| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 May 2020 : 22:15:34
What do we know about slaad culture, beyond what their Monster Manual stats say?
Do they have a concept of money?
If not, how do they keep track of value?
Do they have a barter economy, a favor economy or something else?
Slaad clearly value some material things, like magical items, which other slaad might be able to make, but how do they compensate each other for their time and expertise?
What kind of goals might individual slaad have?
Slaad procreation is not sexual, but do slaad experience sexual attraction?
What do slaad do when they're at home? Especially the truly sapient ones, the green, gray, death, white and black. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 19 May 2020 : 09:46:22
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
"Slaad Culture" is one heck of an odd juxtaposition.
Linguistically or conceptually?
Because conceptually, every sapient species will have a culture of some sort, no matter how alien we may find it. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 19 May 2020 : 08:57:27
"Slaad Culture" is one heck of an odd juxtaposition. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 17 May 2020 : 12:06:51
For context, I have a demiplane, Eridu, which has existed for about ten thousand subjective years. During that time, it has grown from a small demiplane seed into a vast realm the size of Great Britain.
It was initially home to a few humans sworn to live a hunter-gatherer existence in a Garden of Eden like place. An Elder Treant and various fey creatures were empowered to prevent 'civilization' of the demiplane, so that it would remain a Garden of Eden like place, but otherwise not interfere with the humans.
Over thousands of years, the humans eventually evolved other faiths, mores and cultural standards than the druidic teachings that established their small idyllic society. They started farming and herding, eventually giving rise to many societies of might and magic. But nature itself opposed human civilization, with various flora and fauna hostile to farming, cities and civilized folk arising from the demiplane itself.
Finally, after many millennia of growth punctuated by disasters, some bright scholar discovered that the dreams of the fey had the power to create more of them, as well as manifest effects dangerous to human civilization. A genocidal war was launched against the fey.
Humans were killing fey faster than new ones were being created by the feedback loop embedded in the demiplane from the creation. Grandfather Tree, the Elder Treant entrusted with protecting nature, released something from his darkest nightmares. He released all the fungal spores, bacteria and viruses that nature could create. Dozens, scores, hundreds of deadly plagues rampaged among the humans of Eridu. Their armies were reaped like chaff, their cities filled with dead and their proud civilizations fell.
But the diseases could not be controlled or contained. Although they started out affecting only humans, some eventually mutated, to cross over to animals, fey or even plants. New beings came into existence, twisted and mutated. Grandfather Tree had unleashed primal Chaos with his actions, which eventually caused parts of Ever-Changing Limbo to leak into the demiplane.
In the modern day, about twenty centuries after the fall of human civilization on Eridu, the land is amazingly fertile, but what grows is a crazy mixture of natural flora, fey influence and twisted Chaos. A very few descendants of the 'humans' survive, but only those mutated far enough from baseline humanity to be immune to most diseases affecting humanity have a chance to live in the spore-laden, plague-infested realm of Eridu.
There are still fey, but many of them are subject to diseases that have evolved to prey on them, or have been twisted by Chaos. And with planar leakage from Limbo, a solitary blue slaad eventually entered Eridu. Over the centuries, infecting humanoid fey, this one slaad has accidentally become the progenitor of a race of slaad who've never seen Limbo.
Red, blue and green slaad were born from humanoid fey hosts over centuries. The green slaad can evolve into grays and so long have the slaad been in Eridu that they even have home-grown death slaad, as well as at least one white slaad*, as the PCs encountered such a being on the Prime Material Plane, where the portal to the demiplane of Eridu was located.
Now, one PC, along with two companions, will travel to Eridu through dreams, trying to find out more about diseases that the slaad carried with them through the portal, and which now infect the PCs and their allies.**
What I'm conaidering, is the dream-version of Eridu going to be a residue of the human civilizations which once flourished there, influenced by the fey? Or will slaad dreams impinge pn it?
*Considering the account of one death slaad, it's possible that the 'five Masters who serve Grandfather Tree' might be either other whites or perhaps even Black Slaad.
**I'm using GURPS rules, so while it is possible to magically cure diseases, there is a sizable penalty to do so if the healer doesn't know what ails the patient. Given that everyone who came into contact with the various spores, bacteria and viruses from the unnatural flora growing through the portal might be infected with literally dozens of diseases, their curative spells are not enough to stop the infection unless they gain more data. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 17 May 2020 : 11:24:30
I think anything formed directly from the energies of the outer planes should not technically count as being a living creature so they don't need to eat, sleep, procreate, breathe, etc.
Slaad (some of them) parasitise a host to procreate, therefore they are living creatures and should eat, breathe, recuperate (perhaps sleep, perhaps cocoon themselves, or something really weird as you'd expect for a limbo creature) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 17 May 2020 : 11:18:40
Do scribes think slaad should sleep?
And if they sleep, do they dream? |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 16 May 2020 : 20:21:47
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Lemures and Manes are produced from larvae. They then advance through the devil / demon hierarchy. I believe that's still the case. That's why night hags do such a brisk business in larvae. Larvae are somehow produced form souls. That being said, there's other methods too, as we know that some demons/devils are just spontaneously created from the souls of the damned, etc..
