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Originally posted by Irennan

That's actually some neat suggestion, and intuitive too. Thanks for sharing.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Yeah, that's a positive and creative mindset; I wasn't arguing against trying to turn the Spellplague stuff into something that can work in your game (and Ao's wanting to move gods between Abeir and Toril is interesting, though I'm having troubles figuring out why he would want to do it in such a destructive way).

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Originally posted by Irennan

Props to you, Sleyvas, for coming up with such intricate explanations; I especially like the part about dream magic being used to restore some deities (though I'm generally fond of dream/mind shenanigans to affect reality), and the drow pantheon working to free some aspects from Lolth, like Zinzerena, which would explain her return in a really cool way. Though--unfortunately--Idk if it makes sense for Eilistraee to take part in those, not because she wouldn't, but because Ed explained that she remained on Toril and was powerless at the time. Regarding Vhaeraun and Lolth trapping him, or Vhaeraun giving up his freedom for Malyk (not sure if in-character for Vhaeraun, but w/e), this could work as a narrative, if 1)his followers didn't all of sudden become obedient and threw millennia of mindset and resistance out of the window 2)it was made clear in the source, and 3)it was made clear that Malyk's and Vhaeraun's churches (all of his old guard, and even those among his new followers who came to know of the truth from the old ones, and don't want to play nice) were working together to free him. Throw in Eilistraee too, given that it's what she would do, that Ed explained that she and Vhaeraun have reached a truce, and that she has the portfolio of freedom in addition to her old ones now. Zinzerena too. This way, the rebel faction would remain (it would even be enlarged, and they could be aiming to free Selvetarm too), the drow wouldn't be even more one note. Because yes, we can use this in a campaign, but WotC's presentation *utterly* fails, on all fronts (and is also incompatible with any explanation, because it straught retcons stuff).

All of this also makes me think how bad of a plot device the Spellplague was, that you have to come up with such convoluted theories to use it in a constructive manner that ties in with previous lore, and that even this way, it keeps failing. For example, we know Mystra knew of the Spellplague (through Savras, or however she learned about it)--if there were so many deities willing to come together and fix it, why didn't the just prevent it setting a trap for Cyric or something? It's the logical choice tbh. Ed had to come up with the fact that the renewal of the Weave was needed, but even in his version, it wouldn't have been catastrophic, and Cyric was the unexpected factor that led to the cataclysm.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Selvetarm's already there for that storyline. Even if WotC hadn't been ingoring LP ever since it was published, changing Vhaeraun like that is a bad development, worldbuilding-wise. Not only it sh*ts on his core concept, but brings redundancy, and makes the drow even more ridiculously one-note. Exploring a theoretical consequence of LP, Vhaeraun wouldn't have just been defeated, he would have become loyal, obedient, etc... He's even more passive than Selvetarm, who at least hates Lolth! Bsides, as I said, MToF presentes this as if it had always been the case.

The drow are already stupidly one note, it makes no sense for Lolth to be where she is (talk about exploring consequences, the consequences of Lolth having a completely idiotic, self-destructive society are never explored; everything goes back to how it was in the beginning whenever things go "wrong" for her. WoTSQ, for example, was a non-story). Vhaeraun's culture and opposition really didn't need to disappear in addition to that. As I said, WotC brought the hot situation they're in on themselves.

Re: Ed's quote, what follows is from Ed. Ofc, not even this is official. WotC is outright ignoring everything, as I said. They even retconned Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as Lolth's&Corellon's kids, and Selvetarm as Vhaeraun's son; claimed that drow souls just go poof after their death, etc...

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[...]Mortals in the Realms can rarely know the doings and specifics of the gods with certainty, because clergies and even the gods themselves sometimes avoid the truth, or the whole truth, or slant what they say so much. So it is with the “deaths” of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Vhaeraun entered Eilistraee’s realm and sought to destroy her, but perished there by her hand, and she subsumed his portfolios—or so the story spread among drow. Most assumed that meant she became the drow deity of thievery, but in truth, Eilistraee (who pronounces her own name “AISLE-iss-try-ee,” by the way) defeated Vhaeraun with Mystra’s indirect aid [Mystra IS the Weave, and it was the Weave that frustrated and drank Vhaeraun’s magics, but augmented those of Eilistraee] but did not slay her brother. Rather, she trapped his sentience within the Weave, leaving him in an “endless dream” engineered by Mystra, who enfolded him. In this dream, Mystra slowly convinced Vhaeraun to cooperate in a pact with herself and Eilistraee so that they could all survive what was to come: the Sundering, wherein both Eilistraee and Mystra would be “slain,” magic would go wild, and the worlds of Abeir and Toril would pass through each other and then be sundered.

