards developing their own helm. Perhaps the moon personnel that are there now arrived to find docks already existing, because the Nubari held those docks before getting wiped out by mercenaries of the arcane. It might also help explain away that massive illusion on the moon.
It could be fun to develop this technomagical society, and maybe like the arcane themselves, there are few Nubari with a presence there, but they're teaching things to the humans. Maybe they've adapted their spelljammers to also travel the inner planes. Maybe they work differently than spelljamming helms. What ideas come to your mind after this?
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| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Baltas |
Posted - 15 Jul 2020 : 17:32:27
With Ancient Nubari, it's indeed interesting they resemble various ideas of advanced evolved humans, either from future, or evolving on another planet, and influencing human evolution (ie Ancients from Stargate, Engineers from Prometheus/Alien series etc.).
Their long heads remind me, and are probably inspired by elongated human skulls,who seem to be so beyond the possibility of doing that via bindings from childhood, like visible in the Paracas Skulls.
The fact the Ancient Nubari have a reduced number of fingers, also remind me of the fact we are slowly losing the 4th finger (5th with the thumb) in evolution:
https://youtu.be/YYBGee6kqTo?t=254 |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Jul 2020 : 16:33:38
Here's the canon information on the "Ancient Ones" of Anchorome, which basically goes to show that not all of these guys need to be benevolent and kind as their generations pass. It can be worth it to sit down and holistically define where all these guys may have settled. The different satellite groups could have gone in different directions as time passed, and perhaps one reason they might choose to go with a particular colony might have to do with ethical outlook.
There were people in Sun Canyon, and throughout the Pasocada Basin, before the Azuposi, but almost nothing is known of them. Veiled legends and tales are all that is left to pass on cryptic hints of the Ancients. culture and fate. Some clues to their nature may be found in the ruins of Esh Alakar.
The tale of the City of Gold as told in Maztica, for instance, contains frequent references to the Ancient Ones. The story, of course, has been altered and overlaid with Maztican mythic imagery. The Golden Man is part of the Maztican creation story, and their storytellers have found it natural to blend that tale with the legends of the Ancient Ones and the City of Gold.
When men in the north found the gods' man of gold, they bowed down in worship before him, believing the man of gold to be a god. The true gods became angered and destroyed the blasphemers.
Once again men found the man of gold, but the sight of so much precious metal filled them with greed. They brought down the man of gold and melted him down to make jewelry and precious objects with which to adorn themselves. "Now", they said to themselves, "we are wealthy, never again shall we need to work" But when everyone had gold, its value was small and no one would work, for they believed themselves wealthy, and rich people need not work. Hunger thus came, and strife. Evil men stole and killed, not just to survive, but to hoard as much precious gold as possible.
This passage of the Maztican tale describes the Ancient Ones. It is, of course, cryptic and metaphorical and would seem to describe two different peoples, though in reality they are the same. The passage condenses a millennium of time into a few short lines. The point is simple: people found a place of plenty, but it made them complacent and selfish. The result was the destruction of an entire culture and people.
The Ancient Ones had discovered micha and learned how to use its power over the spirits. Their culture and their magics attained such astonishing heights that even the secrets of spelljamming were tapped by a remarkable few.
But, as will happen when there is a great concentration of power, the power was abused. Men exploited the treasure of micha, enslaving many spirits and angering many more. Evil begets evil, and then turns to feed upon itself. The ancient sorcerers sought mastery over each other, and fought for control of the precious micha and the spirits. The conclusion of their raging battles was the obliteration of the Ancient.s culture and waste was laid to the entire Pasocada Basin. The basin had once been lush territory, as fertile as any of the valleys to the south. The good spirits, such as those who bring rain and fertility, were now loath to visit the basin.
When the men were gone the spirits they had enslaved were once again free to roam the desolation. Many still harbor great hatred for humankind to this day, out of resentment for their ancient bondage. These are the desert spirits who assault travelers with thirst and hot winds.
When the ancestors of the Azuposi came to the Pasocada Basin they possessed a more humble and reverential attitude toward the spirit world. Consequently, they made friends among the spirits.Masauwu, chief among them. These powerful beings helped the Azuposi survive the environmental destruction left by the Ancients. folly, and helped them to build a new culture. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Jul 2020 : 16:20:34
So, after we explore the possibility of "are these Nubari the original Human Creator Race" question, what do we do with it?