-I didn't realize there was anything beneath them, but it doesn't really change much. Don't want to get too off topic here, maybe another thread is worth it if we want to think about this more deeply, but Demons, Devils, Celestials, probably Elementals, and probably Fey seem to manifest out of nothing from some combination of souls (incarnum?) and the power of specific planes. Not sure about Modron, Inevitables, Yugoloth, and I can't think of other "plane-centric creatures". Slaadi generally speaking have always been the "plane-centric creature" for Limbo, but they're so different. Could be that it's because they're not actually native like those other creatures to Limbo, or it could be because it's Limbo and the first rule of Limbo is there are no rules in Limbo. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 May 2020 : 13:23:49
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just to note though, in those instances its usually and outer planar entity mating with something that has a soul/spirit. In what's being described, this is more of outer planar on outer planar.
-That's what I meant. Demons, Devils, we know that they are capable of sex because various spawn exist that has varying degrees and potency of Demon/Devil blood. Lemures are somehow created in the Nine Hells; Manes are somehow created in the Abyss. Devils and Demons don't engage in sex as a means to procreate the race, to create Lemures and Manes; they engage in sex in order to torture or corrupt or whatever else. Slaadi reproduction is tied to Limbo and the Spawning Stone, but it clearly has some kind of physical aspect, be it implanting hosts that become Slaad with eggs, or bringing fertilized eggs to the stone, or whatever hypothesis. Their means to reproduce seems oddly different from other planar creatures, which kind of manifest from simply the power of the energies from the plane. I think this lends evidence to the idea that Slaad are not "natural" to Limbo.
Lemures and Manes are produced from larvae. They then advance through the devil / demon hierarchy. I believe that's still the case. That's why night hags do such a brisk business in larvae. Larvae are somehow produced form souls. That being said, there's other methods too, as we know that some demons/devils are just spontaneously created from the souls of the damned, etc.. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 May 2020 : 11:53:02
My campaigns are set in the 14th century DR, so anything about the distant future is irrelevant to them. So 4e and 5e sources are not relevant to my purposes.
I'm primarily interested in presenting the slaad the way that Charlie Stross originally wrote them, as well as incorporating the excellent Planescape materials. Anything 3e that doesn't conflict with these can stay*, but any 4e and 5e retcons are not for me.
The Erevis Cale trilogy is canon in my games, as it was written before WotC decided to start publishing a different setting under the name Forgotten Realms. So anything revealed about slaad culture there, I'll try to work in.
I think the Planescape materials are pretty clear in presenting the procreation by means of forcible humanoid infection by the red and blue slaad, which occasionally yields green slaad. The sources are also clear in presenting slaad coming to the Spawning Stone at certain times to breed by fertilizing eggs.
I've decided that these are two separate methods of procreation. The first is not sexual reproduction, but because of the need for humanoid hosts, primarily happens in connection with slaad invading other territories, such as Outland towns or Prime Worlds. On Limbo, it can only happen in connection with attacking planewalkers or warring with gitzerai, neither of which I take to be frequent enough to support slaad population on Limbo. Hence the need for an alternate method of breeding.
The Spawning Stone breeding is sexual, with slaad being specifically noted as hermaproditic, but I note that the description implies that some lay the eggs and others fertilize them. That is, the slaad do not engage in intercourse for procreative purposes, they fertilize eggs externally.
This means that some slaad would be born without the need for humanoid hosts, i.e. those born from breeding at the Spawning Stone. So, what happens with green or gray slaad born directly from the Spawning Stone? That is, do they have an ability to polymorph to a host form?
I'm going to decide that their initial 'host form' is a composite from the host forms of their 'parents', but that such slaad, with study, can learn to take multiple forms, as with full-blown Polymorph Self into humanoid forms.
*I'm fine with having more Death Slaad than the four mentioned by Stross exist. Also, the White and Black Slaad fit the spirit of the original Fiend Folio writeup, given that the Death Slaad are explicitly defined as 'Lesser Masters' in it and a reference is made to slaad 'Masters', without defining them further. It's entirely possible to interpret the 'Masters' as being seperate from the named Slaad Lords. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 16 May 2020 : 01:33:12
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just to note though, in those instances its usually and outer planar entity mating with something that has a soul/spirit. In what's being described, this is more of outer planar on outer planar.
-That's what I meant. Demons, Devils, we know that they are capable of sex because various spawn exist that has varying degrees and potency of Demon/Devil blood. Lemures are somehow created in the Nine Hells; Manes are somehow created in the Abyss. Devils and Demons don't engage in sex as a means to procreate the race, to create Lemures and Manes; they engage in sex in order to torture or corrupt or whatever else. Slaadi reproduction is tied to Limbo and the Spawning Stone, but it clearly has some kind of physical aspect, be it implanting hosts that become Slaad with eggs, or bringing fertilized eggs to the stone, or whatever hypothesis. Their means to reproduce seems oddly different from other planar creatures, which kind of manifest from simply the power of the energies from the plane. I think this lends evidence to the idea that Slaad are not "natural" to Limbo. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 May 2020 : 19:18:13
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also, this resource has the slaadi coming to the spawning stone in a somewhat orderly fashion by color/type, and it DOES have them breeding while there. So, they aren't asexual necessarily. The question is … what does breeding MEAN … DOES it mean bumping nasties? Does it mean that the spawning stone produces eggs and they just fertilize them? Do they instead fertilize something like a larvae there? Does it mean something else entirely, such as a ritual that consumes a host's soul performed by two or more slaadi and converts it into a "slaadi soul"? Also of interest is there's a note that more than one parent can fertilize an egg, such that a slaadi can have numerous parents. Sometimes this breeding produces "mutant" versions of slaadi which may get secreted away.
