| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Asharak |
Posted - 07 May 2020 : 09:36:28
About Duerra's rise to the throne
We know that Duerra has a centuries-long reign and that she has access to the divinity c. -1800.
Proposal:
Duerra ascends the throne of Underspires c. -2200
About the founding of Underspires.
We have :
- Duergars successfully rebel against illithids c.-4000 DR.
- Gracklstugh is founded in -3717 DR.
- The Deep Kingdom is founded in -3392 DR.
Proposal:
Since the journey to the Turmish is shorter than the one to the North, the foundation of the city of Dunspeirrin may be earlier after the emancipation of the duergars, perhaps c.-3850 DR, while the Kingdom of Underspires appears a little later c.-3500.
What do you think? |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Asharak |
Posted - 17 May 2020 : 08:17:58
Right now, I have this:
c. -4700 DR, duergars begin to escape their illithid masters in small groups.
c. -4680 DR, the duergars establish Underspires.
c. -4580 DR, duergars found a city, since forgotten, in the Underdark in the vicinity of Moonsea. These duergars will ally with drows to perpetrate the Dark Court Slaughter.
-4400 DR, Dark Court Slaughter
c. -4000 DR: A great rebellion shakes Oryndoll when the large community of duergars slaves escapes the illithids. Only the intervention of Illensine prevents the collapse of the city. |
| Asharak |
Posted - 12 May 2020 : 12:54:30
quote:
Originally posted by maransreth
Who says that the duergar are free when they participate in the slaughter?
Perhaps the drow engage illithids, who send some of the duergar slaves to assist the drow?
After its fall, Sarphil is divided into two kingdoms for drows and duergars.
There seems to be no third party involved in this division. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 12 May 2020 : 12:34:46
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkfeather
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I have cone to a similar conclusion after looking at the vilhon reach. It may be worth looking at the drow kingdom under the alaoreum that is detailed in polyhedron (ruled by a drow lich queen I think) to see if that hints at a conflict between drow and duergar in the past in that region.
Never heard about this drow kingdom before. What is its name? Can you provide some more details about it?
Undraeth.
-- George Krashos
Further details on Undraeth and Leshynmul are found in Polyhedron #140, in the write-up of Llurth Dreier.
|
| maransreth |
Posted - 12 May 2020 : 11:38:20
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
This thread has raised the very interesting conundrum - how can the duergar participate in the Dark Court Slaughter in -4400 DR when they only free themselves from servitude to Oryndoll in -4000 DR?
Looks like some duergar escaped the clutches of the illithids centuries before they all managed to break those mind shackles.
-- George Krashos
Who says that the duergar are free when they participate in the slaughter?
Perhaps the drow engage illithids, who send some of the duergar slaves to assist the drow?
|
| Hawkfeather |
Posted - 11 May 2020 : 17:23:18
[/quote]
Undraeth.
-- George Krashos
[/quote]
Thanks, Krashos! |
| Asharak |
Posted - 10 May 2020 : 15:45:33
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
It's not unthinkable. A wild alternative could be that the dark dwarves attacking myth Drannor were not duergar at all (how would an elf from cormanthyr know about a lost clan of dwarves from Shanatar. More likely is historians studying descriptions after the event decided they sound like duergar.
Sarphil is destroyed by the same alliance of drows and duergars. I think the dwarves of Sarphil were not mistaken about the nature of the duergars.
The intervention of Ilsensine to save Oryndoll, suggests a massive slave revolt, the only way to destabilize the city. So -4000 DR would correspond to the final liberation of Oryndoll's duergars slaves.
Possibly, from -5000 DR, small bands of duergars escape the vigilance of the illithids and manage to escape. Guided by Laduguer, these different groups find themselves in the same place and end up forming a colony large enough to make a deal with a drow city. Together, they cause the ruin of the Elven Court and the Fall of Sarphil. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 10 May 2020 : 14:07:48
quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
Demi-human deities p. 64
Dragon Magazine #267 : The City of Sunken Spires
Thanks.
'spires are «home to more than 120,000 duergar, nearly half of the entire population of the Steel Kingdom»? And 90000 slaves? That's big. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 May 2020 : 09:30:10
It's not unthinkable. A wild alternative could be that the dark dwarves attacking myth Drannor were not duergar at all (how would an elf from cormanthyr know about a lost clan of dwarves from Shanatar. More likely is historians studying descriptions after the event decided they sound like duergar.
Now it could be that they were escaped duergar, or it might not.
Oryndoll could have sent a duergar thrall army to work with the drow.
Or as I mentioned earlier, oryndoll could have tried to expand north, budding off a new elder brain and taking duergar thrills with them. If the elder brain and illithids die then the duergar are free without ever having rebelled. This could cause an entirely different type of duergar society In the eastern underdark. Might make for some interesting confusion finding cities filled with duergar that are so eager to serve anyone that they often destroy their master fighting for their attention and rewards. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 May 2020 : 07:47:09
This thread has raised the very interesting conundrum - how can the duergar participate in the Dark Court Slaughter in -4400 DR when they only free themselves from servitude to Oryndoll in -4000 DR?