Well, what did they create? What was their "magic" like? They are noted as being not much more powerful than modern day, which makes it possible to introduce them without them dominating the world. Further, I propose that what they created are the shapechangers of the world, in the form of hengeyokai, katanga, etc.. Basically, human looking people who are able to shapechange into normal animals. Some may have a hybrid form. I'll also put out there that maybe they also created the spirit folk who are bonded with with natural elements like river spirits, mountain spirits, etc... So, their magics are spirit based magics like incarnum, shamanism, and possibly pact based magic with spirit beings similar to binders or with other beings like a sha'ir working with a genie. I also propose that they had psionics.
Unlike other parts of the world, they've not been drawn to metallurgy so much because their culture had control of "ceramic" like materials that were very strong. In some respects, that sounds like glassteel, and this fits in very well with a lot of what Seethyr and I have been doing with Anchorome, Maztica, Katashaka, and what's been done with Nimbral. It might be worth exploring some other possibilities for a different type of "ceramic" material than glassteel and what its properties are. Some might work with magic in various ways. The Spellweavers also have a ceramic like material that they use that's very durable, and perhaps both groups developed similar but different materials, and this information was shared at some point.
Which going to the idea of the spellweavers, one idea we've had put forth is that in Anchorome there was a society of Spellweavers in what is now the ruined city of Esh Alakar. The city exists to this day, so perhaps its composed of this material, and maybe its much more durable than say metal, wood, or brick construction of "modern" day. The spellweavers weren't necessarily a "creator race", because they weren't creating new races, BUT they were powerful. This city also has a canon aspect of its back history that meshes well with this idea of both the spellweavers and the Nubari. Basically, canonically this city of Esh Alakar was home to "humans" known as the "Ancient Ones" at one point. These "Ancient Ones" weren't necessarily evil to start out, but they discovered the spirit magic of Micha in "the golden man" and they turned to evil. Many of these "Esh Alakarans" were transformed to stone, turned into snakes by their enemies that possess marks of magic on them that have passed to their descendant snakes, trapped via imprisonment in stasis, or survive on as "Pasocada Ghosts". Many of these "Esh Alakarans" were killed by "stone golems" which still inhabit the ruins to this day (possibly basal golems created by bloodforges?).
So, the idea would be that the weavers were in the area long ago, and the Nubari were working with them. This may have been after the spellweaver civilization had fallen and only a few remained, so they needed servants that didn't need constant supervision. Perhaps the Nubari were captured and forced into servitude by the weavers (for again, the Nubari are only a little more powerful than modern day people can achieve). Eventually, these Nubari "Ancient Ones" rise up and throw off the yoke of the remaining weavers. But the weavers knew the nature of humans who seek power, and they fed them knowledge of magics like micha that gave them mastery over spirits. Eventually the "Ancient Ones" of this group sought to enslave the spirits of their region and the repercussions were that the spirits turned on their society and they fell (i.e. not everything needs to be the Arcane swooping in and destroying these ancient Nubari). At some point some of these "Ancient Ones" were experimenting with the surrounding population, and they actually created a new race of "Hill Giants" that are Azuposi humans who have been increased in size.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Jul 2020 : 13:48:05
Below is the original source material from the Malatra Living Jungle Campaign Player Information Guide, just to give some "canon" information on the Nubari without me misreading/misinterpreting such. Note, I had to retype it, so there may be a typo that I may have missed or somesuch.
The goal as I see it to a degree would be to equate the Ancient Nubari to the original "Human" Creator Race we've heard about, but that at the same time there were indigenous humans living caveman existences at the time. We see the "primitive human tribes" listed on the map in the GHotR page 6 for around -31500, and that appears to be in the land that we're agreeing to call Katashaka. So, possibly down in this area were the "primitive" humans and the Nubari civilization in hiding (to note, they may have ALSO been in other places at this time as well, and its my assumption that in fact they were.
The ancient Nubari were a very tall and lithe race of humans, dark brown of skin and golden yellow of eye. While still essentially human, the ancients had slightly larger heads, tapering to an elongated crown, and but three fingers and a thumb on each hand (missing the "normal" human pinky). They were a people of art and magic, science and technology
Nubari technology was quite advanced in some ways, but mostly it was simply alien to, not superior to, the current technology of Toril's most advanced nations. For instance, though they used metal for ornamentation, the Nubari had developed a fantastically hard form of ceramic which they used for tools such as knives. Traditional weapons were unknown to them, as they lived a sort of Utopian existence, using their magical technology to live with - rather than agaainst - nature.
The ancients were a celestial race, traveling among several home worlds shared by other spelljamming peoples. Each of these worlds was a veritable paradise, so while the Nubari knew of Abeir-Toril for millennia, they deemed the planet unworthy of interest when so many more beautiful worlds were theirs for the visiting.
In all the crystal spheres, there are gods of strife and misfortune. Ultimately, then, the paradisiacal existence of the Nubari came to an end, as war came to the Nubari and their neighbors. As in every war, the worst aspects of the people came to the fore, and even the otherwise peaceful Nubari found themselves embroiled in conflict.