-At the start of this, I was going to say that the entire idea of Slaad as "sexual creatures" that gotta do it to reproduce felt weird, being planar creatures, but at the same time, Demon and Devil spawn exist, so it clearly is something that other planar creatures do, so why not Slaad? Neither Demons nor Devils rely on sexual reproduction, and only seem to engage in it as means to some other kind of end. At the same time, though, Demons and Devils seem to be physical incarnations of the evil of their respective planes, whereas Slaadi are influences by Chaos, but are not necessarily creatures created by the chaos of the plane itself.
Just to note though, in those instances its usually and outer planar entity mating with something that has a soul/spirit. In what's being described, this is more of outer planar on outer planar.
Also, this has gotten me looking more at how Slaad creation was done across editions, and there's definitely some shift.
In first edition, it looks to be that red slaadi were the ones who created from mortals. How the others were created was undocumented, but slain greens returned as blues then after a year changed to green.
In second edition, it appears much the same.
In third edition though, that's when we "find out" that if an arcane person is affected, they become green slaad, and that reds create blues via egg implant and blues create reds via disease. It also notes that greens become greys and that greys eventually may become death slaadi. This matches 5th edition.
In 4th edition, all 4 lesser slaadi reproduce via implantation and the term "chaos phage" is determined to be a disease that's related to implantation by claw. The type born from any slaad is entirely random (so a red slaad's implantation could result in a gray slaad). This in my view is the way oversimplified version.
So, again, in 5th edition, looks like they revert back to the 3rd edition idea and revisit the idea of the "spawning stone".
So, if one wanted to embrace all of the lore it would be next to impossible. But, its worth looking at the 2e lore to see what you'd have to change to bring it at least close to true across editions.
The statement in Tales from the infinite staircase is
The hermaphroditic slaadi mate at the stone in their turn, fertilizing each other's internal egg sacs. When they leave [or, more appropriately, when the next slaadi group in the cycle wrests the Spawning Stone away from them], they carry around these fertilized eggs for later implantation into host bodies
So, since only reds implant in 5e, it might be that slaadi can reproduce at the spawning stone, with multiple mates able to fertilize a single egg outside the body. This matches to how real frogs produce eggs in water that are fertilized outside the body and grow into tadpoles. Thus, the spawning stone might have a huge pond surrounding it with tadpoles growing. There's also "mutated" slaadi "originals" that are at the spawning stone and chained up by the slaad lords. Perhaps they produce the eggs for spawning, and that's why they're kept around. In other words, red/blue/green/grey slaadi maybe don't produce eggs and can only fertilize, but in doing so they're likely to produce a red/blue/green slaadi (since greys are an advancement of green, I'd have them produce green offspring). I'd probably still make this more ritualistic of some sort, requiring a mortal soul of some sort (even a lowly goblin) in order for the egg to fertilize... thus the spawning stone may be covered in dead bodies of sacrificed victims whose souls were used to fertilize an egg. Alternatively, this "soul" component might have to be a fellow outer planar entity (i.e. a devil, a demon, a yugoloth, an angel, etc...), which would make spawning more dangerous, but interesting... Occasionally, this "spawning" creates a "true" slaadi child that can produce eggs, and said being is typically left at the spawning stone (though some slaadi may attempt to take their true slaadi child away so that they can privately produce children outside of the eyesight of their masters).
Oh, and IF I did go with this theory, I'd break away from the concept that the slaadi go to the spawning stone by type and hold it. I'd have any kind of slaadi going there, whenever they have the appropriate resources and want to procreate. If the "true" slaadi are the ones producing all the eggs and not the red/blue/green/gray, then there may be a limited supply of eggs and competition of some sort to be ALLOWED to fertilize an egg. Maybe even the slaad lords use this as another control point to gain fealty or treasure. This might explain even more why if someone birthed a "true" slaad that they might want to secret them away.... so that they can mate without having to give their masters their payment OR pimping out the "true" slaad's eggs to others at a reduced price (possibly even to non-slaad's such as a wizard who wants to experiment). |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 15 May 2020 : 17:45:21
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also, this resource has the slaadi coming to the spawning stone in a somewhat orderly fashion by color/type, and it DOES have them breeding while there. So, they aren't asexual necessarily. The question is … what does breeding MEAN … DOES it mean bumping nasties? Does it mean that the spawning stone produces eggs and they just fertilize them? Do they instead fertilize something like a larvae there? Does it mean something else entirely, such as a ritual that consumes a host's soul performed by two or more slaadi and converts it into a "slaadi soul"? Also of interest is there's a note that more than one parent can fertilize an egg, such that a slaadi can have numerous parents. Sometimes this breeding produces "mutant" versions of slaadi which may get secreted away.