Eilistraee emerged from her battle with her brother as The Masked Lady, and fulfilled her own portfolios of song, beauty, dance, swordwork, hunting, moonlight, and those of her brother, too: thievery, trickery, drow poisoners and poisons, drow males, and evil doings in the surface world. The death of Qilué Veladorn robbed her of some of her divine essence for a time (it leaked into the Weave, and only returned to her when Mystra herself recovered and could direct it back to its rightful home), but Eilistraee wasn’t slain, merely reduced to manifestations.

So from the end of 1375 to the summer of 1379, The Masked Lady has her “full” powers, and from late Flamerule of 1379 to the same month in 1489 DR, she is much reduced, being seen by mortals almost exclusively as her manifestation of a moving black mask outlined in a silver radiance and with two eyes of silver flame, that appears and silently guides (by pointing and touching and by imparting visions). After Flamerule 1489, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are separate deities with the same powers and portfolios they had before 1375, but a new understanding, respect, and even friendship for each other. Some of their followers still war with each other, but the two deities do not. Thus far, Eilistraee’s teachings after the Sundering are the same as before the Sundering.

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http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=22#476639

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Originally posted by Irennan

I suspect the only reason why WotC did that, is that RAS's narrative was pushing Drizzt as the inspiration and savior of the drow males back in 2017-2018, when the MToF was being written.

WotC has always shafted drow lore and the other drow factions in the name of "muh Drizzt", ever since mid 3e.

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[...]Mortals in the Realms can rarely know the doings and specifics of the gods with certainty, because clergies and even the gods themselves sometimes avoid the truth, or the whole truth, or slant what they say so much. So it is with the “deaths” of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Vhaeraun entered Eilistraee’s realm and sought to destroy her, but perished there by her hand, and she subsumed his portfolios—or so the story spread among drow. Most assumed that meant she became the drow deity of thievery, but in truth, Eilistraee (who pronounces her own name “AISLE-iss-try-ee,” by the way) defeated Vhaeraun with Mystra’s indirect aid [Mystra IS the Weave, and it was the Weave that frustrated and drank Vhaeraun’s magics, but augmented those of Eilistraee] but did not slay her brother. Rather, she trapped his sentience within the Weave, leaving him in an “endless dream” engineered by Mystra, who enfolded him. In this dream, Mystra slowly convinced Vhaeraun to cooperate in a pact with herself and Eilistraee so that they could all survive what was to come: the Sundering, wherein both Eilistraee and Mystra would be “slain,” magic would go wild, and the worlds of Abeir and Toril would pass through each other and then be sundered.

Eilistraee emerged from her battle with her brother as The Masked Lady, and fulfilled her own portfolios of song, beauty, dance, swordwork, hunting, moonlight, and those of her brother, too: thievery, trickery, drow poisoners and poisons, drow males, and evil doings in the surface world. The death of Qilué Veladorn robbed her of some of her divine essence for a time (it leaked into the Weave, and only returned to her when Mystra herself recovered and could direct it back to its rightful home), but Eilistraee wasn’t slain, merely reduced to manifestations.

So from the end of 1375 to the summer of 1379, The Masked Lady has her “full” powers, and from late Flamerule of 1379 to the same month in 1489 DR, she is much reduced, being seen by mortals almost exclusively as her manifestation of a moving black mask outlined in a silver radiance and with two eyes of silver flame, that appears and silently guides (by pointing and touching and by imparting visions). After Flamerule 1489, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are separate deities with the same powers and portfolios they had before 1375, but a new understanding, respect, and even friendship for each other. Some of their followers still war with each other, but the two deities do not. Thus far, Eilistraee’s teachings after the Sundering are the same as before the Sundering.