One faction of the Nubari, however, refused to give in to conflict. The chose to flee the war, making no claim to any of the worlds disputed by the others. Rather, they came to Abeir-Toril.
Arriving in great spelljammers, the Ancients barely escaped the powerful invasion fleet which conquered the last world they had inhabited. Resolving not to duplicate the mistakes of their own ancestors, the Ancients sword to form a society without war. In this, they were largely successful. They chose the central jungle of Malatra as their home, reasoning that it would not seem a desirable location to the indigenous races of the planet. To dissuade visitors further, they devised a great magic to raise the land they had chosen far above the rest of the jungle floor, creating a vast, insurmountable plateau.
It was an ideal place for them to live, since - once carefully removed from the inhabited regions - the surrounding dinosaur population could not easily climb the high cliffs surrounding the plateau, and neither would the Ancients disrupt the natural course of indigenous life on the planet. This was their new paradise. They practiced their philosophy of non-violence very strictly, never killing the natural predators which remained in their lands, but learning to live in harmony with the animals and the land.
The Ancients began to create their vision of a Utopian world. Unknown to them, they were not as alone as they had hoped. River and bamboo spirits had lived in the area for centures. At the arrival of the Ancients, they hid. Seeing that the newcomers seemed peaceful enough, the spirits did not trouble them, nor did they approach to greet them. Each lived in harmony with the other, the Ancients never knowing of their neighbors.
The newcomer culture throve and grew, ever mindful of keeping itself secret. But Tymora and Beshaba forever quarrel over Utopias, and Lady Luck cannot forever hold out against Black Bess. So, eventually disaster struck.
The nature of the disaster is a mystery. It may have been a natural disaster, an incredily fast plague, or even a magical experiment gone awry. Whatever it was, it left the surviving Nubari without their former civilization, reducing them to a primitive existence. The disaster also destroyed most of the Nubari culture, buildings, and knowledge. For whatever reason, the surviving Nubari fled the fragments of their homes and took to life in the jungles and plains.
Years later, during a long but temporary decrease in the carnivor population surrounding the plateau, some of the natives of Toril - katanga, humans, and korobukur - explored far enough to reach and even ascend the plateau. How these people won past the cliffs and magical barriers is a mystery, though korobokuru legend speaks of a great and long exodus from a distant homeland, including a journey through sunless and moonless paths. {Sleyvas' notes: so, either via underdark tunnels like how people came to Maztica and Anchorome OR via possibly something like fey crossroads and backroads... possibly the river and bamboo spirits managed such magical travel methods OR a combination of these two}.
These wanderers stayed with the Nubari of the plateau, either because they chose to remain or because they could not return. The ancient humans and Nubari gradually inter-bred, eventually becoming the new race of Nubari which inhabit the Living Jungle today. The korobukuru throve in this land, and the katanga took to the land as naturally as if they'd always been there.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Jul 2020 : 13:35:03
Been thinking more on the "extra joint" in the hand idea and the concept of the Arcane and Nubari being somehow "related". Perhaps its not so much "related" as "from the same planet". Or perhaps they are related literally, and one group "changed" from the other somehow. The Arcane had five fingers and a thumb, all fingers with a third joint on them all and the thumb a second joint, and were giant (12' tall) and blue skinned on this world (just now noting, the original Arcane PICTURE showed an extra finger, but not an extra joint on those fingers.... but the text says extra joint... best to make both true). The Nubari are also noted as being "very tall" with "elongated heads" and had 3 fingers and a thumb, all fingers with a third joint and the thumb a second joint. So, how tall is "very tall"... 7 feet? 8 feet? 12 feet like the Arcane? If they are related, why did one group end up with 2 more fingers than the other? Grafting for more "spellcasting ability? Why is one blue skinned and the other brown? Just a case like humanity in our own world? If this is true though, then we'd be saying that the Arcane are relatives of humans. Maybe its better if its same home world, but not same race.
These Nubari then become the original "human creator race" that we hear about, but know nothing of in this theory. So, in theory, they've been around since Pre-Sundering possibly. Again, mostly throwing out ideas for feedback or improvement. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Jul 2020 : 09:41:32
This discussion has me also thinking about Halruaa as well, given that it has what looks to be like something "that fell from the heavens", and its isolated by mountains, etc... Makes me wonder if it too may not have long ago have been a settlement that was wiped out. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Jul 2020 : 09:36:06
Yeah, you've got the gist of my idea, regarding the Wu Pi Te Shao. It would have formerly have been a Nubari "base". So, possibly the kingdom of Nix comes about BECAUSE they were the mercenaries brought in by the Arcane to clear out the Wu Pi Te Shao base. The Arcane then pay Nix to be its "border guards" in essence afterward because goblins can be rented for cheap (especially if they're essentially just taking up residence).