-At the start of this, I was going to say that the entire idea of Slaad as "sexual creatures" that gotta do it to reproduce felt weird, being planar creatures, but at the same time, Demon and Devil spawn exist, so it clearly is something that other planar creatures do, so why not Slaad? Neither Demons nor Devils rely on sexual reproduction, and only seem to engage in it as means to some other kind of end. At the same time, though, Demons and Devils seem to be physical incarnations of the evil of their respective planes, whereas Slaadi are influences by Chaos, but are not necessarily creatures created by the chaos of the plane itself. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 May 2020 : 16:30:37
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The Planes of Chaos boxed set (which has the general Planescape lore on the slaad and Limbo) and the Tales from the Infinite Staircase, which features secrets about the Spawning Stone.
Ok, I hadn't read either of those, let me go look at that as well. Maybe we can work more into this theory.
Hmm, I don't see anything in Planes of Chaos, but the Tales from the Infinite Staircase has some interesting stuff. Seems like in some ways I may have been going down exactly the right path. So, Ygorl AND Ssendam, they modified the Spawning Stone (so Primus still invents it to put control gems in chaos creatures), and they created the modern forms of Slaadi (they "limited the slaadi race to the handful of forms that they now take"). However, deep within the spawning stone are OTHER forms of slaadi which the slaad lords don't allow to get out. PERSONALLY, I would relate this back to Ygorl and Ssendam being batrachi and knowing some lore for creature creation as one of the creator races.
Also, this resource has the slaadi coming to the spawning stone in a somewhat orderly fashion by color/type, and it DOES have them breeding while there. So, they aren't asexual necessarily. The question is … what does breeding MEAN … DOES it mean bumping nasties? Does it mean that the spawning stone produces eggs and they just fertilize them? Do they instead fertilize something like a larvae there? Does it mean something else entirely, such as a ritual that consumes a host's soul performed by two or more slaadi and converts it into a "slaadi soul"? Also of interest is there's a note that more than one parent can fertilize an egg, such that a slaadi can have numerous parents. Sometimes this breeding produces "mutant" versions of slaadi which may get secreted away.
To note though, all of this lore comes from an edition that gets away from the core concepts that blue slaadi procreate via disease, that green slaadi are created from arcane individuals. Only the red ones inserted seed pellets. So, there's no real rules for how blue and green ones come about in this edition. Towards that end, it might be worth house ruling that BORN slaadi (i.e. those converted from a mortal host) CAN mate with other slaadi of their own type. However, once they "die" and are respawned back through the spawning stone onto Limbo, maybe they lose this ability? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 May 2020 : 16:02:41
The Planes of Chaos boxed set (which has the general Planescape lore on the slaad and Limbo) and the Tales from the Infinite Staircase, which features secrets about the Spawning Stone. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 May 2020 : 15:49:50
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Canonically, red, blue, green and gray slaadi all come to the Spawning Stone when they sense that it is time to breed and each subrace comes to a designated area where they sexually fertilize eggs.
So, while slaad that die elsewhere might also emerge from it, there is no way to read the lore about the Spawning Stone in a way that doesn't involve new slaadi being born from sexual reproduction.
Where's that from canonically? I ask because this lore seems to be spread all over the place about the spawning stone (the original fiend folio, dragon #221, the 5e lore, etc...), but nothing I'm seeing shows them fertilizing eggs, except some WIKI entries with no citations (which isn't canon). Maybe there's another interpretation that can be made from whatever you're reading. 4e lore even tries to mix chaos phage and implanting of eggs as related, but other lore has them definitely different. Honestly, until this topic came up, I hadn't recalled "the spawning stone" at all, and I've been looking through material trying to piece together something cohesive out of fun. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 May 2020 : 15:27:27
Canonically, red, blue, green and gray slaadi all come to the Spawning Stone when they sense that it is time to breed and each subrace comes to a designated area where they sexually fertilize eggs.
So, while slaad that die elsewhere might also emerge from it, there is no way to read the lore about the Spawning Stone in a way that doesn't involve new slaadi being born from sexual reproduction. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 May 2020 : 15:07:06
Hmmm, and in the above on the Pandemonium Stone... it just might be interesting if Bazim-Gorag had actually worked with Imix in the creation of the Pandemonium Stone, somehow tying the creation OF the Pandemonium Stone to Lopango "the Land of Fire" and Nexal/The House of Tezca and maybe even the northern deserts in Anchorome (maybe in the creation and eruption of numerous volcanos there and the death of most who lived there). Maybe this destroyed many of the temples to Ramenos as well, and was a betrayal by Bazim-Gorag and Imix against Ssendam and Ramenos. It could have also involved Imix involving "the elder elemental eye"/Tharizdun… and perhaps THIS link is what drives Ssendam mad. In fact, all of this concept COULD fit with the ideas of the Batrachi releasing some captured primordials of power just prior to the tearfall/splitting of the worlds. If Tharizdun was potentially about to be released upon Toril, I could see Ao going to some extremes. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 May 2020 : 14:36:39
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The problem with the interpretation that the eggs need to be fertilized before being implanted is that only red slaad inject eggs into humanoids, but red, blue, green and gray slaad are described at coming to the Spawning Stone to breed.