Looks like some duergar escaped the clutches of the illithids centuries before they all managed to break those mind shackles.
-- George Krashos |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 May 2020 : 07:28:43
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkfeather
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I have cone to a similar conclusion after looking at the vilhon reach. It may be worth looking at the drow kingdom under the alaoreum that is detailed in polyhedron (ruled by a drow lich queen I think) to see if that hints at a conflict between drow and duergar in the past in that region.
Never heard about this drow kingdom before. What is its name? Can you provide some more details about it?
Undraeth.
-- George Krashos |
| Asharak |
Posted - 09 May 2020 : 19:40:37
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
about the "Campaign of Darkness" other than 4 mentions in Vilhon Reach?
Demi-human deities p. 64
Dragon Magazine #267 : The City of Sunken Spires |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 09:43:07
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I have cone to a similar conclusion after looking at the vilhon reach.
Speaking of the Duergar, is there anything about the "Campaign of Darkness" other than 4 mentions in Vilhon Reach?
Indeed, even VR doesn't give much details beyond - it was the war that ended detente with occasional skirmishes, between the (presumably shield, since they had a human-accessible city?) dwarves of the Alaoreum (capital: Ironfang city) vs. the duergars of... exactly what?
If not, time to ask Ed? |
| Hawkfeather |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 01:43:11
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I have cone to a similar conclusion after looking at the vilhon reach. It may be worth looking at the drow kingdom under the alaoreum that is detailed in polyhedron (ruled by a drow lich queen I think) to see if that hints at a conflict between drow and duergar in the past in that region.
Never heard about this drow kingdom before. What is its name? Can you provide some more details about it?
|
| Asharak |
Posted - 07 May 2020 : 19:29:51
So we have enough duergars in sufficient numbers and well organized to make a deal with the drows to attack one of the most powerful elven kingdoms of the time.
The duergars found a city in the Underdark under the Moonsea, say circa -4600 DR, just long enough to acquire the necessary power to be able to negotiate with the drows.
Underspires, much closer to Oryndoll, probably appears earlier, circa -4800 DR for example.
The intervention of Ilsensine to save Oryndoll, suggests a massive slave revolt, the only way to destabilize the city. Maybe around -5000 DR.
Let me summarize:
- the duergars free themselves from the illithids' guardianship circa 5000 DR.
- the duergars establish Underspires circa -4800
-The duergars establish a city under the Moonsea circa -4600 DR.
- the duergars attack the Elven Court, with the drows, in -4400 DR.
Plausible ? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 May 2020 : 14:22:23
Well there may have been multiple rebellions or escapes of duergar slaves over the millennia.
There is a portal in oryndoll that leads to surkh that can be used to escape. Presumably there may be other portals that lead to the moonsea underdark.
It is possible that oryndoll split and sent off some illithids to found a new colony, taking duergar slaves with them.
The illithids could have died out (a brain wasting disease), leaving the duergar free to proliferate. |
| Asharak |
Posted - 07 May 2020 : 13:10:34
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
...
Did you look at Dragon #267?
Yes, the only indication that I found there is "One of the earliest settlements founded by the duergar was Underspires."
There is also the Dark Court Massacre by the drow and duergar in -4400 DR. Sarphil is occupied at the same time by the drow and the duergar. This suggests that the duergar were freed from the illithid before -4000 DR as indicated in Lost Empires of Faerūn and The Grand History of the Realms.
I don't know whether the order indicated in these last two works is significant and reflects the order in which the Grey Dwarves founded their strongholds (northern Underdark, Orsraun Mountains, Great Glacier). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 May 2020 : 11:41:38
I have cone to a similar conclusion after looking at the vilhon reach. It may be worth looking at the drow kingdom under the alaoreum that is detailed in polyhedron (ruled by a drow lich queen I think) to see if that hints at a conflict between drow and duergar in the past in that region.
Also the duergar were abducted by illithids from oryndoll which is beneath the shining plains / giants run mountains and is quite a short distance from turmish (could be managed in a year or two in the underdark) whereas the trip to the savage frontier through the underdark could take centuries. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 07 May 2020 : 11:39:22
quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
About Duerra's rise to the throne
We know that Duerra has a centuries-long reign and that she has access to the divinity c. -1800.
Proposal:
Duerra ascends the throne of Underspires c. -2200
About the founding of Underspires.
We have :
- Duergars successfully rebel against illithids c.-4000 DR.
- Gracklstugh is founded in -3717 DR.
- The Deep Kingdom is founded in -3392 DR.
Proposal:
Since the journey to the Turmish is shorter than the one to the North, the foundation of the city of Dunspeirrin may be earlier after the emancipation of the duergars, perhaps c.-3850 DR, while the Kingdom of Underspires appears a little later c.-3500.
What do you think?
Did you look at Dragon #267? |