Along these lines, I know there's some Utopia like place in the Utter East that's hidden from one of the novels (Faces of deception) that's LIKE Shang Gri La. Its a place that knows no violence and its called Langdarma. It was created by the "Serene Abhirati, Mother of Peace and Beauty" before she "departed" like the other "Serene Ones". She left behind a deva called "The Sannyasi" to look over the humans that remained and provide them divine energy for spellcasting. But there were all these rules, like only one healer per village in Langdarma, because the "divine energy" was limited. It almost sounds like this could be a Nubari settlement as well, but the Nubari left and there's a deva using some "artifact" they left behind to dole out spellcasting energy (possibly the "fountain of infinite grace" that is mentioned in the novel). These Nubari people might have had something to do with the Mar race of humans of the Utter East.
Interesting that idea of possibly linking the Abbalaya to the Nubari and that you bring up hand mutations. Honestly, I had kind of been playing with the idea that the Arcane and the Nubari were possibly offshoots of the same peoples as well (but the Arcane have six fingers and an extra finger joint). All 3 are differently colored for skin, but maybe that's not unusual for their race and they run a gamut of skin colors. I don't know that I would link the Arcane to the Nubari, but yes, I think I would link the Nubari and the Abbalaya. Maybe the Abbalaya are the result of breeding Nubari and human in the region, such that they got the 4th finger (like the Nubari descendants of Malatra did ). So, maybe we could add in that the ancient Nubari had 3 fingers, but an extra finger joint. I kind of wonder now if Savras wasn't an Abbalaya before ascending to godhood.
Also, the various "Lords" of the "Circle of Order" of the Utter East may have been Nubari as well (i.e. Lord of Lands, Tide, Flame, etc...) and perhaps these same beings had something to do with the bloodforges (or perhaps the bloodforges were brought in by the arcane to create troops to run the nubari out).
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| BadCatMan |
Posted - 15 Jul 2020 : 03:34:05
I'm afraid I don't have any more ideas to add to that, as I don't know Spelljamming or Malatra at all well, apart from what I've read on the wiki.
I do know the Wu Pi Te Shao Mountains though. I suppose in your outline the Dock was a former Nubari base, taken over and converted by the Arcane? It's said to lie in "the middle of the largest glacial mass within the Wu Pi Te Shao Mountains" (Realmspace p20). I don't know if the Dock has ever been canonically been pinned to a map. Based on my efforts to sort out the WPTS and Yehimal and various subranges, I found the WPTS was largely the southern part of the Yehimal. Looking at the maps, the WPTS has two big similarly sized glaciers, and I'd say the biggest is the southern one.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wu_Pi_Te_Shao_Mountains
(Sorry, no map on the article yet, it was a PITA at the time.)
Coincidentally, that glacier is also roughly the site of the Kingdom of Nix from the Blood & Magic game. That's a "goblin" kingdom, but the game's depictions of various monsters aren't based in D&D; it could be hobgoblin or orc.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kingdom_of_Nix
It's tempting to say the Dock and Nix are neighbours, perhaps even trade with each other, and Nix looks weird enough to say it came from space. Under your storyline, you might say the area was a former Ancient Nubari settlement before they were forced out.
Tying it back, the Lords of Creation pantheon of the Kuong Kingdom of Malatra are said to be "Adopted from a southwestern culture beyond the bounds of Kara-Tur..." (KTCS vol. 2 p105). I've always figured that would be from the Utter East or Sempadan Forest, them being immediately southwest and outside of Kara-Tur. Moreover, it's said "The Malatra lands were ruled after their creation by near-demigods, the powerful creations of Yama. Through the centuries, these god-touched men lessened in stature, and their descendents are the ordinary humans who populate the jungles today. In the Kuong Kingdom this heavenly descent is most clearly remembered: in that theocracy, priest-kings are head of the church as well as of Civil government, and are believed to be divine direct descendents of the Lords of Creation." That pretty much is the story of the Nubari on the Malatran Plateau, and is probably the basis for the Living Jungle lore. These near-demigods must be the Ancient Nubari, and the Lords of Creation are either them or their gods, which the KTCS has be the Indian pantheon.
I haven't been table to connect any more canon lore to Katashaka however, beyond what's in the wiki article.
An interesting parallel to the Nubari might be the Abbalaya, both advanced offshoots of humanity with hand mutations (three fingers for the Nubari, extra finger joints for the Abbalaya):
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Abbalaya |
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