It really seems that the sexual breeding that happens in the energies of the Spawning Stone and the parasitical and disease procreation of red and blue slaad are two distinct and different things.
So, as I see it, there's possibly 3 things that happen at the spawning stone, and it CAN be all 3. In fact, I would recommend all 3 being true. As well, there is the Pandemonium Stone, which similarly draws Slaadi, but possibly for other reasons.
1) New slaadi are spawned from the stone directly with a control gem in place. This is directly from canon in 5e lore now, below from 5e MM entry on slaadi
As a slaad emerges from the Spawning Stone, the stone magically implants a fragment of itself in the slaad's brain. This fragment takes the form of a magic gem roughly the size and shape of a human child's fist. The gem is the same color as the slaad. Another creature can use magic to draw forth a slaad's gem and use it to subjugate the slaad. The salad must obey whoever possesses its gem. If a slaad's gem is destroyed, the slaad can no longer be controlled in this way.
POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION: Slaadi that are summoned via magic off plane and then "die" are not killed, but rather return to their home plane to "respawn". They respawn through the spawning stone. Those that die on their home plane die a perma-death. The control gem aspect of all this and the somewhat "fixed" nature of slaadi as red or blue slaadi was a result of Primus creating the spawning stones and then attempting to "harvest" the chaotic creations of Limbo in order to make an army under his control..... and control gems definitely speak to the idea of law and not chaos. HOW this redirection of respawning slaadi is done, that would be a question for another day, but theoretically Primus found a way to force this mechanism.
2) Red Slaadi that come to the spawning stone are instilled with eggs for creating slaadi by killing their mortal host and somehow harvesting some portion of their soul/spirit. In doing so though, a control gem is placed within them (this part is canon that "born" slaadi get a control gem upon visiting the spawning stone).
POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION: Ygorl saw the mechanism that Primus had setup. Ygorl was a batrachi lord who infused himself with negative energy (possibly becoming one of the first death slaadi). Primus was familiar with "changing" amphibian type creatures, being a member of the creator races. Ygorl wanted to control an army of slaadi, and so he infused a new feature into the spawning stone and took control of the spawning stone from Primus. This new feature effectively gave slaadi the ability to procreate, but the method of procreation was different for the two types (red or blue). He also established the creation of NEW types of slaadi as a new "template", the green slaadi, with the help of a fellow batrachi lord, Bazim-Gorag, the Firebringer. These two brought an army of firenewt shamans from the Lopango Jungles to the spawning stone, who were all then "sacrificed" by having a red slaadi place an egg in them. The new slaadi that was born was a green slaadi with the ability to hurl fire. All of them were instilled with control gems, and Ygorl became the new leader of the Slaadi as one of the first Slaadi Lords.
3) Blue Slaadi that come to the spawning stone have the bone hooks on the back of their hands re-infected with the Chaos Phage. This disease is for creating slaadi by killing their mortal host and somehow harvesting some portion of their soul/spirit. Ygorl created this alternate method of procreation specific to blue slaadi for use against creatures that might not have bodies that are suitable for growing an egg (for instance, a humanoid whose "body" is largely composed of elemental energies might be able to reject/destroy an egg, or one which regenerates quickly might be able to survive the tadpole even as it tries to eat its way out). In doing so though, a control gem is placed within them (this part is canon that "born" slaadi get a control gem upon visiting the spawning stone).
POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION: same as #2 above, just an alternate form for a different version of slaadi, and possibly just to give an alternate means in case a counter was found for the first method.
4) Pandemonium Stone Bazim-Gorag saw what Ygorl was doing by modifying the spawning stone. Bazim-Gorag, the Firebringer, wanted to do something similar, BUT he didn't want to fall under Ygorl's command. Bazim-Gorag went into the elemental chaos with a stolen piece of the spawning stone after destroying his own control gem that was placed within him. He exposed this piece of the spawning stone to the burning energies of fire, burning away the normal nature of the spawning stone and its ties to Ygorl. Calling upon Ramenos' hunger in a ritual of dream magic, he filled it with the energies of the elemental chaos... fire, lightning, wind, etc... Bazim-Gorag then pulled these energies into himself, such that he was transformed himself into an "ascended batrachi", but he had NOT been a death slaadi and thus is not a "Slaadi Lord". Unfortunately, SOMETHING happened as a result of the creation of the Pandemonium Stone that affected Ramenos. Some believe that the Slaadi Lord, Ssendam the Lord of Madness, was also working to aid Bazim-Gorag so that he would not fall under Ygorl's control as well. The strain drove Ssendam mad and instilled his intellect within a golden idol of Ramenos but destroyed Ssendam's normal body (this is why Ssendam sometimes appears as a golden Slaad).