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Originally posted by Irennan

WotC retconned the whole LP thing, so I don't think the MToF took that in account. Ed explained how things went in regard to Eilistraee and Vhaeraun; they didn't merge (even in the novels, it was arguable), but Eilistraee temporarily took Vhaeraun's portfolio, and Mystra helped her trap her brother's "soul" in a dream within the Weave. This was part of Mystra's plan to protect her allies, like Eilistraee, though it didn't go as well as planned because 1)when Qilué was killed, as Ed recently explained, she became a Weaveghost, and brought a large part of Eilistraee's&Vhaeraun's power to the Weave (since she was acting as a really powerful avatar of Eilistraee when that happened, and Eilistraee also held Vhaeraun's portfolio at the time). The Weave was then stranded with the Spellplague, therefore sealing that power for a century, leaving Vhaeraun trapped, and Eilistraee powerless. After Mystra recovered and the Weave was restored, she gave Eilistraee and Vhaeraun their own power back. So it's not a clone as much as Vhaeraun awakening and regaining his old power.

I wouldn't say that MToF does really paint Vhaeraun as being bullied; it describes him as "what a drow male should be"--swift, deadly, obedient, and it implies--as you quote--that the origins of his mask is that he's been reduced into submission by Lolth. Which is clearly BS and a retcon, because he's been masked for a FAR longer time.

I do mind the new direction for Vhaeraun, A LOT. First, because it sh*ts on the core concept of his character and associates him with stuff that is totally antithetical to him, much like LP did with Eilistraee. Second, because the drow are SUPER dated worldbuilding, definitely not up to the modern standards. They lack nuance, their concept falls apart once you start asking yourself questions that do as much as scratching the surface. And they lend themselves to problematic interpretations and messages. Making them EVEN more one note was, in all honestly, a braindead move. MToF surely contributied to corner WotC in the situation they're now.

Seriously, they could have portrayed a loosely allied front with Eilistraee (who gained the portfolio of freedom), Vhaeraun, Malyk (with his appealing to mages, and having the protfolio of rebellion) and Zinzerena, which would have been a good opposition to Lolth, and not "LOL, only <1% follow anything other than Lolth, and we call that a nuanced race", but hey, WotC still very much was in the "b-but muh Drizzt..." camp. They totally invited the flak they're catching.

I do like your theory that links Malyk to Mystra, though. Since Ed explained in Silverfall how Mystra is interested in helping all magical creatures prosper (including drow, and Lolth only makes them wither, so it's natural for Mystra to oppose her--even more after Lolth mindlessly tried to steal the Weave and failed miserably), this probably exlains the reason of her alliance with Eilistraee (aside from Qilué), the fact that Msytra is sharing the Weave with Eilistraee (among others) post-Sundering, and the help that she gave to Vhaeraun. With that already in place, I could easily see her being tied to Malyk's re-emergence.

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Originally posted by Bladewind

I've learned to never mind retcons when they deal with myths that much. But I guess more lore on the miyeritari elves, such as descriptions of ruined temples to Eilistraee, ancient spells and their 'high magic after effects', enchanted blades and arrows lost in a High Hunt and lost songs of starlit promenades would provide ample material to expand our understanding of Eilistraee future.

I'd be disappointed if WotC decided to drop Eilistraee lore to the side.

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Originally posted by Bladewind

I've learned to never mind retcons when they deal with myths that much. But I guess more lore on the miyeritari elves, such as descriptions of ruined temples to Eilistraee, ancient spells and their 'high magic after effects', enchanted blades and arrows lost in a High Hunt and lost songs of starlit promenades would provide ample material to expand our understanding of Eilistraee future.

I'd be disappointed if WotC decided to drop Eilistraee lore to the side.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Irennan



As for change in Lolthite society, AFAIK the 4e version is exactly the same as the 3e one, so is the 5e one (with the exception that in 5e Zinzerena and Malyk are there sowing chaos and intrigues against Lolth too--Zinzererna has returned and is CN--while Vhaeraun has been retconned into Lolth's bodyguard, and Eilistraee is just her usual self, just downplayed even more than she already was).

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Vhaeraun is Lolth's bodyguard? What happened to Selvetarm, and given how against Lolth Vhaeraun is, why would he bodyguard her?

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Originally posted by Irennan



As for change in Lolthite society, AFAIK the 4e version is exactly the same as the 3e one, so is the 5e one (with the exception that in 5e Zinzerena and Malyk are there sowing chaos and intrigues against Lolth too--Zinzererna has returned and is CN--while Vhaeraun has been retconned into Lolth's bodyguard, and Eilistraee is just her usual self, just downplayed even more than she already was).