The power of the pandemonium stone instills the power of change into slaadi. Some say that red and blue slaadi who find the proper ritual of sacrifice can change themselves into green slaadi at the Pandemonium stone. In particular, green, gray, and death slaadi are drawn to the pandemonium stone, as bathing in its energy SOMEHOW allows them to advance to newer, more advanced forms of slaadi. Part of this is because the pandemonium stone has some effect on the control gems within them, weakening their ability to keep slaadi under control and enabling them to "think more freely/clearly". However, some say that this comes at a price, and sacrifice is that price. Its said that night hags often frequent the Pandemonium Stone to sell larvae, soulgems, and even captured phylacteries of beings such as liches, death knights, control circlets of skeleton warriors, etc... (potential death slaadi seem particularly interested in the latter). |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 15 May 2020 : 00:35:06
Of course, the Spawning Stone might not exist in the Limbo of the Forgotten Realms ... I have to ping Ed about the massive Limbo article he penned as a follow-up to his Nine Hells work that Dragon Magazine never ended up publishing.
-- George Krashos |
| Icelander |
Posted - 14 May 2020 : 21:55:30
The problem with the interpretation that the eggs need to be fertilized before being implanted is that only red slaad inject eggs into humanoids, but red, blue, green and gray slaad are described at coming to the Spawning Stone to breed.
It really seems that the sexual breeding that happens in the energies of the Spawning Stone and the parasitical and disease procreation of red and blue slaad are two distinct and different things. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 14 May 2020 : 21:19:50
Seems like a terrible reproductive cycle to me.
One slaad escapes to the material plane with a number of fertile eggs (thanks to the stone). He creates 30 or so slaadi before he is killed but the infestation of slaadi dies out shortly after him because his "offspring" are infertile until they return to limbo.
Seems much more plausible that the stone is part of what the batrachi used to make themselves slaadi. Mayhaps they are nephilim now after such long exposure to the energies of limbo, but using the stone they can have slaadi offspring or become a slaad themselves. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 14 May 2020 : 20:55:32
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Right, I've read all the slaad lore I could find in the old Planescape materials and now I can't figure out how to reconcile the mechanics of slaad procreation given in their Monster Manual or Compendium with the lore on the Spawning Stone.
If slaad are spawned from humanoid hosts, which is a pretty fundamental part of how they work, what is the purpose of the Spawning Stone?
Allegedly, slaad eggs are fertilized at the Spawning Stone and are infertile anywhere else, but red and blue slaad procreate by infecting humanoids with parasites or a disease, so don't need fertilization by anyone...
Maybe they're infertile, until exposed to the energies of the Spawning Stone, which makes them fertile for a short time?
From what I read, that seemed like it to me. The eggs get fertilized at the stone and then a slaad injects them into a host to create a new slaad (almost like a Xenomorph in Alien). Only, instead of the little nipper popping out of the host, it transforms the host into the new slaad. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 May 2020 : 19:52:03
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Right, I've read all the slaad lore I could find in the old Planescape materials and now I can't figure out how to reconcile the mechanics of slaad procreation given in their Monster Manual or Compendium with the lore on the Spawning Stone.
If slaad are spawned from humanoid hosts, which is a pretty fundamental part of how they work, what is the purpose of the Spawning Stone?
Allegedly, slaad eggs are fertilized at the Spawning Stone and are infertile anywhere else, but red and blue slaad procreate by infecting humanoids with parasites or a disease, so don't need fertilization by anyone...
Maybe they're infertile, until exposed to the energies of the Spawning Stone, which makes them fertile for a short time? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 May 2020 : 17:26:43
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Right, I've read all the slaad lore I could find in the old Planescape materials and now I can't figure out how to reconcile the mechanics of slaad procreation given in their Monster Manual or Compendium with the lore on the Spawning Stone.
If slaad are spawned from humanoid hosts, which is a pretty fundamental part of how they work, what is the purpose of the Spawning Stone?
Allegedly, slaad eggs are fertilized at the Spawning Stone and are infertile anywhere else, but red and blue slaad procreate by infecting humanoids with parasites or a disease, so don't need fertilization by anyone...
As an option, summoned Slaad that are killed (via say a conjuration spell) might "reform" in Limbo via the spawning stone with a control gem in place. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 14 May 2020 : 14:59:36
Right, I've read all the slaad lore I could find in the old Planescape materials and now I can't figure out how to reconcile the mechanics of slaad procreation given in their Monster Manual or Compendium with the lore on the Spawning Stone.
If slaad are spawned from humanoid hosts, which is a pretty fundamental part of how they work, what is the purpose of the Spawning Stone?
Allegedly, slaad eggs are fertilized at the Spawning Stone and are infertile anywhere else, but red and blue slaad procreate by infecting humanoids with parasites or a disease, so don't need fertilization by anyone... |
| Icelander |
Posted - 14 May 2020 : 14:08:02
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Their forms might be stable because they were something else that were transformed by the Plane of Limbo - creating the slaad as we know them today.
-- George Krashos
Entirely possible. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 14 May 2020 : 12:34:24
Their forms might be stable because they were something else that were transformed by the Plane of Limbo - creating the slaad as we know them today.
-- George Krashos |
| Icelander |
Posted - 14 May 2020 : 11:52:24
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Xanxost shared some potentially valuable information on the Slaad culinary preferences. 
Where can I find that?
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Perhaps not born out of, adapted to (especially if they are descendants of Batrachi).
Why ironic? Perhaps having at least a streak of non-Chaoic-ness prevents them from being dragged by the chaos until they are indistinguishable from the stuff of Limbo.
That's how it seems to work for the Githerai, after all.
I agree. Pure Chaos wouldn't make individual creatures unless they had something to stabilize their forms. I consider slaad beings strongly shaped by Chaos, but they are still persons with their own motivations, goals, culture and the like. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 13 May 2020 : 23:01:09
Xanxost shared some potentially valuable information on the Slaad culinary preferences.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-It's ironic that a race that was literally born out of chaos has such a regimented, structured caste system.
Perhaps not born out of, adapted to (especially if they are descendants of Batrachi).
Why ironic? Perhaps having at least a streak of non-Chaoic-ness prevents them from being dragged by the chaos until they are indistinguishable from the stuff of Limbo.
That's how it seems to work for the Githerai, after all.
|
| PattPlays |
Posted - 13 May 2020 : 21:45:10
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It was indeed in GHotR that a being (WHO IS DESCRIBED AS BEING A SLAAD AND an ascended Batrachi Lord AND a Primordial) says that the Slaad and the batrachi aren't related. That being being Bazim-Gorag, the Firebringer. That being said, I trust his statements as much as I trust …. well, maybe a little more than a Leiran. He would lie to get what he wants. He's also tied to something called the pandemonium stone, and so are slaadi. Then 5e brings in a concept of the "Spawning Stone" created by Primus as a stone to bring law and order to Limbo, but it became corrupted. Both the Pandemonium Stone and the Spawning Stone attract slaadi. It would almost beg one to try and combine the two, but perhaps that's NOT the best way to use it. The Green Spellcasting Slaadi have strong ties to fire (they hurl it like a cantrip, and they cast fireball), and since Bazim-Gorag is ALSO tied to fire and the pandemonium stone, perhaps there is some link there.
In reading the below, snippets from different things, perhaps we can make some bullets and ferret out some more ideas for their society
1) So, the Batrachi flee to Limbo when the worlds are twinned AFTER they release several primordials. These primordials are the reason that the world gets twinned into Abeir and Toril.
2) Bazim-Gorag is an "ascended Batrachi", a Batrachi Lord, but also termed as a primordial. He was one of the beings that traveled to Limbo, and he is closely tied to "the Pandemonium Stone", which attracts slaadi.
3) The Pandemonium stone is seemingly tied to elemental energy and appears in the elemental chaos.
4) Ygorl and Ssendam are two "Slaad Lords". Ygorl is a blackened/charred skeletal, winged slaad of death/entropy and Ssendam appears as either a golden slaadi, an amoeba with a brain, or a mortal being with a black sword that stuns and is known as a power of insanity.
5) Per Dragon #221 Death Slaad CAN leave their ranks and "transform" into Slaad Lords. It should be noted that there are very few Death slaad (probably more than the original 4 mentioned to exist in 1e.. but probably should be limited to less than a few hundred).
6) Per Dragon #221 there are 2 more Slaad Lords, Chourst the Lord of Randomness and Rennbuu the Lord of Colors, and an aspiring death Slaad Sorel, future lord of Anarchy. Renbuu is noted as having the ability to change any slaad from one color type to another.
7) Slaad have a somewhat unique ability to forcibly "harvest" mortal souls and change them into outer planar entities of Chaos. I know a lot of us don't look at it this way, but someone who dies from their special methods seemingly creates the outer planar entity that is a slaadi. This possibly has something to do with the spawning stone, such that newly born slaadi are attracted to it, and when they touch it a control gem is created in their heads.
8) Per Dragon #221, Ygorl created the spawning stone. Per 5e, the orderly Primus created the spawning stone.
SUPPOSITION: Primus created the stone, and Ygorl corrupted it. Red and Blue slaadi are possibly natural fiends of Limbo, but the more powerful versions possibly were "created" by the creator race of the Batrachi from this base. The spawning stone is what puts control gems in slaadi (as control gems were possibly Primus' addition to try and add order), and this is why Primus possibly created the stone (which possibly had another name before) in order to gain control of the beings of Limbo by implanting them all with control gems. Possibly Primus intended to turn the Slaadi on the armies of the Abyss? But possibly the ability to "spawn new slaadi" requires bathing in the energies of the spawning stone. Slaadi killed on other planes "respawn" from the spawning stone rather than dying, but as a lesser version of slaadi. Formerly Green Slaadi who wish to regain their spellcasting abilities must find the pandemonium stone and bathe in its elemental energies to transform themselves. Possibly, Ygorl added the ability to corrupt mortal spirits and respawn slaadi spirits but "lessened" as a feature of entropy that takes energy from the now lesser "fiend" and imbuing said energy into himself. Red Slaad who die are fully consumed souls for Ygorl, but their energy is "spread" by the spawning stone so as to pervert other mortal spirits/souls or somesuch mechanic.
Supposition: Bazim-Gorag is also a "Slaad Lord", and this is what the Batrachi became was some powerful entities with ties to the slaadi as their rulers (or perhaps they became the first Death Slaadi). Perhaps these beings had ties to entities of the Far Realm. Perhaps some other entities of Maztica are ALSO slaadi lords (Zaltec could seemingly fit).