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Irennan

The Dark Elves were less than a blip on the radar. Setting aside the fact that they never made any sense for Eilistraee--that the very concept of race-changing the drow was antithetical to Eilistraee and all she stands for--according to the novel itself, only a few hundreds were transformed. This means that, even among Eilistraee's followers (a few thousands, being her a lesser goddess), only a minority was transformed--and into something that is hardly different from a wood elf.

So, the ones who were changed either remained with their fellow Eilistraean drow (and drow + elf most likely give birth to a drow, which means that they never made any noticeable difference setting-wise), or went off to mix with humans and elves (which would be the same as some wood elves moving in, so nothing relevant), or died in the Underdark. In any case, their impact would be next to 0. And I mean, they were just drow with a lighter skin, there was no big deal there. Eilistraee has never been interested in doing something like this (on the contrary, she embraced being drow, and became one of her people), so she's not creating other of them as of her re-emergence. This was the result of the will of the spirit in that Kiira, only affected those of pure Miyeritari descent (not mixed with Ilythiir, who were but a few hundreds, as stated in the novels), and stopped there.

In hindsight, it was obvious that that they would be ignored; WotC was only trying to get rid of Eilistraee and her followers, so that they wouldn't have to touch them ever more, and the way they did it--"goodness is but a shade lighter"--was something that should have never seen the light of the day in 2008.

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-Agreed, only a small, weirdly defined group would have been affected (worshipers of Eilistraee and those not somehow tainted by Wendonai's curse if I remember correctly), but it could have very easily been used as the explanation for all of the random changes that just inexplicably occurred to the Drow/Drow society during the 3e/4e transition, and even the 4e/5e transition (which I was not around for, so I'm much less familiar with what was going on). Like "Oops, this Matron Mother randomly transformed and lost all of her Drow powers and it caused some massive upheaval in [insert city they just randomly changed without explanation]". Just another missed opportunity.

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Originally posted by Irennan

The Dark Elves were less than a blip on the radar. Setting aside the fact that they never made any sense for Eilistraee--that the very concept of race-changing the drow was antithetical to Eilistraee and all she stands for--according to the novel itself, only a few hundreds were transformed. This means that, even among Eilistraee's followers (a few thousands, being her a lesser goddess), only a minority was transformed--and into something that is hardly different from a wood elf.

So, the ones who were changed either remained with their fellow Eilistraean drow (and drow + elf most likely give birth to a drow, which means that they never made any noticeable difference setting-wise), or went off to mix with humans and elves (which would be the same as some wood elves moving in, so nothing relevant), or died in the Underdark. In any case, their impact would be next to 0. And I mean, they were just drow with a lighter skin, there was no big deal there. Eilistraee has never been interested in doing something like this (on the contrary, she embraced being drow, and became one of her people), so she's not creating other of them as of her re-emergence. This was the result of the will of the spirit in that Kiira, only affected those of pure Miyeritari descent (not mixed with Ilythiir, who were but a few hundreds, as stated in the novels), and stopped there.

In hindsight, it was obvious that that they would be ignored; WotC was only trying to get rid of Eilistraee and her followers, so that they wouldn't have to touch them ever more, and the way they did it--"goodness is but a shade lighter"--was something that should have never seen the light of the day in 2008.

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Originally posted by Theodore

It makes perfect sense to me that nothing was done with it not that I agree with it mind you. It's the same reason we don't get novels anymore. Hasbro is a gaming company and they don't care about the novels. They didn't turn enough of a profit from us as readers for it to matter.

I say this as someone that bought the books hard cover and paper back and now i own them digital. A lot of our favorite authors have told us on these very forums sometimes they sold just enough to cover the advance. So I don't like it but I get it. So I'm thankful we can at least still get source books via DM's guild.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-I am honestly very surprised that literally nothing has been done with the city in the 15+ years/two editions since Blackstaff. Given when it was created, it always felt to me like there were giant flashing neon arrows pointing down on it basically shouting out "This place is gonna be important in future novel/sourcebook/adventure/web article/whatever" and then...nothing. But, the same can be said about other stuff from that point in time that seemed important but had no actual follow up, like the Dark Elves, so I guess not.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-I am honestly very surprised that literally nothing has been done with the city in the 15+ years/two editions since Blackstaff. Given when it was created, it always felt to me like there were giant flashing neon arrows pointing down on it basically shouting out "This place is gonna be important in future novel/sourcebook/adventure/web article/whatever" and then...nothing. But, the same can be said about other stuff from that point in time that seemed important but had no actual follow up, like the Dark Elves, so I guess not.

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