Supposition: Ramenos transformed the Batrachi into the first death slaad and imbued them with the knowledge of how to turn themselves into powerful "primordial" type entities. He did this by creating the Pademonium Stone, which drew on the elemental chaos, but doing so required much from him in the form of dream magic. Whether this was something he anticipated, or a result due to some other entities involvement, is little known. It is said that the power of the pandemonium stone required both negative energy and fire energy as well, and that the first death slaad were something like suel liches, surrounded by black flame and requiring the harvesting of souls in order to maintain their existence. Perhaps the Pandemonium stone is used to convert captured souls to a usable energy form for death slaad, and perhaps death slaad trade with night hags for larvae in a way like liches.
From GHotR with Bazim-Gorag apparently speaking to someone who seemingly might have some intimate knowledge of Kossuth/Thay/Zulkirs
Understand, Meat, that I am quite familiar with your feeble kind. My people ruled the whole of Merrouroboros while your ancestors cowered in caves and banged rocks together to create fire. My own domain was vast, stretching from the depths of the Black Sea in the north to the fiery peaks of Lopango in the south. You know not these lands because the fool Zhoukoudien threw our empire away in an imprudent conflict with the Jotunbrud.
When the seven-turn winter later blanketed our lands with ice, I retreated with many of my kind to the otherworldly realm of Limbo, where we established a kingdom that your sages call the Supreme Throne. It was there that our race was once again transformed by Ramenos to serve his divine purpose. Many of your ignorant kind mistakenly confuse my people with the slaad, who make their home on the same plane. In fact, I am a batrachi lord—far more powerful than any common fiend.
But let us return to the task at hand. The agenda of your Lord Kossuth is not so different from my own. Fire burns in both our hearts, and together we can scatter the armies of your enemies and sow chaos throughout the land. Speak now the rite of unbinding, and you can command power greater than that of any pathetic zulkir. All shall bow before the Order of the Black Flame and tremble before the fury of the Firebringer.
From 4e FRCG on Pandemonium Stone and on Bazim-Gorag
Bazim-Gorag: The Lord of the Pandemonium Stone (see the sidebar) is an ascended batrachi dedicated to pure chaos. He is chance incarnate, invoked by the powerless, the gamblers, and anyone who has lost hope in anything but an impossible twist of fate.
THE PANDEMONIUM STONE
The Pandemonium Stone isn’t a permanent feature of the Elemental Chaos. This rough spire of various materials, ever-changing and immense, features carvings that come alive with elemental forces, undulate, then die down again. The massive stone manifests at random in place and time. When it appears, the spire calls to the slaads, and they gather to bathe in its energy. The greatest of them, including Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer, eventually come to the Pandemonium Stone if the pinnacle stays long enough in one place. Tracing the movements of the stone, if possible, is likely the easiest way to find and attack the great slaad.
Stories differ as to what the stone is. Some suggest that it is a sleeping and immensely powerful slaad lord. Others speculate that it’s a batrachi artifact, and that studying it could prove decisively whether slaads descend from that amphibious progenitor race.
Alignment: Chaotic evil. Connections: None. Primary Resident: Bazim-Gorag (primordial).
From the 5e monster manual on the "spawning Stone" and "control gems" in salad
As a slaad emerges from the Spawning Stone, the stone magically implants a fragment of itself in the slaad's brain. This fragment takes the form of a magic gem roughly the size and shape of a human child's fist. The gem is the same color as the slaad. Another creature can use magic to draw forth a slaad's gem and use it to subjugate the slaad. The slaad must obey whoever possesses its gem. If a slaad's gem is destroyed, the slaad can no longer be controlled in this way.
A slaad born from something other than the Spawning Stone has no gem in its brain, but it gains one if it ever comes into contact with the Spawning Stone. Slaadi on Limbo are attracted to the Spawning Stone, so most end up with a gem. A slaad with a control gem in its brain has the following additional trait.
Control Gem. Implanted in the slaad's brain is a magic control gem. The slaad must obey whoever possesses the gem and is immune to being charmed while so controlled.
You're melting my brain with this lore. Megapost, and I have now updated my headcanon on a few things.. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 May 2020 : 18:59:27
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, I've always been a proponent of the idea that it takes some "extra" magic to make one fertile when shapechanged, and that the mere act of shapechanging makes one infertile temporarily (this house rule to prevent all manner of weirdness... such as a human birthing a minotaur, etc... or races forcibly procreating by transforming human females into a being like themselves).
That kind of weirdness has been a part of shapechanging magic from its mythological roots and is clearly present in D&D. See half-[aything] templates.
You mistake my meaning. I mean something like a woman shape changes into a minotaur, mates with a minotaur, won't get pregnant and when she changes back have a minotaur child. The act of changing back will likely purge any remnants they may have had as they no longer have the reproductive organs to carry the creature to term. Now, a woman mating with a minotaur (if somehow they become magically compatible) might have a "half-minotaur" child.
With certain specific instances there might also be the child born of mixed unions while in transformed shapes (the classic trope is the dragon taking humanoid form), but this may be a special case to dragons themselves to produce half dragons.
Now, I could see green and grey slaad that shapechange and experiment sexually. Some may even have memories of a former life and a former love, and they may even try to carry on that relationship. But, I can't see them ever producing children without some kind of magical aid. |
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